Origin of Statesman's and Lord Recluse's Powers
By
5th_Player,
Posted on: 2005-08-03 18:59 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Hmm... wierd crap... I hate it when they leak stuff slowly. Gets me thinking too much.
Well, Recluse being the Incarnate of Hera might explain the sister comment (ooh he's jealous!!) but then he'd probably be Lord Peacock or something (wasn't that one of Hera's symbols?).
Yes but the spider legs on his back do fan out like a peacock's tail...
Virtue: multiple characters.
CoH/V: Woot! Maybe Fun is to be had once again.
Ack! RUN! Regen is glowing mean & green!
If it reduces you, it's a nerf.
If it buffs the mobs, it's challenge.
They are not the same.
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Well, Recluse being the Incarnate of Hera might explain the sister comment (ooh he's jealous!!) but then he'd probably be Lord Peacock or something (wasn't that one of Hera's symbols?).
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Yep, the peacock was indeed one of her symbols.
And I'm also wondering why the hell people always think Hades was evil. Sure, certain religions depict the lord or the underworld as evil, but Hades was not evil.
Just because Disney makes him evil doesn't mean hes evil....
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rouge isles
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Are we going to have to suffer through this kind of thing here, too. It was bad enough in WoW being called a rouge, but do we really have to do that here?
Rogue != Rouge
rouge = blush or make up of some sort (not too sure, but I know its make up! 
)
"Through Avarice evil smiles; through insanity it sings"
Forum Troll Rule #1: Anyone who disagrees with my point of view is either a fanboy or an idiot.
I'm a proud carebear.
I'm in the, 'Recluse-doesn't-hate-States-because-of-the-god -inside-of-him' camp. Oh course this could mean he'd end up being the incarnate of Hades.
Also, Marcus Cole (Statesman) went East back in 1918 and returned in 1931 all alone. No Stefan Ritcher, no Monicia Ritcher and became a hero. Does this strike anyone as a bit odd. He was gone for 13 years, it didn't take him all that time to find the Well of Furies. I think States, ture to Zues form, slept with Monica. But I don't even think if Recluse was over protective of his sister that that alone could turn him against States. Recluse started out as States ally, I think Recluse might have felt it alittle odd for a close friend to fall in love with his sister, but he probly wouldn't hold that against such a close friend. But, again, true to Zues form, States slept with another women might tip Recluse closer to lopping off States head.
but there is noway that's enough to justify Recluse's anger. No Statesman had to have doen soemthing else. Like someone else pointed out, Stephan Richter is a German name, States fought in World War One. Old grudes don't heal that quickly. Just something to think about.
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Well, Recluse being the Incarnate of Hera might explain the sister comment (ooh he's jealous!!) but then he'd probably be Lord Peacock or something (wasn't that one of Hera's symbols?).
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Ahaha! I hadn't thought of that. Lord Peacock would be a fun villain to fight!
I would just like to say that states got zeus' POWER from the well and not his personalty or spiritual being. If he did then States would be going around sleeping with every woman he came in conact with.
Well if they are staying true to the REAL mythology of the Furies then this could of told us ALOT more then most might realize.
First off, the furies were not WOMEN, this was a particular misconception that was furthered by Bourguereau painting of Orestes. This was simply because first off the idea of man on man or man on beast sexual tension was beyond taboo to the "modern world" but the greeks were often very full of such stories. So in their translations into english they often became Women. I could go on and on about this as greek history is a passion of mine, but no one else here would care. haha.
BUT on to the Furies. In actual myth, The Furies had snakes for hair, gaping wounds dripping blood from where their eyes should be (the were blind as the greeks always believed justice should be) they also had bats' wings and dogs' heads. They were also asexual, thus not being male or female. It was not until justice was met that they became the Eumenides, the kind hearted, gentle female spirits.
How they were created? When Cronus killed Uranus, his blood fell on Gaia and created the Furies. This fallen blood supposedly made a mystic lake/pond, so this is likely what they are using for the idea behind the well of furies.
They also were not all similar, There were three Furies as avenging deities. Their names were Tisiphone (the avenger of murder) <the third yet to be named party in this game, just wait and see>, Megaera (the jealous one)<Recluse seemed mighty jealous, no?>, and Alecto (unceasing in anger)<Statesman anyone?>.
They were persecutors of men and women who committed parricide, killed a sibling (perhaps a SISTER), or murdered a fellow clansman.
Recluse claimed he was betrayed. States seems to have an inner guilt. My synopsis, States was engaged to Monica (stephan's sister) and in choosing his life as a hero, she was killed by an enemy of his. Recluse blames States for his sisters death, and States guilt keeps him fighting evil to make up for it. That part of the story is up for debate, but the background of the actual Furies I think does release a LOT of background information from what I've seen of the characters so far.
Maybe Statesman used to date Recluse's sister. Then he kicked her to the curb. Now Recluse is upset about it and trying to make States pay. Haha
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REAL mythology
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There's no such thing as real mythology. There is no one perfect origin for any myth, which is why there are so many different accounts of a singular even. There are a couple of different accounts of Cronus battling his father, for instance.
In one version, Cronus didn't kill Uranus, he castrated him with a scythe Gaia made for him, which is what he uses in his second incarnation as Chronos. The blood created the Nymphs and Furies and his genitals created Aphrodite (in various alternate myths about her creation). And the Furies are most commonly portrayed as women because of the common theme in all mythology of the "powerful female trinity" seen in the Moirae of Greek mythology, the Manant of Arabian mythology, and the three aspects of Brigid in Celtic mythology. The Greeks empowered females in their mythology with a role higher than just fertility and love. They were in charge of Fate and Justice.
I like this convo
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There's no such thing as real mythology. There is no one perfect origin for any myth, which is why there are so many different accounts of a singular even. There are a couple of different accounts of Cronus battling his father, for instance.
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This is correct and incorrect in the same statement. By real mythology I meant the earliest known account found in writing, over time those legends were found rewritten and likely reconstructed, but the greeks as a whole kept things very accurate even over generations of time as it was considered an honor to hold onto such stories. It wasn't really until the translators came into play and such stories started getting re-written in latin and then eventually french and then English that the biggest confusions came and seperate "takes" on stories started.
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In one version, Cronus didn't kill Uranus, he castrated him with a scythe Gaia made for him, which is what he uses in his second incarnation as Chronos. The blood created the Nymphs and Furies and his genitals created Aphrodite (in various alternate myths about her creation).
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Actually this was a different story altogether, and doesn't negate the other story. It is a prior event altogether and that story is slightly different.
Uranus was aghast by the sight of his offspring, the Cyclopes and the Hecatoncheires and was frightened of their great strength and power and feared for his own life so he hid them away in Tartarus (the bowels of the earth) inside Gaia, causing her intense pain. The discomfort became so great that she asked her youngest son, Cronus, to castrate his father, as this would cease his fertility and put an end to more monstrous offspring. To accomplish this deed Gaia made an adamantine sickle, which she gave to Cronus. That night Uranus came to lay with Gaia. And as the sky god drew close, Cronus struck with the sickle and cut off Uranus's genitals. From the blood that fell from the open wound were born the Giants and the Meliae (Nymphs of the manna ash trees)then when Cronus threw the severed genitals into the sea a white foam appeared. From this foam Aphrodite the goddess of love and desire was born.
It was after this that he used the sickle to then stab into the chest of the angered Uranus, and let loose the fatal blood across the Gaia. The blood which fell from the blow gave birth to the Erinyes (Furies), at which point Cronus realized what he had done and threw the sickle into the sea and the island of Corfu, home of the Phaeacians, sprang up.
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And the Furies are most commonly portrayed as women because of the common theme in all mythology of the "powerful female trinity" seen in the Moirae of Greek mythology, the Manant of Arabian mythology, and the three aspects of Brigid in Celtic mythology. The Greeks empowered females in their mythology with a role higher than just fertility and love. They were in charge of Fate and Justice.
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Again, this isn't quite correct. The greeks did empower women indeed, but it had nothing to do with celtic myths it moreso had to do with early christian delegations against certain ideas in writing. One of the main ones being transformation after death into another creature which was this case. The other two being that Furies became the embodiement of a female roman god, and that the Erinyes became the Eumenides after justice was seen in the world and they shed their monster shells.
The Erinyes, or the Furies, were the asexual horrid monster creatures I mentioned before created due to the horrible in family murders and betrayal and they woud stay this way till justice was served in the world, which would only further fuel their anger and rage.
The legend is that the Furies roamed the earth dealing out justice among the earth and at one point came into a relentless pursuit of the Theban prince Orestes for the murder of his mother, Queen Clytemnestra. Orestes had been told by Apollo to find the killer of his father, King Agamemnon, whom Clytemnestra had murdered. The Furies, heedless of his motives, tormented him until Orestes pleaded to Athena, who persuaded the avenging goddesses accept Orestes' plea that he had been cleansed of his guilt. When they were thus to show mercy, their outer creature died and they clawed themselves out from the belly of the beasts and went from being the Furies of frightful appearance into the Eumenides, meaning "kind-hearted", the three beautiful woman.
You most often see this misconception in ways like them showing the women to have snakes for hair or fur and wings in a more female form, as opposed to the more accurate interpretation.
Again, not trying to nitpick but I am a huge follower of greek history and mythology, so I sort of feel the need to clean up misconceptions.
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Uranus was aghast by the sight of his offspring, the Cyclopes and the Hecatoncheires and was frightened of their great strength and power and feared for his own life so he hid them away in Tartarus (the bowels of the earth) inside Gaia, causing her intense pain. The discomfort became so great that she asked her youngest son, Cronus, to castrate his father, as this would cease his fertility and put an end to more monstrous offspring. To accomplish this deed Gaia made an adamantine sickle, which she gave to Cronus. That night Uranus came to lay with Gaia. And as the sky god drew close, Cronus struck with the sickle and cut off Uranus's genitals. From the blood that fell from the open wound were born the Giants and the Meliae (Nymphs of the manna ash trees)then when Cronus threw the severed genitals into the sea a white foam appeared. From this foam Aphrodite the goddess of love and desire was born.
It was after this that he used the sickle to then stab into the chest of the angered Uranus, and let loose the fatal blood across the Gaia. The blood which fell from the blow gave birth to the Erinyes (Furies), at which point Cronus realized what he had done and threw the sickle into the sea and the island of Corfu, home of the Phaeacians, sprang up.
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Oh! I see what you're doing! 
http://www.pantheon.org/articles/u/uranus.html
See, I love mythology, and I'll admit that Pantheon is a great site to look around, but taking stuff directly from them and reconstituting it with the expression...
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Again, not trying to nitpick but I am a huge follower of greek history and mythology, so I sort of feel the need to clean up misconceptions.
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...is ridiculous and harmful to your reputation as a "mythology buff". Anyone who knows anything about mythology understands that the origin of any mythology that has roots before the birth of Christ and the establishment of the Roman Catholic Church can't be traced back to its original, unperverted source. The mere fact that you claim that the Furies were most definitely without a reasonable doubt males shows that you not only cannot take mythology at face value, but don't truly appreciate it if you're attempting to twist it into some kind of truth to seem more knowledgable on the matter.
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And the Furies are most commonly portrayed as women because of the common theme in all mythology of the "powerful female trinity" seen in the Moirae of Greek mythology, the Manant of Arabian mythology, and the three aspects of Brigid in Celtic mythology. The Greeks empowered females in their mythology with a role higher than just fertility and love. They were in charge of Fate and Justice.
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Again, this isn't quite correct. The greeks did empower women indeed, but it had nothing to do with celtic myths it moreso had to do with early christian delegations against certain ideas in writing.
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I didn't say that anything in Greek mythology had anything to do with Celtic mythology, but I was pointing out how many mythologies empower a trinity of women or goddesses such at the Furies and Fates. It's a common theme, just like the World Tree and the magical well that you can easily find in any Euro-Asian mythology.
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The legend is that the Furies roamed the earth dealing out justice among the earth and at one point came into a relentless pursuit of the Theban prince Orestes for the murder of his mother, Queen Clytemnestra. Orestes had been told by Apollo to find the killer of his father, King Agamemnon, whom Clytemnestra had murdered. The Furies, heedless of his motives, tormented him until Orestes pleaded to Athena, who persuaded the avenging goddesses accept Orestes' plea that he had been cleansed of his guilt. When they were thus to show mercy, their outer creature died and they clawed themselves out from the belly of the beasts and went from being the Furies of frightful appearance into the Eumenides, meaning "kind-hearted", the three beautiful woman.
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Ah, see, ya' did it again. Took me a minute to pinpoint exactly where I'd seen that paragraph before, but being interested in all mythologies I've been reading Pantheon for years.
http://www.pantheon.org/articles/a/alecto.html
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No, I think that charging it as the Well of the Furies pretty much denies all but Greek mythology. It being guarded by a Gorgon only further cements the idea that the well is Greek in mythos, and not an omni-mythological source of power. At least, probably not.
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Ah, dear fellow, now here's the neat thing that a professionally-trained mythographer (anyone know of a professionally-trained mythographer who also does game design--Joe, John, Jack--Jack somethingorother, right?) might do if it amuses him. The Indo-European stratum makes up a great deal of the source material of Greek mythology. Now, one magico-mythical interpretation of variation among Indo-European cultures' mythologies is that an eidos, or its functional equivalent, is given specific expression within each culture. This "Campbellianist" interpretation would say that the Well of the Furies is the Urth's Well is Brigid's Cauldron, etc. However, steeped as they might have been in a bias towards Classicism, Statesman and Recluse "discovered" a specifically Greco-Roman "emanation" of the root eidos
Of course, that's the Campbellian interpretation, it's not the only possible way of looking at myth.
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Uranus not heaven the dudes name was Uranus
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"Ouranos" is an ancient Greek word that means "Heaven" or "heavens".
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And no one likes Norse mythology they where vikings, vikings!!!
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I seem to recognize English words, but the sentence as a whole is incomprehensible.
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Hmmm, we could pick Stefan apart as well while we're at it. Historically, the kings of Poland used that name a lot (well, Stepan if I transcribed that properly).
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In addition, Slavic and Magyar lands that traditionally attached to the Habsburg Imperial dynasty did so through the "Crown of St. Stephen".
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Ah, dear fellow, now here's the neat thing that a professionally-trained mythographer (anyone know of a professionally-trained mythographer who also does game design--Joe, John, Jack--Jack somethingorother, right?) might do if it amuses him. The Indo-European stratum makes up a great deal of the source material of Greek mythology. Now, one magico-mythical interpretation of variation among Indo-European cultures' mythologies is that an eidos, or its functional equivalent, is given specific expression within each culture. This "Campbellianist" interpretation would say that the Well of the Furies is the Urth's Well is Brigid's Cauldron, etc. However, steeped as they might have been in a bias towards Classicism, Statesman and Recluse "discovered" a specifically Greco-Roman "emanation" of the root eidos
Of course, that's the Campbellian interpretation, it's not the only possible way of looking at myth.
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Yeah, that's how a lot of us were looking at it before, Dog. At least, many of us were hoping Incarnate would be multi-cultural incarnations of deities. But there's so much Greek mythology rooted around it now (Zeus' power, Well of the Furies, guarded by Stheno) that I'm gonna' have to go with it being Greek in origin.
Why's it's on an island of the coast of Paragon City, I have no idea...
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I'm in the, 'Recluse-doesn't-hate-States-because-of-the-god -inside-of-him' camp. Oh course this could mean he'd end up being the incarnate of Hades.
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Please to explaining the "of course"?
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Also, Marcus Cole (Statesman) went East back in 1918 and returned in 1931 all alone. No Stefan Ritcher, no Monicia Ritcher and became a hero. Does this strike anyone as a bit odd.
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Odd as in a "he dumped them to die on a mountaintop and pretend he never did anything wrong" kind of odd?
"We gonna die like English Patient's girlfriend--long, agonizing, boring death!"
Jackie boy,
If you read carefully you'll notice I even corrected some of what pantheon wrote. Secondly it is more for saving time in the long drawn out nature of re-writing things than anything else. Pantheon is not a end all, meet all but it is checked and edited by historians as new updates are given.
Two other quick points though:
1) to state that nothing prior to roman catholic institution of their own myths as facts with the creation of AD/BC can be factually traced back is absolutely false. Known texts can be traced as far back as the sumerians, the first known civilization known to exist thousands of years before christ
2) I never stated the furies were male, I stated they were asexual or sexless. That it wasn't until a later time when the female spirit inside of that beast came out.
And I won't sit here and state that what I am saying is absolute just that what I am writing is the most widely accepted version of the stories, without a time machine no one will ever know an absolute to the past.
One last time, you can't correct mythology. Stop trying to do it. You don't have any more credibility than a web site that's been around for a decade.
And before this goes any further, we were having a pretty decent conversation about mythology here. I know you probably didn't mean to, but you most likely couldn't help it; "correcting" people on their interpretations of mythology hasn't done much to garner yourself some respect as a buff in any way. Like I said, you probably didn't mean to do it, but in doing so I've lost the ability to take you seriously in this conversation. Copying and pasting paragraphs from Pantheon also didn't help. I'm sorry, "Darkie Boy".
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2) I never stated the furies were male, I stated they were asexual or sexless. That it wasn't until a later time when the female spirit inside of that beast came out.
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Now, was this part of the "original" version of these beings or was it a lator revalorization? What is your source for your conclusion? Note that by "later" I do not mean "added by Christians". Contrary to your claims, myths DID change LONG BEFORE Christianity came onto the scene. Look at the evolution of Egyptian thought over the millenia.
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Now, was this part of the "original" version of these beings or was it a lator revalorization? What is your source for your conclusion? Note that by "later" I do not mean "added by Christians". Contrary to your claims, myths DID change LONG BEFORE Christianity came onto the scene. Look at the evolution of Egyptian thought over the millenia.
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no, no, I meant later as in later in time. there's no real idea of how much time supposedly passed between when the titans existed and when mankind started to form and flourish and when the legend of the thetan prince occured. Could of been 20 years, could of been 20,000 years. The change to female happened once Athena convinced them to have mercy thus changing their being.
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Look at the evolution of Egyptian thought over the millenia.
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And coincidentally, a lot of that lay on the Greeks.
No offense taken Jack, whether you take me seriously or not doesn't affect me much. I never stated my belief or interpretation as golden, just what I am under the belief is the most widely accepted as opposed to one of the later adapted fringe translations. If you believe you can't "correct" mythology then you should tell the vatican theologians they are out of a job, as their existence is purely to read and re-read translations to determine accurate translations and then make alterations to such, thus determining Vatican Law. It's very similar to what our Congress does in fact by trying to determine what was intended and what was not purely upon speculation, in the constitution a document written by people they have never met or known. Or perhaps the scientists who still debate over theories of gravity and Evolution and things even far more widely accepted. These are non-absolutes that are "corrected" and "restated" even though they have no tangible proof of reality to be based upon in the first place. So the idea that one cannot correct something in incorrect, because to do so is our very human nature, especially that of an analytical or logical mind.
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Can SOMEONE please explain to me this knee-jerk "Recluse is Hades" response? Please, can SOMEONE point out where in the mythological source material Hades is depicted as the implacable foe of Zeus? What is that source of this gross error?
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Yeah, I'd be very disappointed if Recluse turned out to be the incarnate of Hades. Hades, aside from abducting Persephone, was not evil. It'd be mistakenly cliche for them to make Recluse be Hades, and judging by Jack's knowledge of the classics, that's likely not the case. Us classics folks get annoyed when people assume Hades/Pluto was evil just because the Christian Satan is.
As twisted as it might be, I'd love for Recluse to be an incarnate of Hera. She was such a [censored] in the Aenied (well, Juno was, but they're basically the same person.) I wouldn't mind smacking her around! And then, when people said, "That Statesman and Recluse fight like an old married couple!" they'd technically be right!