[ QUOTE ]
It's also good to know that attacks can have more than one damage type. So what's usually said about smashing defense working against say a cold/smashing attack is probably true in *most* cases, but not necessarily all. Great info.
[/ QUOTE ]
To be specific, when someone says that smashing defense will (probably) work on an attack that does smashing and cold damage they are likely to be correct, because *usually* if an attack does two different types of damage, it will also be attack-typed with those two types. But this is not guaranteed.
What is guaranteed is that if an attack is *typed* cold and smashing, you will always get to use the higher of your cold and smashing defense against that attack, always. What you have to remember is that "cold and smashing typed" is not guaranteed to be the same thing as "cold and smashing damage."
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
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In I7, all critters have base tohit of 50%, and have intrinsic accuracy bonuses based on rank:
Monsters, Giant Monsters, AVs, Controller Pets: 1.5
[/ QUOTE ]
(emphasis mine)
Do you have any confirmation from a dev that pets work that way now? Iakona's Issue 7 data still shows them having the same base hit chances as players and a 1.0 multiplier.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In I7, all critters have base tohit of 50%, and have intrinsic accuracy bonuses based on rank:
Monsters, Giant Monsters, AVs, Controller Pets: 1.5
[/ QUOTE ]
(emphasis mine)
Do you have any confirmation from a dev that pets work that way now? Iakona's Issue 7 data still shows them having the same base hit chances as players and a 1.0 multiplier.
[/ QUOTE ]
This one is still a standing question for me. I'm inclined to believe Iakona's tables; the guide reflects the information originally given to me just prior to Issue 7, and it might have been slightly in error on this specific point (since the issue of what is a "critter" has some colloquial ambiguity). I've been meaning to simply put it to the test at some point, but I haven't had the chance to do so: other things keep coming up.
For that matter, I have most of the feedback from this thread incorporated into the next version, but I haven't had a chance to properly format it yet, also because of general time constraints.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Guide to Defense, Version 1.10.beta2
I've finally gotten around to incorporating many of the suggestions offered in this thread and in PMs. Its possible I've overlooked one or two, and I'm still thinking about how its all organized. I've shuffled some things around, and added better section headers, but I'm still open to suggestions in that area.
Updates from 1.7:
* Inventions (see near the end of the guide)
* There are no versions from 1.4 to 1.9. Version number synced with Issue 10 (point releases: v1.10.1, 1.10.2, etc)
* Complete rewrite of the tohit algorithm explanations
* Rewritten examples
* More general discussion of Defense, Accuracy and Tohit mechanics
* Deleted a lot of older historical information about tohit preI6
* Added reference to the tohit and defense cap tables
Defense and the Tohit system in CoH
Defense, ToHit, and Accuracy, and how they function in the tohit algorithm, are collectively among the least understood mechanisms in City of Heroes. This guide will try to explain how Defense, Tohit, Accuracy, and all elements that affect how often one thing hits another thing function, how tohit probabilities are calculated, and how the different elements in the game use these attributes.
Although specific powers numbers are mentioned throughout the Guide, this is not a Guide to specific powers values. For information on the strength of powers, consult City of Data: Powerset Quantification which is the largest and most accurate repository for powers information that I'm aware of. If your planner currently disagrees with City of Data, your planner is wrong. Note: City of Data is only guaranteed to be accurate as of the release of Issue 7. There have been changes to powers since then, but none too drastic relative to tohit mechanics.
[u]Section One: DEFINITIONS AND THE BASIC TOHIT EQUATIONS[u]
The basic tohit formula
NetToHit = Accuracy * (BaseToHit - Defense)
Terms:
NetToHit: the probability that one thing will hit another thing with an attack. If net tohit is 45%, then 45% of the time when A attacks B, A will hit B.
BaseToHit: the probability, associated with the attacker that represents the base probability that attacker has of hitting any target in general, before buffs, debuffs, and defense are taken into acount.
Defense: the ability, or power, to reduce the chances of an attacker from hitting you. Defense is normally expressed in percentage points, and is the number of percentage points that the defensive ability will reduce your chances of being hit by an attacker.
Accuracy: the effect of any buff that specifically affects the ability for a single power to hit its target. This includes accuracy enhancements, and things like inherent attack bonuses (i.e. weapon draw bonuses). Accuracy is a bit complicated: see the advanced tohit formula below.
The advanced tohit formula
The advanced tohit formula (my terminology - there isn't really a term for it) takes into account accuracy enhancements, tohit buffs, tohit debuffs, and defense debuffs. It is:
NetToHit = (InherentAttackAccuracy) * (1 + AccuracyEnhancement) * [ BaseToHit + ToHitBuffs - ToHitDebuffs - (Defense - DefenseDebuffs) ]
Terms:
Tohit buff/debuff: a power that increases or decreases your base tohit value. Certain powers (like tactics) offer tohit buffs, while others reduce the tohit of their target (i.e. radiation infection).
Defense buff/debuff: a power that increases or decreases your defense. While all attackers (players and NPCs) have a non-zero base tohit, all targets (players and NPCs) start off with zero base defense. Their net defense is the sum total of all defense buffs and defense debuffs.
InherentAttackAccuracy: the intrinsic accuracy of a specific attack. All attacks have an accuracy rating, which determines if the attack hits more often, or less often, than normal. Archery attacks have a 1.155 accuracy rating, sometimes referred to as "+15.5% accuracy" while some AoE mez attacks, like Flash, have a 0.8 accuracy rating, sometimes referred to as "-20% accuracy" (in both cases, the alternate description of the accuracy of the power is being expressed in percentages relative to 100% or 1.0).
AccuracyEnhancement: the amount of accuracy enhancement slotted into an attack. This number is only affected by accuracy enhancements. If you have +33.3% accuracy slotted, the AccuracyEnhancement is 0.333.
Common misconception about accuracy:
Some people think two different accuracy factors are additive: this is compounded by the fact that some posts by devs in the past have suggested that they are. They are not. The intrinsic accuracy of a power and accuracy enhancement slotting are *not* additive. One accuracy SO (+33.3%) and the weapon accuracy bonus of katana (+5%) do not add up to 38.3%. They multiply: 1.05 * 1.333 = 1.400. In fact, the "+XX%" notation is so misleading, that I do not generally use it, and this guide will always refer to accuracy factors using their multiplicative expression (1.333) and not their additive one (+33.3%) in mathematical calculations to avoid confusion.
As the equation above shows, tohit buffs and debuffs, and defense buffs and debuffs, are all additive. So if your base tohit is 50%, and you use or receive a 60% tohit buff, your modified tohit becomes:
0.50 + 0.60 = 1.10 = 110%
Note that this is higher than 100%: see tohit floors and tohit ceilings below.
If you have base tohit if 50%, your target has 30% defense, you have a 15% tohit buff, and you also apply a 10% defense debuff to the target, then your net tohit is:
0.50 + 0.15 - (0.30 - 0.10) = 0.65 - (0.20) = 0.45 = 45%
If you had 2-slotted accuracy (1.667 accuracy, or "+66.7%" accuracy) and you used an attack with a 1.05 accuracy rating, your overall net tohit would be:
(1.05) * (1.667) * (0.50 + 0.15 - (0.30 - 0.10)) = (1.05) * (1.667) * (0.65 - (0.20)) = 1.05 * 1.667 * 0.45 = 0.7877 = 78.77%
Floors, ceilings, and caps
There is a maximum net tohit value and a minimum tohit value honored by the CoH game engine. No power or set of powers can drive your net tohit higher than 95% or lower than 5%. In other words, there is always at least a 5% chance of hitting anything, and always at least a 5% chance of missing something.
The 5% minimum chance to hit something is referred to as the tohit floor.
The 5% minimum chance to miss something, or alternatively the 95% maximum chance to hit something, is referred to as the tohit ceiling.
It used to be thought that there was no cap on the amount of defense that a hero could achieve. It turns out there is, but it is very high and not normally applicable to most reasonable combat situations: its in the range of 200% defense at high levels (it scales upward with increasing combat level of your hero).
The full tohit formula
Taking into account accuracy, defense, buffs, debuffs, and floors and ceilings, its this:
NetToHit = Bounded[ (InherentAttackAccuracy) * (1 + AccuracyEnhancement) * Bounded[ BaseToHit + ToHitBuffs - ToHitDebuffs - (Defense - DefenseDebuffs) ] ]
Where Bounded[x] is the result of setting x to be 5% if x is lower than 5%, and 95% if x is higher than 95%. Notice that bounds checking is done twice: first after tohit and defense are combined (cf: the simplified tohit formula) and then again after accuracy buffs and debuffs are factored in.
(In excel terminology, Bounded(x) is MIN( MAX(x,0.05), 0.95) )
Rank and Level scaling, and the I7 Defense Scaling Update
Base tohit of villains
In I7, all critters have base tohit of 50%, and have intrinsic accuracy bonuses based on rank:
minions: 1.0 (i.e. no bonus)
LTs: 1.15
Bosses, Snipers: 1.3
Monsters, Giant Monsters, AVs: 1.5
In I7, critters get accuracy buffs from +1 to +5, and then tohit buffs from +6 higher.
The level scaler in I7 for even to +10 is:
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>lev acc tohit
+0 1.0 0
+1 1.1 0
+2 1.2 0
+3 1.3 0
+4 1.4 0
+5 1.5 0
+6 1.5 +5%
+7 1.5 +10%
+8 1.5 +15%
+9 1.5 +20%
+10 1.5 +40%</pre><hr />
(If you're attacking things higher than +10, you don't need my help.)
This is a change from I6 and all previous Issues back to release, when higher rank and higher level critters had increased Base Tohit, which was effectively a tohit buff. This was removed in I7 to more properly reflect the intention to make such critters hit more often, but not at the expense of disproportionately hurting defense sets.
Because there is now a Rank Accuracy Buff, and a Level Accuracy Buff, this is how the I7 tohit mechanics will work specifically for critters:
Bounded[ (InherentAttackAccuracy) * (RankBuff) * (LevelBuff) * Bounded[ (BaseToHit + ToHitBuffs - ToHitDebuffs + Defense - DefenseDebuffs) ] ]
Its important to note that I7 the defense scaler does not affect how tohit buffs work in any way (directly). Tohit buffs are just as dangerous for defense sets as before. What the change does is remove the tohit increases from higher rank and higher level foes: anything that nevertheless still possesses high tohit buffs is still a major threat to defense.
Its also important to note that because it changes villain tohit/accuracy, the defense scaler does not affect player's ability to hit critters or other players, in any way.
For more information about the I7 change to critter accuracy, please see my FAQ on the subject.
Base tohit of heroes (players)
The base tohit of heroes in PvE is 75%. In PvP (arena combat and player vs player fights in PvP zones) base player tohit was reduced (in I6) to 50%. This improves the performance of defense sets in PvP combat substantially, although tohit buffs (being additive) are still a significant issue.
Question: is this a "nerf?" Answer: no, its a proper balancing of defense sets. Defense sets performance were balanced against even level minions, which have a base 50% chance to hit. Furthermore, it is just as reasonable to view this as a +25% buff to player defense across the board, instead of a base -25% tohit chance.
[Note: as of 11/16/05 a patch note was added which specifically stated this exact thing.]
[ QUOTE ]
Example Calculations
To help people trying to make sense of this formula, I have two examples that show where all the numbers are supposed to go.
Example #1: Player attacking even level minion with thunder kick slotted with 1 acc SO; minion has 5% defense.
Net tohit = Bounded[ 1.05 * (1 + 0.333) * Bounded[ 0.75 - 0.05 ] ] = Bounded[ 1.05 * (1 + 0.333) * 0.70 ] ] = Bounded[ 0.9798 ] = 0.95 (capped) = 95%
1.05 = Martial Arts inherent accuracy bonus on all attacks
0.333 = Value of slotted accuracy enhancements
0.75 = Base tohit of player verses even level critter
0.05 = Defense of critter
Example #2: Player attacking player with thunder kick slotted with 2 acc SOs, attacker has +8% tohit buff from tactics, target has 55% defense.
Bounded[ 1.05 * (1 + 0.666) * Bounded[ 0.5 + 0.08 - 0.55 ] ] = Bounded[ 1.05 * (1 + 0.66) * Bounded[ 0.03 ] ] = Bounded[ 1.05 * (1 + 0.666) * 0.05 ] = 0.0875 = 8.75%
1.05 = Martial Arts inherent accuracy bonus on all attacks
0.666 = Value of slotted accuracy enhancements
0.08 = Tohit buffs on the attacker
0.5 = Base tohit of player verses player
0.55 = Defense of target
[/ QUOTE ]
There is an interesting quirk to how this works now. In I7, the "floor" will no longer be 5% for all villains. In fact, 5% has never been the absolute tohit floor (since circa I4); its only been the floor before accuracy is factored in. In other words, even in I6, there were villains that are IMPOSSIBLE to floor to 5% (i.e. Gunslingers) because they had/have attacks with inherent accuracy bonuses (Gunslingers: 2.0 accuracy, or "+100%" acc). Post I7, this effect is more prevalent as higher level and higher rank critters lose tohit and gain accuracy. This means "normal" defenses will become more effective against higher level and higher ranked foes, but ultra-high defense like elude and MoG will actually become somewhat less effective.
[u]Section Two: DEFENSE MECHANICS[u]
Everything you wanted to know about how defense works, and will henceforth be afraid to ask about.
Attack and Defense Typing
Every attack power is typed with one or more Attack Types which specify the kind of attack the power is, and what types of defense work to avoid it. There are ten attack types:
Melee_Attack, Ranged_Attack, AoE_Attack, Smashing_Attack, Lethal_Attack, Fire_Attack, Cold_Attack, Energy_Attack, Negative_Energy_Attack, Psionic_Attack
Melee_Attack, Ranged_Attack, and AoE_Attack are usually referred to as the Positional Types. The rest are usually called the Damage Types. But its important to note something very important.
Attack Types have nothing to do with actual damage.
"Fire attacks" are *not* attacks that do fire damage. "Fire attacks" are attacks that are typed "Fire_Attack" and that Fire defenses work on. They do not necessary do Fire damage.
There are eight damage types: smashing, lethal, fire, cold, energy, negative_energy, toxic, and psionic. Whether an attack does any of these, or none of these, has nothing directly to do with its damage type.
So that there is no confusion, here are some examples:
* Fireball does fire damage and smashing damage. Its typed Fire_Attack/AoE_attack. Smashing defenses do not protect against it.
* Ice Arrow is typed Cold_Attack/Ranged_Attack. It does not do cold damage. It does no damage at all.
* Dominate is typed Psionic_Attack. Notice it isn't typed with any "positional" type at all. So none of Super Reflexes defense powers work against it.
None of these are bugs: all of these are intentional by the devs.
One of the most frequently asked questions about defense is "why is there no toxic defense?" And the short answer is: because there is no toxic_attack type. Even if there was a toxic defense, it wouldn't protect against anything. The real question is, of course, why there is no toxic_attack type. That's a much more difficult question (see the end of the guide).
Defense Stacking Rules
If you have multiple defenses running (either your own powers or defense buffs cast on you by other players), defenses of the same type stack. Defense in CoH stacks additively, which is to say, if you have Defense A, and Defense B, and they stack, your net defense is A+B.
Its important to note that defense powers don't stack: defense types stack. So if you have a power with 10% defense to smashing, lethal, and energy, and another power with 10% defense to energy and negative, then if both are on you have 10% defense to smashing, lethal, and negative, and 20% defense to energy. Its that simple.
There was (and is) a special type of defense called "base defense" or "defense defense" which was basically a defense against all attacks, regardless of type. This form of defense would, of course, stack with everything. Its no longer generally used by the devs in powers definitions, and any powers that have base defense are likely, over time, to have that changed to typed defenses of some kind (defense to all types, most likely, like all power pool defenses have).
There was an issue a while ago in which the game engine was considering, say, someone with smashing defense and energy defense to get smash+energy defense against energy attacks with both smashing and energy components. This was considered a bug by the devs and corrected.
[ QUOTE ]
The Bottom Line
If you want to know how much defense you have against an attack, the game does this:
The game figures out how much defense you have to each attack type: melee, ranged, aoe, smashing, lethal, and so on.
Then it looks at the incoming attack, to see how its typed.
Then it looks at the defense values you have against each of the types the attack is typed to be.
Then it picks the highest one.
That's your defense against that attack.
So if you are attacked by a melee/lethal attack (say, headsplitter), and you have 20% melee defense and 15% lethal defense, you have 20% defense against that attack.
[/ QUOTE ]
Enhancements
Defensive and Tohit powers can be enhanced using the appropriate enhancements. Defense buff/debuff, and Tohit buff/debuff enhancements (along with resistance enhancements) do not follow the general 8.33%/16.7%/33.3% TO/DO/SO (training, dual origin, single origin) enhancement progression that damage enhancements follow (this is usually referred to as "Schedule A" enhancements). Defense enhancements are worth 5% for training, 10% for dual origin, and 20% for single origin enhancements (usually called "Schedule B" enhancements).
The way enhancements work in defense powers (and in powers in general) is that the power has a base defensive value, and enhancements increase that value by a percentage amount equal to their value. To be precise: if a defense power's base value is +5% defense, and an (even level) defense SO is slotted into it, the defense power's new enhanced value is 5% * (1 + 0.2) = 6%: the power is increased in value by 20% (and not 20 percentage points, which would be 5% + 20% = 25%).
The way the game presents enhancement values is a cause for confusion. If you slot two even defense SOs into a power, the enhancement screen will show "+40% defense." The problem is that defense is measured in percentage points, and its confusing as to what this means. It does *not* mean "40 more points of defense." It actually means "1.4x the value of the power." So if the power was offering 5% defense, the enhanced value would be 5% * 1.4 = 7% defense.
As of the writing of this guide, I've *strongly* suggested to the devs that the in-game enhancement screen be changed from "+40%" to "x1.4" specifically for this reason.
Defense enhancements themselves vary in strength based on your hero's level relative to the enhancement: enhancements are 10% weaker than their base value for every level lower than your combat level they are, up to three levels lower, where they are 70% of effective strength (they are worthless if you are more than three levels higher). Conversely, they are 5% stronger for each level higher than your level they are, up to 15% stronger when they are three levels higher than you are (enhancements more than three levels higher than your character's level cannot be slotted). For example, a -2 defense SO (normally +20%) is +16% (20% * 0.8) while a +3 defense SO is +23% (20% * 1.15).
***Enhancement Diversification***
Introduced in I6 is a change in how enhancements work called "enhancement diversification." Basically, it works like this for defense SOs: however you slot, and whatever you slot, you get the first 40% benefit (i.e. 2 even level SOs) at full strength, any benefit above 40% and below 50% at 0.90 (90%) of their value, and benefit above 50% and below 60% at 70% of their value, and any benefit above 60% at only 0.15 (15%) of their value.
This is tricky, so an example should help illustrate what's going on. You slot (presume even level SOs) one defense SO. Defense SOs provide 20% benefit, so you get 20% bonus to the defense power you slotted it in. The second SO adds 20%: you now have 40%. The next SO provides benefit above 40% (and below 60%), and so you get 90% of its value from 40% to 50%, and 70% of its value from 50% to 60%. So the third enhancement adds 0.9 * 10% + 0.7 * 10% = 0.16. So SO #3 adds 16%, not 20%, and your net benefit is now 56%, not 60%. The fourth SO you slot is providing benefit above 60% (note, this is calculated based on the raw values of the SOs, not the reduced value). So you only get 0.15 (15%) of its value. 15% of 20% is 3%. So you now have 59% total benefit, instead of 80%. The fifth and sixth SOs would similarly provide 15% of the SO strength, so SO #5 brings you to 62%, and #6 brings you to 65%.
Notice the extremely sharp cut off in benefit after enhancement #3. The basic rule on ED is: do not slot more than three SOs *worth* of enhancements. Its based on *benefit* and not on the little round thing you slot. So if you slot three SOs, and then one DO, the DO gets hit by ED. If you slot 3 HOs (Hamidon enhancements) of */*/defense and then an SO of defense, the SO gets hit by ED, even though "I didn't slot more than three of anything."
What matters is *benefit* - you simply aren't going to get much more than 3 SOs *worth* of benefit on anything, no matter what crazy combination of enhancements you try to use to dodge it.
Other enhancements, such as accuracy and damage, follow a different, but proportional scale (i.e. 3 SOs worth is where ED kicks in, even though 3 SOs of damage is about +100%, and not +60%).
I6 introduces something else: you can now tell *exactly* how much benefit your powers are getting from enhancements, by hovering your mouse cursor over the blue bar of the power in the enhancement screen. Also, you can "hover" (without dropping) an enhancement over a slot, and see in a popup window what the net overall change to the attributes will be if you chose to slot there.
For more information on Enhancement Diversification, see this article on ParagonWiki.com.
NEW: Invention Enhancements
The invention system, added in Issue 9, introduces a new kind of enhancement. All invention enhancements have the property that they have a fixed enhancement strength regardless of the level of the player's character. So if you slot a level 40 defense enhancement invention, that will have a +23.2% enhancement strength. That enhancement will always provide that same level of enhancement strength regardless of your level. Inventions do not "expire." See Invention Origin Enhancement Scaling on paragonwiki.com for tables on the strengths of invention enhancements.
It would be impossible in this guide to give anything but a brief overview of the Invention System. Here are some of the highlights, relevant to questions of tohit and defense.
Q1: What does Kismet +Acc do?
The Kismet +Acc IO grants +6% tohit buff to the player while the IO is active. The Kismet IO grants its buff for 120 seconds after the power its slotted into is activated. If its slotted into a passive or toggle power, those powers have "activation periods" where the power pulses to refresh its buff on the player (yes, even passive powers "do something" continuously). This means that for all intents and purposes, if Kismet is slotted into a passive or toggle power, its on as long as the power is on (which for a passive means "always").
Q2: When an invention set like, say, Crushing Impact claims to be giving me a 7% accuracy bonus if I slot 4 of them into a power, what does that actually do?
Invention set accuracy bonuses are actual accuracy bonuses, not tohit bonuses (they originally were tohit, but were changed during beta: the patch that implemented the change did not propagate to the live servers until after Issue 9 went live, however). The way they work is that they act like additional accuracy slotting. So if you have two attacks, one of which is slotted with one accuracy SO (+0.333 acc) and one of which is slotted with two accuracy SOs (+0.666), then if you have a +7% set accuracy bonus, those two powers will end up with 1.403 accuracy (1.333 + 0.07) and 1.736 accuracy (1.666 + 0.07). Note that even though it looks like they act like enhancements, they are not actually enhancements, and are unaffected by ED.
Inspirations
Luck inspirations appear to be +Defense to all types (i.e.: defense to melee, ranged, AoE, smash, lethal, fire, cold, energy, negative, psi), and additively stack with any other defense powers you might be running.
Insights, it has been confirmed, work like tohit buffs: they are exactly the opposite of lucks in effect.
Lucks and Insights are mislabeled. According to the devs, lucks and insights are REALLY these values:
DEF
S - 12.5%
M - 25%
L - 33%
ACC
S - 7.5%
M - 18.75%
L - 37.5%
This is considered a bug that is being worked on. What's unclear is whether the values are wrong and the labels are right, or the labels are wrong and the values are right, or if *neither* are what the values of the inspirations really *ought* to be
Resistance to defense debuffs
As of I6, resistance to defense debuffs have been added to some hero and villain sets. Not all sets with defense have had resistance to defense debuffs added: specifically Super Reflexes, Stone, Ice, and Energy Aura have had it added.
There is some confusion surrounding why resistance to defense debuffs was added in the first place. A common theory is that it was added because resistance resists resistance debuffs, but defense does not resist defense debuffs, so there was a disparity. That's actually not true: resistance resists resistance debuffs, while defense avoids defense debuffs.
The asymmetry comes because resistance to resistance debuffs doesn't go down when resistance itself is debuffed: the ability to resist resistance debuffs is itself not debuffable. It never gets weaker. But the ability to avoid a defense debuff obviously goes down as defense itself is debuffed. Defense is vulnerable to what is referred to as "cascade failure" where a defense debuff will reduce defense, making more defense debuffs land, which lowers defense even more, which allows even more defense debuffs to land.
This cascade failure, which occurs for defense sets but not for resistance sets, is the actual reason for the addition of defense debuff resistance, and it was specifically added to sets that rely on defense for a significant part of their protection. Its not an intrinsic property of defense, but a specific resistance added to specific power sets.
For more information on the strength of the debuff resistance, see City of Data listings for various defense powers.
Is there a defense cap? What is it?
This a tricky question. First of all, given the tohit formula, since (Tohit - Defense) obeys the 5%/95% floor and ceiling, that sum can never go lower than 5%. That means no value of defense higher than 5 points less than the attacker's tohit helps: if the attacker has 50% tohit, then nothing higher than 45% defense does anything. If the attacker has tohit buffs, then the attacker's tohit can be higher than 50%, and values higher than 45% can help offset that.
But outside of tohit buffs, critters (and players attacking other players) have 50% tohit, and therefore anything higher than 45% defense is normally of no benefit. This value (45%) is sometimes referred to as the defense soft cap or sometimes just the "defense cap." Its actually the point where defense overpowers tohit and reaches the intermediate floor (before accuracy). You can't do any better than that outside of the attacker having tohit buffs.
However, defense itself is allowed to go higher than that. There is a defense cap, and also a tohit cap, and its archetype-specific, and also scales with level. See this post and this post in Iakona's original numbers thread for the tohit and defense cap tables by level and by archetype. These are true caps, meaning no matter how many defenders buff you, you cannot exceed these values. Keep in mind that these values are often much higher than is necessary to cap out or floor out the tohit system anyway. These tables represent the limits of the game, even though you might not see any actual benefit from numbers that high.
[u]Section Three: THINGS RELATED TO DEFENSE[u]
What is mez defense?
"Mez defense" is the generic term sometimes used to refer to powers that protect against mez. (Using terminology originally used by geko when explaining mez) there are two types of mez "defense" :mez protection and mez resistance. Neither of these is directly related to Defense in terms of damage mitigation, but its worth reviewing.
The basics of mez are: everyone has a threshold that mez effects must break through in order for the mez effect to take hold. Without any mez defense, everyone has a base mez level of -1. All mez powers have a mez magnitude. When a mez power lands, it adds its magnitude to your mez level. A hero with mez level of -1 that gets hit by a magnitude 3 hold has mez level of 2 (-1 + 3). Any mez level higher than zero means the target is mezzed. Mez protection continuously subtracts its associated defense magnitude from your mez level while the power is running. Someone running a mez defense power with mez protection magnitude 10 has a mez level of -11 (-1 - 10). If hit with a mag 3 hold, mez level increases to -8 (-11 + 3). It would take 3 more such holds for the mez level to reach +1.
Mez effects last for a certain period of time, then expire. Mez resistance allows a target to shake off mez effects faster. So instead of a mez effect lasting ten seconds, it might last eight.
Unlike damage resistance, mez resistance works on a different formula: NetDuration = OriginalDuration / (1 + MezResistance). For players, the mez resistance cap is 100%, which means the absolute best that mez resistance can reduce a mez duration on you is half: Duration / (1 + 1.0) = Duration / 2.
Mez protection and mez resistance are not true Defense or Resistance, but its useful to understand and is often confused with true Defense and Resistance.
All mez protection powers in melee defense sets scale up with level: at lower levels, mez protection powers do not offer as much protection as at higher levels. This can surprise people who are used to mez protection at level 50 and are unexpectedly mezzed when they exemplar down to lower levels or fight in lower PvP zones.
*** Note: in I6 mez protection powers were reduced from their previous levels. Maximum protection for tanks and scrappers used to be about magnitude 15, which in effect means controllers needed 6 holds to break protection. Currently, scrapper mez protection powers offer about (negative) mag 10, and tankers approximately mag 13 protection.
What you probably don't know about mez protection.
Mez protection can actually be debuffed. Any power that debuffs a target's ability to *use* mez, will also as a natural consequence debuff their mez protection (that "strength" is the same number under the hood). For example: benumb debuffs mez strength, and therefore also debuffs mez protection. The 55.9% benumb debuff would also reduce your mez protection, from say 10.38 for a level 50 scrapper, down to 10.38 * (1 - 0.559) = 4.58. Like: two holds. Weaken has a similar (and even stronger) effect.
Power boost (and its variants) has the opposite effect: it can buff mez protection magnitude.
What does Power Boost do?
The power Power Boost (both the blaster energy manipulation version, and the epic power pool version) boosts defense powers while power boost is active. The boost is about equal to the base value of the defense power being boosted (its variable based on what archetype is using the power: see City of Data for specifics). For example, if you have hover running (2.5% defense) and you trigger power boost, hover gains 2.5% additional defense. If hover was 3-slotted with defense SOs (net 3.9% defense) the boost would still be 2.5% (to 6.4% total defense). The power "Power Build Up" does similar things (and also boosts damage: its a Power Boost/Build Up hybrid).
What is the Streak Breaker?
The streak breaker is a bit of code within the tohit calculator that is designed to prevent very long strings of misses. There is a lot of misunderstanding about how the streak breaker works, so I'm going to be very specific in terms of detailing how I know what I know about the streak breaker.
First, the streak breaker only breaks streaks of misses, not hits. Confirmed by my own testing, dev postings, and red name PMs.
Second, the streak breaker affects both heroes and villains. Confirmed by my own testing, dev postings, and red name PMs.
Third, the streak breaker "decides" to break a string of misses when the string of misses exceeds a particular value. That value is dependent on the tohit probability between the attacker and the target. Here is Weirdbeard's specific statements on how the streakbreaker works:
[ QUOTE ]
Final to-hit : misses allowed
>.9 : 1
.8-.9 : 2
.6-.8 : 3
.4-.6 : 4
.3-.4 : 6
.2-.3 : 8
0 -.2 : 100
Auto-hit powers are not included in the system.
Critters get the benefits of the system as well.
The system does not track each power individually; instead it tracks every miss you make in a row, regardless of power (or target). Otherwise you could have nine different powers, each with a 0.95 to-hit, and if you executed them all in a row you could miss each attack (note a caveat at the bottom of the post regarding this).
AE attacks are considered distinct sequential attacks on indivudual targets for the purpose of the system (so if you AEd two targets and had 0.95 to-hit for both, you be guaranteed to hit one of them).
To determine the to-hit used in the table above, you take either the current to-hit, or the worst to-hit in your current miss series, whichever is lower.
[/ QUOTE ]
This basically matches all the testing I've done to measure the streakbreaker, correcting for some errors in my testing methodology that Weirdbeard was able to detect in my discussions with him.
[u]Section Four: DEFENSE, ACCURACY, AND VILLAINS[u]
Some villains are really nasty when it comes to hitting you. For example, all Malta attacks have an intrinsic 1.2 accuracy - as if they were slotted with a +20% accuracy enhancement. Malta Gunslingers are special: their attacks all have 2.0 accuracy: as if they were slotted with 3 accuracy SOs. Rularuu Watchers (the big eyeballs) have very high strength defense debuffs, and high accuracy (their defense debuffs range from -15% to -30% based on rank).
Certain CoV villains now use build up, with the associated tohit buff.
On the defensive side: Paragon Protectors that use MoG appear to have *massively* higher defense than the ones that (apparently) use Elude. Its unclear precisely why the large difference exists. And Behemoths definitely look to be getting more than the standard 5% defense for having a player in the invincibility field.
Villains seem, over time, to be acquiring defense powers and abilities. That could be a large source of people believing that "accuracy" has been reduced, when accuracy is unchanged, but the defensive capabilities of the villains has improved.
[u]Section Five: OVERVIEW OF DEFENSE IN POWER SETS[u]
Note: much of this section has been trimmed: for more information on defense powers, see City of Data.
Positional Defenses
Few sets have exclusively or primarily positional defenses. The only two defensive sets with significant positional defenses are Super Reflexes (scrapper and stalker) and Ninjitsu. Almost all other self protection sets have damage-typed defensive powers.
All power pool defenses are typed Defense(All types). This means they have the same amount of defense to all attack types, including positional defense and damage-typed defenses.
Force Field bubbles have both damage-typed defense attributes, and positional-typed defense attributes. Each defensive bubble has protection to some types, but collectively they have protection to all types.
Invincibility
It took a long time for players to figure out what invincibility does, exactly, and what it does has changed several times from release to now. Invincibility offers Base 5% defense for tankers (3.75% defense for scrappers) so long as there is at least one thing in range. It then offers +1.5% defense per target in invincibility's aura range (1.125% for scrappers), to a maximum of ten. So, with nothing in range, invincibility offers zero defense. With one thing, its 6.5% defense (for tankers). With two things, its 8%. With 10 things, its 20% defense. Invincibility also has a tohit buff: its +2% per target in range, for a maximum buff of +20% (unslotted) tohit.
Stalker Hide
All stalkers have a power called hide. Hide offers defense to melee/ranged/AoE/smash/lethal/fire/cold/energy/negative. The defense appears to be about 3.75% to all listed types except AoE, and 37.5% to AoE (that's not a misprint: thirty seven point five percent) when hidden, and 1.875% to all listed types when hide is suppressed. Hide also provides the highest -perception (i.e. stealth) of any power, and while hidden stalker attacks critical (double damage) and assassin's strike powers do six times bonus critical damage. Note: in Issue 11, the endurance cost of Hide was removed from the power: its still a defensive toggle, but it no longer costs any endurance to run.
Special Note on Stealth
Stealth powers generally break their concealment component when you either attack or are attacked. When the stealth is broken, most stealth powers that have a defense buff component will have about half their defense also suppressed while the stealth component is broken.
For information on which powers suppress their defense when stealth is suppressed, consult City of Data.
[u]Section Six: DEFENSE ISSUES[u]
These are some of the issues related to how defense and tohit works in City of Heroes
Autohitting attacks
There are attacks that automatically hit, bypassing the tohit floors and ceilings. Very few attacks currently autohit. Among them are things like the damage aura from the Envoy of Shadows, and the damage from caltrops.
According to the devs, the intent is to remove all autohitting damage with two exceptions: special case damage (like special AV powers, ala the Envoy of Shadows), and "trivial" damage that occurs as part of autohitting debuffs (ala Caltrops). For the most part, they seem to have done this, but there appear to be exceptions to this rule.
Quartz eminators
Quartz eminators are a +100% tohit buff to all affected DE. 'Nuff said.
Geas of the Kind Ones / Force of Nature
These accolades (hero/villain) offer a +200% tohit buff (!) and a -200% defense debuff to the player. Which means anyone using it can basically hit anything no matter how much defense the target has, and anyone with defense that uses it will suddenly find themselves without any. Yes, in fact, the devs really do hate defense that much. Or it might just be me.
(Actually, this has been acknowledged to be a decimal point error, however as its primary effect is in PvP (no critter possesses that power - thank god) no change is currently contemplated.
What's up with tohit buffs in general?
Good question. Very high tohit buffs are, at least, uncommon in PvE. They are very common in PvP, because high order tohit buffs are extremely common in player power sets.
The two most common tohit buffs are build up and Aim, and both are high order tohit buff (for blasters, Aim: +37.5% tohit, BU: 15%; the tohit buff is affected by archetype modifiers: see City of Data for the exact buff for each archetype). Virtually all blasters, most defenders, almost all scrappers, and most tankers have access to either Build Up or Aim, and many blasters have access to both. Only controllers as a class lack BU or Aim (and pets have a tohit bonus).
If you are relying on defense in the arena, here's the score. Unless you are operating in triple-stacked bubbles, running maximally slotted Elude plus everything else SR, or hiding in a PFF, if someone wants to hit you, they are going to hit you. Even moderate tohit buffs are high enough to negate all of your defense and allow them to hit you about as often as they can hit a defenseless cardboard box. If you are operating under Elude, they will have to try harder to hit you. Very well-slotted BU+Aim can do it, as can defender/corruptor Aim with tactics. And there is an accolade (Geas of the Kind Ones) that offers a +200% tohit buff, which essentially can hit through anything.
Which is not to say this is impossible to address. (Note: link broken, working to fix that before guide is finalized)
Why is there no toxic defense?
Because there's no toxic attack type, so there's no toxic defense to protect against it. Why is there no toxic attack type? Short answer: too time-consuming to add to the game engine, for what the devs perceive to be insufficient benefit to the game as a whole. This means that "hole" is likely to be around for a very very long time.
Lots of people have suggested ways to work around this, or just add it back in, including me. These are unlikely to get very far with the devs.
Mind Control
Mind control attacks are all typed psionic_attack. They are *not* typed "ranged_attack" or any other positional type. This means that as far as those attacks are concerned, super reflex and ninjitsu defenses don't exist. SR and Ninjitsu no more affect these attacks than the lethal defense in Parry affects psionic blasts.
This is not a bug. This is by explicit design decision: mind control attacks were designed to specifically require psionic defense explicitly to protect against them. As a result, SR has no protection against mind control attacks in PvP or PvE (Lost, Tsoo, Rikti, Carnies, among other groups use mind control attacks). Its unclear if this is *balanced*, but its not bugged.
THE CANONICAL LIST OF DEFENSE-RELATED COMPLAINTS REGULARLY DISCUSSED ON THE FORUMS
Especially post I7, this list is very different from what it used to be:
* High defense is too frustrating in the arena
* Low defense is too frustrating in the arena
* There are too many defense debuffs in the game
* Defense debuffs are too strong
* Tohit buffs in the arena are too strong
* Defense requires you to be lucky
* Defense is inferior to Resistance in all respects
* Force Field defenders have insufficient self-protection
* Lucky and Evasion are in the wrong order in the SR set
* The -DEF in Unyielding should be removed given the overall reductions to the invuln set
* Geas of the Kind Ones supplants Quartz eminators as Most Stupidly High Tohit Buff
* Energy Aura appears to have way too many types of attacks for which it has no defensive protection
* Why is mind control not typed positionally?
Be forewarned: this stuff has been debated to death. Also, while I strongly encourage people to post their ideas, observations, comments, and suggestions on defense-related issues, bear in mind that if you post a message stating, essentially "I have the answer to everything" one of two things is extremely likely to happen: the message will be ignored, or the suggestion in the message will be heavily critiqued. Be prepared for both.
[u]Section Seven: Odds and Ends[u]
THE PURPLE PATCH
Get asked about this all the time. Here is what happens when you try to attack something much higher than you are, in terms of your powers effectiveness going down, and in terms of your base tohit going down also. Note: this affects players attacking higher leveled foes. Low level villains attacking a higher level player are not affected by the purple patch. These numbers come from a Geko post from the distant past.
[ QUOTE ]
Foes your level have not changed. You have a 75% chance to hit and your powers are 100% effective.
Foes 1 level above you - No Change. You have a 65% chance to hit and your powers are 90% effective.
Foes 2 levels above you - No Change. You have a 56% chance to hit and your powers are 80% effective.
Foes 3 levels above you - You have a 48% chance to hit and your powers are 65% effective.
Foes 4 levels above you - You have a 39% chance to hit and your powers are 48% effective.
Foes 5 levels above you - You have a 30% chance to hit and your powers are 30% effective.
Foes 6 levels above you - You have a 20% chance to hit and your powers are 15% effective.
Foes 7 levels above you - You have a 8% chance to hit and your powers are 8% effective.
Foes 8 levels above you - You have an 5% chance to hit and your powers are 5% effective.
Foes 9 levels above you - You have a 5% chance to hit and your powers are 4% effective.
Foes 10 levels above you - You have a 5% chance to hit and your powers are 3% effective.
Foes 11 levels above you - You have a 5% chance to hit and your powers are 2% effective.
Foes 12+ levels above you - You have a 5% chance to hit and your powers are 1% effective.
[/ QUOTE ]
Note: this includes the corrected tohit numbers that were discovered around I6.
A discussion on AT modifiers
All defense powers (in fact, all powers period) are designed with a scale value. Its the inherent strength of the power. However, the actual strength of the power depends on which AT has it. Each AT has a set of modifiers that "scale" the power's values to the proper strength.
This table is the AT defense modifier table (taken from Iakona's thread).
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>
Modifier Blast Contr Def Scrap Tank PeacB Warsh Brute Stalk MasM Dom Corrupt
M Buff Def 0.070 0.090 0.100 0.075 0.100 0.075 0.075 0.075 0.075 0.090 0.085 0.085
R Buff Def 0.065 0.075 0.100 0.065 0.065 0.075 0.075 0.065 0.065 0.075 0.075 0.075</pre><hr />
For example, these are the values for Super Reflexes:
SR Toggles: Scale 1.85
SR Passives: Scale 0.75
This means SR toggles are 1.85 * 0.075 = 0.13875 = 13.875% SR passives are 0.75 * 0.075 = 0.05625 = 5.625%
Note that there are two values, an "M" (melee) modifier, and an "R" (ranged) modifier. This has nothing to do with melee or ranged defense. M modifiers are used for powers that self buff, and R modifiers are used for powers that ally buff. So powers like combat jumping, hover, and stealth use the melee modifier. Maneuvers uses the ranged modifier. Grant Invisibility seems to be an exception to this rule: GI uses the melee modifier, not the ranged modifier, as you would expect given that its a buff.
Most Power pool defenses are 0.25 scale. Weave is an exception: its 0.50 scale. It seems stealth is also an exception: its 0.5 scale unsuppressed, and 0.25 scale suppressed. This is suggested in the Prima Guide.
Most things obeys AT modifiers, including most defense powers, whether in primary or secondary sets, or in power pools. An interesting exception is the Unyielding Debuff: it was -5% for both scrappers and tankers. Its now set to -3.75% for scrappers (and brutes) and -5% for tankers, but it was originally designed with an "absolute" value, and not one that obeyed archetype modifiers.
SR scrappers and SR stalkers have the same defense values, except SR stalkers have a higher scale value for Evasion, because they lack lucky. Ninjitsu stalkers have the same values for toggle defenses as SR scrappers and stalkers. This is because the toggles and passives for SR scrappers, SR stalkers, and Ninjitsu stalkers all have the same scale value, and scrappers and stalkers have the same AT defense modifier. Simple as that.
For additional information on archetype modifiers, see City of Data: Archetype Modifiers.
SOURCES OF ADDITIONAL INFORMATION
I kept the power set numbers out of this guide for the most part, except where they appear to be commonly discussed or questioned. If you want them, here they are:
City of Data is the best source of numbers around, period. Its based on I7 numbers, so as the game continues to change, it will slowly become dated, but its information is otherwise unparalleled.
Paragonwiki is an excellent source of collected background information about the game.
The Prima Update for I7 has a lot of numbers now published for all sorts of power values. Fair warning: if you are not knowledgeable about how the numbers actually *work* in CoH, this guide might lead you astray. For example, power pool defenses are listed for a theoretical AT with Defense buff modifier 0.100 - i.e. its good for tankers. Scrappers would actually benefit by only 75% of the listed values for defense and resistance.
If Iakona posts it, its probably correct. Check his posts on the forums. Unfortunately, at the moment Iakona is "on indefinite leave from the game."
Those of you who know me, know I've had a long hate-hate relationship with build planners. Mostly, because they tended to be wrong more times than they were right, even though many were useful overall. I've finally found one I can recommend: Mid's Hero Designer isn't perfect, doesn't always calculate things in the most transparent way, and occasionally has a numerical glitch or two. But it appears to be supported by the author quite well, updates often, isn't totally borked on tohit and accuracy calculations, and most importantly, its fun to use to play around with builds, especially builds with Inventions slotted. If you have a question of the form "if I build like this, what would my defense be" then Mids might be the tool for you, especially with regard to inventions and invention bonuses. I use it, and I can honestly say its the first one I've actually *wanted* to use.
Use of this Guide
Anyone compiling information for use by players of City of Heroes and City of Villains has permission to reproduce this guide whole or in part, so long as some form of attribution is maintained. But if you make a ton of money off of it, and I find out about it, I'm going to come looking for my cut.
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Two things:
[ QUOTE ]
Low level villains attacking a higher level player are not affected by the purple patch.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this. Obviously, lower level villains attacking higher level heroes experience some decrement in damage and accuracy; that's why you can take a level 50 into Perez Park, and the Skuls will hit you 5% of the time, for 0.01 damage.
Do you just mean that this decrement is not as severe as it is for players; i.e., it's the same table that was used for players prior to the original purple patch going in?
The second point is one of those arcane numerical things that nobody but me will probably find interesting. Still, showing the ToHit rolls on Test makes it a lot easier to test these things.
It turns out that base to-hit drops below 5% for much higher-level mobs. Here's the table:
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>+4 39%
+5 30%
+6 20%
+7 8%
+8 -10%
+9 -17%
+10 -20%
+11 -21%
+12 -22%
+13 -23%
+14 and up -24%
</pre><hr />
(I didn't test +1 through +3; I assume it's the same as what's currently in the table.)
This pretty much only has ramifications if you're trying to calculate chance to hit against very purple foes when you've got a large ToHit buff, i.e. Aim, FA, etc.
[ QUOTE ]
Two things:
[ QUOTE ]
Low level villains attacking a higher level player are not affected by the purple patch.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this. Obviously, lower level villains attacking higher level heroes experience some decrement in damage and accuracy; that's why you can take a level 50 into Perez Park, and the Skuls will hit you 5% of the time, for 0.01 damage.
Do you just mean that this decrement is not as severe as it is for players; i.e., it's the same table that was used for players prior to the original purple patch going in?
[/ QUOTE ]
I mean they are not affected by the purple patch. There is a "normal" scaler that affects critters hitting higher level players. Or rather, there used to be just one scaler that affected anything hitting anything else: its what we see when we attack something lower than us. The "purple patch" as its called was specifically added to the game to override that scaler and place an exponential reduction in powers effectiveness for the specific case of players attacking higher level critters.
[ QUOTE ]
The second point is one of those arcane numerical things that nobody but me will probably find interesting. Still, showing the ToHit rolls on Test makes it a lot easier to test these things.
It turns out that base to-hit drops below 5% for much higher-level mobs. Here's the table:
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>+4 39%
+5 30%
+6 20%
+7 8%
+8 -10%
+9 -17%
+10 -20%
+11 -21%
+12 -22%
+13 -23%
+14 and up -24%
</pre><hr />
(I didn't test +1 through +3; I assume it's the same as what's currently in the table.)
This pretty much only has ramifications if you're trying to calculate chance to hit against very purple foes when you've got a large ToHit buff, i.e. Aim, FA, etc.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm looking at the numbers on test myself, and I'm compiling data to include in the guide, as well as questions for the devs. For example, malta turrets do not obey the general rule of "everything has base 50% tohit." They actually have base 75% chance to hit, over and above their 1.2 accuracy. They are not especially dangerous, but I've always noticed them hitting me a lot more often than I thought they should under SR defenses, and decided to test them. They are *much* more accurate because they actually retain their higher base tohit numbers from pre-I7.
Don't know if that is an error, or intentional, yet.
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So your chance to hit is affected by the mob level difference (expected) - is it not affected by the mob rank? i.e. are bosses harder to hit than minions?
[ QUOTE ]
So your chance to hit is affected by the mob level difference (expected) - is it not affected by the mob rank? i.e. are bosses harder to hit than minions?
[/ QUOTE ]
Rank (or any other such property of a critter) has no impact on your base chance to hit a critter. The only two intrinsic properties of a target that affect your base chance to hit it is the critter's level difference relative to you, and any defense the critter has (there are, of course, dynamic things that change the net chance to hit a target, including tohit buffs, tohit debuffs, defense debuffs, etc).
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[ QUOTE ]
For example, malta turrets do not obey the general rule of "everything has base 50% tohit." They actually have base 75% chance to hit, over and above their 1.2 accuracy. They are not especially dangerous, but I've always noticed them hitting me a lot more often than I thought they should under SR defenses, and decided to test them. They are *much* more accurate because they actually retain their higher base tohit numbers from pre-I7.
[/ QUOTE ]
Is that maybe because they just summon the same pet the players do, which has that 1.5 accuracy scale and thus a 75% effective hit chance against even-level foes?
If that's the case, is it possible all summoned pets who are just player powers act like this? For example, it always seemed to me that the Summoned Stone pets whipped up by the Legacy Chain bosses were exceptionally accurate.
Edit: re-reading your post you seem to be saying they truly have a 75% chance to hit, base, then 1.2 accuracy on top. If that's really the case that's definitely interesting and odd.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
I wonder if pets in general have 75% base to hit. I seem to get hit by Phantasms an awful lot...
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For example, malta turrets do not obey the general rule of "everything has base 50% tohit." They actually have base 75% chance to hit, over and above their 1.2 accuracy. They are not especially dangerous, but I've always noticed them hitting me a lot more often than I thought they should under SR defenses, and decided to test them. They are *much* more accurate because they actually retain their higher base tohit numbers from pre-I7.
[/ QUOTE ]
Is that maybe because they just summon the same pet the players do, which has that 1.5 accuracy scale and thus a 75% effective hit chance against even-level foes?
If that's the case, is it possible all summoned pets who are just player powers act like this? For example, it always seemed to me that the Summoned Stone pets whipped up by the Legacy Chain bosses were exceptionally accurate.
Edit: re-reading your post you seem to be saying they truly have a 75% chance to hit, base, then 1.2 accuracy on top. If that's really the case that's definitely interesting and odd.
[/ QUOTE ]
As a matter of fact, it appears that player pets do in fact have the same base 75% chance to hit that players themselves do (at least in PvE). And actually, it appears that Malta turrets are spawning with the same "tag" that tells the game what sort of modifier tables to use for it: in effect, its spawning as a player pet-kind of thing.
And yes, this might be true for *a lot* of NPC spawned pet entities. Which is a potential cause for concern.
Turrets have 75% base chance to hit (against even con), and 1.2 accuracy, because in effect the Turret has 75% base chance tohit, and then the turret's "powers" have intrinsic 1.2 accuracy when they are fired. The turret doesn't seem to have "intrinsic accuracy" which a normal critter (that has some form of rank bonus) would have.
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Cool guide.
One nitpick:
When you discuss Power Boost's effect on Hover you hypothesize a fully defense slotted, Power Boosted Hover.
Hover's base def is 2.5%. PB doubles that (approx) to 5%.
However, Defense is a schedule B enhancement, so slotting does not get you another 2.5%. Slotting will only get you an additional 1.5% (approx), for a total of about 6.5% when Power Boosted.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
[ QUOTE ]
Cool guide.
One nitpick:
When you discuss Power Boost's effect on Hover you hypothesize a fully defense slotted, Power Boosted Hover.
Hover's base def is 2.5%. PB doubles that (approx) to 5%.
However, Defense is a schedule B enhancement, so slotting does not get you another 2.5%. Slotting will only get you an additional 1.5% (approx), for a total of about 6.5% when Power Boosted.
[/ QUOTE ]
Eight posts upward, there is a second draft of the guide that corrects that error, and a bunch of other errors from the original draft that started the thread, as well as some improved formatting. I'm working to finalize this so I can post it as the latest version of the guide, but I've been holding back a bit just until the attribute modifier and the new combat spam get a chance to be shaken down, so I can add information about those into the guide.
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excellent, keep up the good work 
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
Note: biggest bug that the attribute monitor has apparently uncovered so far that I'm aware of.
Tohit isn't capped. Defense obeys the defense cap, but tohit is totally uncapped. Keep popping insights or using other tohit buffs, and tohit will just keep on going up. That's uh, yet another reason why defense is not the best defense in PvP, and why Geas seems to cut right through defenses it shouldn't be able to.
Thanks to Peritus for bringing this one to my attention, and thanks to pohsyb for locating the, uh, glitch. I'm presuming this will be fixed in some future patch.
Note: apparently, unless you were playing in beta, tohit has never been capped. Ever.
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Of course, I believe according to the attribute monitor damage isn't capped either. I believe the popular theory that was posted about this was that maybe it didn't check/cap until attack activation, but that was guessing.
I don't have the link to the guy that reached +1575% damage by eating reds and posted his (very funny) screen cap of it....
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Of course, I believe according to the attribute monitor damage isn't capped either. I believe the popular theory that was posted about this was that maybe it didn't check/cap until attack activation, but that was guessing.
I don't have the link to the guy that reached +1575% damage by eating reds and posted his (very funny) screen cap of it....
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We know that damage is actually capped, even if the attribute monitor doesn't display that fact. But in this case, tohit really isn't capped; that was confirmed by pohsyb.
Like anyone that plays a defense set is surprised. Once, a while ago I said (in reference to the tohit buff decimal error in Geas) that I know more about how tohit works than anyone outside of Cryptic [aka NCNC], and probably more than most people inside of Cryptic, and yet I'd bet that there's probably at least one more way the game engine screws defense that I don't know about. Just because at no time in the history of the game would I have ever lost that bet.
Well, I win again. Sort of.
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Note: biggest bug that the attribute monitor has apparently uncovered so far that I'm aware of.
Tohit isn't capped. Defense obeys the defense cap, but tohit is totally uncapped. Keep popping insights or using other tohit buffs, and tohit will just keep on going up. That's uh, yet another reason why defense is not the best defense in PvP, and why Geas seems to cut right through defenses it shouldn't be able to.
Thanks to Peritus for bringing this one to my attention, and thanks to pohsyb for locating the, uh, glitch. I'm presuming this will be fixed in some future patch.
Note: apparently, unless you were playing in beta, tohit has never been capped. Ever.
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To be clear on this, does this mean that defense will cap at some value, but ToHit can be buffed endlessly?
And does this mean that ToHit is still affected by the Bounding to hold it to under 0.95?
What value does it take to hit the Defense cap?
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Tog,
The bounding isn't done until after defense is modified by tohit.
Arcanaville,
So pohsyb agreed that the lack of a tohit cap was a bug? I find that fascinating. Castle never responded when I asked him about fixing the +200% tohit buff and -200% defense debuff on Geas/FoN.
As ToG asked, what are the defense and tohit caps supposed to be?
If it's 200%, is that a hard 200 cap, meaning 50% chance tohit in PvP +150%? Or 250% total up against a 200% defense cap?
Be well, people of CoH.
Both tohit and defense are supposed to obey hard caps, just like damage. Just like damage, the caps are different for different archetypes, but unlike damage (more like mez protection) they scale with level. At level 50, the tohit and defense caps are between 175% and 225% depending on archetype.
If you want to know the exact values, see this post and this post.
And defense and tohit are supposed to obey independent caps. This is completely different from the bounds enforced in the tohit algorithm, where the FINAL tohit and INTERIM tohit (before accuracy) are restricted to between 5% and 95%. These caps on tohit and defense refer to literal caps on the maximum value those two attributes can have.
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In the two posts you linked, the first shows a flat cap at 50 on defense at 1.75.
The second link shows 2 caps at 50, based on AT, of 2.0038 and 2.2505.
The only tohit cap listed for 50 is 2.0035.
If we ignore the 1st link def cap, and use the 2nd link, then a scrapper at 50 has the same defense cap value as the tohit cap.
Here's what this implies to me, knowing that I'm probably wrong.
Base tohit in PvP is 50% or .5
If the cap is 2.0035, then a player is SUPPOSED to be only able to add 150.35% tohit. A max def SR scrapper under elude has around 45+45+25.2 = 115.2% defense. Nowhere near the cap. But lets get silly and use the caps in your equations.
3slotted acc attacker with capped tohit against capped defense using scrapper:
Total = 1.95 * (200.35 - 200.35) = 9.75% chance to hit. Floored.
This would mean that Defense > Tohit within the design of CoH/V IF the tohit cap was actually in place.
So now the question:
Wouldn't it be an easy fix for PvP to put into place tohit and defense caps of 100%?
Then an eluded scrapper would be at the defense cap, as it should be, and all attacks, even at the tohit cap, painfully easy to get there, will still be floored.
And then nothing more needs be done, yes?
EDIT: Hell, if you want tohit to maintain an edge, make the tohit cap 125 and the defense cap 100.
Then attackers will still be able to get damn near the original 50/50 chance to hit.
Be well, people of CoH.
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In the two posts you linked, the first shows a flat cap at 50 on defense at 1.75.
The second link shows 2 caps at 50, based on AT, of 2.0038 and 2.2505.
The only tohit cap listed for 50 is 2.0035.
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The first post shows the tohit caps for everyone, and the defense caps for all archetypes not listed in post two: defense caps are archetype-specific.
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Wouldn't it be an easy fix for PvP to put into place tohit and defense caps of 100%?
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I don't know if "fix" is the right word. It would set a situation at the ceiling that might be the desired behavior, but that still leaves every other situation (like, say, in Siren's Call without external buffing) still not functioning as desired.
Basically, you'd make Elude and triple-stacked bubbles work "correctly" and everything else is still where we are now.
Its a pretty involved discussion as to whether the caps should be a lot lower than they are, given the current actual range of valid final tohit numbers (i.e. 5% - 95%).
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Hey, I'm sure you have been asked this before, but does Defense stack? Like if I am getting attacked by a ranged/fire damage attack and I have 30%defense to ranged and 15% defense to fire would it be safe to say that I have 45% defense and that if it is an even level minion that It would have a 5% chance to hit me?
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Hey, I'm sure you have been asked this before, but does Defense stack? Like if I am getting attacked by a ranged/fire damage attack and I have 30%defense to ranged and 15% defense to fire would it be safe to say that I have 45% defense and that if it is an even level minion that It would have a 5% chance to hit me?
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Only like defenses stacke, so, no.
Only one defense number is used in the final to hit formula, so, in the case you mentioned above, the 30% Ranged Defense is used as your Defense attribute because it is the higher of the two.
If however, a teammate gave you a 20% Fire Defense buff, your total Fire Defense would be 35% and so, 35% would be used as your Defense attribute.
And you are correct in subtracting your Defense attribute from that attack from the 50% base chance ToHit of an even con minion. Against such a critter, your 30% Raged Defense would mean that the minion has a final chance ToHit you at 20%.
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Ah thanks for the reply. I'm familiar with City of Data but somehow never notice the attack typing information. I wish there was a source like that for the attacks mobs in the game use. AFAIK in at least some cases they may use an attack with the same name as one players get but it can be different in some ways, so I'm not sure I'd count on the typing being the same.
It's also good to know that attacks can have more than one damage type. So what's usually said about smashing defense working against say a cold/smashing attack is probably true in *most* cases, but not necessarily all. Great info.