[ QUOTE ]
The point is, as long as you're patient enough to explain yourself again. And again. And Again. It's all gravy.
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With the tradition of floating heads, and of boxes that read: "Wolverine. Admantium claws and unbreakable bones made of the same material. Mutant regeneration factor. He's the best at what he does." ... this PoV is pretty genre, true.
As a rule though, stuff you have to explain over and over is probably not a good concept; fans of comic book superheroes do not have quite the same attention spans as do fans of, say, Herbert's Dune series. ^_^
Choosing a Controller V2 | Splattrollers | Plant/Rad | Fire/Storm | Mind/Emp & Mind/Rad
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Being a Healer | The word Necessary | Natural Concept Characters
You weren't talking about Manticore, but you were dismissing the whole Natural Concept with Teleportation as "Nonviable". I disagree. There is a precedent, i.e. Manticore, that shows it -is- a viable Natural Concept to take Teleportation. As you mentioned, in the comics (which I haven't read all of them, in their wrappings still), Manticore doesn't use his Teleportation to move around in-combat, its solely used to get him around to where he is needed.
I see nothing wrong with any Natural Concept character, to be given access to Friend and Self Teleportation via the medical system by the Freedom Corps due to lack of "Powered" travel. I guess what it is, is that I'm taking offense at your choice of the word "Nonviable" when there's been a precedent.
I know if I was some Techy, and I had a friend who is "Natural Concept", I would definitely try and make a device he could use to help him keep up with my more sophisticated devices. Ya know, something like Manticore's device which if I recall properly was given to him by Positron (Could be mistaken on this part, but I do recall that his device to access the medical teleportation system came from one of the other Freedom Phalanx).
I mean, its great to have a Natural Concept character, but the thing is Paragon City has so many Tech, and Magic characters I would find it unlikely a Natural Concept would not make a friend who could give him some device, or magic item that gave him -one- power outside of his Natural Concept, and this wouldn't break the Natural Concept. Heck, it could become part of more background, you could explain away your travel power as a gift of one of your in-game friends.
SageGaspar, no matter how "high-tech" his arrows are, its his true-aim that makes him Natural. Just because I have some new-fangled Explosive Arrow doesn't mean I have more than a snow ball's chance in hell of getting a direct hit with it. IF he had some kind of high-tech bow where it just reads his thoughts and does the aiming for him, then ya I could tend towards him being Tech instead, but since he actually needs to hone his skills, I can't.
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I think this is a good guide for playing a "natural human" for sure ^^
I will however, also agree with those saying that there is a great deal more to the Natural origin than you are allowing for - even if they game itself didn't agree with us - in a comic book sense if you can justify it, it works.
That said, as someone else mentioned - quality of backstory is important in this.
Example - My level 50 is a Katana/SR natural character. She has no travel power - and doesn't have fitness because one of her big weaknesses is... she's operating at an incredible level of speed and power for a normal person - so she wears out easily.
She's also a catgirl; its just how she was born, with cat ears and a tail. Its not a mutation, because her parents, and their, parents, and their parents parents going all the way back to their oldest known ancestors had this trait.
Thats one thing people have to remember about CoX origins - they overlap *constantly*.
Batman to use an example, could be Natural or Tech quite easily. He's totally capable without his gadgets - but he has an absolutely enormous number of them, and uses them to great effect - the point where he couldn't survive some situations without them.
Here's another way to look at things; notice DO enhancements how they overlap with 2 other things potentially?
Natural overlaps with Magic and Tech.
The reasoning, is that a hero with a magic sword could be classified as Magic OR Natural. It could be either, depending on how dependant on that item you want them to be. Is the sword just handy? Or is it what gives them all their abilities? Are they still able to fight without it? Or are they helpless?
Same goes for tech. Is a character with an assault rifle Natural, or Tech? I guarantee a rifle isn't a natural part of the human body (for that matter - neither is a sword); but you can of course claim that most of the power resides in the person (aiming, running, dodging, etc...)
A sword is in fact, a form of very very basic technology - so technically a sword weilder using no high tech gadgets or anything (if you really wanna stretch it) could be tech based. Most people don't think of it that way - but it can be done; and logically so.
So yes - excellent post ^^ I merely wish to expand your view of the origins en total.
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...you were dismissing the whole Natural Concept with Teleportation as "Nonviable".
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No.
Again, please try to see the difference between: "A natural concept character (like Manticore?) is not workable with the teleport power," and "Teleport is not a workable power with a natural concept (like Manticore?)."[1]
Yes, having teleport weakens Manticore conceptually (to the extent he's a natural concept character). But the question of what makes character concepts bad is way more complex, and not something I was interested in discussing.
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There is a precedent, i.e. Manticore, that shows it -is- a viable Natural Concept to take Teleportation.
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Even if Manticore was able to set any sort of meaningful precedent in the genre (he can't), whether teleportation belongs on a natural concept character has nothing to do with any isolated precedent-- it has to do with the definition of natural concept characters, which I've offered as carefully and integrally as I can. To argue that teleportation is good on natural concept characters, you'd have to argue with my definition. Manticore is not necessarily even an example, much less the defintion, of natural concept.
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I see nothing wrong with any Natural Concept character, to be given access to Friend and Self Teleportation via the medical system by the Freedom Corps due to lack of "Powered" travel. I guess what it is, is that I'm taking offense at your choice of the word "Nonviable" ...
[/ QUOTE ]
There's nothing wrong with some characters being given unrestricted access to the teleportation grid. But pretending the addition leaves the character an undiluted natural concept character is ridiculous-- it reveals a basic misunderstanding about what a natural concept character is. If such a character were still a good natural concept, so would be Iron Man.
And I *especially* don't get why you'd take offense at this.
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I think this is a good guide for playing a "natural human" for sure ^^
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Actually, it could apply to somebody who was alien; the main thing is that they would have human-equivalent technology and intellectual and physical prowess, to the point that we could identify with the character and what he accomplishes. Good examples of this is can be found in the Star Trek setting.
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Thats one thing people have to remember about CoX origins - they overlap *constantly*.
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That's true, and likewise, nothing in the comics themselves falls discretely into some five imaginary categories with zero overlap. Batman's obviously working borderline super-tech equipment. Kane from Kung Fu obviously practices abilities that border on mystical. The essence of the natural concept, however, is (unlike many other motifs in comics, including the ones pretty well represented by some of the other origins) positively defined by what it excludes.
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I will however, also agree with those saying that there is a great deal more to the Natural origin than you are allowing for - even if they game itself didn't agree with us - in a comic book sense if you can justify it, it works.
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The current Natural Origin includes flying aliens with lazer-beam eyes and coruscating energy fields. It doesn't identify *any* distinctive category in the comics genre, at all, and indeed no longer even functions as a contrastive category in CoH the way it was obviously meant to. It doesn't relate to anything identifiable in the comics, or any other cool, integrating ideas of its own. It's so broadly defined, that it's nearly meaningless, and certainly useless for any creative purposes.
Meanwhile, natural concept characters are extremely interesting and evocative, and extremely genre. Which is why I tried to bring an awareness of them to a guide, with careful definitions and examples. I realize there are those for whom "anything goes!" is itself both the means and ultimate aim of 'creativity.' But obviously I didn't write a guide on how to develop a character concept for which "anything goes!" That'd be just as dumb as propounding a philosophy well-encapsulated by the phrase: "Do as thou wilt."
I hope I don't seem overly strident, but really, I'm vaguely annoyed with all the posts that amount to nothing but thinly veiled dismay over something I didn't do (try to tell people how to play), and/or reminders that the game mechanics don't prevent power selections based on origin choice.
[1]Edit: Wrding of the contrast more uniform.
Choosing a Controller V2 | Splattrollers | Plant/Rad | Fire/Storm | Mind/Emp & Mind/Rad
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Being a Healer | The word Necessary | Natural Concept Characters
Any time you profess an opinion which, intentionally or otherwise, invades someone's 'personal space' in some way - you will recieve response based on that. Its just the way it is.
What you define as "useless for creative purposes" is totally useful to someone else - creativity is purely about... creation. While I agree, a philosophy of "do as you would" isn't a very good philosophy - this isn't philosophy. This is a computer game; and even if it were instead something about say... comic writing (where "origin" in this form would never even come up - remember, you're arguing a complete abstract of an abstract concept) - creativity is how you define it.
I'm just saying that, if you step on people's conceptual toes by trying to argue that we're playing natural in a manner not to your liking - you have to be prepared to take some flak for it.
I dunno, maybe some of us are oversensative - but if we are, theres a reason for it; I've seen, in the last six months, many many posts of "There's no way you can be natural, no human could do that!"
No human could possibly jump from a standing position as high as we can, even without sprint. Merely by playing the game we've already broken that.
Origin is *intentionally* broad and vague - the less well defined it is - the better.
That said - It really is a good guide for a specific *type* of natural character; I'm not bashing that at all. You've definitely got a feel for what you're trying to do.
Nice job on the guide, first of all. . .
Secondly, on the concept of "natural" characters. I disagree that Natural is a point of view. A Natural character is one who has, on the whole, normal powers for their race. A Peacebringer is Natural because all Kheldians have similar powers. But a magical alien is Magic, because, well, he uses magic. Even if his whole race does, it is still magic. Natural and Alien are NOT always the same thing.
Your guide is an excellent one for creating HUMAN natural characters. But I feel it should be clarified that is what it is for. I kind of see two sides to the Natural origin, one that is humans with "natural" abilities and one that is anything that CAN'T be another origin. My villain, Schizophrenias, is natural, but only because he is a physical manifestation of insanity created by mutant powers (but is not Mutant since he is not a mutant himself). His powers are not very natural feeling (mind control, thorny assault, flight. . .) and if there was something better, I'd use it, but bizarre concepts like that need an origin they can use. Note that if an Alien origin existed (a bad idea since there are aliens of all origins), I would still have to make Schizophrenias a Natural because there would still be nothing else possible.
. . . I have no idea what my point is.
[ QUOTE ]
There's nothing wrong with some characters being given unrestricted access to the teleportation grid. But pretending the addition leaves the character an undiluted natural concept character is ridiculous-- it reveals a basic misunderstanding about what a natural concept character is. If such a character were still a good natural concept, so would be Iron Man.
[/ QUOTE ]
Iron Man's "powers" come from his suit fully, he can't use Power Blasts without it, he can't use robotic strength without it, etc. To have a single "Power" come from a device doesn't dilute Natural Concept character's in a game such as CoX.
Like I had said, Manticore doesn't rely on technology giving his archery skills, yah he uses some high-tech arrows but he still has to deliver those arrows through his own skill and training. He has only one power outside of his Natural Concept, which is something you can not compare Iron Man to.
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And I *especially* don't get why you'd take offense at this.
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If you had decided to use Infrequent, or Isolated, or Rare, or Uncommon (Or some other word like these), and describe -why- not everyone would have access to a single power/device outside of their concept (Refering to Teleport and Flight). I wouldn't have taken offense.
In the CoX world, should every single Natural Concept character have a power outside of their concept? I would definitely say no.
In the CoX world, would all Natural Concept character's be unable to get access to one power outside of their concept? Again, I would definitely say no.
So, that tells me some powers would be more Uncommon to Natural Concept character's (Such as Teleportation and Flight), but to say they are Nonviable is going a bit too far.
Remember, in the CoX world, Nemesis created his army of robots back in 1945. Paragon City has all of the war-walls (thanks to the Rikti). Unlike our world, Technology is far more potent and prolific in CoX (as is Magic). Which is why I take offense to Teleport/Flight as being nonviable for a Natural Concept character.
If you want some natural purist who never groups with non-Natural's, then perhaps I could see Teleport/Flight as nonviable.
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What you define as "useless for creative purposes" is totally useful to someone else
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No. I described, not defined, it that way because of the observable fact that it carries no objective meaning. Ink blots and nonsense syllables would be just as "totally useful."
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creativity is purely about... creation.
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I disagree quite strongly. Creativity in its salient sense is about creating something interesting and communicable. In your sense, I'm being 'creative' when I sling any five random letters together. ZZOMG. Most people expect more than that. In fact, I tend to think that clinging to meaninglessly broad terms *inhibits* creativity in pretty much everyone. Imagination has to find solid footing to start erecting its visions.
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Origin is *intentionally* broad and vague - the less well defined it is - the better.
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What can you possibly be hoping for out of less-clear terms, except misunderstanding? Inspiration can occasionally have roots in misunderstanding. But creativity requires, more than anything else, clarity.
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I'm just saying that, if you step on people's conceptual toes by trying to argue that we're playing natural in a manner not to your liking - you have to be prepared to take some flak for it. I dunno, maybe some of us are oversensative - but if we are, theres a reason for it; I've seen, in the last six months, many many posts of "There's no way you can be natural, no human could do that!"
[/ QUOTE ]
Since I definitely didn't say anything like that, I tend to wonder if you were deliberately misreading those other folks, too. You owe me and probably some of them an apology. And please don't bother objecting that that's "just how you read it." This idea that I: argued that you're playing natural in a manner not to my liking is a pure figment of your imagination.
Choosing a Controller V2 | Splattrollers | Plant/Rad | Fire/Storm | Mind/Emp & Mind/Rad
Weird Controller Powers | Conf & XP/Time | Controller Damage
Being a Healer | The word Necessary | Natural Concept Characters
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I feel it should be clarified that is what it is for.
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It's already clear that the guide refers to natural concept characters, not natural origins. I make that distinction in the introduction, and build on that idea very carefully and explicitly start to finish. It's completely self-evident. I think you must have some other objection you want to make, but I suspect it's also wide of the subject of this guide.
Choosing a Controller V2 | Splattrollers | Plant/Rad | Fire/Storm | Mind/Emp & Mind/Rad
Weird Controller Powers | Conf & XP/Time | Controller Damage
Being a Healer | The word Necessary | Natural Concept Characters
[ QUOTE ]
Iron Man's "powers" come from his suit fully... To have a single "Power" come from a device doesn't dilute Natural Concept character's in a game such as CoX. ... He has only one power outside of his Natural Concept, which is something you can not compare Iron Man to.
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Iron man's suit is a single conceptual power, that does several things. Doing them requires some superscience hardware, personal skills, and technical expertise.
A teleport controlling gadget is a single conceptual power that can do several things (teleporting for movement, teleportation for defense & escape, teleporting people to safety, teleporting objects into people as an attack, teleporting foes into your clutches. And BTW, the TP pool is sure to provide at least 3 out of these 5 to toons in CoH who take it for movement.) Doing them requires some superscience hardware, personal skills, and technical expertise.
They're both exotic science powers. And either exotic science powers are good on natural concept charcters, or they aren't. They aren't. They weaken the natural concept character a lot. The comparison's a good one, and the only real difference is a question of frequency of use-- but teleportation doesn't have overshadow all other abilities to dilute a natural concept character-- in the same sense, a teaspoon of arsenic can poison a gallon of milk; it doesn't take a gallon of arsenic.
[ QUOTE ]
If you had decided to use Infrequent, or Isolated, or Rare, or Uncommon (Or some other word like these), and describe -why- not everyone would have access to a single power/device outside of their concept (Refering to Teleport and Flight). I wouldn't have taken offense.
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I can't find the explanation of what you took offense at. At the risk of pointing out the obvious, allow me to observe a couple things. You cannot meaningfully take offense at criticism of anything except yourself. You are not a natural concept character, nor are you a natural origin character, nor any other character in any fiction. You are certainly not teleportation. Equally important to note, to say something doesn't work in a given context (even mistakenly, which I'm not) is not necessarily a criticism-- saying my honda doesn't work at the bottom of the river is not a criticism of my honda.
With that in mind, I'd still like to know if I've offended you.
And, I didn't mean isolated or rare. I mean, it doesn't work.
Choosing a Controller V2 | Splattrollers | Plant/Rad | Fire/Storm | Mind/Emp & Mind/Rad
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Being a Healer | The word Necessary | Natural Concept Characters
Mm, perhaps I'm using the wrong wording still. I dislike (perhaps this is the word I shoulda used) having it said that for Natural Concept's taking Teleport is nonviable, and would weaken their concept.
While in our world, it may be exotic science for Teleportation, but it surely does not seem that way in the CoX world. Remember, Dimension traveling -started- in 1988. Now, in the present day of CoX all Hero's have access to Portal Corps, even sidekicks at any level have that same access.
To put something as 'simple' as teleportation as Nonviable just seems extreme to me when we are looking at the world of CoX.
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[ QUOTE ]
While in our world, it may be exotic science for Teleportation, but it surely does not seem that way in the CoX world. Remember, Dimension traveling -started- in 1988. Now, in the present day of CoX all Hero's have access to Portal Corps, even sidekicks at any level have that same access.
To put something as 'simple' as teleportation as Nonviable just seems extreme to me when we are looking at the world of CoX.
[/ QUOTE ]
I have to agree. Teleporting is as common in Paragon City as driving a car or using the Internet is here in the "real world". If there were a public teleportation system, I wouldn't say using it would any more disqualify you as a Natural Concept than taking the bus or riding the tram would disquality you as a Natural Concept.
The bigger issue is that the Medical Transporter System is PRESUMABLY for emergency use only, and thus can't be used by just anyone who feels like popping to the store for a quart of milk. In such a case, there could be two explanations for an otherwise ordinary Natural Concept hero using it: 1) He has hacked into the system, using his natural skill with computers or 2) Paragon City actually provides "passes" to heroes of a high enough Security Level, for the right price.
The former implies that your character is a master hacker, which doesn't disqualify the Natural Concept but may not fit your SPECIFIC concept. The latter, OTOH, requires a pretty big assumption, but does imply that you could get it EVENTUALLY, if you put it off long enough. After all, Manticore supposedly has permission to use the teleport system, so while it's apparently very rare, it does happen. So you could say that your character eventually "earns the right" to use the Teleport System since he has no other super travel power.
Enantiodromos's objection is that in order to be able to Teleport, you have to understand how teleportation works, and thus build a device to let you do that. But you don't have to understand how the Medical Teleporters work, all you have to understand is how the INTERFACE to the Medical Teleporters work. So you can reprogram them to send you where you want. Just like you don't have to understand exactly how internal combustion works to drive a car.
My natural toons are amazingly born with their skills. And they're still human!!
I would contend that Faith, true Faith as it were is another fine example of how a character can still be natural in origin. Though some might contend that it would be a magic origin, I contend that Faith is based largely on personal belief, and so is dervitive of the individual. Since all persons can have faith, some just more mightily so, I say Faith would be an example of a natural hero.
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It's already clear that the guide refers to natural concept characters, not natural origins. I make that distinction in the introduction, and build on that idea very carefully and explicitly start to finish. It's completely self-evident. I think you must have some other objection you want to make, but I suspect it's also wide of the subject of this guide.
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As I said in my first post in this thread, you do make a point to differentiate the "concept" from the "origin". Which, again, I greatly appreciate. However, I've noticed that despite that excellent beginning, you still seem to be insisting that even though you are CALLING it something different, this is still the RIGHT definition of "Natural", and everything else is wrong. "The devs found a loophole", you seem to be saying, "and I accept that, but this is what they really MEANT."
The issue here is that "Superior Human" is NOT "Natural". The two do not equate to each other. "Superior Human" was the name of the "non-super" Origin back when Origins determined your powers, and I'm quite sure that's what you are referring to. It's reasonable to assume that "Superior Human" turned into "Natural" when the Archetype system was introduced, and I'm sure that's what you're basing this entire position on. I can understand that.
However, the Origins under the old system should NOT be regarded as exactly the same as the Origins under the new system because, quite simply, Origins cannot determine what your powers are. For a Mutant or a Magic or a Cybernetics that is not really a big deal, because those Origins weren't really defined all that well anyway. Powers were divided into two categories, "powers" and "skills", and you got a separate mix of powers and skills, with different maximum levels in each depending on your choice of Origin.
Superior Human, though, was the only one that limited you to ONLY skills, (or maybe you could take one or two "super" powers, the details aren't really important) all the others let you take any power or skill, only limiting how far you could take them. The limiting factor was effectively random, the devs picked something that sounded good, but honestly, they were just making it up, and eventually they realized that no matter how much they tweaked it, the players wouldn't innately understand what was supposed to be strong and what was supposed to be weak anyway.
Thus, the Archetype system was created, but while all the other Origins could still fit within it (really, all the Archetype system did was shift the limitations so they were based on your role, not your "race") Superior Human didn't fit any more. Superior Human wasn't supposed to have any "super" powers, but no Origin could limit you in what Powers you could take.
Complicating matters is that they dropped the distinction between powers and skills, and thus you could now have the same Power representing two different abilities from the original system. Martial Arts, for instance, is obviously a skill set, but it is game-wise the same as a Power Set. Even though Martial Arts is a skill and Super Strength is a power, the two sets have similar Powers and are used identically. What used to be a major component of the old Origin system is now gone.
What you're basically doing, with this thread, is establishing which of the Power Sets are "powers", which are "skills", and which can be either, depending on how you interpret it. So your "Natural Concept" can only take "skills" and not "powers". But again, Origin cannot determine which Powers you can take. So it is innate to the concept of Origin in this system that Natural CANNOT tell you which Power Sets you can and cannot take.
If a Power Set does not fit within the concept of Natural, then that's not Natural, the Origin. It's Natural, the Concept. If your definition of Natural is the definition of Natural, the Concept, then it's not right for Natural, the Origin. The definition of Natural, the Origin MUST include the ability to pick any power you want, including throwing fireballs, flying, and all that. That's why I've said from the start that using the phrase, "The Natural hero is not 'super' at all" was a huge mistake. It was a poor choice of words, and should never have even gotten out of the design stage like that.
Now, you can SAY that your Natural hero has no "super" powers, that goes without saying. But you can also SAY your Technology hero is a cyborg, like the old Cybernetics Origin. That doesnt mean a Technology hero HAS to be a cyborg. So Natural is actually a larger set than Superior Human, Superior Human is a subset of it. It includes those that fit that definition, but is not composed soley of them.
Personally, I feel that there are three distinctive traits of the Natural Origin that should be used to define it. The "official" definition can be used in a general sense, but I don't think it should be used to excluse anyone.
1) The Natural Origin is the only one that can use both technological devices AND magic. (in the form of Gadget and Relic Enhancements) This tells me that the Natural character will use whatever he can get his hands on to get an edge.
2) While the official description includes that phrase about no "super" powers, it also extensively talks about the Natural's motivations, his drive for perfection, and a tragedy that may shape his character. (or in the case of villains, a desire for money)
3) The Natural gets the majority of his powers from training. This is both from the official description and the Enhancement. Combined with the other two, we get an image of a disciplined, determined individual that, importantly, wanted to be a hero (or villain) from the start.
To me, what is important about the Natural is not what Powers he has, but what drives him to seek out that Power in the first place. Is it all external to him, or does he wield it with skill because he has trained with it? If you had a technological weapon, for instance, that aimed for you, boosted your speed, and warned you about incoming attacks, then I would call that technology. If the weapon were just a particularly hi-tech gun, however, and it is your years of training that enables you to wield it well, not to mention leap with remarkable agility and dodge attacks, then I would call that Natural.
The difference between Natural and all other Origins is that with the other Origins it's an accident, or luck. You "happened upon" this great power. The Natural, however, SEEKS OUT the power, he is driven by his past to be more than what he is. The villain version of the description even states that specifically, "Unlike the other Origins, you do not derive your abilities from ... esoteric means. No, you came by your powers the good old fashioned way: through hard work ..."
[ QUOTE ]
Enantiodromos's objection is that in order to be able to Teleport, you have to understand how teleportation works, and thus build a device to let you do that.
[/ QUOTE ]
No, enantiodromos gave paralell descriptions of power suits and 'port gadgets to try and show the distinction by size-of-gadget was shallow. He has repeatedly explained the fact that strong natural concept characters, unlike some other kinds of character concepts, are *defined* by not having superhuman powers, and so are critically sensitive to dilution with exotic science powers like teleportation and suits-powered-by-energy-creating-circuits.
And BTW, I also have a different view of the commonality of teleportation in Paragon. As you yourself said, people don't pop to the store for a gallon of milk-- indeed there's no reason to believe anybody's ever teleporting except in extremely rare emergencies (BTW, much like the frequency with which an archer can draw another five arrows to shoot, the frequency of life-saving trips to the hospital, in-game, is understood to be way exaggerated.)
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all you have to understand is how the INTERFACE to the Medical Teleporters work. So you can reprogram them to send you where you want. Just like you don't have to understand exactly how internal combustion works to drive a car.
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You wouldn't have to be a nuclear physicist to understand how to use a tactical nuclear device, either, or in all probability know anything except how to pull a trigger, to operate a rikti plasma rifle. But they're still exotic science.
Off-the-shelf (and possibly modified though not by superscientists) technology is what's proper to natural concept characters. Teleportation isn't.
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Being a Healer | The word Necessary | Natural Concept Characters
[ QUOTE ]
true Faith as it were is another fine example of how a character can still be natural in origin.
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::sigh:: Yes. It is. As I said earlier, so are some of the borderline mystical abilities of martial artists. It's very cool. But: 1) I'm not talking about the natural origin. 2) Talking about the natural origin is silly, because it can mean just about anything-- you obviously didn't/don't need it to come up with a cool concept like the above. 3) Your concept is cool because it's enigmatic-- ambiguous yet intuitively appealing and carrying a vivifying series of expectations. What to call such a character? A faith concept character, obviously. What origin to use? Natural or Magic, probably, but really, who cares? Is it a natural concept character? No, it's a faith concept character-- which thanks to being pretty original, is probably cooler than natural concept characters, and maybe you should write a guide. Like I was trying to do.
Choosing a Controller V2 | Splattrollers | Plant/Rad | Fire/Storm | Mind/Emp & Mind/Rad
Weird Controller Powers | Conf & XP/Time | Controller Damage
Being a Healer | The word Necessary | Natural Concept Characters
[ QUOTE ]
However, I've noticed that despite that excellent beginning, you still seem to be insisting that even though you are CALLING it something different, this is still the RIGHT definition of "Natural", and everything else is wrong. "The devs found a loophole", you seem to be saying, "and I accept that, but this is what they really MEANT."
[/ QUOTE ]
That's an interesting theory about my thought process, but let me give you the real one:
There is a cool thing in the comics genre. The natural concept character. It preexists CoH. CoH once explicitly had an origin pertaining to it. It now does not. This switcheroo has obfuscated the cool thing in question, both for its longtime fans playing in CoH, and for people who might otherwise otherwise have learned to appreciate it.
So, I tried to write a guide about it.
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"Superior Human" was the name of the "non-super" Origin back when Origins determined your powers, and I'm quite sure that's what you are referring to.
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Nope. I've never heard of this. When the game went to the shelf, the manual that came with it had an origin that represented the natural concept as I define it here, explicitly was tied to ordinary human limitations. I have quoted it in this thread once already.
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If your definition of Natural is the definition of Natural, the Concept, then it's not right for Natural, the Origin.
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Which is why I don't deal with the origin these days except in my efforts to present a cool idea it's currently obfuscating. I have a peacebringer, I know which symbol he usues, and I've read the current description of natural.
You clearly don't give a whit about the natural concept charcter (though you "appreciate" that its distinct), because you're posting at length about the natural origin, helping to obfuscate the thing I'm trying to clarify. The natural origin, as you admit you know, is not at all the subject of this guide. Please quit trying to undermine my guide?
Choosing a Controller V2 | Splattrollers | Plant/Rad | Fire/Storm | Mind/Emp & Mind/Rad
Weird Controller Powers | Conf & XP/Time | Controller Damage
Being a Healer | The word Necessary | Natural Concept Characters
Hrm... I'm half asleep here, but I'll try a shot at making a comment:
I have a "Natural Concept" character(several actually, I like the genre). A Katana/Regen who trained to the peak of human performance and has a unending will power to dig down and ignore the pain inflicted on her and press on, for example.
They're not all Natural Origined however. One of them is Technology(he's an inventor and solves crimes with detective work, skill, and intelligence as well as a little help from the occasional gadget and a whole lot of persistance), and I'd say he would be fit right in, if not with Doc Savage, then one of Doc Savages sidekicks. I also never trained him, so he doesn't even have the Rest power yet. That's something entirely different though.
I also have one that's Science Origined. Super-Solider serum gave him his unusual looks(okay, green tinted skin isn't THAT unusual in Paragon) and helped him, through intense training and a supply of high end equipment, to become the hero he is now. His abilities and equipment are no more beyond human than Batman or Doc Savage though(quite a bit less so, and in my mind more identifiable to a normal person in fact), but because of the serum that started him off I couldn't go with a Natural Origin, even if his concept was that of a natural human with (Non-super)government issue equipment.
I also have several Natural Origined characters who are nowhere near Natural Concept characters.
When I'm picking Origin I'm not only thinking about the source of the characters powers, I'm thinking about enhancements. How would this character seek to further themselves, to better their abilities(or just give themselves a slight edge in the next fight)? Do they build themselves more gadgets? That's technology origin. Do they turn to practice and technique, intensely training themselves in the use of their abilities? That's Natural Origin. Not nessisarily Natural Concept(I can think of several of my Magical Concept characters that would prefer to better their personal technique or their faith in their own abilities than request assistance from the Entities). Origin does not always equate to concept.
While I disagree with a few minor points on your power listing(You skip mentioning the Fighting Pool completely? I couldn't think of anything more Natural! You say superleap is not less viable than superspeed? Superleap is as near to "gliding" as we have) I do get the point you're trying to get across, and I appreciate it.
I think what others are getting upset about is that they see this as less a guideline to a concept, and more as a commentary on the proper way they should define their characters. You can see how this misunderstanding can make people feel a little touchy. Hopefully they can see that it is a misunderstanding.
Oh yes, of note: The comic book Manticore has yet to use teleport on himself or other people. He's staying pretty true to the Natural Concept thus far, even if his arrows are high tech, none of them are beyond the realm of believable science. Even his one touch of magical abilities(the Teleporting Arrow trick) isn't beyond the Natural Concept character(as The Shadow had some "magical" abilities such as becoming invisible in darkness, or Indiana Jones could use "mystical" artifacts he discovered). Plus the teleporting arrow trick would fall under "some one else is doing it to/for him". After all, while the heroes themselves may be natural concept/origined, the world they live in clearly is not.
I wonder how "Natural Concept" would apply to someone like Capt. Kirk from the original Star Trek. I kind of doubt he could build a transporter from scratch, but he made use of it quite a bit.
Hawkeye of the Avengers could be construed as Natural Concept, I suppose, although he made use of tech arrows, a hearing enhancer and Avengers' Quinjets to get around.
Maybe WildCat of the JSA is a better example--just a heavyweight boxer in a cat suit. Except he got those mystic 9-lives after a while.
Very good guide for a specific character concept, and an interesting discussion.
Nice guide that has prompted some lively discussion.
As I was reading the section on motivation, there was one back story that I saw was missing -- Family history or Mentoring. The prime example is the Phantom. The "Ghost Who Walks" has been through how many generations of fathers and sons? A person might inherit the role as the protector of a group of people or a special item. As seen in the "Mask of Zorro" movie, the mantle of the hero can be passed from one person to the next, as the next is trained to take the place of the prior.
Many examples combine the Mentor with another motivation: Robin, Zorro, and Manticore were each motivated by a wrong done to his family and was a mentee. My Invul/Axe Tank has a back story of being part of the "Family" until he learned of his family's real history of being avenging knights in the Italian Middle Ages, where his Axe has been passed on from generation to generation. There's a lot more to the story, making it fairly complex.
Personally, I have no problem with Natural Character having a few extraordinary abilities due to gifts from others, including, in particular, a travel power. I don't let Role Playing get in the way of my enjoying the game, and I can always come up with a Get-around explanation.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
Enantiodromos (or anyone else):
How do you feel about the /Ninjitsu secondary for Stalkers in terms of how appropriate it is for Natural villains?
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Nope. I've never heard of this. When the game went to the shelf, the manual that came with it had an origin that represented the natural concept as I define it here, explicitly was tied to ordinary human limitations. I have quoted it in this thread once already.
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Again, I wish that the devs had never used that phrase. It is confusing, and I'm sure you're not the only person who was led to that conclusion, that the Natural Origin represented the natural concept. The devs themselves were probably thinking Superior Human when they wrote it. That doesn't change the fact, though, that the Natural Origin has access to powers like Flying, Fire Blast, and Super Strength, which could be described as "super" powers. Thus, the very gameplay contradicts the description.
Since you DON'T remember the Superior Human origin, it isn't correct to say that, at least in your memory, CoH once had an Origin pertaining to it. The Natural Origin, whatever the description, has always included the possibility of other concepts besides the ordinary human. That's all I'm saying.
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You clearly don't give a whit about the natural concept charcter (though you "appreciate" that its distinct), because you're posting at length about the natural origin, helping to obfuscate the thing I'm trying to clarify. The natural origin, as you admit you know, is not at all the subject of this guide. Please quit trying to undermine my guide?
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In fact, I have two characters that are "skill-based", to use my terminology, Bloodwolf, an MA/SR Scrapper, and Joe Everyman, an Illusions/Kinetics Controller whose powers are explained by disguise, sleight of hand, and misdirection. So yes, I do give a whit about the natural concept character. I am not undermining your guide, I am merely adding on a commentary about the Natural Origin, in response to some of the replies that have dealt with the ORIGIN, and not the CONCEPT. Consider it an afterthought, an Appendix, if you will.
It is not my intention to attack your suggestions or invalidate them in any way. If you wish to percieve my posts as an attack, I am sorry, but I assure you that's not the case.
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No, enantiodromos gave paralell descriptions of power suits and 'port gadgets to try and show the distinction by size-of-gadget was shallow. He has repeatedly explained the fact that strong natural concept characters, unlike some other kinds of character concepts, are *defined* by not having superhuman powers, and so are critically sensitive to dilution with exotic science powers like teleportation and suits-powered-by-energy-creating-circuits.
And BTW, I also have a different view of the commonality of teleportation in Paragon. As you yourself said, people don't pop to the store for a gallon of milk-- indeed there's no reason to believe anybody's ever teleporting except in extremely rare emergencies (BTW, much like the frequency with which an archer can draw another five arrows to shoot, the frequency of life-saving trips to the hospital, in-game, is understood to be way exaggerated.)
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Well, I can agree with this in principle. However, in PRACTICE of playing a natural concept character to level 32, I can tell you that after a while, no travel powers gets frustrating. Really frustrating. So the question becomes not "does this Power fit my concept", but "am I so wedded to my concept that I cannot allow myself to come up with an explanation that I can make fit it".
Super Jump is probably the easiest travel power to explain via use of gadgets, while Flying with a jetpack is second, although that limits you to temporary powers. It is notable, however, that so many jetpacks and jump packs are now available in CoV, and my skill-based characters in those games definately appreciate them. Neither is really a perfect solution, and I guess my thought is that Teleport is actually BETTER that those two since there is nothing in the graphic that invalidates the use of a hand held device. You can imagine using a control to activate Teleport easier than you can imagine jump boots or a jetpack when there is none.
However, this may change with the addition of jetpacks which was discussed by Positron. I don't know in what way they will become an option, but this may make Flying MUCH more compatible with a skill-based concept. In my own case, however, Bloodwolf may remain without travel powers simply because I used his 4 Pool choices for other things.
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Off-the-shelf (and possibly modified though not by superscientists) technology is what's proper to natural concept characters. Teleportation isn't.
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Who's to say what's "off the shelf"? What if I can walk into Image, Inc. and buy a jetpack? What if I can buy a personal teleporter?
The truth is, what we are really dealing with here is not the effect of the Powers, and whether they fit concept, but the appearance. Aid Self is a great skill-based power because you pull out a little device and heal yourself. Transfusion is a little harder to excuse, because there is no such device. It's essentially the same power, but because of appearance, one is more suited to concept than another. Which makes perfect sense, because concept often comes back to appearance. I skipped X-Ray Beam on my Defender because his power just doesn't come out of his eyes. That's concept.
As I mentioned above, maybe a jetpack graphic will help with this. Then if you don't think Teleport fits concept, then you don't have to take it. It is really hard to get around without travel powers, though, and frankly, there COULD be travel powers that are skill-based, like swing lines and vehicles, but there aren't. Batman doesn't run everywhere, he uses the Batmobile, but YOU can't. Because that power's not available.
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Just to provide factual context, I believe this is the in-game description of Natural origin...
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What you quote *is* the current definition, but is not the correct context. The manual-published definition to which I referred was, originally:
"Your origin involves no mysterious forces or secret discoveries; you have simply used your remarkable talents to train yourself to the very pinnacle of human potential."
Choosing a Controller V2 | Splattrollers | Plant/Rad | Fire/Storm | Mind/Emp & Mind/Rad
Weird Controller Powers | Conf & XP/Time | Controller Damage
Being a Healer | The word Necessary | Natural Concept Characters