Guide: Invention Salvage and You! (Version 1.0)
By
Blueeyed,
Posted on: 2007-04-04 03:19 in The Market and Inventions
Editorial Comment: There are flatly not enough Tech Only NPC groups. And some of the ones listed as both make no sense to me:
<ul type="square">[*]Devouring Earth: Isn't Hamidon a scientist, inside all that goo?[*]Freakshow: With the exception of the Freakshow/Coralax hybrids, Freakshow are only shown as using tech.[*]Goldbrickers: All of their dialog, where they list things that Midas has sent them out to steal, lists tech items. And they ought to be the opposite of the Luddites.[*]Nemesis: Isn't Prince Nemesis the ultimate tech villain?[*]Rikti: Isn't it a major plot point in the Rikti War that the Ritki have no magic?[*]Sky Raiders: When are they ever shown as using magic?[*]Vahzilok: Where in the Vahzilok story arcs are we ever shown Dr. V or any of his minions using magic?[/list]And on the other hand, it makes no sense to me that Longbow is tech only. Mage Hunter Zhukara has a story arc that specifically sends you after a magic user who works for Longbow. And this penalizes villains who run PVP zone missions, since heroes who do so get both tech and magic invention salvage, but villains get only tech.
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Editorial Comment: There are flatly not enough Tech Only NPC groups. And some of the ones listed as both make no sense to me:
<ul type="square">[*]Rikti: Isn't it a major plot point in the Rikti War that the Ritki have no magic?[/list]
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I agree on your other points but I recently did a mission where I had to fight Rikti Mages as the Rikti were learning magic.
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"Once the avalanche has started, it is too late for the pebbles to vote" -Kosh
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Editorial Comment: There are flatly not enough Tech Only NPC groups. And some of the ones listed as both make no sense to me:
<ul type="square">[*]Rikti: Isn't it a major plot point in the Rikti War that the Ritki have no magic?[/list]
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I agree on your other points but I recently did a mission where I had to fight Rikti Mages as the Rikti were learning magic.
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Totally spoilerish!
Yeah. The Rikti themselves have no affiliation with magic. This is why so many magic based heroes were sent to Rikti Earth to stop them. Because the Rikti was pretty defenseless to that.
In the mentioned story arc, Lost who are converted to Rikti, may actually have Mu ancestry. Which means that suddenly you get Rikti with magical potential.
Far as I recall, you shut down that experiment during the story arc, so Rikti with magical affinity should be extremely limited. So I'd agree that Rikti should be tech only. Or at least not 50-50.
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
=][=
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Tech Uncommon:<ul type="square">[*]Tier 1: Mutant Blood Sample, Heavy Water, Daemon Program, Chemical Formula, Polycarbon, Scope.[*]Tier 2: Commercial Cybernetic, Corrosive Gas, Scientific Law, Data Drive, Mutant DNA Strand, Steel.[*]Tier 3: Energy Weapon, Temporal Tracer, Titanium Shard, Pneumatic Piston, Gold, Chaos Theorem.[/list]
Tech Rare:<ul type="square">[*]Tier 1: Alien Blood Sample, Enriched Plutonium, Source Code, Complex Chemical Formula, Plasma Converter, Heads Up Display.[*]Tier 2: Reactive Gas, Conspiratorial Evidence, Holographic Memory, Mutating Genome, Impervium.[*]Tier 3: Photonic Weapon, Chronal Skip, Rikti Alloy, Positronic Matrix, Platinum, Synthetic Intelligence Unit.[/list]
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Tech Rare Tier 2 is missing an item from the beginning of the list, should be a type of cybernetic.
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Ahah! This was exactly what I was looking for last night. Thank you so much InfamousBrad for putting this together. VERY much appreciated. 
Main Character: Ice/Storm/Ice Controller (Justice, 1340 badges)
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Tech Rare Tier 2 is missing an item from the beginning of the list, should be a type of cybernetic.
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Thanks! It's Military Cybernetic; fixed above. Also updated to include Mooks and Shivans, both of which drop both magic and tech.
Another quick addition: I forgot Legacy Chain (magic only) and Wyvern (both tech and magic).
Nuts, too late to edit in two obvious omissions:
<ul type="square">[*]Magic only: Outcasts, Warriors.[/list]
Incidently, there's a mission in CoH in which you tackle Freaks that are trying to learn magic. They're not very good, but they do that ritual emote (with the exploding cloud) that CoT do.
Wonderful list, though. I was wondering who dropped what, level range, and stuff. I wish it was easier to get lower level salvage for my high level characters though, since it's cheaper to make the lower level IOs that it is for the level 50 ones. <_<
Dungeoncleaners! (ID#125715): Slay the Adventurers! Rescue the Monsters! Return the Treasure!
Peppermint Cat-- Lv50 Mewtant Ice/Eng Bls
This means that recipes can drop that you can no longer find salvage to create, and either had to find it prior to finding the recipe (ie a level 50 recipe requiring tier 2 salvage) or purchase it through Wentworths. Gotta say, some of this stuff is hard to find, at least on test.
Sgt Liberty - 50 Martial Arts / Super Reflexes
Verdigris Eagle - 50 Archery / Energy Manipulation
Stormeye - 50 Storm Summoning / Electric Blast
Although they might tweak numbers later on, it'd be nice if we could downgrade invention salvage. Like the convert-invention-to-base salvage, you could convert Tier 3 to Tier 2, or Tier 2 to Tier 1. <_<
Of course, if we could do that, it might make the consignment houses not as used, at least, for searching for low-tier salvage by higher levels. >_>
Dungeoncleaners! (ID#125715): Slay the Adventurers! Rescue the Monsters! Return the Treasure!
Peppermint Cat-- Lv50 Mewtant Ice/Eng Bls
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I wish it was easier to get lower level salvage for my high level characters though, since it's cheaper to make the lower level IOs that it is for the level 50 ones. <_<
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I think that's the idea -- if you need influence that much, they want you exemplaring around anyway.
I think they need a lot more pure tech, particularly since I'm unaware of any good middle-range tech enemies that can be exmplared down too... And it would help if they thought a little harder about the drop tables.
My level 40 warshade has a load of 45 and 50 IO recipes he can complete, but a lot of 40 IOs are reliant on tier 2 salvage.
Quick Reply: revision coming. For now, add a few more groups:
<ul type="square">[*]Mixture of Magic and Tech: Hydra, Security Guards, Spetsnaz Commandos[/list]But the big deal is that I screwed up the level ranges. By not jumping in even levels of 5 all the way through, the game tricked me. It actually works like this:
<ul type="square">[*]NPC level 4-19: Tier 1 only.[*]NPC level 20-25: Mixture of Tier 1 and Tier 2.[*]NPC level 26-34: Tier 2 only.[*]NPC level 35-39: Mixture of Tier 2 and Tier 3.[*]NPC level 40-54: Tier 3 only.[/list]
3 Groups of Tech on the villain side one is available at all level of the game and One group of Tech on the Hero Side Clock work. After 20, there are no clock work missions, till one mission in the 40's.
Looking at the auction house tech items are high demand tier 2 item. One item as a wait list of 250+ poeple looking for a common salvage item.
The basic issue is trying to get the tech salvage item neeed for recipes between 25-40 is at best halved due to fight groups that drop both magic and tech. The drop rate would seem worse for a player running Carnival, Devouring Earth and CoT missions in addition to fight other groups. If they fought Carvinal, Devouring Earth and CoT, The drop rate would be zero.
The impact of this is long queues for the tech item at Wentworth. The tech item being sold for insane prices. The very good possibilty that a hero can collect 20+ peiced of savlage on not be able to make 1 item that the hero can use. (I have test this hunted the mixed groups and had this happen four of five time, one hero was able to make an IO, after that I started filling the salvage inventory and deleting recipes)
As a player, I have two options, Get the 1 clockwork mission in the 40's to farm for tech salvage or not fight Circle of Thorns, Devouring Earth or Carnival to keep my salvage even.
My suggestion to the developer to fix this is to bring some balace, either all groups drop everthying or even out the tech only and magic only groups such as making the Council and Nememsis and Ritiki tech only.
It has been stated that the queses will go away after a couple of week on live; this is not true. I am Manufacturing Engineer. My degree is in studying and understanding queues. Everything. As it can be seen on test, a number of items have an increase queues for buyers. Considering the salvage issue, It is entire palsable this will be the sitution on live. I understand that adjustments need to be made. All I ask is the that the queues are taking seriously. Not looking at the queues as 250 players that did not get an item; it is 250 customer that are unhappy with the new system. Scaling up does not improve this, all that will happen is take the issue multiply be the scaling factor that will be as bad as it gets. On live it will not be 250 player it will be 250 players X 10. Please reconsider the system, I thik the system is good, just need some small adjustments.
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<ul type="square">[*]NPC level 4-19: Tier 1 only.[*]NPC level 20-25: Mixture of Tier 1 and Tier 2.[*]NPC level 26-34: Tier 2 only.[*]NPC level 35-39: Mixture of Tier 2 and Tier 3.[*]NPC level 40-54: Tier 3 only.[/list]
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Ah, that's good to know. Glad there's a Tier 2 only in there. Thanks.
Phantom Rose: Ill / Kin / Psi
Soleau: Ice / Icy / Ice / Core: Ice / Fire / Pyre / Wind / Eclipse / Flare / Corona
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Solo Space
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<ul type="square">[*]NPC level 4-19: Tier 1 only.[*]NPC level 20-25: Mixture of Tier 1 and Tier 2.[*]NPC level 26-34: Tier 2 only.[*]NPC level 35-39: Mixture of Tier 2 and Tier 3.[*]NPC level 40-54: Tier 3 only.[/list]
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Ah, that's good to know. Glad there's a Tier 2 only in there. Thanks.
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I just checked, you can get that salvage while exemplared. At least, you can in Siren's Call. I recieved 2 Spell Inks and a level 30 Snare Duration recipe.
Sgt Liberty - 50 Martial Arts / Super Reflexes
Verdigris Eagle - 50 Archery / Energy Manipulation
Stormeye - 50 Storm Summoning / Electric Blast
Some of those drops are a little strange to me, as well. Some of these things I just can't see using Magic : Vahzilok are zombots, Sky Raider rely on jetpacks and robots, the average Rikti have no ability with magic as a definitional thing, Nemesis is the Steampunk Doctor Doom, and Freakshow, Goldbrickers, the Family, and Crey all show no real magical ability. Malta might kidnap a specific magical hero or villain, but they don't really show any affinity for it in their normal troops. The Council actually have no magical creatures, only things made by serums, scientific experimentation, and kheldian exposure (all science), with a mutant at the head of the line.
This can be hand-waved away by simply saying that the Rikti mugged a Circle of Thorns boss right before you beat him/her/it up, but that doesn't really fix the balance issues. As Brad pointed out in chat yesterday, most recipes are an equal balance of tech and magic, but players are going to fight enemies that either drop 50/50 or drop all magic.
Oh, and recipes seem to drop at the enemy level, as welll; Diaos1 has picked up a good half-dozen level 25 recipes while trawling Bloody Bay.
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Some of those drops are a little strange to me, as well. Some of these things I just can't see using Magic : Vahzilok are zombots, Sky Raider rely on jetpacks and robots, the average Rikti have no ability with magic as a definitional thing, Nemesis is the Steampunk Doctor Doom, and Freakshow, Goldbrickers, the Family, and Crey all show no real magical ability. Malta might kidnap a specific magical hero or villain, but they don't really show any affinity for it in their normal troops. The Council actually have no magical creatures, only things made by serums, scientific experimentation, and kheldian exposure (all science), with a mutant at the head of the line.
This can be hand-waved away by simply saying that the Rikti mugged a Circle of Thorns boss right before you beat him/her/it up, but that doesn't really fix the balance issues. As Brad pointed out in chat yesterday, most recipes are an equal balance of tech and magic, but players are going to fight enemies that either drop 50/50 or drop all magic.
Oh, and recipes seem to drop at the enemy level, as welll; Diaos1 has picked up a good half-dozen level 25 recipes while trawling Bloody Bay.
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Generic recipes seem to, but while in Siren's Call my 50 Scrapper got a 50 Blood Mandate Acc/Dmg recipe, while the "generic" style IOs dropped with my combat level (30 in SC).
Sgt Liberty - 50 Martial Arts / Super Reflexes
Verdigris Eagle - 50 Archery / Energy Manipulation
Stormeye - 50 Storm Summoning / Electric Blast
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The impact of this is long queues for the tech item at Wentworth. The tech item being sold for insane prices.
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This is, of course, seriously exacerbated by the fact that people have just barely enough auction house slots to sell their manufactured items, uncommon and rare salvage, and unwanted recipes. Of the thousands of common salvage items per hour looted, look how few end up on the auction houses.
If the system goes live looking like this, what you're going to see is people of all levels standing in Atlas Park and in Port Oakes spamming non-stop for Boresights, in particular.
I'm working on refinining my own analysis (I'm a retired professional systems analyst) and recommendations, to be posted late tonight to give me a better chance of catching Castle's eye first thing Monday morning (with any luck). That'll appear separate from the guide update.
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So....can you get Teir 1 salvage by hopping around and "arresting" the oppressed Bloody Bay?
I'm a lvl 50 Blaster........in game......btw.
"I'm not scared of anyone or anything Angie. Isn't that the way life should be?"
Jack Hawksmoor, The Authority.
I agree 100% with the disparity issues, and here's the big reason: the lists are uneven. I'm not just talking about "oh, look how many groups there are on that list vs that list", I'm talking about level range disparity. Not to mention certain nonsenical things from an ingame standpoint (for example: why the heck do NEMESIS, RIKTI, Council, Freaskshow, Skyraiders, and Malta/Knives drop magic at ALL?). The disparity is that there is not a balance of groups that properly oppose each other on each list. Let's take a look at what each list NEEDS to have on it:
1) Level 1-50 group.
2) Level range groups that complement/oppose those on other lists.
3) Remaining Niches.
So, for starters, let's look at the 1-50 requirement. We don't really need a "mixed" 1-50 so long as both Tech and Magic have a 1-50 group. So, STEP ONE:
Magic only: Circle of Throns
Tech only: Council
Mixed: nothin' yet.
Now heroes as well as villains have a group they can fight throughout their entire careers, selectively should they choose through newspaer/policeband or contacts, and no worries about disparity of wrong drop types.
Moving on, we come to opposed groupings. Let's get some examples:
1-10ish: Hellions and Skulls for Magic only [really, they're like one group with three badges] vs Clockwork for Tech only.
11-30ish: Outcasts and Tsoo vs Family and Skyraiders.
31ish-53: Carnival vs Malta.
Anther example of oppositions include Luddite/Goldbrickers. There are plenty examples of niche groups, like the Banished Panthenon and the Nemesis Army. Just using that map alone is an easy way to properly set up a Tech Only / Magic Only balance, and regardless of whatever get anything else wherever you want it. The core thing is that a balance between the "only" lists is necessary both for level-range specific groups and panlevel groups. For everything else that's come, I shocked, amazed, stunned, baffled, befuddled, stupefied...you get the idea...that the devs dropped the ball on this. The number of checkpoints for this list of who-drops-what goes all the way from story to game to balance to 'what-the-heck-was-I-on-when-I-wrote-THAT?' Please, 500%, let's get a fix here so we don't have to worry (at least not nearly as much) about drop disparity.
Just got word from Positron via PM (in reply to one I sent him about this topic), as follows:
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I went through and re-did all the villain groups salvage this morning, as the bugs pointed out in the thread on training room was showing me the way I was doing it wasn't working.
This should alleviate a lot of concerns when it hits.
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This sounds like very good news, and I just wanted to share it with all of you So. Get back to testing and let's figure this thing out! 
And thanks, Pos!
Sweet. I just finished a minor update to this guide, but I'll hold off for a couple of days. This is the best news I've gotten all day, the first thing out of all of the economic analysis I've written for this issue that they're actually going to respond to. I'm relieved.
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So....can you get Teir 1 salvage by hopping around and "arresting" the oppressed Bloody Bay?
I'm a lvl 50 Blaster........in game......btw.
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Yes, I am quoting myself- anyone know the answer to the quoted question?
Thanx.
"I'm not scared of anyone or anything Angie. Isn't that the way life should be?"
Jack Hawksmoor, The Authority.
There are two kinds of invention salvage: tech, and magic. This distinction has NOTHING to do with which characters can use that salvage in their recipes, nor which recipes they can make. The distinction between tech invention salvage and magical invention salvage relates only to which loot table (or tables) any given NPC uses. Whether defeated NPCs drop tech invention salvage, magical invention salvage, or a mix of both, is determined entirely by their faction:
<ul type="square">[*]Magic Only: Banished Pantheon, Cabal, Cap au Diable Gremlins, Carnival of Souls, Circle of Thorns, Coralax, Devouring Earth, Fir Bolg, Hellions, Legacy Chain, Luddites, Red Caps, Skulls, Slag Golems, Snakes, Spectral Pirates, Tuatha de Danaan, Tsoo, Wailers.[*]Tech Only: Arachnoids, Clockwork, Longbow, Rularuu.[*]Mixture of Magic and Tech: Arachnos, Cage Consortium Guards, Council, Crey, Family, Ghosts, Goldbrickers, Freakshow, Infected, Knives of Artemis, Lanaruu, Lost, Malta, Minions of Igneous, Mooks, Nemesis Army, Paragon Police Department, Rikti, Rogue Isles Police, Scrapyarders, Shivans, Sky Raiders, Trolls, Turrets, Vahzilok, Void Hunters, Wyvern.[/list]Within each type of invention salvage, there are three levels of rarity: common, uncommon, and rare. Within each combination of rarity and type of invention salvage, there are three "tiers" that correspond to different level ranges, which I am calling tier 1, tier 2, and tier 3. You can see this variation in the order in which salvage is listed on the consignment house. There are 6 types of salvage in each tier, rarity, and type, and they are clustered together. So, for example, of the 18 kinds of common tech salvage, the first six are tier 1, the second six are tier 2, and the last six are tier 3. They are, in the order they're listed at Wentworth's and on the Black Market:
Tech Common:<ul type="square">[*]Tier 1: Human Blood Sample, Inanimate Carbon Rod, Computer Virus, Simple Chemical, Brass, Boresight.[*]Tier 2: Improvised Cybernetic, Inert Gas, Scientific Theory, Circuit Board, Stabilized Mutant Genome, Iron.[*]Tier 3: Kinetic Weapon, Temporal Analyzer, Ceramic Armor Plate, Hydraulic Piston, Silver, Mathematical Proof.[/list]Tech Uncommon:<ul type="square">[*]Tier 1: Mutant Blood Sample, Heavy Water, Daemon Program, Chemical Formula, Polycarbon, Scope.[*]Tier 2: Commercial Cybernetic, Corrosive Gas, Scientific Law, Data Drive, Mutant DNA Strand, Steel.[*]Tier 3: Energy Weapon, Temporal Tracer, Titanium Shard, Pneumatic Piston, Gold, Chaos Theorem.[/list]Tech Rare:<ul type="square">[*]Tier 1: Alien Blood Sample, Enriched Plutonium, Source Code, Complex Chemical Formula, Plasma Converter, Heads Up Display.[*]Tier 2: Military Cybernetic, Reactive Gas, Conspiratorial Evidence, Holographic Memory, Mutating Genome, Impervium.[*]Tier 3: Photonic Weapon, Chronal Skip, Rikti Alloy, Positronic Matrix, Platinum, Synthetic Intelligence Unit.[/list]Magic Common:<ul type="square">[*]Tier 1: Ancient Artifact, Luck Charm, Clockwork Winder, Spell Scroll, Spiritual Essence, Runebound Armor.[*]Tier 2: Masterwork Weapon, Rune, Demonic Blood Sample, Alchemical Silver, Ancient Bone, Spell Ink.[*]Tier 3: Nonmelting Ice, Fortune, Ruby, Demonic Threat Report, Regenerating Flesh, Spirit Thorn.[/list]Magic Uncommon:<ul type="square">[*]Tier 1: Unearthed Relic, Temporal Sands, Clockwork Gear, Volume of the Obsidium Liborum, Psionic Ectoplasm, Soulbound Armor.[*]Tier 2: Ensorcelled Weapon, Symbol, Blood of the Incarnate, Alchemical Gold, Carnival of Shadows Mask, Living Tattoo.[*]Tier 3: Unquenchable Flame, Destiny, Sapphire, Psionic Threat Report, Bleeding Stone, Thorn Tree Vine.[/list]Magic Rare:<ul type="square">[*]Tier 1: Lament Box, Strand of Fate, Psionicly Charged Brass, Page from the Malleus Mundi, Psionic Manifestation, Symbiotic Armor.[*]Tier 2: Deific Weapon, Empowered Sigil, Black Blood of the Earth, Enchanted Impervium, Mu Vestment, Soul Trapped Gem.[*]Tier 3: Pangean Soil, Prophesy, Diamond, Magical Conspiracy, Essence of the Furies, Hamidon Goo.[/list]Which tier of salvage is dropped is determined entirely by the level of the NPC you defeat. You can defeat any NPC from 4 levels below you and up, that is to say, any NPC that you would also get experience and/or influence or infamy for defeating. If you are exemplared or malefactored down to a lower level, you receive salvage at the enemy's level (but, reportedly, recipes at your own level). The tiers work like this:
<ul type="square">[*]NPC level 4-19: Tier 1 only.[*]NPC level 20-29: Mixture of Tier 1 and Tier 2.[*]NPC level 30-39: Mixture of Tier 2 and Tier 3.[*]NPC level 40-54: Tier 3 only.[/list]Example: Let's say that you're looking for Demonic Blood Samples. That's a Magic, Common, Tier 2 invention salvage item. This has a chance of dropping from any level 20 to 39 NPC that you can possibly get XP, inf, or both from except those that are listed as Tech Only, which in that level range means basically everybody but Longbow. However, since any of the NPCs listed as both tech and magical will drop half tech and half magical, your chances of getting a Demonic Blood Sample are doubled if you defeat NPCs that are listed under Magic only.