Claws/SR Guide for I7

nebber · 05-19-2006 07:02 AM

Claws / Super Reflexes Guide for I7

So you're thinking of making a Claws/SR? You've heard about the I7 changes to Claws and Super Reflexes and this build finally looks appealing?

It's a fun build, not overpowered--but very rewarding. It will never be a PVP god build or a burst damage king. But, this build offers great, fast, consistent attack chains that barely hurt your e-bar, and probably the best overall damage per second in the long-run. It has a set-it-and-forget-it secondary. You're fast, you dodge, you stab, you win. And it's dead sexy the whole time.

So jump on board. Just, for the love of all things holy, no more cat-women. Please.

Twitchy McStaby was my first toon from I1. Despite the odds stacked against pre-I7 claws and the cries that SR doesn't compete with the other secondaries, I got him up to Elude. He was semi-retired since I2, and when I7 hit the test servers, I copied him many times over, and rebuilt, experimented, and am highly pleased with the results.

Let me start this off by saying the most important thing now: Claws/SR is one of the tightest builds in the game. Mostly because of SR. You're going to need every power from it--the most you want to pass up from it is one power. Add in a range of attractive Claws attacks you're going to want, the pool powers for traveling, and the ones to improve upon your secondary, and there's little wiggle room.

So, ready? Let's start with the

CLAWS POWER REVIEW
---------------------------------

Swipe:
It's better in I7, but still not worth taking in my book. It's the weakest attack in the set. You're going to have an arsenal of quick-recharging single-target attacks, and you can have a workable chain without it by level 8. You can survive until then, right? If you have to take it, you're most likely going to want to respec out of it later. Remember, your build is going to be tight. A 1.9 brawl-index (0.7 DS) attack is easily skippable.

Strike:
Better than Swipe. New gut-stab animation, nice recharge, and the good ol' passing-the-time-while-my-other-attacks-recharge 2.7 brawl index (1.0 DS). Take it first.

Slash:
This just went from 'blah' to 'must have' when it got Strike's old animation. Better damage than Strike (3.7 brawl index/1.32 DS), good recharge, and a defense debuff? Sold. Take it. Now. What are you waiting for?

Spin:
See Single-target vs. AOE discussion below.

Follow Up:
Since ED hit, this became a lot more attractive. You want it. Thanks to the new Slash and Quickness from SR, it will allow the 'Attack Chain of the Gods' (see below). The accuracy and damage buff is wonderful in the early levels, when training origins do nothing to help you. The use of it in the teens will be a bit awkward, but once you can devote four-slots-plus and SOs to it, it becomes gold. Though it's only a 2.2 BI (0.8 DS) attack, it will help your other attacks significantly--this will be discussed later.

Confront:
If you take this, you are a fool. If you want aggro, stab someone in the face. If you want a room full of agro, play a tank. In a pink dress. Pansy.

Focus:
Indisputably the shining star of the claws set. 4.5 brawl index (1.64 DS), knocks down your target every single time it hits if they aren't knockdown-resistant, good range, and a base 6 second recharge. It makes you happy. So very happy. Take it at 18 when it's available and never look back.

Eviscerate:
You know, this one is difficult to decide on. It's good. It got a recharge and endurance discount with I7. It has a higher chance of getting a critical, and acts in a small cone, so you can hit multiple enemies with it. Best damage in the set at 4.7 BI (1.7 DS).

But it's slow execution. In time it takes you to do the backflip and hit, you can do a Slash and a Strike for a total of 6.4 brawl index (2.3 DS) to a single target, so it's not worth using in an attack chain--especially since regular use of it will hurt your blue bar. If you get it, you only want to use it when you know it will hit multiple enemies. So it's an occasional power, making it more skippable.

Further discussion included in the Single-target vs AOE discussion below.

Shockwave:
A ranged cone that knocks all the targets it hits. Of the set, this is my least favorite behind Swipe. Again, an endurance and recharge discount was granted with I7, but it's still going to take a while to recharge, and is situational in use. I hear of the advantages of crowd control and herding enemies together for further AOEs, but in the builds where I have it, I forget it's there. Skippable.

Single-Target vs AOEs
----------------------------

Claws has some of the best AOE (well, more specifically, 'multiple-target attacks') options of any scrapper sets. A good-damage melee cone, a point-blank AOE, and a ranged cone.

Let me tell you this, you're going to want to be a sustainable single-target rapid-fire killer--this is one of the greatest advantages of the new claws. You want the attacks to make this chain no matter what.

So you are taking 4 claws powers for this (more on that later). Let's talk about the rest of your powers to 40. You're going to want the fitness pool (3 powers). You're going to want your travel power and its pre-req (2 powers). You're going to want at least 8 powers from SR. You're going to want 2 other pool powers to balance your secondary (fighting or medicine, discussed later), and probably one other pool power to give you a fighting edge (hasten or air superiority). We're already at 20 powers.

Now let's talk about the multiple-target attacks. Use Strike on a target. See how little damage that does? That's how much Spin and Shockwave do. Granted, it adds up. But you'll never be a fire-blaster of scrappers. Eviscerate does better damage, but lining up melee cones is difficult, and you can be spending that time unloading your single-target chain.

So which, if any, of the multiple-target attacks do you take? Is it really worth removing the powers to make you survivable to take them?

First, you have to answer this. Will you mostly solo or duo, maybe the occasional larger team? Stick to single-target. For small spawns, I've found I can kill just as fast bouncing around with my single-target attack chain.

Will you spend your career in huge teams? Huge teams equal huge spawns. Huge spawns is where your AOEs will really pay off, and give you a good reward for the extra endurance you're using to execute the AOE attacks.

Huge teams also have the advantage of damage mitigation. If you are going to play in environment where there is constantly a tank to keep the aggro, or debuffs/buffs to keep you alive, you can forego your SR-effectiveness-supplement pool (fighting, medicine discussion later), and free up two powers. You can skip your 'fighting edge' pool power and have room for all three multiple-enemy attacks.

So, if you like big spawns and lots of friends, pick and chose what you will give up to gain your multiple-enemy attacks. If you free up one power to make room for an AOE attack, I suggest spin first. It's available at level 6, and it's easy to use (no lining up for the attack). If you free up two slots, you can chose eviscerate or shockwave. By 26, you will be able to guess which one will be better for you. Are you constantly facing enough enemies where a cone will hit more than one? Eviscerate. Are you constantly jumping back to be out of melee and firing off focus from a safe distance? Shockwave will be better for you. Did you skip Air Superiority? Shockwave will give you another valuable knockdown.

For my final I7 build, I have none of the multiple-target attacks. I mostly solo or duo, and find that my single-target-attack-chain-o'-death still works well on larger teams.

And that brings us to:

The Single-Target Attack Chain of the Gods
-----------------------------------------------------

After an unspeakable amount of respecs, I settled on this gem. You will need Quickness for it to work.

Slash: 1-2 acc, 3 damage, 1 end redx.
Air Superiority: 1-2 acc, 3 damage, 1 end redx
Follow Up: 2 acc, 3 recharge, 1 end redx
Focus: 1-2 acc, 3 damage, 1 end redx.

This is the chain:

Follow Up -> Focus -> Slash -> Air Superiority. Repeat.

What happens with this? You build momentum. In this chain of sweet fast-activating attacks, Follow Up lasts for the next 6 attacks. Follow Up buffs your first chain with essentially the equivalent of another damage SO, and a good to-hit buff. On the second run, and all subsequent cycles, Focus and Slash, two attacks with very respectable brawl indexes, have two stacked follow-ups buffing them. You've added the equivalent of two damage SOs to these two attacks. Take that, enhancement diversification! The to-hit buff also moves from 'good' to 'healthy'.

At the same time, Slash is a defense debuff. As the chain unfolds, you are buffing your accuracy and debuffing the enemies' defense. Your chain is made for hitting consistently, to the point where misses become surprising when they happen.

And finally, look at the pattern: attack -> knockdown attack -> attack -> knockdown attack. If it doesn't have knockdown resistance, what you are hitting is not hitting you. It's falling and getting up until it's dead. I can not stress how friggin awesome this is. Bosses will punch through your SR on a regular basis, and it will hurt. But with this, they are not hitting you.

The endurance of this chain when you have an endurance reducer in each attack and Stamina is cheap. Seriously cheap. No kidding, with 2 toggles up, I can do it 10 times nonstop. Endurance will never be a reason to take a break, so you can keep the xp rolling in nonstop during missions.

Now, the pool power considerations for this.

The chain, especially when your recharge SOs are white or yellow, will have a momentary pause between Air superiority and Follow Up. By the time you get back to Focus, your target will sometimes have time for one attack before his knockdown.

Hasten closes this gap completely. When it's up, a boss has zero chance to hit when your knockdown attacks hit. And with Quickness and 3 recharge SOs, Hasten will be up 2/3rds of the time.

And finally, Air Superiority. For the damage and activation time, Strike can be a substitute in this chain for Air Superiority. If you are forsaking Air Superiority for a more AOE-friendly build, then hopefully, you are on a big team (see above) and have damage mitigation. Then you don't have to worry about keeping up perma-knockdown. It also saves you the claws redraw after Air Superiority. However, if you are a soloist, there is no reason at all to skip Air Superiority.

SR POWER REVIEW
----------------------------

This is more condensed than Claws, grouping like powers. And you're going to want all of them, so no need to debate the relative merits of individual powers. I'll discuss the one you're not going to take later.

Focused Fighting, Focused Senses, Evasion (the toggles):
Your basic defense. Early on, the endurance cost of two will hurt. Melee hits damage more, so keep fighting on and turn off senses when you don't need it. You want to make sure the first two are well-slotted by the time you hit SOs. The toggles provide 19.5% defense with 3 SOs each. You're taking a minion down to 30% to hit you, and bosses down to 45%. Thanks to the new global defense (more accurately, enemy to-hit) changes with I7, these percentages will stay pretty consistent up to +5 enemies.

Agile, Dodge, Lucky (the passives):
Your supplemental defense. Since these don't offer as much base defense as the toggles, take them later, and slot them later. At 7.8% extra defense 3 SO'ed, combined with the toggles, you are taking minions down to a 22% chance of hitting, bosses to 38%. Very nice, and very noticeable.

Then, there is the matter of the damage resistance. Each passive gives you scaling damage resistance--a little when you hit yellow, and more when you hit red. My old builds, I went light on the passives, thinking them not valuable enough. I was so. very. wrong. When you have all three and you are in the red, what would have been a kill shot hits you for half the damage or less, and you live to stab more things in the face. And the difference between two and three passives is VERY noticeable. You need them all.

Practiced Brawler:
Best scrapper status protection. 2 recharge SOs + Quickness and it's perma. It can't be detoggled, and it doesn't cost endurance past firing it.

Quickness:
Some say it's skippable, but not from my angle. It's required for the Attack Chain of the Gods, and the slow protection it provides is extremely valuable. When the Earth Thorn Caster drops quicksand and you run straight through it and stab him in the face, you'll thank me. The run speed buff is also great, discussed in pool powers below.

Elude:
Your god-mode. Some say skippable now that the I7 defense buffs gets PVE enemies close to their accuracy floor, but that's in theory. In actual play, you're going to get in a situation where the enemies have to-hit buffs, defense debuffs, or superior numbers. The extra defense Elude gives then will make the difference between victory and a faceplant. And don't forget the endurance buff, should you get 'sapped'. Now with the icons blinking before the buff wears off, you can time your crash, making it even better. Come I7, you won't need defense in there, only recharge, just keep your toggles up while it's running and most everything will be at its defense floor. Only slot defense for PVPing.

So yes. You want all of the SR powers. But in reality, you're going to have to forego one. So which is the weakest link?

My answer: the AOE protection. You're not getting it until late anyway, and, with a few notable exceptions, AOEs hurt less than ranged and melee. With your SR supplement pool, you will have ways of recovering or lessening the AOE damage. Plus, a mere 3 levels from Evasion, you get Elude. If you find yourself in AOE hell that's too much to survive, you have a button out.

You can strategize to minimize AOE damage as well. Charge into melee, and Nemesis will try to stab you with their guns rather than fire their AOEs. If there's only one AOE'er, he dies first, juggled the whole time with your knockdown-happy chain.

So drop Lucky or Evasion? Evasion. Why? Even though it provides more AOE defense, you're better without it. First, it's a toggle, and it costs endurance. Second, the 3-passive scaling damage resistance is worlds better than the 2-passive. You may be hit by more AOEs, but they'll do less damage by the time you are in the yellow. And that's when it matters most. I tried life without both, and keeping Lucky is what I settled on.

TRAVEL POWERS
-----------------------

Remember how I said this is a tight build? So you want a pool power where it's prerequisite will be helpful. Air Superiority, and Hasten, both great for the Attack Chain of the Gods, yield Superspeed and Flight. I really, really, really, suggest picking one of these, so you don't waste a power on the jumping / TP prereqs. You don't have room for them. Superspeed with one run speed SO, stacked with your quickness and swift, caps your run speed. This is what I chose.

I know these aren't everyone's favorite travel powers, but you have to make sacrifices somewhere, right? Work it into your concept before you start.

Also, there is one other option: no travel power. Swift + Quickness + Sprint will get you to somewhere between the speed of base fly and 1-slotted fly. I've tried it, and it's workable. I just don't have the patience. But, if you really, really, want to squeeze in more AOEs or other pools, this can be a way to free up a power. Plus, it's a great way to accent a natural origin character.

SR SUPPLIMENT POOL
------------------------------

OK. So SR is good defense. The problem with defense is it's a dice-roll each time. You'll have battles where you emerge unscathed, and others where it seems everyone and their grandma gets free hits on you. Since running away and/or screaming 'heal plz' is very unbecoming of a scrapper, you need a plan B. Two pools work great for this: medicine (aid self) and fighting (tough). I highly recommend medicine.

Aid Self WILL save your behind. When your defenses fail, the only thing that will keep you fighting is an HP boost. Slotted 3 heal, 2 interrupt, 1 recharge, with Quickness, you will have 40% of your hp returned every 13 seconds. This is teh ubarz.

The biggest thing people normally have against medicine is the use of the tricorder. Your mutant werewolf isn't exactly going to be carrying this in his hip hair.

Well? Can you live with it for the best supplemental protection for your set? How about if I told you there's a way to get rid of the tricorder animation?

/macro heal 'powexec_name aid self$$e flex1'

This will make a macro where if you press it twice very quickly, your tricorder grab will be replaced by you flexing while the green goodness flows over you.

Likewise,
/macro stim 'powexec_name stimulant$$e smack'
Creates a very comical situation where you slap your teammate and it awakens him from his hold/sleep/disorient.

Convinced?

OK. If you really, really, are against medicine for concept reasons, then, <sigh>, read on.

Tough 3-SOed will give you another 18% S/L resist, which will not keep you in the green much, but will keep you in the yellow longer and in the red a long, long time before you die, by stacking with your passive's scaling damage resistance. Enemies are going to have a hard time finishing you off, and if you have health 3-slotted, you will be extremely survivable at low levels of health. The tradeoff is it's another toggle, so you'll need more endurance management, but all-in-all, still a nice supplement.

FITNESS
-----------

You need it. Not only for Stamina letting you fight forever, but for the Swift + Quickness stack. This is unsuppressed movement, which lets you continue your Attack Chain of the Gods uninterrupted as you bounce from one enemy to the next. As soon as one dies, I hit tab and F, and my next victim is immediately in front of my sharp stabby implements.

So that leaves Hurdle or Health. Health is better. 3-slotted for heals will help any build, and especially the ones with Tough. However, if you pick superspeed for your travel power, you'll have a tougher choice--you'll want Hurdle for that bit more of vertical movement. This was my choice in the end.

OTHER POOLS
-------------------

Yes, there are other pools which give some defense. They aren't worth it. Your SR supplement pool is far more valuable than another measly 2 percent defense. So stay away from concealment and leadership unless you have a really good reason. And don't even look at the presence pool.

As I've mentioned several times, Air Superiority is king, and Hasten is a big help. Many naysayers will say that hasten is overkill on a Claws/SR, with Quickness and natural short recharge of claws powers. I say 'bah' to them. Bah! First, it makes the Attack Chain of the Gods gapless. Second, it brings Elude back somewhere in the neighborhood of 100 seconds faster. Third, Aid Self come back quicker for those 'I'm really getting pummeled' moments. Lastly, there will be times when you are decidedly staying out of melee and using focus to damage and keep something really mean and ugly away from you. Hasten will bring focus up fast enough to keep that mean and ugly on his backside most of the time.

EPIC POOLS
---------------

Can't really say. Twitch ain't there yet. But, by the time you reach 41, you should know what you want. For me, I actually am planning to go back and get the claw attacks I couldn't fit in yet. But, in a nutshell: I hear Dark mastery will make you an AOE damaging king, if you are already down that road. The others will give you some PVP advantages and some more ranged attacks to go nicely with Focus (and, if you have it, Shockwave).

SAMPLE BUILD
-------------------

01 - Strike
01 - Focused Fighting
02 - Slash
04 - Focused Senses
06 - Air Superiority (or spin)
08 - Follow Up
10 - Hasten (or spin)
12 - Practiced Brawler
14 - Super Speed (or Fly)
16 - Swift
18 - Focus
20 - Health (or Hurdle)
22 - Stamina
24 - Quickness
26 - Dodge
28 - Agile
30 - Stimulant (or box/kick, or eviscerate)
32 - Aid Self (or tough, or shockwave)
35 - Lucky
38 - Elude

Slotting:

You have 20 slots to add by the time you reach 22 and SOs. You can afford to 4-slot all your attacks, 3-slot your defense, and 2-slot practiced brawler. Build your attacks up sooner, as more TO and DO aims will help you more early on than the sad amount of defense TOs and DOs give. But make sure your defenses have good slots by the time you hit 22.

In your 20s to mid 30s, finish 4-slotting your toggles (3 defense, 1 end reducer) and get your claw attacks to 5-slotted (1 aim, 3 damage, 1 end reducer). Get Hasten and Stamina 3-slotted. And slot up your SR supplement pool.

Late 30s, 6-slot your big attacks with another aim, and finish 3-slotting your passives.

When you don't know what to do with your slots anymore, Quickness and Swift will happily take more run speeds for even more combat maneuverability.

PVP
----

The only time you should consider a PVP build is endgame. The things you will want to take to be more effective there (say, Eviscerate for the crits and semi-burst damage, Tactics stacked with Focused Senses to let you see stalkers, and recharge-based slotting on Focus and Eviscerate) will gimp your PVE level climb. Trust me, I did this. That said, you can have fun and be viable at PVP, but you won't really be godly and will have a hard time getting the kill with the high percentage of runners who won't stay around for your relatively low-powered chain of attacks. Lots of players will have powers to get around your defense, so just take it in good humor, and you can have some interesting duels.

THE END
----------

Hope this brings some light into the fun world of Claws/SR. If you see Twitchy McStaby on Victory, give me a claws-extended wave.

*edit 1 (5.19.2006) - added DS damage values to appease a certain Fanboy. For more info on these values and his great guide to scrapper attacks, see here.

Rattler_NA · 05-19-2006 08:12 AM

Very helpfull guide and i must say, entertaining as well

I think once i7 goes live i'll be rolling a Claws/SR Scrapper so i can get me some face stabbing action too!

Bill Z Bubba · 05-19-2006 10:43 AM

A fine guide, geewot. We agree on Evasion being the power to drop if you're going to drop one.

Your Attack Chain of the Gods is interesting as well. It means that, when desired, it doesn't matter if you choose between Swipe and Strike.

However, I'll be going Swipe for the sexiness value and adding it on the the end of the same single target chain, so hasten won't be a factor for me. The Dark Lord of Pinnacle can't be havin no glowing hands, dontcha know.

On the tricorder of doom versus tough: I'll consider the emote addition to a bind. As I mentioned the last time someone told me about that trick, I have no issues with Bill casting a spell to heal himself, but there's no way I could tolerate him pulling out a Star Trek handout.

Be well, people of CoH.

Black_Cats_Paw · 05-19-2006 02:34 PM

Fantastic, Geewot. Well-written and helpful. We need to get this one posted on the CuppaJo's front-page list on the Scrapper forums.

Scrappers, GET TOUGH!

"I'm pretty sure it's deliberate. All they did was change the names and give the african americans super powers."

nebber · 05-19-2006 04:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Your Attack Chain of the Gods is interesting as well. It means that, when desired, it doesn't matter if you choose between Swipe and Strike.

However, I'll be going Swipe for the sexiness value and adding it on the the end of the same single target chain, so hasten won't be a factor for me. The Dark Lord of Pinnacle can't be havin no glowing hands, dontcha know.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right on the new Swipe being sexier than the new Strike, so I won't scoff. If you are committed to having Air Superiority, then you have the 4th attack in the chain covered. If you want to substitute an AOE for Air Superiorty, though, you gots to keep the Strike.

As far as adding Swipe to the chain, you don't need to. Without Hasten on, and 3 green SOs in Follow Up, the gap between the 4th attack and Follow Up is seriously minor--in the neighborhood of half of a second. Hasten does close this gap completely... and that half-second is the difference between a boss getting a hit off between the knockdowns of Air Superiority and Focus.

Even without Hasten, the second Follow Up buff extends into Slash, but just barely. If you add Swipe in there, you lose the buff landing on your two strongest attacks in the chain. So all you are sacrificing without Hasten is the chance of the boss getting a swing at you. If you have the tools or teammates to handle that occassional hit, there's no problem with the mini-gap.

Try it out on test, I still use the same chain in the time when Hasten is down, and it's still uber in that it has the same great DPS and low endurance consumption.

[ QUOTE ]
On the tricorder of doom versus tough: I'll consider the emote addition to a bind. As I mentioned the last time someone told me about that trick, I have no issues with Bill casting a spell to heal himself, but there's no way I could tolerate him pulling out a Star Trek handout.

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you tried it out yet? Since you are one of the most vocal oppenents to the tricorder that I can think of, you should know it still does the be-ba-beep noise despite the other emote, and it's still in your hand when you're doing the substitute pose--it's just much less noticable when it's not glowing and you're toon isn't tapping away at it. Maybe giant gloves will mask it completely?

elrothir · 05-24-2006 08:42 PM

Great guide! I am enjoying my Claws/SR scrapper. I'm at 25 now and can definitely apply some of these tips. Really looking forward to trying the Attack Chain. I was wondering if you thought it would be any benefit to put a Defense Debuff in a slot for Slash and ToHit Buff in Follow-up? Perhaps as opposed to the EndRed. Not sure if that'd help if you've got Stamina 3-slotted.

I haven't picked up Focus yet, but was wondering, does it just do KnockDOWN or KnockBACK? If it does knockBACK, it'd knock the guy away from you and you'd have to chase. I'm assuming it just knocks him down so he stays right there for more pummelling? Sounds great!

Stupid_Fanboy · 05-24-2006 09:33 PM

focus is 100% knockdown

Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.

▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲

Bill Z Bubba · 05-24-2006 10:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Have you tried it out yet? Since you are one of the most vocal oppenents to the tricorder that I can think of, you should know it still does the be-ba-beep noise despite the other emote, and it's still in your hand when you're doing the substitute pose--it's just much less noticable when it's not glowing and you're toon isn't tapping away at it. Maybe giant gloves will mask it completely?

[/ QUOTE ]

This was exactly what I found, adding on that the bind almost never worked at all anyway. So, I'll be sticking with tough.

Be well, people of CoH.

longtime · 05-25-2006 02:05 PM

Does anyone have good advice on the upper level powers?
I was going body mastery.

Shockwave is much better than spin. Spin requires that you get to the center of mob, not a good idea, if avoidng argo.

Shockwave is power that is there at good time, post 32+ you run to a ton of low hitpoint creatures DE and Ritiki. Also, serves for a way to knock down a group as an opener during soloing. 1 Mob down is good a whole group on their back is better. I found that shockwave worked better with group AoE since it is easier to position. I don't see how a knock down build does not contail this power. PvP shock wave is great; Roll up on a group a villain and it easy to find the ones without knock protection.

Bill Z Bubba · 05-25-2006 04:15 PM

I'm sticking with dark mastery for the tohit debuffs (it's like adding more defense) and because tentacles look cool and annoy the enemy.

As you already see the benefit of skirting the crowd with shockwave, having tentacles holding them together makes shockwave even more effective.

Be well, people of CoH.

nebber · 05-27-2006 08:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Great guide! I am enjoying my Claws/SR scrapper. I'm at 25 now and can definitely apply some of these tips. Really looking forward to trying the Attack Chain. I was wondering if you thought it would be any benefit to put a Defense Debuff in a slot for Slash and ToHit Buff in Follow-up? Perhaps as opposed to the EndRed. Not sure if that'd help if you've got Stamina 3-slotted.

[/ QUOTE ]

The exact debuff for slash, and how long it lasts, I've never been able to find. I've found with 2 aims in each attack and followup up, I rarely miss purples. My best guess? Probably like katana's attacks where it's 10%-ish and only lasts a few seconds. A defense debuff SO would only take that to 12%--not really getting you much further.

So, the e-reducer for the 6th slot is what I go for, since it just lets me keep up the holy chain for a ridiculously long time.

Same deal with Followup. To-hit buff is 10% according to Stupid Fanboy's table, and to-hit SO's only give 20%, so you're only gaining 2% to-hit with it.

Make no mistake, Followup is an endurance hog. 7.8 endurance fired off every 5.5 seconds can hurt the blue bar bad--it's the most endurance-expensive attack in the chain. Keep a endurance reducer in it for sure.

nebber · 05-27-2006 09:48 AM

You guys want to know something cool I just figured out?

For extended fights, like AVs or a boss with insane lethal protection, your DPS will be be better than a broadsword's. Even with BS's buildup.

I compared the Attack Chain of The Gods (dps: 5.2 BI/sec for the second and all subsequent runs) to broadsword's Headsplitter>Disembowel>Hack>Slash>Par ry. This chain gives 66.9 brawl index in 10 seconds with a buildup fired off, and 41.32 when it's not, which means you have to do 3 more cycles of the chain before buildup is back. Overall, this is 191 BI in 40 seconds, or 4.7 DPS.

Claws for the win!

Of course, these are rough numbers. Both were calculated with /SR, with quickness, and no hasten. What is not included in broadsword's favor is the increased critical chance on headsplitter, which would increase the DPS. But, in a real-game application, I think Claws would still come out on top, because the constant follow-up buff and slash debuff will make you land more hits than the BS scrapper. Also, unless they are /regen, the BS is going to be sucking wind after about 4 cycles (40 sec). The ACOTG can go 10 cycles (60 sec) with 2 toggles up.

Yay for Claws!

DuoGirl · 06-07-2006 04:08 AM

I've got an addition for the claw attack chain which will increase DPS for those who do not have Quickness (all non Super Relfexes Secondaries). It's kinda 2 different attack chains you cycle through.

Follow Up -> Focus -> Strike -> Air Superiority -> Follow Up -> Strike -> Eviscerate -> Strike.

You need to slot strike for one recharge SO in order to use this attack chain and it will only improve DPS for those without quickness. Super Reflexers with Quickness need a little faster attack chain than strike-eviscerate-strike to get their double stacked follow up bonus on every follow up attack also.

Edit: should mention that you need Hasten and 3 recharge SOs in Follow Up for it.

Additions to the Attack Chain of Gods:
You can replace Air Superiority by Strike (one SO recharge + Hasten), Slash or Shockwave (only every second attack chain) if you like to. This does not slow down or change the damage/DPS of the Attack Chain of Gods. It is just to bring in some personal preferences and possibilities. I prefer to use shockwave every second attack chain instead of Air Sup because of the cone damage and knockdown. For dealing damage over all, shockwave is the best AoE/Cone in the whole claw set. It is hard to fit Eviscerate/Spin into a high damage attack chain and with both you have a hard time to hit as many foes as frequent as you are able to do with Shockwave. My HeroStats constantly states that most damage was dealt by using Shockwave

Regards,
Negative One

DuoGirl · 06-08-2006 03:46 PM

Replacing Air Sup. with Strike should increase the DPS of the attack chain for those with hasten + quickness, because you get the second follow up bonus on every follow up then.
Regards,
Negative One

Stupid_Fanboy · 06-08-2006 04:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You guys want to know something cool I just figured out?

For extended fights, like AVs or a boss with insane lethal protection, your DPS will be be better than a broadsword's. Even with BS's buildup.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, I've been trying to get people to realize this for a while. But big orange numbers are sexy and they get distracted.
I have a setup with Claws and BS going against a single hard target with about 7500 HP and the claws kills it about 18 seconds faster than the BS. that's with recharges slotted in high end Claws attacks and in all BS attacks. And, that doesn't take quickness into account. claws also does kills the guy 20% faster for 20% less end, which results in about 30% more DPS than Broadsword.

[ QUOTE ]
Claws for the win!
.
Yay for Claws!

[/ QUOTE ]

indeed.

Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.

▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲

DuoGirl · 06-09-2006 12:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I've got an addition for the claw attack chain which will increase DPS for those who do not have Quickness (all non Super Relfexes Secondaries). It's kinda 2 different attack chains you cycle through.

Follow Up -> Focus -> Strike -> Air Superiority -> Follow Up -> Strike -> Eviscerate -> Strike.

You need to slot strike for one recharge SO in order to use this attack chain and it will only improve DPS for those without quickness. Super Reflexers with Quickness need a little faster attack chain than strike-eviscerate-strike to get their double stacked follow up bonus on every follow up attack also.

Edit: should mention that you need Hasten and 3 recharge SOs in Follow Up for it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Forget this post, it was made assuming BI Strike = BI Slash. I never used slash on my claws/sr so I took the number from hero builder where it is incorrect.

[ QUOTE ]
Additions to the Attack Chain of Gods:
You can replace Air Superiority by Strike (one SO recharge + Hasten), Slash or Shockwave (only every second attack chain) if you like to. This does not slow down or change the damage/DPS of the Attack Chain of Gods. It is just to bring in some personal preferences and possibilities. I prefer to use shockwave every second attack chain instead of Air Sup because of the cone damage and knockdown. For dealing damage over all, shockwave is the best AoE/Cone in the whole claw set. It is hard to fit Eviscerate/Spin into a high damage attack chain and with both you have a hard time to hit as many foes as frequent as you are able to do with Shockwave. My HeroStats constantly states that most damage was dealt by using Shockwave

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not correct either, mixed up Strike and Slash again. You can replace Air Superiority by Strike (no recharge enhance needed) or Shockwave (every second chain), but not with Slash. Shockwave is still my favorite here

Regards,
Negative One

Vort · 06-09-2006 12:40 AM

Fanboy, can I get your exact chains?

Also, how the attacks're slotted, whether you have self-buffs (quickness, hasten, etc.) or the like.

Just curious.

DuoGirl · 06-09-2006 03:59 AM

For extended fights, like an AV or GM, Dark Melee should have the highest DPS of all scrapper primaries. I used the following attack chain:

Shadow Punch -> Smite -> Midnight Grasp -> Shadow Punch -> Boxing -> Smite -> Shadow Punch -> Boxing -> Shadow Maul

Calculations were made assuming you activate Hasten (3 SO rchg), then Soul Drain (3 SO rchg) and hit 7 targets (78,4% damage bonus vs. even level). After that you cycle through the chain 3 times until Soul Drain bonus drops and 2 more cycles until you use Soul Drain again. All attacks have 3 SOs damage and no recharge enhancement is needed.

While Hasten is active you achieve a DPS of 6,96 BI/s. Compared to claws with 5,2 BI/s this is pretty high. Now count in that Hasten is only up 2/3rd of the time, your overall DPS drops to 6,19 BI/s (Edit: Calculated with the resulting attack chain and some gaps). Quickness is not required for this.

Regards,
Negative One

F1uke · 06-09-2006 02:36 PM

Great Guide! Helped alot

Stargazer · 06-15-2006 11:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You guys want to know something cool I just figured out?

For extended fights, like AVs or a boss with insane lethal protection, your DPS will be be better than a broadsword's. Even with BS's buildup.

I compared the Attack Chain of The Gods (dps: 5.2 BI/sec for the second and all subsequent runs) to broadsword's Headsplitter>Disembowel>Hack>Slash>Par ry. This chain gives 66.9 brawl index in 10 seconds with a buildup fired off, and 41.32 when it's not, which means you have to do 3 more cycles of the chain before buildup is back. Overall, this is 191 BI in 40 seconds, or 4.7 DPS.

Claws for the win!

[/ QUOTE ]

But that's not really a fair comparison.

The BS chain uses Parry. Parry has poor DPS, but gives a good defensive boost.
So essentially you're comparing an offensive Claws chain to a defensive BS chain.

I haven't looked much as BS attack chains, but if they want good DPS, it seems like they should be able to do better than that.

So while I don't doubt that Claws can outdamage BS over time, the difference shouldn't be as large as those numbers indicate.

[ QUOTE ]
But, in a real-game application, I think Claws would still come out on top, because the constant follow-up buff and slash debuff will make you land more hits than the BS scrapper.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I think BS wins the Accuracy Wars.

Against low-def targets, both of them will pretty much reach the 95% cap.

Against high-def targets, there's no question that BS wins. Big.

That leaves the middle ground, and while things can depend on circumstances here, I still think that BS has the edge.

BS has the possibility for having 4-5 debuffs active.
Claws (asuming closed chains) gets 2 buffs/2 debuffs for Focus and AS, 2 buffs/1 debuff for Slash (the second most important attack), and 1 buff/2 debuffs for FU (the attack that matters the most).

The buff in FU (10%) seems to be higher than the debuffs (I've heard 7.5% a lot, but I don't know if it's correct), but even if the debuffs are closer to 5%, they'll basically tie in buffs/debuffs (some room for interpretation here. With 5%, Claws might have the edge, especially if FU is slotted with more than one Acc).
On top of that, BS has a 5% acc bonus and BU.

Because the buff from FU is not target dependant, Claws has an advantage when fighting multiple "soft" targets, but against a single "hard" target (like in your comparison here), BS seems to have the advantage.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, unless they are /regen, the BS is going to be sucking wind after about 4 cycles (40 sec). The ACOTG can go 10 cycles (60 sec) with 2 toggles up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well....
In general, Claws attacks have a reduced End cost.
However...

Follow Up is not your general attack. It actually has a really large cost (compared to other attacks).
And Air Superiority is not a Claws attack.

So...

(assuming closed chains)

(Numbers from here)

Claws
power: ActTime EndCost
Slash: 1.33 5.4912
AS: 1.5 6.5
FU: 1.63 7.8
Focus: 1.53 6.8224
total: 5.99 26.6136

effective EPS (in closed chain):
26.6136/5.99 = 4.44 EPS

BS
power: ActTime EndCost
HS: 2.87 13.52
Dis: 2.87 10.192
Hack: 1.83 8.528
Slash: 1.37 5.2
Parry: 2 4.368
total: 10.94 41.808

Effective EPS w/o BU:
41.808/10.94 = 3.82 EPS

BU: 1.17 5.2

Effective EPS with BU:
(4*41.808+5.2)/(4*10.94+1.17) = 3.84 EPS

The BS chain will use less endurance than the Claws chain (86% as much).

If your DPS numbers above are correct, BS will actually have better effective DPE too.

DPE = DPS/EPS

Claws: 5.2/4.44 = 1.19 DPE
BS w/ BU: 4.7/3.84 = 1.22 DPE

How about that.
Claws* does more damage, but BS uses less end...

*At least using this chain that includes AS

[ QUOTE ]
Yay for Claws!

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm with you on this one.

nebber · 06-17-2006 09:44 AM

Whoa. That's a lot of numbers.

The reason I put parry in the chain is I couldn't find another chain in the planner that allowed for a higher-damage attack to be cycled twice within the time it takes for headsplitter and disembowel to come back. Maybe a veteran BS'er can post a chain they use, and we can put that into the DPS calculations and see what the difference is.

As far as the accuracy competition, you're right. I completely forgot about the defense debuffs from the BS attacks. I recall hearing they are short-lived, so I imagine they will dissolve some during the 2-3 sec activation time attacks. It probably balances.

As far as the endurance, I think Claws still maintains an edge, due to slotting considerations. For pretty much all high-end characters attacks, 5 of your slots are spoken for (2 acc, 3 dmg). For the reduced recharge of claws attacks (helped alot by quickness if you're /SR), you can afford making the 6th slot an endurance redux. Broadswords will have a bit tougher decision, because the slower recharges will probably make them opt for recharge enhancements to improve DPS.

This is so vaguely theoretical at this point, I couldn't really claim it. I've just heard of so many BS/non-regens complaining they suck wind bad in extended fights. The attack chain planner I used for the BS calculations showed them hitting 0 endurance quicker than the claws.

So, at least we're not arguing whether or not claws is now the DPS king or not--we're all in agreement on that. Though, I'll be happy to recalculate the difference if we are offered a better BS chain for consideration.

Stargazer · 06-17-2006 01:41 PM

Hmm...

I thought the DPE numbers looked a little odd, so I looked into it a bit closer. It seems like you truncate numbers instead of rounding them (191/40 = 4.8, not 4.7. You seem to have done the same for the BIs of the attacks (2.7778 -> 2.7 instead of 2.8)). This ends up hurting Claws more than BS, thus making Claws look (comparatively) bad.

Since I calculated DPE from DPS/EPS, this also affected my DPE numbers.

So... I recalculated from the start, and that makes things look a little better for Claws.
(I replaced Parry with AS. It should still not be a "good" chain, but at least it's a small improvement).

Bottom line is that Claws (still) ends up with better DPS than BS (about 12% better).
The Claws chain also has better DPE (about 6% better).
The Claws chain still uses more End/time (about 5% more)

If anyone wants to see all the calculations behind it, I can post them...

BS can do better on DPS, but that'll make its EPS increase too.

[ QUOTE ]
As far as the accuracy competition, you're right. I completely forgot about the defense debuffs from the BS attacks. I recall hearing they are short-lived, so I imagine they will dissolve some during the 2-3 sec activation time attacks. It probably balances.

[/ QUOTE ]

IIRC, they have a duration of 10 seconds. Same as FU and Slash.

[ QUOTE ]
As far as the endurance, I think Claws still maintains an edge, due to slotting considerations. For pretty much all high-end characters attacks, 5 of your slots are spoken for (2 acc, 3 dmg). For the reduced recharge of claws attacks (helped alot by quickness if you're /SR), you can afford making the 6th slot an endurance redux. Broadswords will have a bit tougher decision, because the slower recharges will probably make them opt for recharge enhancements to improve DPS.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's hard to say since there are so many possibilities. We should keep in mind that FU already has 3 recharges "locked in" in your chain, and that FU is the most end heavy attack in the chain...
My hunch is that some sort of average wouldn't really change things much. Claws will probably still have better DPE but worse EPS (meaning it still has better DPS).

[ QUOTE ]
This is so vaguely theoretical at this point, I couldn't really claim it. I've just heard of so many BS/non-regens complaining they suck wind bad in extended fights. The attack chain planner I used for the BS calculations showed them hitting 0 endurance quicker than the claws.

[/ QUOTE ]

Except for Claws, single target DPE is the same for all sets. That means that when BS users complain about using too much end, they are essentially complaining about doing too much damage.

For fun, I ran those two original chains through Hero Builder's attack chain planner, and for BS it showed the exact same EPS I got. For Claws it showed a worse EPS. This is because Hero Planner doesn't have the same Claws numbers as nofuture.

So there's little doubt that using those chains, Claws uses more end/time than BS.

However, Claws also has better DPE, so for dealing a given amount of damage, Claws will use less endurance.

High EPS isn't too much to worry about. If nothing else, you can always stop for a few seconds every now and then.

[ QUOTE ]
So, at least we're not arguing whether or not claws is now the DPS king or not--we're all in agreement on that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't go that far. Claws seems to beat BS (at least using these chains, and I doubt BS chains can improve enough to make up the difference), but BS is hardly a top contender for the title. Quite the opposite.

The powersets to beat are MA, Spines and DA.

Stupid_Fanboy · 06-17-2006 01:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hmm...

I thought the DPE numbers looked a little odd, so I looked into it a bit closer. It seems like you truncate numbers instead of rounding them (191/40 = 4.8, not 4.7. You seem to have done the same for the BIs of the attacks (2.7778 -> 2.7 instead of 2.8)). This ends up hurting Claws more than BS, thus making Claws look (comparatively) bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

allthe more reason to switch from BI to DS!

2.7778 = 1.0.

really tough to fudge the rounding on that.

Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.

▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲

DuoGirl · 06-17-2006 01:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So, at least we're not arguing whether or not claws is now the DPS king or not--we're all in agreement on that.

[/ QUOTE ]

As stated earlier in this thread, I do not agree. Read carefully.

[ QUOTE ]
For extended fights, like an AV or GM, Dark Melee should have the highest DPS of all scrapper primaries. I used the following attack chain:

Shadow Punch -> Smite -> Midnight Grasp -> Shadow Punch -> Boxing -> Smite -> Shadow Punch -> Boxing -> Shadow Maul

Calculations were made assuming you activate Hasten (3 SO rchg), then Soul Drain (3 SO rchg) and hit 7 targets (78,4% damage bonus vs. even level). After that you cycle through the chain 3 times until Soul Drain bonus drops and 2 more cycles until you use Soul Drain again. All attacks have 3 SOs damage and no recharge enhancement is needed.

While Hasten is active you achieve a DPS of 6,96 BI/s. Compared to claws with 5,2 BI/s this is pretty high. Now count in that Hasten is only up 2/3rd of the time, your overall DPS drops to 6,19 BI/s (Edit: Calculated with the resulting attack chain and some gaps). Quickness is not required for this.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
The powersets to beat are MA, Spines and DA.

[/ QUOTE ]

The powerset to beat is dark melee, which is kinda underrated in my oppinion. Try to.

Regards,
Negative One

Stargazer · 06-17-2006 02:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
allthe more reason to switch from BI to DS!

[/ QUOTE ]

Then you'll be glad to hear that I used DS in my calculations...