Emmert on Lessons Learned From City of Heroes
By
Aeoleon,
Posted on: 2006-11-01 14:55 in Base Construction
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It is funny that after State's acknowledges that there were some flaws on how they designed and implemented the base system...that people are still attacking him on his semantics. Folks, this is why State's doesn't post as much as he used to! He is the designer...not the PR guy.
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Emmert is a college graduate with a background in Classics studies and a published designer in 'Pen & Paper' RPGs that are all about communicating through text and 'semantics'. It's one thing to cut a break for your average game forum poster who may not have more than public high school English courses under their belt, but it doesn't take a M.A. in Marketing to get one's point across, especially when the person in question has a background in reading and writing.
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"Real value" vs. "Percieved value"...blah, blah.
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No one expects you or any other player to speak clearly or definitively on this esoteric subject. However, if Emmert has trouble communicating "Real value" vs. "Perceived value" without seeming as if he is suffering some repeated stumbles, then that can be a real problem. The top tier people in a company that designs games for profit should be able to hold a fairly complex conversation on that comfortably. Does that heightened expectation of Emmert in comparison to players seem unfair? It's not. You and other players don't have to understand and articulate the nuances of this subject because it's not your job to do so. I wouldn't even expect average marketers to speak that definitively on this esoteric subject because of the tendency in that field to reduce most everything into 'Perceived Value'. It is, however, an essential part of a game designers job.
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It is a video game after all, there is nothing real here. He knows what he is working on is a game and entertainment. Therefore what is important is what is percieved by the players. In a sense, the percieved value of a base is really all that matters. State's knows this.
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I think you've confused different definitions of "perceive". In contrast, I don't think that Emmert is confused about what definition of "perceive" is properly in play here, thankfully.
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He says they didn't design it well. Now you want to beat him up because of the words he used? Give me a break!
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I agree that that simple, practical subjects shouldn't get mired in semantics. The more complex a topic, though, the more word choice plays a vital part in expression. This back and forth on Emmert's speech and Base comments is not the same as people getting their nose out of joint because certain devs continue to refer to the "Devices" powerset as "Gadgets".
I think if you scan back over the comments that the majority of people are not 'beating him up', but they are seriously discussing the subject, which means there's going to be less fawning and general cheerleading wankery. That's what happens in serious discussions between adults.
I get so tired of hearing people say "get rid of Rent, we want it all..FOR FREE!" maybe its because I'm old but I like to EARN everything I get. I think it should be exactly the way it is (minus any small changes to what items/rooms) It is a feature for you if want to earn something. I read a post that said they just wanted to start a SG, build the entire base for free and be done with it. That is absurd to me. I work hard in life and earn what I get, this game should be no different. If anything, it should be teaching young people how to save and manage funds. If you dont like your SG or the way it operates...guess what? Go to the Registrar and find a SG you like or better yet...start your own! We have 6 people in our SG and we have been playing a year with about the same people and we have an entirely functional base and 1.5 million toward a plot ugrade, it can easily be done. Keep it the way it is...EARN IT!
-Listen to my Light!
-MA #1065 "Star Struck"
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If anything, it should be teaching young people how to save and manage funds.
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Wait, what?
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I get so tired of hearing people say "get rid of Rent, we want it all..FOR FREE!"
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This is odd, since nobody is actually saying that.
@Mindshadow
I already earn the right to have a superbase. I bought both COH and COV and the GvE edition.
I pay my monthly (yearly actually) fee to play.
Paying rent is an 'in-game' membership to be in the SuperGroup 'club'. If I fail to pay my rent, I get locked out of my 'clubhouse'.
I don't think this is right.
I think getting rid of rent would expand the number of super groups.
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I pay my monthly (yearly actually) fee to play.
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This is perhaps one of the big annoyances with rent; we already pay "rent", it's fifteen real dollars a month. Sure, other games have in-game economy sinks, but there's a reason we are here and not there. Or, at least, there WAS.
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I think getting rid of rent would expand the number of super groups
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I strongly disagree here. I think people are going to play the way they want to play, with the people they want to play with. Any supergroup founded solely on the principle of "woot! superbase!" is doomed to implode eventually.
One of the failing points of bases was that it didn't actually cause supergroups to coalesce into grand alliances, it just meant that all the small supergroups had to jump through a lot of hoops to access the new functionality, and many found it not worth the bother.
Eliminating rent wouldn't create new supergroups, it would allow the smaller supergroups already in the game to more easily build super-bases, and reduce the annoyance factor that may be keeping them away from this functionality.
@Mindshadow
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Keep it the way it is...EARN IT!
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Here's your crank sign, wear it proudly.
This is a game, an amusement, a hobby. If generating prestige will pay my real-life mortgage, fine, I'll put in the hours, but I already work hard enough in real life.
I have a nice personal base on Virtue that I've been working on for four months or so that's cost me a million prestige (180,000 of that was a gift from the double xp weekend because I have nine alts in my personal SG).
It would be terrific if each hero could instantly get a million prestige when he/she signs up to create a personal base. Just because I had to wait four months to get my base built doesn't mean everyone should have to. I would much rather have done it all in a day.
Bruce Wayne didn't have to earn a dime to create his Batcave, nor did Superman build his Fortress of Solitude from a reporter's pay. The Avengers Mansion was donated by Tony Stark.
Goldbrick 50 inv/ss tank
Other 50s: Power Beam, Rocky Mantle, STORMIE Agent, Matchless, Major Will, Knightmayor, Femstone, Space Maureen, Crimebuster Ako, Dr. Twilight, Doc Champion, American Gold Eagle
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Keep it the way it is...EARN IT!
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Here's your crank sign, wear it proudly.
This is a game, an amusement, a hobby. If generating prestige will pay my real-life mortgage, fine, I'll put in the hours, but I already work hard enough in real life.
I have a nice personal base on Virtue that I've been working on for four months or so that's cost me a million prestige (180,000 of that was a gift from the double xp weekend because I have nine alts in my personal SG).
It would be terrific if each hero could instantly get a million prestige when he/she signs up to create a personal base. Just because I had to wait four months to get my base built doesn't mean everyone should have to. I would much rather have done it all in a day.
Bruce Wayne didn't have to earn a dime to create his Batcave, nor did Superman build his Fortress of Solitude from a reporter's pay. The Avengers Mansion was donated by Tony Stark.
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You know, I wouldn't have a problem with prestige, if they were to make it a little bit more, Im not going to say everytime you kill someone you should earn like 10,000 prestige, but 100+ for minions would not be half bad either. To sum it up, a general increase would make it alot more fun for me, and no, im not talking about a 25% increase, im talking 100%. 
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One of the failing points of bases was that it didn't actually cause supergroups to coalesce into grand alliances, it just meant that all the small supergroups had to jump through a lot of hoops to access the new functionality, and many found it not worth the bother.
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And there is the heart of the problem.
At the end of the day, there still aren't the large server-moving SGs that the Devs had envisioned. Why?
I think some debates such as this thread are partly an effort to separate cause from effect.
For example, I don't think everything is too expensive and don't think we need more Prestige per kill. I think the perception of too little prestige is a *result* of the lack of really big SGs, not a *cause of* the lack of SGs. (Note: I believe some individual items/rooms are not cost balanced. I'm saying the general costs seem about right.)
On the other hand, Bases are by themselves a detriment to really big SGs. As a SG gets more worth, in this case assets in the form of Prestige, Salvage (including crafted items) and a well-built base, it becomes harder to share that with more people you don't know. The lack of base usage is a result of the SG design. SG design did not evolve at all to accomodate bases, and that's what really has to be looked at, IMHO.
I don't think the cause of the problem is a general dissatisfaction with the base system, that attitude is a result. I think the cause is that it's too hard for the base system's intended audience to use them fully. Or in some cases, impossible to use the base functions because raids are too buggy and the IOP trial is MIA, but that's going on a tangent...
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I get so tired of hearing people say "get rid of Rent, we want it all..FOR FREE!" ... Keep it the way it is...EARN IT!
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(a) Nobody is saying that we want bases handed to us for free. You lose a lot of credibility by suggesting otherwise.
(b) We -are- earning it. We're playing in SG mode day in and day out, accumulating prestige so we can buy things for the base. Rent erases these earnings.
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I get so tired of hearing people say "get rid of Rent, we want it all..FOR FREE!" maybe its because I'm old but I like to EARN everything I get.
[/ QUOTE ]When the game first came out, everything in the game was free*, and it worked fine. Speaking as someone who hates MMO's, it was one of the biggest draws of the game for me. Let's be realistic here - no matter how much unrelated grinding you're required to do to obtain something for your base, you've done nothing more to earn it than if it was given away for starting a base.
If a resource is scarce, you should have to work for it. It makes sense to look down your nose at someone who doesn't want to work as a spoiled kid squandering the family fortune or a Communist depending on the support of a inefficient state. But base details are just mathematical entities used for artistic expression. It makes no more sense to have to earn them than it does to have to win musical notes by killing Wailers. Since we can't directly improve the game engine, the source of bases, we earn our bases only by experimenting and learning to design aesthetically pleasing ones. Any other requirements are just an arbitrary nuisance tax.
If any supers in comic books or movies were ever shown farming Prestige to get bases, there'd be an in-character reason for high Prestige costs and Upkeep. As it stands, anyone who seriously thinks they're "earning" their base by killing Freaks is just being willingly fooled by the developers.
*except Enhancements, of course. But they change your character quantitatively, not qualitatively; they're inexpensive; and they affect your character's skill level, something it makes lots of sense to work to improve by adventuring.
Even if rent was reduced and/or Prestige earning power increased, I still find little utility in bases and they really have not increased the amount of content I experience. Not sure what I expected but for the year they have been out, I would not have noticed their absence if they had gone away. Rent and amount of prestige earned is only part of the problem I'm concerned with when it comes to bases.
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Good in theory, not so much in reality.
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Bingo. That pretty much nails our design on bases. We're slowly but surely making additions and changes based on feedback & data. We'll get there...I think bases are a case study where a design didn't mesh well with actual gameplay! For some odd reason, some posters have thought my Serious Games speech blamed the players; heck no! Bases are 100% a DESIGN problem. Not a player problem.
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I want to re-iterate a post I made somewhere else that while bases aren't perfect,and certainly not everyone here likes them - everyone in my SG, our coalitions, and many of my regular friends, all very much appreciate bases - for us they have totally enhanced gameplay and its enjoyability - and we make maximum use of empowerment stations, enh and insp storage, and most especially telepads.
I/we have since started alt SGs and gone through the building process again - and always appreciate our achievements when we get the next upgrade.
I think allowing personal rooms/lockers, as well as a lowering of costs for major upgrade and a reasonale rent adjustment, will go a long way to pleasing the disgruntled.
but from all of us that use and love bases - thanks!!!