Blaster Damage


50_Caliber

 

Posted

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Let's try and be a little more accurate with this statement. Using the BI as any accurate indication of what goes on in battles can only be justified by a biased attempt to misrepresent the truth.


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In other words stop clouding the issues with facts so you can live in a fantasy world where everything you get to believe anything you want.

Making the appeal that “the facts don’t mean anything” is the last resort of an argument badly lost.

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So you're saying the for the last 7 or so levels of the game, it's outrageous that some controllers, if they they choose the right powers, can equal blaster damage? I hardly find that a compelling argument.


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It is outrageous for controllers to equal blasters at blasting no matter what the level.

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Increasing your damage won't do it. I can already kill all the mobs quickly.


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So your early rant about damage types was just so much BS?


 

Posted

If the Scrapper cap is higher than the Blaster's cap because they have to be in melee to use their powers, how come Blaster's melee powers still have the same 400% cap?

Also, if this is true for Blasters, I assume that the same is true for Scrappers. With APP's, Scrappers can use ranged attacks that do the same damage as Blaster's ranged attacks, but do more damage since they have a 500% cap.

That.

Is.

Stupid.


 

Posted

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The fact is I've studied the damage outputs on my teams for the last few weeks. I'm HIGHLY disappointed by what I see.

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This is largely perception, I think. I've felt on teams with blasters that my scrapper's damage output is moderate in comparison to their extreme (especially when they're using nova/inferno/etc every second or third fight).

As for your first shot with build up and all those enrages, which attack was it? I mean, it could just as easily be Power Bolt (BI = 11.1112 at the cap) vs. Katana's Golden Dragonfly (with five damage enhancements, BI = 16.846578). While your anecdote would be literally true, it would be misleading as you're comparing a tier 1 attack to a tier 9 attack.

On the other hand, if you used Power Blast, you'd be dealing a BI of 18.2224, which is clearly superior to Golden Dragonfly's damage. That's energy blast's tier 2 power. Now, if the Golden Dragonfly is buffed further, or crits, it'll still outdamage your tier 2 attack, but...your example doesn't have enough information to really judge whether it's meaningful.


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Posted

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If the Scrapper cap is higher than the Blaster's cap because they have to be in melee to use their powers, how come Blaster's melee powers still have the same 400% cap?

Also, if this is true for Blasters, I assume that the same is true for Scrappers. With APP's, Scrappers can use ranged attacks that do the same damage as Blaster's ranged attacks, but do more damage since they have a 500% cap.

That.

Is.

Stupid.

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Obviously, the simple solution is to give blasters a 500% damage cap.

Do you want a solution, or do you want to complain about how unfair it is that scrappers killed your puppy with laser beam eyes?


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Posted

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Obviously, the simple solution is to give blasters a 500% damage cap.

Do you want a solution, or do you want to complain about how unfair it is that scrappers killed your puppy with laser beam eyes?

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Duskking can't just give us the 500% damage cap himself, he's stating his argument, don't belittle him for not being able to do more then complain.


 

Posted

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Obviously, the simple solution is to give blasters a 500% damage cap.

Do you want a solution, or do you want to complain about how unfair it is that scrappers killed your puppy with laser beam eyes?

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Duskking can't just give us the 500% damage cap himself, he's stating his argument, don't belittle him for not being able to do more then complain.

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Well, it's not so much the complaint (which is valid), but that it was everywhere last night.


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Posted

Sorry, I may have been a little over-enthusiastic last night, it's just that I was furious that a Scrapper was making me literally worthless in my team. Whenever I tried to attack something, it was dead before my attack hit it.

Except for Nightstar, who just one-shotted me :P


 

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HO's, Aim, Assault, and (Almost all) Defender powers will raise your damage from 400%......to 400%.


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My point is that the vast majority of blasters will never reach that damage cap, let alone have any real reason to need to exceed it, so why make such a huge deal about it?

You have one ENE secondary, one uncommonly taken pool power, something you only get at level 47+, and a conditional teammate that can actually put you over the cap as it's been set. Explain to me how this helps those blasters who have anything other than ENE secondary, aren't interested in the Leadership pool, are too low a level to raid Hammi, and won't have a defender nearby with Siphon Power/Accelerate Metabolism/Fortitide. In a nutshell, you have six whole rare conditional events that could possibly get you above that cap, and that's assuming you already have all your attacks six-slotted with damage, yet a lot of people are taking this as the end-all, be-all of blaster damage solutions. It isn't. It would benefit a very small minority of situations.


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Uhm...

I have no idea what you are referring to. Aim is in every blaster primary except AR. The energy secondary has build up, something every blaster secondary except devices has. Even blasters that don't have Build up and Aim know how easy it is to reach the blaster cap.

Blasters are generally 6-slotting their attacks, and the most common slotting is 5 damage, 1 accuracy. Lets assume that all those slots are white enhancements. Thats 266% of base damage. Build Up is 366%, and Aim would be 426%, which is over the cap.

Only AR doesn't have Aim, and only devices doesn't have build up, so of the 5x5=25 types of blasters, 4x4=16 of them, or 64% can run into the cap all by themselves.

A devices blaster with targetting drone might not need to slot accuracy. Any */dev that is not AR/Dev (4 of them) has Aim in the primary, and can get to 360% of base with 6 damage slotting. That's white enhancements. Its 370% with +1 enhancements, 380% with +2 enhancements, and 390% with +3 enhancements. Assuming that the blaster only reslots at the "7s" and "2s" then 40% of the time, the blaster will be at 380% or better - which is one damage buff away from the cap. Any kinetics, radiation, or empathy defender or controller can give you damage buff that would run you into the cap.

An AR/* (not dev) blaster has access to build up, and thus they start with 5+1 slotting, 266%, and then add build up to get to 366%. Again, that is with white enhancements. 40% of the time, those enhancements will be +2 and +3 (382%, 391%) and just as close to the damage cap as the */dev blasters.

So 16 of 25 blasters (64%) can hit the cap all by themselves, and 24 of 25 blasters (96%) cannot benefit greatly from team buffs at least some, if not all, of the time.

"My point is that the vast majority of blasters will never reach that damage cap."

In fact, the vast majority of blasters will be capped by the blaster cap a significant amount of time. Or more to the point, they will have to juggle to avoid it if they can.

Its actually difficult for blasters to avoid the cap. I haven't even mentioned inspirations yet.

It still amazes me that the blaster cap is completely misunderstood. It does not reduce net damage output over time, except in teaming situations with a lot of buffage. What it does is cap burst damage, and that is nasty for blasters. Without defense, blasters have to fight fast - there is no long-term blaster fights. The cap doesn't lower our damage output to be lower than scrappers, because it doesn't lower our damage output at all. It forces us to deal damage over a longer period of time, and time is the blaster enemy. Simple algebra proves this.


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Anyway, back to the original point. Yes, the damage cap is there. So what? Until the majority of situations make that cap an actual inhibition to anyone outside of a few more vocal 50-level folks with too many Hammi raids under their belts, I'm not too concerned about it. If we get a boost to our damage ability in anything more than a rare coincedence, then yeah, I'd be a lot more supportive of the argument.

Who's for Blaster Build-up getting 200%!

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It is precisely because I favor a scalable build up that I favor increasing the blaster damage cap. Without an increase in the blaster cap, there is absolutely no benefit to a scalable build up at all. Of what possible benefit could there be for blasters to get a 200% build up, if only the first 100% will actually do anything?


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Posted

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Sorry, I may have been a little over-enthusiastic last night, it's just that I was furious that a Scrapper was making me literally worthless in my team. Whenever I tried to attack something, it was dead before my attack hit it.

Except for Nightstar, who just one-shotted me :P

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I know your pain, although for me, it was as a scrapper, the blasters would get the kills, and I'd spend endurance on corpses.

I guess to whom it happens depends primarily on level - I got it a lot up to 30, not so much afterward.


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Posted

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How do you make me feel like having a blaster is nearly essential when I form a TF? Increasing your damage won't do it. I can already kill all the mobs quickly.


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This is both trivially easy, and never going to be implemented.

Change the AI so the villains are not stupid enough to stand next to scrappers and tanks while getting killed.

"Making range a defense" is a solo-blaster issue, mainly. Making range an offense is a team issue - do you need something that can kill at range or not.

Although there are advantages to blasters having range, in the sense of comparing the situation to blasters not having range, it is much less of an advantage when compared to scrappers and tanks not having range, because not only are villains not running out of melee range, they are often doing scrappers and tanks a favor by running into melee range saving scrappers and tanks the trouble of running around much.

This is especially true in teams, where the alternative to chasing a runner is to simply switch targets; the first 70%-80% of villains can generally be killed without chasing anything - even if villains run they often come back.

The twist to blasters is that when your team doesn't have a good tank around, scrappers can stay alive much better than blasters can, on average (great blasters always look better than stupid scrappers, but good scrappers tend to do better than good blasters). But when your team does have a good tank, the tank not only draws aggro, helping blasters, but also puts the villains into a nice pile, nullifying any scrapper range disadvantage a blaster might have looked better against.


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Posted

Great_Scott: You've got a math mistake.

From the Brawl Index thread [and from my own experience] Whirling Sword is 2.777 + (3* .277) . Note the decimal points: that's 3.6 total, not 11.1 .

Whirling Sword is probably more like M30- I don't know, I never got an assault blaster past level 6 or something. It's fairly comparable to Fire Ball, except for covering about 1/4 the area.

I'm only arguing specific facts here; I agree that "Blasters need help" but I will never agree that "Scrappers outdamage Blasters" because. . . we don't.


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Posted

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I know your pain, although for me, it was as a scrapper, the blasters would get the kills, and I'd spend endurance on corpses.

I guess to whom it happens depends primarily on level - I got it a lot up to 30, not so much afterward.


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What scrappers missed then and some blasters miss now is that no every damage dealer will feel this way with lots of other damage dealers around. Double the number of damage dealers on the team and you cut the individual contribution of each in half. That’s just the way it is. Since the fights are already short this is bound to be perceived as competition rather then support. Play your eng blaster with a fire controller and you will feel the exact same thing.


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From the Brawl Index thread [and from my own experience] Whirling Sword is 2.777 + (3* .277) . Note the decimal points: that's 3.6 total, not 11.1 .

Whirling Sword is probably more like M30- I don't know, I never got an assault blaster past level 6 or something. It's fairly comparable to Fire Ball, except for covering about 1/4 the area.


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That’s a lot more the M30 or Explosive blast which are basically the same attack. It’s also still quite a bit more then fireball, which has the same 2.5 base damage as EB and M30. Fire ball does an average of 0.7 worth of DoT of course, but it isn’t really the damage attack for fire blasters, fire breath does most of the damage, fire ball is just enough to put them over the top and get the kill on the follow up attack.

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I'm only arguing specific facts here; I agree that "Blasters need help" but I will never agree that "Scrappers outdamage Blasters" because. . . we don't.


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Unless blasters give up attacking from range scrappers have the same base damage, same formula for balancing attacks, more usable attacks, critical hits and higher damage caps add up to more damage. As long as blasters play as blasters scrappers are clearly the higher damage AT.


 

Posted

While I could say things like "Fire Breath does 4.8 Brawls Cone AoE? Yow!" and otherwise argue details, I'm going to give the short version of my speech- you've heard it before, see my sig .

Blah blah Aim AND Buildup beats Buildup. Blah blah four times the Area Effected. Blah blah regular application of nukes.

Blah blah ability to hit same guys with Cone and Sphere AoEs.

Blah blah Blasters end up doing more damage for the same Brawl Index.

Blah.


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Posted

Good point, I might have screwed up....

(2.777+(.9256*5)) + (3*(.277+(.09256*5))) = (2.777+4.628) + (3*(.277+.4628)) = 7.405 + (3*.7398) = 7.405 + 2.2194 = 9.2644

I did, sorry about that. Whirling Sword only does ~9.2 brawls.
I must have screwed something up there.

My point, however, still stands: Scrapper damage is not on par with Blaster survivability...


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Posted

....so many ideas on this thread....Well, I guess I'll start here: 1)remove rooting. This is perhaps the single point I agree with most, since watching a baddie, whom you are urrently blasting for dmg no less, get CLOSER is nuts. Range to match baddies would definitely be nice, after all, it is rather hard to be king of damage when you have to waste slots on range. As for melee...I'm not TOTALLY against it, but I shouldn't find myslef there in every fight that involves more than one minion (*NB: this includes team fights*). My primary experience is an Energy Blaster, so understand that's where my somewhat jaded view comes from...but if you have Hasten (*or better still, perma haste*), you CAN cycle through your ranged powers without needing to go into your melee to keep constant attacks up. On the same note, if a badguy gets too close, you can cycle through a melee cycle to take him out. This DOES only apply to one, at most two, close enemies. As I selected my powers, I knew I'd end up in melee and just had to deal with it. So the first thing after my ranged cycle (and of course, Hasten) was to pick up the punches. Engergy perhaps has an advantage in this category with Disorient and KB, but KOing close baddies certainly removes the trouble of needing them. I have fiddled with the other sets too, but can't speack for high lvls, yet it seems that "no rooting" plus "match villain ranges" and dishing out enough with ranged to make it worth it to avoid melee solves most of the Blaster issues right there. I'd love to see a long range snipe not always make the enemy know you're there effect happen too, becuase let's face it: sniped heroes DON"T know most of the time. If I have to spend as much as seven precious seconds LOOKING for the baddie, nm closing to range, so should the baddies I snipe!! Anyway, I've been able to enjoy the game with the powers available, tho tweaks to how they work would let a Blaster live up to his/her name. After all, a Blaster who can't BLAST is like a Toaster that doesn't toast: they get replaced. Tanks TANK, Scrappers SCRAP, Defenders DEFEND, and Controllers CONTROL. Granted, this requires smart building, but when even the best built Blaster can't BLAST, there is a disparity between him/her and his/her fellow heroes. Minor changes make the fix, so just implement them!


 

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While I could say things like "Fire Breath does 4.8 Brawls Cone AoE? Yow!" and otherwise argue details, I'm going to give the short version of my speech- you've heard it before, see my sig .

Blah blah Aim AND Buildup beats Buildup. Blah blah four times the Area Effected. Blah blah regular application of nukes.

Blah blah ability to hit same guys with Cone and Sphere AoEs.

Blah blah Blasters end up doing more damage for the same Brawl Index.

Blah.

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In other words you have nothing. Every feeble argument you have tried to present has been shoot down leaving only the obvious conclusion that you are spewing propaganda in an attempt to maintain the status quo since that so heavily favors scrappers and you thing that as a scrapper you deserve special consideration even if you can’t justify it.

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1)remove rooting. This is perhaps the single point I agree with most


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This is a bad idea. The only thing this would do is allow kiting of mobs that have shorter range then blasters. Kiting isn’t what blasters should be looking for. It isn’t fun it isn’t strategic, and it’s barely more then a exploit. The devs tried to keep kiting out of the game for a reason and I would not want to see them deliberately introduce it now.


 

Posted

G_S: Where are you getting those numbers?

Whirling Sword is listed in the Brawl Index like this:
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Whirling Sword - 2.7778 Lethal + 0.2778 Lethal * 3


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That is to say, 2.7778 on the first shot and three .2778's. So about 3.6 total.

This roughly matches with my experience: it's like hitting someone with Slash, plus a little bleed-over-time damage.

If your numbers for Whirling Sword were correct, I would be able to jump into a batch of yellow minions, hit Build Up/Whirling Sword, and they'd go down. I can't do that.

If your numbers for Whirling Sword were correct, it would do more damage in a larger area than Headsplitter, and I'd get it at level 18.

I already agreed with your basic point, I just don't want to come back in a week and find out that "Broadsword Scrappers outdamage the AR nuke with their level 18 power" has become a locked-in error, like "Blaster Tough is 10%" did.


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That is to say, 2.7778 on the first shot and three .2778's. So about 3.6 total

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I get it now! I was using 5-damage slotting, you weren't. I didn't understand that you were talking about base damage. Sorry.

Sure, 3.6 times 3 is in the 10-11 brawl range...it's two ways of looking at the same number.


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1)remove rooting. This is perhaps the single point I agree with most


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This is a bad idea. The only thing this would do is allow kiting of mobs that have shorter range then blasters. Kiting isn’t what blasters should be looking for. It isn’t fun it isn’t strategic, and it’s barely more then a exploit. The devs tried to keep kiting out of the game for a reason and I would not want to see them deliberately introduce it now.

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Perhaps, but actually, removing the roots would only affect kiting in the very tight range of situations where the blaster outranges the villain(s), but only by a very small amount. We can't kite if they outrange us, the extra maneuverability we would get by not being rooted would be much more tactical and fair under those circumstances (it would be used to stay out of melee range, for example, but we'd still be in ranged-range). When we significantly outrange the foes, we can kite with or without roots (hover-sniping is really a lazy alternative to kiting; almost anything that can be hover-sniped can be kited).

In fact, there are very few "tactical" options available to blasters that aren't, in fact, actual "glitches" in the game engine. There are two ways to look at that. One is to say that things like pulling around corners or jump-shots, are unintended by the game engine, and defacto exploits. But an alternative point of view that I tend to subscribe to is that if blasters are intended to actually *have* and *use* tactical options, to make up for their gasoline-soaked gauze-like defenses, then the important issue is whether such options exist, and are they relatively reasonable for blasters to have, completely separate from whether they were originally intended by the game engine.

All the different LoS-breaking tricks used by blasters for pulling, or just plain shooting, are a form of damage mitigation. If its considered cheating to use them, and blasters aren't supposed to have actual defenses or resistances, then we are really left with saying the game is designed for blasters to get killed, and if blasters aren't getting killed, something is wrong, which to my mind is insane.

I think what elevates something to an exploit is when the net consequences are out of bounds with what we want or expect (in this case) blasters to have.

I used to kite trolls in Skyway. Took forever to kill them. Was that an exploit, because I did it "risk free?" If it was, why, why, why do range enhancements exist in the game? Because range means diddly squat to both accuracy and damage, the only purpose to slotting for range is to be out of range of the villains - to shoot at them risk free. To my way of thinking, its a fair trade - less risk (zero risk, in fact) for slower kill speed (damage goes down). But if all actions that allow people to kill with low or zero risk are "exploits" then range enhancers and boost range (the power), among other things, are exploits. 5 lucks gives a better net benefit than kiting, so if kiting is an exploit, perhaps hunting around contacts is a form of exploit as well. It could be fixed by capping the number if inspirations you can buy per hour, say. But do we want to actually do that? And if we don't, what does that say about kiting, hover-sniping, corner-pulling, etc. What does it say about allowing blasters to maneuver while firing?

Because it seems odd to me to say "if you want to be virtually unhittable and unkillable for 30 to 60 seconds, while standing perfectly immobile and shooting at things, thats fine, but if you want to run around, jump around, maneuver all over the place, and be significantly less unhittable and unkillable while doing that, that is unacceptable."


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Posted

[ QUOTE ]
All the different LoS-breaking tricks used by blasters for pulling, or just plain shooting, are a form of damage mitigation. If its considered cheating to use them, and blasters aren't supposed to have actual defenses or resistances, then we are really left with saying the game is designed for blasters to get killed, and if blasters aren't getting killed, something is wrong, which to my mind is insane.


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My impression was that Blasters are intended to kill all of the Mobs in a spawn before they can return fire.

So, yes, if offense = defense, then ducking around a corner is an exploit.

There isn't ever intended to be any survivors from a high-level single target blast, or lower level attack chain.

That's how I imagine that this game was originally balanced. Now that mobs have gotten tougher, and more levels exist than when the game was released, this is no longer the case.

Basically, what I'm saying is that the exploits aren't being fixed because they are acting as a band-aid to the solo Blaster game.


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Posted

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Moridin: People like you are why I have my sig.

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I find it rather amusing that you put something like that in your sig because you yourself are determined to believe what you want to believe no mater what the evidence says. Perhaps you even manage to convince yourself that it’s other people that are believing the flaw lies in other people beliefs and not your own or perhaps you truly believe you can’t make educated conclusions about anything by examining the facts, but either way I find is amusing to see you put it in your own sig not realizing you are really talking about yourself.


 

Posted

How many times, Moridin, did I say "Blasters need help" in THIS thread, in the last 24 hours?

Are you blind? Are you a bot?

I have demonstrated to my own satisfaction that TWICE the damage, with the same level of defenses, wouldn't bring Blasters to parity.

Do you want to have an argument with me, or do you want to go back to inventing arguments you can win?


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Posted

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In fact, there are very few "tactical" options available to blasters that aren't, in fact, actual "glitches" in the game engine. There are two ways to look at that. One is to say that things like pulling around corners or jump-shots, are unintended by the game engine, and defacto exploits.


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I’m not sure what you are trying to get at here, are you really suggesting that because other borderline exploits of game mechanics exist that other should be created?
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But an alternative point of view that I tend to subscribe to is that if blasters are intended to actually *have* and *use* tactical options, to make up for their gasoline-soaked gauze-like defenses,


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While blasters certainly do use these types of techniques for just that reason, I find it highly likely that it’s intended. More likely is that it just doesn’t create and imbalance so the devs feel no need to remove it, but that doesn’t mean it will not go the way of the exit mission for health bug if it ever makes the radar.
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I used to kite trolls in Skyway. Took forever to kill them. Was that an exploit, because I did it "risk free?" If it was, why, why, why do range enhancements exist in the game?


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The game mechanics seem pretty clearly designed to prevent kiting, so whatever the dev justification is for range enhancements kiting almost certainly isn’t it. If I had to speculate I would think that there was an unformed belief that if range had value, greater range had greater value, even though they were already working to prevent the very thing that made range so valuable in earlier games, but again I’m not in a position to do more then speculate since I can’t read minds.

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Because it seems odd to me to say "if you want to be virtually unhittable and unkillable for 30 to 60 seconds, while standing perfectly immobile and shooting at things, thats fine, but if you want to run around, jump around, maneuver all over the place, and be significantly less unhittable and unkillable while doing that, that is unacceptable."


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The problem with your logic is the situations where you could sit beyond a mobs range and attack it with impunity have been systematically removed from the game, so the devs are not in fact saying “if you want to be virtually unhittable and unkillable for 30 to 60 seconds, while standing perfectly immobile and shooting at things, thats fine” In fact they are saying just the opposite and the fact that they have not bothered to remove a handful of unprofitable cases doesn’t change this.

All that aside, do you really think kiting is a good or fun thing to have in this game? Do you really want to see blaster play devolve into running away from something for 5 min while you fir an occasional shot and eventually bring t down? Would this really be fun to you?


 

Posted

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All that aside, do you really think kiting is a good or fun thing to have in this game? Do you really want to see blaster play devolve into running away from something for 5 min while you fir an occasional shot and eventually bring t down? Would this really be fun to you?

[/ QUOTE ]

What is the alternative to kiting? One-shotting mobs? Is the entire concept of a "Blaster" broken?


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