Weight Classes / Does Arena PvP start at 15?
By
Abalest,
Posted on: 2005-03-01 21:33 in Badges and Gladiators
seeing as there's an arena in Galaxy City, I think they expect 7's and under to participate.
so your first class is 1-5. then 6-10, 11-15, 16-20 and so on.
you have a good point about 21s vs 22s. but maybe the cap is such that the 21-25 class is capped at DO level. After all, most 22's should not have SOs everywhere. Why should people have an edge because of high level alts, generous SGs or a Spelunking expedition to sell?
likewise, I bet 11-15 caps at the Training level. and I would't be surprised if 26-30 capped at DO level, too.
This gives 3 classes for training, 3 for DO, 3 for SO, and the 46-50 class has no cap. Maybe the 3 arenas are split that way: all matches in Galaxy cap at TO, Talos is the DO range, PI is SO+.
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Ariel's Editorial Option #5:
Figure out a way to make 22 the start of a weight class somehow.
22's fighting 21's on equal footing...fully-slotted SO's versus DO's is just not going to be pretty.
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This brings up a good point.
21 & under need to participate in a DO enhancement class because the power level jump from 21 to 22 for most characters is huge. I believe it is far too huge a difference to have level PvP between a 22 and a 21.
If the system only forces auto-exemplar to the top/5th level of the weight-class, then that will obviously be the most powerful characters of that group. Within some weight-classes we will see huge differences. (ie., healing flames with SO30++ at L29 heals for about 200 more health than the SO25++ player who will start the weight-class at L25, and that is just a simple example.)
One thing to remember IMO is that PvP, as in any MMog, really can't be balanced until the level field is even. So L50 is really the PvP starting point if you are are serious about the player-skill aspects of the game. Pre-50 PvP will be fun and I intend to do alot of it with my current 20sATs, but it must be approached with a very large dose of understanding. If anyones proposes balancing the power sets pre-50 then you are going to be disappointed.
Though the L21DO versus L22SO match should be addressed in development, I think most areas of in-weight-class balance should be left alone. The first four levels of a PvP class are going to be for PvE and PvP testing so that you can get serious
for one level and compete.
Btw, Hiya peeps!
Rathpig
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seeing as there's an arena in Galaxy City, I think they expect 7's and under to participate.
so your first class is 1-5. then 6-10, 11-15, 16-20 and so on.
you have a good point about 21s vs 22s. but maybe the cap is such that the 21-25 class is capped at DO level. After all, most 22's should not have SOs everywhere. Why should people have an edge because of high level alts, generous SGs or a Spelunking expedition to sell?
likewise, I bet 11-15 caps at the Training level. and I would't be surprised if 26-30 capped at DO level, too.
This gives 3 classes for training, 3 for DO, 3 for SO, and the 46-50 class has no cap. Maybe the 3 arenas are split that way: all matches in Galaxy cap at TO, Talos is the DO range, PI is SO+.
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I think it was stated that you cant PVP to 14 or 15. We dont know until it is released on test but...
Just because the zone has an arena doesnt mean the the suggested levels for that zone can fight in it.
It just makes it easier for all heroes to watch the action.
For instance on the test server I am sure the Galaxy arena will be a hot venue due to how close it is to Mr Respec. And the fact that all heroes from all servers can copy to test and have a Paragon Royal rumble.
I think the arena's in AP and Galaxy are there for convenience, more so for the lowbies seeing the battles then for participating in them.
Currently the Weight Classes are as such:
Strawweight-(Level 1 to 4)
Flyweight-(5 to 9)
Bantamweight-(10 to 14)
Featherweight-(15 to 19)
Lightweight-(20 to 24)
Welterweight-(25 to 29)
Middleweight-(30 to 34)
Cruiserweight-(35 to 39)
Heavyweight-(40 to 44)
Super Heavyweight-(45 to 50)
Positron
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[edit] Oops, Posi posted while I was writing!
Well, what about the DO/SO issue:
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Lightweight-(20 to 24)
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A 20 and a 21 aren't going to stand a chance against a 22, 23, or 24.
As an aside, referring to level 1-14 Arena fighting, we are going to see some highly inflated rankings.
*makes note to create a character called "The Diver" who takes dives for influence.
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(ie., healing flames with SO30++ at L29 heals for about 200 more health than the SO25++ player who will start the weight-class at L25, and that is just a simple example.)
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True. But a battle between 2 fire tanks is a pretty straightforward comparison to begin with, all you have is the level difference. There's little room for the type of Rock-Paper-Scissors game you'd get with Fire Tank - Fire Controller - Fire Blaster, or even Fire Tank - Invulnerable Tank - Earth Tank.
as for the level 15 start, I remember that comment, too. I thought that was limited to City of Villains and "player killing" PvP. The 15 limit was to prevent griefing newbies and make sure all players have a decent amount of powers before they start getting hunted - I see no need for that limit in an arena match.
I bet there are many differences between HvV and Arena PvP. For example, you "enter" the arena and have your weight class adjusted. In HvV I bet it's an automatic adjustment - you won't have to dial yourself down before opening fire on a lower level.
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Currently the Weight Classes are as such:
Strawweight-(Level 1 to 4)
Flyweight-(5 to 9)
Bantamweight-(10 to 14)
Featherweight-(15 to 19)
Lightweight-(20 to 24)
Welterweight-(25 to 29)
Middleweight-(30 to 34)
Cruiserweight-(35 to 39)
Heavyweight-(40 to 44)
Super Heavyweight-(45 to 50)
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Might be better to tweak the lvls a bit to take into consideration when people get DO's and SO's. As a previous poster stated a well funded lvl 22 would absolutely wipe the floor with an equal build one lvl lower.
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Well, what about the DO/SO issue:
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Lightweight-(20 to 24)
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A 20 and a 21 aren't going to stand a chance against a 22, 23, or 24.
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Let me rephrase what I said above, (and maybe Positron can answer this if he's still watching)
Statesman said, "the effectiveness of your Enhancements are capped to the level of effectiveness of that weight classes' Enhancements."
What is a Lightweight's enhancement?
If it's a SO, then yes there's probably an imbalance. If a it's a DO, then there's no problem - a 22 only gets is an edge during PvE.
They could changes the SOs to equal what it would be as a DO.....hey...they changed the hami enchs around....why not tweak the SOs a little for the 22-24s? 
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Well, what about the DO/SO issue:
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Lightweight-(20 to 24)
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A 20 and a 21 aren't going to stand a chance against a 22, 23, or 24.
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Let me rephrase what I said above, (and maybe Positron can answer this if he's still watching)
Statesman said, "the effectiveness of your Enhancements are capped to the level of effectiveness of that weight classes' Enhancements."
What is a Lightweight's enhancement?
If it's a SO, then yes there's probably an imbalance. If a it's a DO, then there's no problem - a 22 only gets is an edge during PvE.
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Maybe I misread how the weight classes work, but I think if you fight someone in your own weight class, your enhancements/powers are unaffected...that is, not exemplared down. So, if a lvl 22 is fighting a lvl 21, the lvl 22 player would not have his powers/enhancements reduced at all, since they are in the same weight class.
Meaning, the lvl 22, whose enhancements are twice the power of the lvl 21, would have a significant advantage (assuming all other things equal).
Or is this incorrect?
So, we go from a star to an insect to a chicken to a battleship to superheavyweight.
Makes sense. 
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I would just like to say that an arena league consisting entirely of level 1 characters would be really funny and potentially a lot of fun. Everyone runs around using their 2 powers plus brawl, and running out of endurance because they don't even have rest.
A well-equipped level 22 will have a huge advantage over a mediocrely equipped one...but isn't a better-equipped hero supposed to have an advantage, all other factors being the same?
I wonder if there's a "no Enhancements" match option...
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So, we go from a star to an insect to a chicken to a battleship to superheavyweight.
Makes sense.
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Um that would be straw to insect
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Well, what about the DO/SO issue:
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Lightweight-(20 to 24)
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A 20 and a 21 aren't going to stand a chance against a 22, 23, or 24.
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Let me rephrase what I said above, (and maybe Positron can answer this if he's still watching)
Statesman said, "the effectiveness of your Enhancements are capped to the level of effectiveness of that weight classes' Enhancements."
What is a Lightweight's enhancement?
If it's a SO, then yes there's probably an imbalance. If a it's a DO, then there's no problem - a 22 only gets is an edge during PvE.
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Maybe I misread how the weight classes work, but I think if you fight someone in your own weight class, your enhancements/powers are unaffected...that is, not exemplared down. So, if a lvl 22 is fighting a lvl 21, the lvl 22 player would not have his powers/enhancements reduced at all, since they are in the same weight class.
Meaning, the lvl 22, whose enhancements are twice the power of the lvl 21, would have a significant advantage (assuming all other things equal).
Or is this incorrect?
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Another thing to consider (if my brain is working properly...): Waht about a SL22 fully loaded with SO's vs a SL24.
Assuming that the SL24 character has not invested in improving all SO's to 25++, a power 5-slotted with damage SO's will have a 30% greater damage output (on base damage) by comparison. Dose the +2 SL difference properly account for this to make the SL24's powers more effective assuming they are similarly slotted?
Also, what does this to an exemplared character? Consider a SL26 character (again, with SL25 SO's) against the same SL22 hero. If you assume that the SO's. His same power, 5-slotted with damage enhancers will be a wopping 60% less effective AND he's bumped down to SL24 to boot, loosing a fair chunck of his level advantage.
I'm not sure how the enhancement levels scale with exemplaring, but it may be worth considering...
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isn't a better-equipped hero supposed to have an advantage, all other factors being the same?
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Well, then, shouldn't a 50 beat the stuffing out of a level 25?
Statesman and others (Lord Recluse) have said they should. Of course, we can't play in a system where level 50's run around pummeling level 10's for fun, but to use your language, they are supposed to have a huge advantage.
And yet they don't because we want a fair system.
P.S. You can have most of your SO's at 22 if you just save for them. Knowing that from level 1, it is easy to have 350-600,000 inf by the time you hit lvl 22.
I generally have 450K or so by then and buy 20-25 SO's. If you are powerleveling, then of course you would need friends to twink you.
My point being that it is unfair to say that level 22's with SO's have gained their advantage unfairly which is not necessarily the case...only for PLers.
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Currently the Weight Classes are as such:
Strawweight-(Level 1 to 4)
Flyweight-(5 to 9)
Bantamweight-(10 to 14)
Featherweight-(15 to 19)
Lightweight-(20 to 24)
Welterweight-(25 to 29)
Middleweight-(30 to 34)
Cruiserweight-(35 to 39)
Heavyweight-(40 to 44)
Super Heavyweight-(45 to 50)
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Call meh crazy but I think this might be a little better spread although a new weight class would have to be invented:
1-5 = Strawweight
(Newbie Cup, I imagine this title will be like the contaminated badge meaning everyone can and will win this class but with scrappers and blasters having a stronger showing. Also fun to watch)
6-9 = Flyweight
(starts at 6 since you have access to power pools)
10-13 = Bantamweight
(pre-travel power class)
14-17 = Featherweight
(does anyone else think this class should start at 14 since we get travel powers then?)
18-21 = ?????weight
(a new weight class would have to be created for the pre-SO division)
22-25 = Lightweight
(SO division)
26-29 = Welterweight
(the minors)
30-34 = Middleweight
(the big leagues and the slots start pouring in)
35-39 = Cruiserweight
(we see how a pure built AT performs against another in this division and witness how Rock/Paper/Scissors the ATs truly are)
40-44 = Heavyweight
(epic powers begin to narrow the field)
45-50 = Super Heavyweight
(SUPERBRAWL XXVIII = maxxed out Hammi enhancers will rule us all!!!)
So (with the exception of the Strawweight class) we have a nice 4 level spread among the beginning classes until middleweight when it becomes 5 levels per class. We don't really have to worry about anyone having too great an advantage except for maybe the 10-13 Bantamweight class when level 12 & 13s get DOs but getting from 10 to 12 is much faster than getting from 20 to 22 so if a 10 is having problems he could just do mishies and street hunt till he gets to 12.
That's fabulous Manje!
I tinkered with something like that myself, but gave up speculating.
The idea of 4 level spreads at lower levels makes, sense, too: at those levels, level is all.
Your new hero would never consider taking on a +4 boss (I assume a PC would be similar to a +4 boss or LT) but at 30+ it doesn't require as much thought.
In other words, the difference between a 10 and a 14 is severe (40% more levels, mathematically speaking) while a 30 and a 34 isn't as pronounced (just over 10%).
If you told me a level 30 beat a 34 I'd believe it without hesitation.
But if you told me that a lvl 5 beat a 9, I'd be shocked. Well, no I wouldn't, I just wouldn't believe it.
I think the distinctions you made for power pools, travel powers, and SO's are meaningful. But even if not, they are more meaningful than cutting everything at 5, only because that's how many fingers I have on each hand.
Surprised the Simpsons don't use base 8, really.
There are a lot of level ranges where in particular ATs it would make a huge difference. For example, how are 31 pet Controllers going to compete with 33s who have slotted pets? Would a 31 fire/kinetic have *any* chance against a 33 fire/kinetic?
The whole concept of weight classes is odd, to say the least. The original idea of straight exemplar-ed down to the lower level would be much better. (IE if a 23 fights a 21, exemplared to 21. if a 33 fights a 31, exemplared to 31.)
In teams, everyone can be exemplared down to the lowest in either team.
The weight class plan just adds complexity and creates imbalances where none are necessary. Can you explain why it was created, and why the original idea explained at the Stratics chat, where the higher level simply exemplared down to the lower, was dissatisfactory?
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Currently the Weight Classes are as such:
Strawweight-(Level 1 to 4)
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Maybe I should make a PvP character just for that weight class... name him Straw Hat. His battle cry? "I bring you flowers and a .22 with shells!"
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Currently the Weight Classes are as such:
Strawweight-(Level 1 to 4)
Flyweight-(5 to 9)
Bantamweight-(10 to 14)
Featherweight-(15 to 19)
Lightweight-(20 to 24)
Welterweight-(25 to 29)
Middleweight-(30 to 34)
Cruiserweight-(35 to 39)
Heavyweight-(40 to 44)
Super Heavyweight-(45 to 50)
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Here is an alternate distribution. It is not even, but divided by important levels (enhancements and power selection):
Strawweight-(Level 1 to 5) - pre power pool
Flyweight-(6 to 11) - pre dual-origins
Bantamweight-(12 to 13) - pre travel power
Featherweight-(14 to 21) - pre single origins (wide and varied fights here)
Lightweight-(22 to 26) - single origins and perma powers (stamina becomes effective, as does perma hasten)
Welterweight-(27 to 31) - pre primary set completion
Middleweight-(32 to 37) - pre secondary set completion
Cruiserweight-(38 to 40) - pre auxiliary power
Heavyweight-(41 to 46) - pre max auxiliary
Super Heavyweight-(47 to 50) - access to every power available
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Let me rephrase what I said above, (and maybe Positron can answer this if he's still watching)
Statesman said, "the effectiveness of your Enhancements are capped to the level of effectiveness of that weight classes' Enhancements."
What is a Lightweight's enhancement?
If it's a SO, then yes there's probably an imbalance. If a it's a DO, then there's no problem - a 22 only gets is an edge during PvE.
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My guess, and it is only a guess, is that with this weight class topping out at level 24 and the first SO being level 25, SOs wouldn't be part of Lightwieght. I'd want to hear it from a Dev before I said so anywhere else though.
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" Adam Savage from Mythbusters
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Felisse wrote:
The whole concept of weight classes is odd, to say the least. The original idea of straight exemplar-ed down to the lower level would be much better. (IE if a 23 fights a 21, exemplared to 21. if a 33 fights a 31, exemplared to 31.)
In teams, everyone can be exemplared down to the lowest in either team.
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I also liked the straight-exemplar concept. This seemed a simple system with predictable changes.
Using the "weight-class" system I can't find one case where the top-weight doesn't define the class ~ completely. What this system creates is a fight your on exact level or PvE until you reach the top level in class and can compete.
Now, I really don't care one way or another. A system is a system. Real PvP is gonna be L50 w/ Hamis - anything else will be just fun stuff but not the top of the endgame. It just seems much more difficult to try and work out a mutliple class system when direct to lowest grouped level auto-exemplar would be easy to explain to the masses.
But to make an even more serious point when has been disabused within this tread: Don't dismiss the reality of L22s in the majority to be twinked with at least the minimum needed L25SOs. Its really beggin' money if thats your first character. Now the 30SO line may be pricey. but even so if you enter the Arena without the proper bling you will prolly lose the match.
I'm not trying to take sides, but everything in a PvP game must be examined carefully. My main use for Arena will be sparring friends on LAN. Though I'll fight all comers win or lose if they ask, I think CoV will be my true goal, and Arena just a guild v guild training ground. The 1v1 ladder will tempt me if its broken out by class 'cause the mirror match with just about every AT will be an indepth study of powers and player skill.
the devil is always in the details.
Are those going to be the titles for the Weight Classes or just a generalization? Personally I would like to see more "Heroic" type names for the Weight Classes. Maybe name the Classes after the Signature Heroes whereby the Statesman class would be the highest. Just an idea.
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From Statesman:
If you battle in the Arena another hero in a weight class below you (weight classes are five level bands), you will be auto-exemplared to that weight class.
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Does anybody know if the Arena works the same as COV PvP? Ie., level 15 required to participate?
Based on what Statesman said, there's two options here.
Option #1:
Multiples of 5 are top of the class.
46-50
41-45
36-40
31-35
26-30
21-25
16-20
15 <--- Weight Class "zero"?
Option #2:
Multiples of 5 begin the class.
50 <--- Special Class of its own*
45-49
40-44
35-39
30-34
25-29
20-24
15-19
* Actually, I think this is pretty cool--50's have to exemp against everybody. "Pick on somebody your own size."
Based on pure speculation on my part, there's a third option that seems likely:
Option #3
45-50 <--- Weight Class of six
40-44
35-39
30-34
25-29
20-24
15-19
Option #4:
Oops! Make PVP start at level sixteen.
Ariel's Editorial Option #5:
Figure out a way to make 22 the start of a weight class somehow.
22's fighting 21's on equal footing...fully-slotted SO's versus DO's is just not going to be pretty.