Kin/Elec Meleefender Guide v3.0 (Issue 5 Update)
By
Amy_Amp,
Posted on: 2005-08-30 10:52 in Player Guides
Electric Blast
Before I get to the powers, let me explain something. New to this version of the guide, I'm going to be recommending that you slot a recharge reduction in most attacks. I'm doing that because I've pretty much figured out that you're going to get a better return on your slotting investment if the powers are coming back faster, than if you simply slot for more damage. Since I wrote the last version of this guide, Fulcrum Shift's damage buff component has increased, so it should more than cover the amount of damage you're going to lose by replacing a single damage SO with a recharge SO. Please, just try it. If you don't like it you can switch back to 5 dmg 1 acc, but I think you'll like it.
<ul type="square">[*]Charged Bolts - Quick, low damage attack with a fast recharge.
Quason Sez: Like you have a choice. I don't bother slotting this, the damage output just isn't high enough to justify it. I slot 1 dmg.
[*]Lightning Bolt - Good damage, slower than Charged bolts.
Quason Sez: I like this attack. Respectable damage, fast animation, decent recharge. I slot 4 dmg, 1 recharge, 1 acc.
[*]Ball Lightning - Targetted AoE. Great damage, decent recharge.
Quason Sez:YEAH baby. This is my bread and butter attack. Some of you that have read my posts may have heard me mention "slinging AoE electric death." This is the power I use to do that. I slot 4 dmg, 1 recharge, 1 acc.
[*]Short Circuit - PBAoE DoT attack with a major end drain component and -recovery debuff. Decent recharge.
Quason Sez: This is it... this is the power you rolled your kin/elec for. It's all about Short Circuit. This power is what keeps you alive and slinging electric AoE death. Don't think of this as an attack, altho once you've hit a fulcrum shift or two it WILL do some pretty respectable damage. Instead, think of this as your primary means of defense. This is the most important power in your first layer of defense. Properly slotted, SC will completely drain anything up to +3 and keep them drained with the -recovery debuff. I just can't stress enough how crucial this power is to the build. 6 slot is as soon as possible. There's some debate over how to actually slot this. Personally, I don't slot for accuracy, but some argue that you should. However, I prefer to slot for quality over quantity with short circuit. I'd rather completely drain everything I hit and miss a few than hit more mobs and risk leaving them with enough endurance to continue attacking. Slot for 6 end drain, your other 3 layers of defense will handle the damage from any mobs you miss, and the power recharges fast enough (especially if you've got a siphon speed or two on you) to hit it again and catch the few you missed.
[*]Aim - Self accuracy and damage buff. If I'm not mistaken, this boosts your acc by 100% and your damage by 50%.
Quason Sez: Personally, I just don't find this all that useful. The damage buff is worthless to me since I'm capping my damage with fulcrum shift anyway, and the accuracy bonus doesn't last long enough to be all that useful. It'd be nice to use before you run into a spawn to use Short Circuit, but I needed room in my build for other powers and this was the first thing to get the axe. If you take it, don't slot it.
[*]Zapp - Single target snipe. Good damge, long activation, long recharge.
Quason Sez: Skip this. You're going to be in melee range, and the activation time is interruptible. You'll rarely be in a postion to use it.
[*]Tesla Cage - Single target hold with DoT.
Quason Sez: Love this power. Anyone who's familiar with my previous guides will know that I recommended against this, but I changed my mind. I'm allowed to do that, you know. I'll discuss strategy in a moment, but basically I use this to remove annoying mobs like Malta Sappers from the fight, as well as any mobs I may have missed with Short Circuit. Also, two applications (and it recharges VERY fast) will hold a boss. Personally, I have HOs in this power. 3 Acc/Mez, 3 Dmg/Mez. However, if you don't have HOs, slot 2 acc, 4 hold duration.
[*]Voltaic Sentinel - Damage dealing pet. It will use Charged Bolts exactly 10 times, then disappear.
Quason Sez: Skip this. As I mentioned earlier, the survivability of this build is based entirely on the skill of the player. As a result, playing this build requires precision. Having a mindless pet that shoots at anything it sees is counterproductive to that.
[*]Thunderous Blast - The only ranged "nuke" in the game. Massive damage, long activation time, long recharge, completely drains your endurance and prevents you from regaining it for a few seconds.
Quason Sez: There's actually a lot of debate about this power. I'd say this is completely optional and at the discretion of the player. Personally, I don't take it because I hate having to turn my toggles back on after I use it. However, if you do take it, please don't slot it. Any spawn large enough to justify using this attack on is going to be large enough to cap your damage on using Fulcrum Shift.[/list]
Power Pools
I'll list the pools I don't think you should take and why first, then list the four I think you should take.
Presence
I don't think I have to tell you why this is a bad idea. There's just no reason for anyone to take this pool at this point, imho.
Medicine
Say it with me, folks: "We are NOT healers.. We are NOT healers.." You've already got a heal. It's good enough. There's nothing in this pool you need.
Teleportation
Do you really wanna be the guy that has to go to the mission door and Recall everyone there while they go take bio breaks and make sandwiches? Me either. Skip this.
Flight
People generally take this pool for hover. It's a great power, don't get me wrong, but it's just not the right choice for a melee-centered build. You want to be right up in the mobs' hostile little faces (Fight Club reference for you, there), not floating 10 feet over their heads.
Leadership
Okay, here's where we get controversial. Personally, I've NEVER liked leadership, but after having recently done a quick and dirty poll of kin/elecs and what pools they took, I ended up looking like a moron since just about all of them had leadership. *shrug* Oh well. However, I'm still going to stick by my recommendation to skip leadership, especially in light of Issue 5 (I'll specifically address Issue 5 in another section). Since the Defense of maneuvers has been gutted in I5, Assault is completely worth less for a kinetic with fulcrum shift, and Vengeance requires a dead ally, the only really useful power in the pool is Tactics. I'm just not a big fan of blowing one of my four pool choices on a pool that I'm only going to use one power from. So, I still say skip this.
Fighting
I recommend that you take this pool, and then respec out of it later. Why? It's our third layer of defense. You have to throw away a power by taking either boxing or kick (doesn't matter which, you won't use either), but Tough is well worth it before you get your APP. Don't bother getting Weave, however. It's defense was also gutted in Issue 5. Also, don't worry too much about slotting tough. You won't really have the slots to spare for it, and the small amount of base resistance to smashing and lethal it gives you is going to be enough for now.
Fitness
The general wisdom is that kinetic defenders can get away with skipping this pool, and for the most part they're right, but for this build I still recommend that you take it. This is a VERY hectic and VERY aggressive build, requiring you to click buttons just as fast as your little fingers will move. As a result, you use a HELL of a lot of endurance. You're going to need both Stamina and Transference to stay ahead of the curve. Take Swift and Health, but don't slot them. Then take Stamina and 6 slot it as you're able.
Concealment
Stealth is a BIG part of this build, as I'll explain in a moment. I previously recommended that you slot stealth heavily for defense, but the defense component is supressed after you attack in Issue 5, so I'm backing off on that. Just leave it with the single slot and put an end reducer in there. If you want to take grant invis and phase shift, that's fine, but it's not necessary.
Leaping
As I mentioned when I discussed Inertial Reduction, I recommend you take this pool as your travel power rather than relying on IR. The reason is knockback. Like I said, this build requires that you're always active. If you slack off even for a moment, things can get very bad for you very quickly. That's why knockback is so deadly to this build. Those few seconds that you're on your back, your opponents are regaining their endurance and negating your first layer of defense. Acrobatics to the rescue! Acro has a very high magnitude protection against knockback. It will get broken through once in a while, but it's rare. This is hands down, far and away the best defense against knockback available to you. Combat Jumping is also nice for immob protection, but immob isn't nearly as fatal as knockback for the build. Take Combat Jumping (1 end redux), Super Jump (1 jump), and Acrobatics (1 end redux).
Speed
This pool is absolutely critical to the build. Hasten gets Short Circuit back up more often, enabling you to keep your foes perma-drained. Super Speed, when stacked with Stealth, grants you completely invisibility, which you'll need to position yourself to open fights with Short Circuit. Simply put, this build won't work without the Speed pool.
Ancillary Power Pool (APP)
The APPs were put into place in order to help shore up weaknesses in the Archetypes in the later levels. For kinetics, it's generally a toss-up between Electric Mastery and Power Mastery. The other two, while occasionally useful, just don't offer the tools that these two APPs offer kinetics. It seems like most kin/elecs take the Electric Mastery, but that's a bad idea for this build. I'll explain...
This build does massive amounts of AoE damage. "Slinging AoE electric death," remember? Well, the problem is that it doesn't do very well in the single target department. You'll see a spawn of 15 minions and LTs in a hazard zone and think "Lunch." You'll see a boss by himself in a mission and get nervous. It's just the nature of the beast. You'll take down the boss fairly safetly, but it'll take you a while. Power Mastery is the cure for that. Lets take a look at the powers...
<ul type="square">[*]Conserve Power - This power isn't all that great for us. Between stamina and transference, we're good on endurance. You can probably skip this.
[*]Power Build Up - Not only does this increase our damage output, making that boss easier to kill, but it also increases pretty much everything else we do to him as well. It makes our end drain powers more effective, it makes our Telsa Cage hold last longer on him, and if you don't want to go through the trouble of stacking two Tesla Cages on him, it makes the disorient effect of Total Focus last longer. This is just a great power all around. Slot this with whatever you can spare when you get it, all recharge.
[*]Temp Invul - Toggled resistance to smashing and lethal. The base is huge, so it's very noticable. Even after applying your first two layers of defense (drain and damage debuff), you'll notice a sizable decrease in the damage you're taking once you have this power. Slot it ASAP with 5 resistance, 1 end redux.
[*]Total Focus - LOVE love love this attack. This is the reason we're going with Power Mastery instead of Electric Mastery. While Thunder Strike, the equivalent power in Electric Mastery does similar damage, its secondary effect isn't nearly as good. Thunder Strike has a minor disorient effect that happens so rarely it can't be counted on at all, and even worse, it knocks back. As we discussed with Repel, knockback is BAD! Total Focus has a 100% disorient effect (at least I think it's 100%, i've never seen it NOT disorient) and doesn't knockback. Best of all, the disorient is longer than the recharge of the attack, meaning that you can keep a single target perma-stunned just by using this power. I slot 4 damage, 1 recharge, 1 acc.[/list]
You're going to play slightly differently depending on whether you're alone or grouped, so I'll deal with each separately.
Solo Strategy
The key here is stealth. You want to make sure you can position yourself for maximum effect without being interrupted. Spot your targets, make sure you have your toggled resistance power active (tough or temp invul), and make sure you have superspeed and stealth active. Position yourself so that every mob in the spawn is in range of your short circuit. Now, the fun begins.
You're going to take some damage here, and if there are mezzers in the group, you're going to get mezzed here. MAKE SURE YOU HAVE A FULL TRAY OF BREAK FREES AT ALL TIMES. I can't stress that enough. You don't need reds, you don't need blues, you don't need yellows, you don't need awakens. Bring a full tray of break frees everywhere you go. Don't worry about using them before the fight, just use them to free yourself once you're mezzed. This is why that third layer of defense (damage resistance) is so important. The mobs will aggro on you the moment you click Short Circuit, but won't actually be drained until the activation time is over, 3 seconds later. This pretty much gives everything you're fighting a free shot at you. However, with tough or temp invul, you should be able to easily survive that initial volley.
At this point, all or most of your opponents are completely drained and standing there patiently waiting on you to beat them senseless. If you've taken some damage from the alpha strike, now is a good time to hit Transfusion. Before you do anything else, use Siphon Power. The target doesn't really matter, but if there's a boss, target that. Now use Fulcrum Shift. Not only is your damage capped, or almost capped, but you've also applied your second layer of defense - damage debuffing. If you were mezzed and had to use a break free, bring back up your resistance toggle and acrobatics now. Your other toggles aren't necessary at this point. Now you're ready to start slinging some AoE electric death.
Ball Lightning is your best attack at this point. Everything should be gathered pretty tightly around you and standing there helplessly. Hurt them. Always keep in mind that your first priority power is Short Circuit. SC should NEVER sit in your tray charged and unused. If you have to delay an attack for a second or two to wait for SC, do it. DPS is meaningless when you're dead. The great thing about that, however, is that after the first application of short circuit when you open the battle, any subsequent application will be enjoying the benefits of Fulcrum Shift, making SC not only your primary line of defense, but a DAMN fine AoE attack as well.
Pretty much just chain Ball Lightning and Short Circuit till everything dies. When you need healing, use transfusion. When you need endurance, use Transference. As Fulcrum Shift becomes available, use it. The more you stack it, the more damage you're doing (until you cap) and the less damage you're taking. If there's a boss mixed in with the group you're fighting, make sure he's your target and use your single target attacks (lightning bolt and total focus if you have it) as they become available. Once you've got your first two layers of defense applied, you're safe. You can kill at your leisure. Keep telsa cage in mind... if you notice that you're still taking damage, look around for a mob you may have missed with short circuit and use tesla cage to remove him from the fight.
Once the fight is over, just make sure you bring up all your toggles (if you were mezzed) and repeat the process. The trick is learning the attack chain, or rather the lack of one. A meleefender doesn't have a particular pattern of powers he uses. He uses what he needs, when he needs it. In time, you'll develop a sense of what you need to do. Just remember your priorities. Short Circuit, Fulcrum Shift, then everything else as necessary.
Team Strategy
The way you play on a team isn't very different from the way you play solo, but it's different enough to warrant its own explanation.
If there's a tanker or scrapper, let them go in first, but don't be too far behind them. Give them just a couple of seconds to take the alpha strike, then follow them in and fire off short circuit. At this point, you and your entire team are safe. From here, you can pretty much behave exactly as you would solo. Just always remember your priorities (short circuit and fulcrum shift). If you notice that a mob has broken away from the main pack and is heading toward your blasters, just toss a tesla cage at it.
The difference between solo and team strategy comes into play against AVs. Remember how I said that this build suffers from a lack of single target damage? Nowhere is this more apparent than in AV fights. You just don't have the damage to contribute meaningfully in this particular situation. Also, AVs can't be end drained, so there goes your first layer of defense. However, you can be VERY useful if you stop focusing on drain and damage and start focusing on debuffing.
This is where Siphon Power is useful. As I mentioned, when you stack SiphP and FS, that's a -50% damage debuff on that single target. With two clicks, you can cut the damage potential of the AV in half. Reapply those powers as they come available to stack them, and you can very quickly reduce an AV to the 5% damage floor. Basically, you've just trivialized the fight. Keep those debuffs up and it's just a matter of time till the AV dies.
AAAAhhhh, but you can contribute to how quickly the AV dies as well. Not so much with the damage you're doing, but with another debuff: -regen. AVs have a very high level of regeneration, essentially negating a portion of the damage being done to it. Transfusion, however, has a -regen debuff. A few applications of transfusion, and you floor the AV's regeneration, making the fight go MUCH faster. Simply rotate Siphon Power, Siphon Speed, Transfusion, Fulcrum Shift and Total Focus if you have it and you become the worst thing that ever happened to Arch-Villians.
Just to give you some perspective on how powerful this can be, concider Nightstar. She uses Nova when you get her to 25% health, one-shotting defenders, controllers, blasters and very nearly killing some scrappers. However, when I fight her and use the tactics I mentioned above, her Nova does about 200 damage. Yeah, you read right... 200. So the attack that makes most teams run like hell when they see her approach 25% becomes a joke. Most minion attacks at that level do more than 200 damage.
The Build
Now, I'm not going to be so arrogant as to say "You must use my build or you will be teh gimp!" However, I have tested this particular build EXTENSIVELY, tweaking powers, slots, pools, etc. I promise you, this build works. However, what works for you and your own particular habits and playstyle might vary, so by all means, definately play around with it on test before you spec into it on live and make sure it works for you.
Exported from version 1.5A of CoH Planner
http://joechott.com/coh
Archetype: Defender
Primary Powers - Ranged : Kinetics
Secondary Powers - Support : Electrical Blast
01 : Charged Bolts dam(01)
01 : Tranfusion acc(01) hel(3) hel(3) hel(5) hel(5) hel(7)
02 : Lightning Bolt acc(02) recred(7) dam(9) dam(9) dam(11) dam(11)
04 : Siphon Power acc(04) recred(13) recred(13)
06 : Hasten recred(06) recred(15) recred(15) recred(17) recred(17) recred(19)
08 : Siphon Speed acc(08) acc(19) recred(21) recred(46) recred(50)
10 : Short CIrcuit enddrn(10) enddrn(21) enddrn(23) enddrn(23) enddrn(25) enddrn(25)
12 : Speed Boost endrec(12) endrec(27)
14 : Super Speed endred(14)
16 : Ball Lightning acc(16) recred(27) dam(29) dam(29) dam(31) dam(31)
18 : Swift runspd(18)
20 : Health hel(20)
22 : Stamina endrec(22) endrec(31) endrec(33) endrec(33) endrec(33) endrec(34)
24 : Stealth endred(24)
26 : Transference acc(26) endrec(34) endrec(34) recred(36) recred(36) recred(36)
28 : Tesla Cage acc(28) acc(37) hlddur(37) hlddur(37) hlddur(39) hlddur(39)
30 : Combat Jumping endred(30)
32 : Fulcrum Shift acc(32) acc(39) recred(40) recred(40) recred(40) recred(42)
35 : Super Jump jmp(35)
38 : Acrobatics endred(38)
41 : Power Buildup recred(41) recred(42) recred(42) recred(43) recred(43) recred(43)
44 : Temp Invulnerability recred(44) recred(45) recred(45) recred(45) recred(46) recred(46)
47 : Total Focus acc(47) recred(48) dam(48) dam(48) dam(50) dam(50)
49 : Increase Density damres(49)
-------------------------------------------
01 : Brawl Empty(01)
01 : Sprint Empty(01)
02 : Rest Empty(02)
You'll notice that I have more slots in Siphon Speed than I recommended earlier. The reason for that is the fact that I had some slots left over at the end of the build. Otherwise, this build exactly reflects all my earlier recommendations. As far as your damage resistance pre-APP, just be sure to work the fighting pool in there somewhere and respec back out of it once you get Temp Invul later on. This is just what the build is going to look like once you finish.
Issue 5
Okay, I hesitate to put this in here, but it has to be done for the sake of completeness. I don't want to get into a big thing here about how much the nerfs suck, but we do have to address them in order to stay effective.
<ul type="square"> [*]AoE limit - I'm not going to go into specifics (check the patch notes), but the point is that your AoE powers are limited in the number of mobs they can affect starting in issue 5. This doesn't affect the Kinetics line at all - Fulcrum Shift is still going to hit enough mobs to cap your damage. However, it's a huge kick in the balls to Short Circuit. If I'm not mistaken, Short Circuit will only affect 10 mobs, meaning your first layer of defense is only effective up to 10 mobs. That's perfectly fine for solo play since you will rarely, if ever, encounter spawns later than 10 solo, but it can be a problem in larger teams. Concider sticking to smaller teams, or playing a more traditional defender role in larger teams (hanging back, buffing, etc).
[*]Tesla Cage - All non-controller holds have had their duration cut. However, I'm fairly certain that it can still perma-hold if you slot 2 acc 4 hold duration (or a suitable combination of SOs and HOs). This should affect us too harshly.
[*]Blaster Cap - Blasters had their damage cap increased from 400% to 500%. This means that our damage buffs are now useful on them. So, if you decide you want to back up to the blasters and hit fulcrum shift, that's fine. Just keep in mind that you'll be missing out on most of the damage buff yourself. That's your business. Personally, this won't affect my playstyle in the slightest.[/list]
As far as I know, these are the only changes in I5 that potentially affect this build.
Conclusion
Playstyle is a very odd thing. Something that I find mindnumbingly boring, you might really enjoy, and vice versa. For that reason, this build is not for everyone. However, I would urge anyone who already has a kin/elec and doesn't play this way to at least hit the test server and try it out. You might actually like it. This isn't a "turn your brain off and kill things" build. You're going to be flying by the seat of your pants at all times. Any little screw up and you'll probably be face planting. And faceplant you will... often. But don't let that deter you... unlike some builds where your survival is beyond your control, this one depends solely on you. If you die, you'll know why.
In my opinion, this is absolutely the most fun you'll ever have in this game. It's hectic, it's fast paced, it's aggressive, and it's exhausting... but it's incredibly fun. No matter how many times I've done it, and no matter how long I play Captain Voltaic, completely neutering a spawn with a single click of Short Circuit just never gets old. I still chuckle to myself a bit everytime I do it.
Acknowledgements
Thanks go out to LuchadorFuerte for his fantastic team-oriented Kinetic Guide, Ladioss_Sopp for his kinetics guide from which all of the numbers in this guide are taken, Sir_Payens and his contribution to the kinetics community over the last 15 months, El_Rico who no longer posts here but was the original inspiration for the Meleefender build and this guide, Hoist for showing me how powerful a kin/elec could be in the first place, DarkCurrent for giving me a supergroup home when no one else would, the defender community as a whole for always being so helpful, The Mighty Storm for being such a hilarious jerk, and Bionexus for creating The Valiant, best damn SG on the Protector server. Thanks as well to everyone who took the time to trudge through my egotistical babbling and read this guide.
Very nice guide, 5 stars!
One question though however:
I'm thining about ditching Stamina in favor of a 6-slotted Tactics and replacing the first +acc SO in all powers with an -end SO. The plan is to give SC the +toHit it needs to cap and side benefits of having +tohit instead of just +acc. One end redux SO does not completely replace Stamina, but should be enough to get by in conjunction with Transference.
What is your opinion on that?
[ QUOTE ]
One end redux SO does not completely replace Stamina, but should be enough to get by in conjunction with Transference.
[/ QUOTE ]
Keep in mind that you're also adding a toggle into the mix when you run Tactics, too. Honestly, I don't know if it would work or not. I've never tried that, but not because I didn't think it would work so much as I just didn't want any more toggles. Like I mentioned in the tactics section, you WILL get mezzed. Often. There's just no way around it. So, everytime you get mezzed, you're going to have to pop a break free (just like I do), then retoggle.
Assuming you have Temp Invul and Acro like my guide suggests...
Acro - 2 sec activation
TI - 3 sec
Tactics - 4 sec
That's 9 seconds of activation times after a mez just to get back up to minimum operating efficiency. Might be a problem.
Try it out on test though, and drop me a PM. Let me know how it works.
First of all, I can't feel comfortable at all with SC not having any +acc or +tohit buffs. I mean, hitting only 50% to 75% of the mobs in a spawn is not acceptable to me.
With that said, I've been using SC in conjunction with Aim to ensure high chance to hit. However, since Aim cannot be made perma I still have to slot +acc SOs.
Tactics, however, if properly slotted, can actually replace +acc SOs. One pool needs to go though, and Stamina looks like it can be somewhat replaced by slotting -end SOs. Hence my first reply.
Now I'm very wary of Tactic's activation time too, but if I manage to fire off SC and have it miss at most 1-2 mobs, I can afford to get mezzed and still have enough time to at least bring up Tactics, fire off Transfusion and SC again. Then I can worry about the other toggles, FS and BL. I won't have to worry about Acro for the duration of the BF, I won't have to worry about Stealth for the remaining of the fight... I don't think the armor will make that huge of a difference. If I get mezzed first before taking the alpha my armor would make zero difference.
I've been looking at alternatives since, and there seem to be a few.
1. Replace ID with Aim. Kinda self-explanatory. Most people probably don't even know about this power. Those that do probably would rather rely on their own supply of BF...
2. Replace one +drain SO in SC with +acc. Loose around 10% of effectiveness in SC. That would make PBU mandatory for anything above even con?
3. Keep Stamina, replace Stealth and ID with Maneuver and Tactics. With the way how SC works post I4 (mobs aware of you at the beginning of the animation) there shouldn't be much of a difference, in terms of incoming dmg, between jousting with CJ/Hurdle+SS and standing still with Stealth+SS before firing off SC. Still have issue with Tactic's activation, but at least you have one extra slot on many powers to spend on something that's not +acc or -end.
All this talk so far is just theoretical because to be honest I have not touched my Kin/Elec for a couple months now. Your guide sparked my interest again and for that I thank you =]
I was going to Test a build or two be unfortunately the Character Transfer tool is either not working or has a huge backlog ATM. I'm thinking about just respeccing on Live before the new freespec hits tomorrow...
[ QUOTE ]
<ul type="square"> [*]Tesla Cage - All non-controller holds have had their duration cut. However, I'm fairly certain that it can still perma-hold if you slot 2 acc 4 hold duration (or a suitable combination of SOs and HOs). This should affect us too harshly.[/list]
[/ QUOTE ]
I only just got around to Caging stuff I5-style for the first time tonight (didn't take my Kin/Elec over to test). I could lock guys down pretty thoroughly on 1acc 2hold and Hasten. Not as long as before, but long enough for my needs.
Good stuff, Q.
Later on,
Gatecrasher
P.S. Umm, did you mean "should" or "shouldn't?"
@Generator
Mostly Pinnacle, with scattered alts on Liberty, Freedom, and Justice.
I had a great time playing with you!
Meant shouldn't. didn't even notice the typo till you just pointed it out and it's too late to edit it now. Oh well.
But yeah, I tested cage a few mins ago and I'm still perma-holding even con bosses with it. No problems there.
As far as the previous poster's comments about accuracy in SC, it's really not a concern because of the layers of defense I mentioned. You're always going to miss a few with SC, even if you slotted 6 acc. There's always that hard-coded 5% chance to miss. That's why you have damage debuffing, damage res, and healing to back it up.
Even if I miss 50% of the mobs (rare, but it happens, thus is life when you're relying on to-hit rolls), i'm still fine. My other three layers of defense are going to keep me safe until SC recharges again. I've ALWAYS had 6 drain in SC, I've NEVER had tactics, and i've never had any problems with it.
Would it be better to do it your way? Maybe, if that's your playstyle. It won't make a major impact on the build either way. It's just a matter of whether or not you can do without stamina. Personally, I hate running low on endurance. Like I said, to-hit rolls are a b!tch. You're eventually going to miss wiht transference. That's my justification anyway. If it works better for you your way, go with that. At least try it my way on test before you make up your mind though. Like I said, I've spent hundreds of hours tinkering with this build. I know it works. However, what works for me might not work for you. YMMV. 
Absolutely great guide. It is brilliant because you provide vivid explanations of why it works.
Quason,
I just want to start off by saying you wrote an excellent guide.
Your guide inspired me to rollup a Kin/Elec Defender.
I realize that it's a play style thing but, I feel it needs to said that I disagree with a single point in your guide.
[ QUOTE ]
Healing - Say it with me guys - "We are NOT healers. We are NOT healers..." However, we DO have a heal.
[/ QUOTE ]
We are not EMPATHS, but we can be great healers.
I have Transfusion 3 slotted with recharges and hasten and when the going gets tough, I can spam heal with transfusion every other power activation. Sure the timing is bad every once in a while and someone dies but, it's saved lives 20 times for everytime it's failed.
With Speed Boost and Transfusion you can turn anyone into a I4 REGEN Scrapper !!! 
I will concede that my experience is based on my KIN/RAD who is happy to buff/debuff/heal constantly and not from flinging Electric Death to Drained oppenents like your Kin/Elec .
I'll let you know if my opinion changes once I level up my Kin/Elec
Centinull
Awesome guide...having a blast with my Kin/Elec...currently level 13.
2 quick questions for you though:
1.) You say to try and work in Tough before level 40ish when APPs come in, yet every power in your build before 40 seems quite critical to your build. Any suggestions on what to scrap to make room for Tough? I was thinking of skipping the Leaping pool for it...is level 30ish too late to be taking the armor?
2.) Any thoughts on 6 slotting Thunderous Blast for Recharge and using it in your attack chain? I know you said you didn't like reactivating toggles, but if you could PBU, SC, FS, TB; and then have TB recharge fast enough to be up every other spawn (possibly quicker) it seems to me like it would be well worth it. Who cares if your toggles are down when the entire spawn is dead?
Any thoughts?
Hey Q,
you stated:
"Temp Invul - Toggled resistance to smashing and lethal. The base is huge, so it's very noticable. Even after applying your first two layers of defense (drain and damage debuff), you'll notice a sizable decrease in the damage you're taking once you have this power. Slot it ASAP with 5 resistance, 1 end redux.
then later in the build you have:
44 : Temp Invulnerability recred(44) recred(45) recred(45) recred(45) recred(46) recred(46)
just for editorial.
I like this guide and definately look to use something close to it 
Quason, here's my build plan up to the point where I get Temp Invulnrability. I kept Siphon Speed and actually placed it earlier, so I get the added convenience of using it as a travel power until level 14. Dropped out the leaping pool, added Boxing and Tough, and since I had a leftover power added Aim temporarily...seemed better than Weave or Combat Jumping. Do you have any pointers?
Exported from version 1.5A of CoH Planner
http://joechott.com/coh
Archetype: Defender
Primary Powers - Ranged : Kinetics
Secondary Powers - Support : Electrical Blast
01 : Charged Bolts acc(01)
01 : Tranfusion acc(01) hel(3) hel(3) hel(7) hel(17) hel(39)
02 : Lightning Bolt acc(02) dam(5) dam(5) dam(7) dam(17) recred(34)
04 : Siphon Power acc(04) recred(13) recred(43)
06 : Siphon Speed acc(06) acc(43) recred(43)
08 : Hasten recred(08) recred(9) recred(9) recred(15) recred(19) recred(34)
10 : Short CIrcuit enddrn(10) enddrn(11) enddrn(11) enddrn(15) enddrn(19) enddrn(33)
12 : Speed Boost endrec(12) endrec(13)
14 : Super Speed runspd(14)
16 : Hurdle jmp(16)
18 : Health hel(18)
20 : Stamina endrec(20) endrec(21) endrec(21) endrec(23) endrec(25)
22 : Ball Lightning acc(22) dam(23) dam(25) dam(29) dam(33) recred(34)
24 : Boxing acc(24)
26 : Transference acc(26) endrec(27) endrec(27) endrec(29) endrec(33) endrec(39)
28 : Tough damres(28) damres(31) damres(31) damres(31)
30 : Stealth endred(30)
32 : Fulcrum Shift acc(32) acc(36) recred(36) recred(37) recred(39) recred(40)
35 : Tesla Cage acc(35) acc(36) hlddur(37) hlddur(37) hlddur(40) hlddur(40)
38 : Aim recred(38)
41 : Power Buildup recred(41) recred(42) recred(42) recred(42)
-------------------------------------------
01 : Brawl enhancement(01)
01 : Sprint enhancement(01)
02 : Rest enhancement(02)
Okay, here's the thing... the ONLY reason I suggest the leaping pool is for acrobatics, and not for the lame mag 1 hold protection that doesn't even seem to work. I take it for knockback protection.
IMHO, the absolute worst status effect in the game for this build is knockback. As I pointed out in the game, my survival requires constant action on my part - draining, debuffing etc. If I'm on my back, even for just a couple of seconds, it can kill me. All it takes is for that boss to get just enough endurance back to smack me real hard and I'm making a trip to the hospital.
Not just that but... dammit, I really just plain HATE being knocked back. It just annoys me. So, the only solutions available to me are hover and acro, and since hover is really a bad idea for this build, that just leaves acro.
So if KB doesn't bother you, then you could certainly skip it and pick another pool. However, I'd caution you about Weave. The base def was pretty much gutted in I5. I don't have the exact numbers in front of me, but I believe the base def is something like 5% or less. You just don't get much return for your investment in slots for weave anymore. You may find it useful, but the numbers just bother me.
Oh, and yeah... the TI thing. I have NO idea what possessed me to put recreds in it on planner. Ignore that.
So I guess I'm not following you. In the guide you suggest to take Tough, then respec out of it into Temp Invulnrability in the 40s. However, for those of us who don't have 45th level kin/electrics already, we have to work our way up to it. So we need to drop at least two powers out of your build to get Toughness. What do you suggest, pre-respec? Acrobatics looks like the choice, because while knockback is assuradly annoying and potentially fatal, I don't see what else can be shifted around.
OOOH, you're talking about pre-APP. I didn't realize that. Yeah, definately trade acro for tough then. I must've misread your post or something because for some reason I thought you already had your APP and wanted tough/weave on top of that. My bad.
You're right, I'm wrong. Ignore me.
Don't be silly - I'm not going to ignore you, because your guide rocks! Thanks for the feedback. Kinestro is a blast so far.
Awesome guide, Quason! Thanks for all the hard work. You made me look at taking stealth in my build. Was hoping I could get by with SS but maybe sneaking that in there isn't a bad idea at all.
Stars 4 U!
I'm sorry but you clearly violated the exclamation point rule. You clearly used less then 15, thus your statement becomes one of less importance. In order for anyone to take you seriuosly you must use 15, or more, exclamation points in a row.
- Go_sabres
[ QUOTE ]
First of all, I can't feel comfortable at all with SC not having any +acc or +tohit buffs. I mean, hitting only 50% to 75% of the mobs in a spawn is not acceptable to me.
[/ QUOTE ]
SC has an inherent +Acc to it. It doesn't seem to miss all that much, certainly not as low as 75%. I find that if it does miss, a transference on the missed foe will take him out easily. Essentially, that negates the entire spawn. I would not go without all endurance drain in SC as it's all or nothing with endurance draining. If they're left with even 10% endurance, they're still fighting you which is bad.
In general, you can handle the attacks from a minion/leuit or two anyway so it's not a huge deal if there is an occasional miss.
[ QUOTE ]
2.) Any thoughts on 6 slotting Thunderous Blast for Recharge and using it in your attack chain? I know you said you didn't like reactivating toggles, but if you could PBU, SC, FS, TB; and then have TB recharge fast enough to be up every other spawn (possibly quicker) it seems to me like it would be well worth it. Who cares if your toggles are down when the entire spawn is dead?
[/ QUOTE ]
It works pretty well, you just need to be okay with retoggling. You can get Thunderous Blast to the point you can use it on almost every other spawn as you speculated.
To use it, I typically SC, FS then Thunderous. Pop a CAB, retoggle as necessary and run to the next spawn...SC, transference, and you're back to full power. Without Transference nearly charged or a CAB, I rarely use it.
It's fun, but it can be dangerous. I use it alot more in a team setting with someone who can take the alpha strike on the next spawn and let me get a free transference after I nuke.
-This is a great guide that helped me alot in building my Kin/El. I picked a few different powers/slots, but my build is pretty close.
Great guide Quason. I've enjoyed reading them with each change/issue. I have a couple questions thou.
1) In your lvl 50 build you have 5 pools inc. app. JollyRedgiant has 6, thou I realize he is respec'ing tough for app. So Quason, speed=must, stealth=must, fitness=must, jump=must, App/fighting=must ? Drop jump? but I like KB protection as well.
2) You said recently that said something about trading acro for tough in your build, if we wait till 35 to get tough, why not wait till 44 to get TI. Is it worth having tough for those 9 lvls?
Thanks for your wisdom or anyone else who can answer these questions. I'm not asking for someone to create my whole hero for me, but I'm really stuck on which 4 of the 5 pools I need the most.
Please be advised that this build is no longer viable.
Do NOT attempt to follow this guide. It was heavily reliant on perma-hasten, 6 slotted Short Circuit for drain, 6 slotted stamina for end recovery, and 6 slotted Temp Invul for damage resistance - none of which are possible at this point.
Anyone who has specced into this build would be well advised to respec into a more traditional kinetics role. I apologize for the inconvenience.
That and ELECTRIC now sucks worse than before... Man I wish I could change secondaries on my Kin/Elec.... oh well, I suppose it's a challenge (much like banging one's head on a wall).
My recommendation: DO NOT TAKE ELECTRIC. It's the crappiest secondary for a defender, IMHO. I'd much rather have RAD or DARK (something that is actually USEFUL against a mob).
I am finding that the health of a mob drops MUCH faster than the endurance; and ironically, Transfusion drains end better than ALL my electrical attacks.
Short Circuit doesn't seem to be what it once was AT ALL, and is now seemingly a wasted power. Sure, you can drain even cons quite a bit, and lowers, but you likely will kill them just as fast with a little tactics.
I am so depressed with this secondary set. I'm likely going to delete the toon (only level 16 now). I love kinetics, but electric is such a bummer now. Plus, is it me, or does it seem to MISS more often than any other secondary?
I think they should DRAMATICALLY lower the end-cost and forget the end-drain. Besides, the computer CHEATS, I've seen massive attacks fired off when the first sliver of blue is recharged by mobs. Pointless to drain end, now. Unless it's done with Transference and is taken all at once; for some reasong THAT seems to prevent mobs from attacking with their big attacks, but by the time one has transference, one should be able to 2-3 shot a mob solo in about the same time it takes to "soft-hold" them by draining end.
SC in PvP absoloutely SUCKS. Transference and Transfusion will drain more. And electric was supposed to be ALL ABOUT end draining. I really feel the set is broken, or at the very least GIMPED.
-FB
"Look how many pages of crap are in this thread already!" -r0y to all threads on these forums.
I have a lvl29 Kin/Elec which somehow became my main and I'm slowly thinking the toon is coming to a cross roads. There are times when I want to go into battle trying to do certain things and a lot of times I'm kind of guessing if I succeded, or not.
I think the only way to make SC work is if you slot it for recharge and thus can use multiple uses of it to get what you want, but as the previous poster mentioned transference can do this in terms of single target use much easier. I have no problem taking on a +2 boss and being able to strip it of it end to where it hardly attacks(still takes forever to kill though). I also don't like how baddies attacks seem to take almost no end to pull off and thus unless they have zero end they will be attacking.
I haven't changed my enchants to test this, but I think maybe putting end mod enchats in some of the other elec attacks may help the end drain happen/keep it going, but that's a guess. Still, it would be nice to have a three slotted SC actually wipe out end like you want it to. If it's going to hit everything around you, I would like to know my butt has a so many second protection from the reply.
In the end, if you slot SC with 3 end mods, 2-3 rechanges, and maybe 1 tohit enchat and that still doesn't make you happy, respec it out. If/When corruptors get a electric power set, I think a Elec/Kin will be much more towards the idea of what this build is about. Yes the lack of real end drain will be there, but at least the damage will be what you are looking for.
Also note the length of Tesla Cage is nerfed enough to where it's not the uber hold you would like it to be. I would still take it as a power though.
If somebody asked me if Kin/Elec was a good path to pick, I would be honest about it and not sweat too much if they did pick it. Since I already have a Kin/Elec and am a certified alt-o-holic, I would just be way more interested in seeing Kin with a different seconary for my own gaming fun. I know Sonic, Rad, and Dark work. I'm kind of interested to see how well psy does, or doesn't work.
I remember reading this guide before I had an account and thinking: "Yeah, that sounds like a heck of a lot of fun to play."
I got in the game and ED came out and I thought: "Wow, this seems like a complete waste of time under ED. I'm gonna roll something else. Anything else." And I did.
I thought it was a great guide. I'm really sorry it got nerfed.
It is/was a great guide! Obviously not the OP's fault that things got so nerfed (directly or indirectly); I always thought electric was on the edge of "sukiness / being just OK" - and it still looks and sounds great!
For concept reasons, it's still viable, but almost all of the electric blasters and defenders I know have shelved their toons (or deleted them outright).
I will delete mine as soon as I need a slot, but I re-rolled another defender (kin/rad) and we'll see how that goes (I love rad and kin, so I don't know why I didn't pick that combo in the first place).
Hopefully, they can tweak electric before I need the slot and delete my kin/elec.
-FB
"Look how many pages of crap are in this thread already!" -r0y to all threads on these forums.
Update Notes
First off, let me point out for anyone that might have been looking at my previous guide that so much has changed since that guide was written that this version will completely replace the last one. This is not going to be a compendium to v2.0. This guide will stand alone and include a LOT of new information and tactical suggestion. From now on, please disregard the previous version, as it no longer reflects my recommendations regarding the build.
Introduction and Argument
This guide is NOT intended to be an introduction to the Kinetics or Electric Blast powersets. I'm going to assume a certain level of familiarity with the powersets, so I won't be explaining each power in excruciating detail. For a very thorough and well-written introduction to the Kinetics powerset, please see LuchadorFuerte's guide.
This is a guide for a specific build using the Kinetics and Electric Blast powersets with a focus on melee range offense and defense. While it may appear to be a solo-only build, it isn't. I've spent a long time testing, tweaking, and perfecting this build with the intention of making it as solo-capable as possible while retaining usefulness in a team setting as well. This is the best balance I could find. Please be aware that this is a fairly difficult build to play, as it relies entirely upon your own skill rather than simply passive and toggled defenses to keep you alive. Whereas your typical scrapper or tanker's survival is binary in nature - he's either within his capabilities and immortal, or he's outside his capabilities and drops like a rock - the survivability of the Kin/Elec meleefender is solely dependant on the skill of the player. When you die (and you WILL die), you won't have to look far for the cause. For that reason, I do NOT recommend this build to anyone who might be new to City of Heroes, or even anyone who's new to defenders. My suggestion if you'd like to eventually follow this build would be to create a kin/elec defender and play it by LuchadorFuerte's guide. Then later, once you've advanced in levels and gotten a feel for the powersets and the archetype, concider respecing into my build.
Why Melee Range?
I get asked this a lot, and I can understand why. To someone unfamiliar with the build, it can seem strange for a defender to be in melee range with the tankers and scrappers. A defender's home is in the back with the blasters, right? Well, not in this case. I believe a Kinetic defender is much more effective when he stands up front with the meleers.
Take a look at the kinetics powerset:
<ul type="square">[*]Transfusion - AoE heal centered on the mob. Must be in melee range to benefit from your own heal.
[*]Transference - AoE endurance recovery centered on mob. Must be in melee range to benefit.
[*]Fulcrum Shift - This one is complicated, but also the best reason to be in melee range. When you activate this power, several things happen. First, the target and all mobs around him have their damage debuffed 25%. The debuff component is ranged, doesn't matter where you stand for that. However, the damage buffing component matters. There's a 50% damage buff centered around the caster, and a 25% AoE damage buff centered on each mob effected. In other words, I can stand back with the blasters and buff them 50%, while the meleers get buffed 25% for each mob. In that case, the only benefit that I the caster get is the 50% buff. However, if I stand in melee range, I and all the meleers get the full blown effect - the 50% caster buff and each of the 25% mob buffs. By concentrating the effect in this manner, I cap my meleers' damage and my own damage, rather than spreading out the effect.[/list]So, there's a very strong argument that kinetics should be in melee range anyway. Most kinetics do play this way, however most of them will run into melee range to active one of those three powers I mentioned, then run back out once they're done. That's all well and good, but personally, I find it a bit annoying. I'd rather just pick a spot and stay there. So, I choose to stay in melee range where I can be most effective.
Stayin' Alive
So, if I'm standing in melee range, how do I not die? Because as we all know, range = defense (blasters would argue with us about that, but that's the topic of another guide). So, what's my defense when I'm in melee range? Also, please note that when I'm saying "defense" (self-protection), not "Defense" (the % chance that mobs will miss you in the CoH game mechanic).
A kin/elec meleefender's defense is four-layered. The four layers, in order of importance are: End Drain, Damage Debuffing, Damage Resistance, and Healing. I'll give each of those four layers their own sub-heading in this section:
<ul type="square">[*]End Drain - End drain is the strategy of removing 100% of your opponents' endurance and applying a -recovery debuff so they are unable to regain that endurance. By doing this, you remove their ability to counterattack. Some people refer to end drain as "ghetto crowd control." I love that description. I'm not a controller, I don't "hold" mobs, but the effect is the same. They stand there helpless while I beat on them. And, despite what you may have heard to the contrary from Statesman, fighting statues IS damned good fun.
[*]Damage Debuffing - There are two powers in the Kinetics powerset that reduce your opponents' damage output - Siphon Power and Fulcrum Shift. Both of these powers reduce their targets' damage capability by 25% per application. I'll get more into specific strategy using these two powers in a later section, but essentially, with two button clicks you're able to reduce the amount of damage you're taking from all foes by 25%, and the most dangerous foe by 50%, and if the fight runs on long enough, the effects are stackable.
[*]Damage Resistance - Prior to getting your APP (Ancillary Power Pool) in your 40s, your damage resistance is going to come from Tough from the fighting pool, which I highly recommend that you take, altho I wouldn't necessarily slot it. Later in your 40s, you're going to take and 6-slot Temp Invul from the Power Mastery APP (assuming you follow my guide and take that APP). Basically, all this does is reduce the amount of damage that's still coming through after the first two layers of defense.
[*]Healing - Say it with me guys - "We are NOT healers. We are NOT healers..." However, we DO have a heal. Use it. You should be in melee range already, so you're right there in the perfect position to benefit from it. I mention this as the last layer of defense because it's not exactly reliable. No matter how much accuracy you have, this power will still miss 5% of the time. A 5% miss rate may not sound like much, but if Murphy's Laws taught us anything, it's that this power WILL miss when you need it most. Count on it. However, it's a good insurance policy to take care of any damage that you're still taking after the first three layers of defense are in place.[/list]
So, now that I've convinced you that MY way is the RIGHT way and that all these other losers (I'm looking at you, Luchador) are just plain wrong, lets get on to the specifics.
The Powersets, and YOU
As I mentioned previously, I'm not going to go into a whole lot of detail about the powers. I'll just give a rough overview of what the powers do, and follow that with my own recommendations.
Kinetics
<ul type="square">[*]Transfusion - Mob targetted AoE heal centered around the target. Requires a to-hit roll. Most powerful AoE heal in the game (eat your heart out, Empaths).
Quason Sez: Take it, 6 slot it. As I mentioned, this is your fourth layer of defense. I slot 5 Heal, 1 Acc.
[*]Siphon Power - Single target buff/debuff. Subtracts 25% from the target's damage potential and adds 25% to your damage potential, and any allies in an AoE around you.
Quason Sez: Nice to have, but not 100% necessary once you get Fulcrum Shift. Post-FS, this becomes much more useful as a debuff than as a damage buff, since you'll likely be capping your damage with FS anyway. The debuff is VERY useful however, especially on Arch-Villians. I slot 1 acc, 2 recharge.
[*]Repel - Toggled knockback power. Basically, once you toggle it on, it "pulses" every second or two, knocking back any mobs in melee range and taking a pretty sizable chunk of your endurance for each mob it hits.
Quason Sez: No. Oh sweet lord no. Do NOT take this. I mean, honestly... a knockback power in a powerset geared towarded melee range? Who the hell thought this was a good idea, anyway?
[*]Siphon Speed - Single target speed buff/debuff. Decreases target's run speed and attack speed while increasing your own. The attack speed buff is a .2 multiplier (compared to Hasten's .7 multiplier).
Quason Sez: Fantastic power. Simply one of the gems of the powerset. While some people recommend replacing Hasten with this, I don't (I'll get to power pools in a moment). We want our most important powers to be up as quickly as possible, so the added recharge that this gives in addition to Hasten is absolutely indispensible. I slot 1 acc, 2 recharge.
[*]Increase Density - Single target ally buff. Grants mez protection, frees mezed allies, and grants a small damage resistance buff against Smashing and Lethal.
Quason Sez: Meh. I take it, but not until later. Personally, I just don't concider myself that type of defender. Leave the mez protection buffing to the empaths. If you do take this early and make use of it, please for the love of god don't try to keep it up on all your teammates all the time. It only lasts 60 seconds, so if you're going to try to keep it up, you'll be making Increase Density a full time job. Just give it out on demand when someone gets held.
[*]Speed Boost - Single target ally buff. Increases run speed, endurance recovery, and attack speed.
Quason Sez: Blessing and a curse. This is the power people are invite you to their team for most likely, so I mean, you pretty much HAVE to take it. However, after listening to people scream "g1v3 m3h cr4ck!!!11!" for a couple of months, you'll wish this power didn't exist. I slot 2 end recovery, and haven't ran into a situation yet where that wasn't enough.
[*]Inertial Reduction - AoE jump buff. Many kinetics use this as their travel power. Basically grants you and anyone near you the superjump travel power for 60 seconds.
Quason Sez: I hate this freakin power. I mean, I really really hate it. HATE it. Did I mention that I hate it? Cuz like... I do ya know. I hate the fact that I have a travel power in my primary powerset. If I want a travel power, I'll take a travel pool. Give me something USEFUL in my primary powerset. Well, what's done is done... it's here and it's not going away, so if you want it, take it. However, I'm going to recommend later that you take the leaping pool anyway, so you might wanna just skip this. Needless to say, I don't have it.
[*]Transference - Mob targetted endurance drain/recovery power. AoE recovery effect around the target. Drains a HELL of a lot of endurance from the target, especially if you slot right.
Quason Sez: Absolutely crucial to the build, especially for the drain component. Remember, end drain is our primary means of defense. I'll discuss strategy later, but when you're up against a boss, you'll open the fight with this power. Also, PLEASE NOTE: you should NOT be slotting this power for end drain. I'm not sure if it's a bug or by design, but endurance RECOVERY enhancements and endurance DRAIN enhancements both affect the drain component of this power in the exact same way. However, if you slot for recovery instead of drain, you get the added increase in endurance recovery. I slot 1 acc, 2 recovery, 3 recharge.
[*]Fulcrum Shift - Freakin complicated power. Targetted on a single mob. Debuffs the damage of that mob and all mobs in an AoE around it by 25%. Grants a 50% buff to damage centered around you, and a 25% buff to damage centered around each mob affected. Get all that? If not, check out LuchadorFuerte or Ladioss_Sopp's guides. They explain it better than I do.
Quason Sez: Another build essential. Not only does this increase your damage output conciderable, it also provides the basis for that second layer of defense I mentioned - Damage Debuffing. I slot 2 acc, 4 recharge.[/list]