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I'm not begrudging the Inv people their improvements, but Rooted needs a change too for balance! It's not even as though it provides +res like Unyielding. Its side effect (improved health regen) is not combat effective.
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You're silly. 
I'll gladly trade you my mobile status and -def in return for your rooted! 
Seriously though, I heard once that Rooted could actually be overcome if you get enough speed enhancers somewhere, somehow. I don't how true this is though...
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I heard once that Rooted could actually be overcome if you get enough speed enhancers somewhere, somehow. I don't how true this is though...
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Our ulti-power, Granite, allows you to resist your own self-root. This much has been confirmed by several tanks.
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Rock Armor for some +def lethal/smash (inferior to +res)
And someone else mentioned this... and I'm not trying to troll or flame or anything but I was under the impression Defense was better than Resistance, Defense results in no damage at all while resistance is just less damage... am i wrong?
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It depends on your assumptions.
Def is also better in the sense that it affects mixed damage attacks (so smash/lethal def works against all attacks with a smash/lethal component, so if the attack misses, there is no damage from either component) whereas Res reduces damage for only the one component (so you will take full damage from the other component, assuming you have no Res for it).
But I think the main diff has to do with who you are fighting. If you are fighting mobs who are way higher level than you, then it may well be that Res will be better for your than Def. If you have +Def, it may not make much difference, because the mob accuracy is so good, but +Res will always apply.
So which is better really depends on a lot of things.
I would imagine/hope that what States is saying is that you can expect to essentially be playing a new set once Update 4 rolls around, if the plans for the new graphics are so involved that the current ones can't be patched.
Though I do not use it as much now that I have Granite Armor, I would prefer that Rooted remain the way it is instead of being "nerfed" just for mobility. There are times I perfer to fight sans GA, and Rooted really helps out with that.
However, I don't chagrin those without GA for wanting mobile status protection. I wish there was a way to slot Rooted so that it could optionally be slotted with a running enhancement - slot it with run, gain mobility but lose some protection - something like that. Don't know how viable that is, though.
Smokin' Joseph - Lvl 50 DM/REG Scrapper - Freedom
Dr. Dirtnap - Lvl 48 Stone/Stone Tanker - Champion
Colonel Sycophantova - Lvl 38 Merc/Traps MM - Champion
Silver Streak - Lvl 50 Fire/NRG Blaster - Champion
Invisible Dragon - Lvl 33 MA/Ninjitsu Stalker - Infinity
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Again, this is an art issue AND a design one. The changes to ALL the armors are coming in Update 4 at the latest.
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Again? You have never said it was an art issue AND a design issue. You've only said it was an art issue in the past.
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If they let armors stack, there'll be design issues, won't there?
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Only if they wish to rebalance the set, as in toning down the other powers now that they stack. A lot of people didn't want that.
I think we have to assume that much just based on the fact that armors will stack, for certain. Either that, or the individual armors take a strong nerf. I personally am pretty happy with stone's tankability - I can easily murder +2s, and I've very seldom had any trouble with a single boss. Really, these days, I can't remember the last time I worried about a non-AV enemy when I was on my own. Last major to-do was maybe the reactor room, which is obviously going to be some of the hardest content going. Freak tanks are a joke, and tanking a 10-pack with 1-2 tanks in Terra Nova isn't hard at all.
It wasn't all golden times on the way up, and I still pop insps, but I consider that to be normal and healthy play balance.
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Thanks, States. This is a really hard delay for me to swallow, but at least it's still in the works. I hope the DA and Stone folks will hang in there for three more months to get the protection they've deserved since day 1.
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"Deserved"?!
*rolls his eyes and shakes his head*
Not saying it's not a needed boost, but "deserved"?
*just...walks away.*
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Yup. I think Stone Armor tanks and Dark Armor scrappers deserve better treatment than this. I've played this game a great deal since launch and I regularly team with 2 DA scrappers (40 & 46) and 1 Stone tanker (24). They eat dirt far more frequently than their */regen or */invuln counterparts. These non-stacking armors are really that broken. According to these forums, these inequalities between different scrapper and tanker sets were revealed during beta. So, considering those facts, I think it's pretty sad when the promise of stackable armors that surfaced pre-Update 2 is being pushed back all the way to Update 4.
Adding to the frustration, we get to see Kheldians rolled out in Issue 3 complete with...(ta daa!) stackable armors. Serving new content is commendable, but I think it was poor judgement to prioritize prestige ATs over addressing long-standing issues on regular ATs.
What I don't understand is why they didn't just change Rooted to a large -Slow effect?
It would be as thematic, since if you can move enough to turn to fight people behind you, obvioulsy you're not frozen in place.
And it would be a lot easier to play with being slowed down as if by Caltrops, than with being unable to move at all.
I would only hope that my tank would be able to move at the minimum speed, this would allow me to move up to the guys who wander away and then pull out their guns when I hit them with my mace.
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Adding to the frustration, we get to see Kheldians rolled out in Issue 3 complete with...(ta daa!) stackable armors. Serving new content is commendable, but I think it was poor judgement to prioritize prestige ATs over addressing long-standing issues on regular ATs.
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While I agree with you on this, I think that there may have been another reason for doing this. In a quote by Geko:
Kheldians are a very complex Archetypes. They are also exclusively played by our most diehard fans.
It sounds to me like they are almost being used as a test Archetype for various things... including the strengths and weaknesses of stacking armors. Personally, I'm excited about all the changes being mad, good and bad, because it means that they care enough about the game to constantly be concerned about what concerns us as the players. If something gets goofed up in a change, at least they're trying. It's not like they can read our minds or anything. 
QUOTING FROM A EARLIER POST
I'm acting early here to stop you and yours from effectively screwing all of that up. Stone is a GREAT set for anyone who isn't looking to herd enemies, which is in my opinion an utterly stupid way to play and I'd be happy to see it turn into guaranteed death for its patrons. It feels - and hopefully soon enough will look - like a tanker should, loud and solid, with ineffectual enemies swatting at the impermeable outer coating.
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I'm glad as a level 26 Stoner you have full knowledge of our class. It must be GREAT as judged by the way I find myself in PI surrounded not by /inv or /regen scrappers or /dev blasters or Fire/ controllers but by multitudes of my brethren.
OK flame over .. but believe me as a 26 if you think Granite Armour will be the answer to all your prayers you are in for a rude awakening.As a Stone Tanker who is one level away from retirement (stubborness > sense) let me tell you why i'm disillusioned based on comments from group mates.
1. "Wait a second the turd hasn't got here yet" The defining thing of the stone tanker is you get the joyous decision of being every 40+ mobs mezz [censored] unless A. you slow yourself into the ground (even using 1 of your precious power pools for hasten) B. you immobolise yourself (or waste your final precious power pool on teleport (provoke and stamina already booked)) and even then get frustrated as your teammates knock things back as you try and swing at them with your slow slow attacks C. you go around with more discipline than a royal marines battalion.
2. "Oh cool a psionic AV, that's cool, turd tankers have psionic armour" ... ok off topic but the main reason I started my guy was the lure of psionic defence, it was the thing that made me different. What I didn't realise was that I would get to use that psionic armour so rarely as to make it almost pointless. At the higher levels to tank properly you are pretty much permenantly in Granite Armour (or eating floor) so even if I wanted to stick psi defence up to stop a Wisp ripping me to shreds I dare not .. so much for the psi tanker !
OK off to get some cheese to go with my whine, but sorry Island, Stone IS NOT a great set yet!! Great for me is a set that is fun to play and this isn't .. if you find it so post 40 good luck to you but I resent you talking down to other stoners when your character is barely out of nappies.
Will it be Brie?
You know, as a Stone Tanker, I feel that Granite slotted up WAS the answer to my needs. Yes, I need hasten, but since Super Speed does function with Granite, I have never had the party waiting for me. I have found that Mud Pots are sufficient to keep a lot of aggro on me (Pots damage ticks are not slowed down by Granite).
Personally, I don't have Provoke, and really no one seems to notice. With Super Speed and Teleport, and mud pots, I can keep a lot of aggro on me as it is.
Interestingly enough, the idea that Stoners can't herd is pretty silly. Most enemies will give chase, and with superspeed I can pull lots and lots of enemies.
As for myself, at level 38, I don't have provoke, and people don't mind. What it really means is that the AOE blasters have to be careful, or that there is room for a controller, or heavens forfend, another tanker.
Getting to the idea of Psi. This is exactly the situation that ANOTHER TANKER is useful for. Me, I like to team with other tankers, but there is this philosophy that every team should there will be ONLY ONE Tanker, and that really doesn't have to be the case.
Stamina everyone is forced to get. Teleport is pretty much a must have early on, but once you get granite, teleport is optional, and can be re-specced out. I keep it myself because I like vertical movement. Superspeed and hasten though are MUST HAVE. It looks like the Presence Pool is about to become optional, so you get two pool options if you really want, but what the heck do you WANT?
I am just starting to see more and more psi, but right now there is no doubt that I am in more fear of things that hit my end bar than anything else (and Carnie bosses do that, joy). 0 end means 0 toggles no matter how you slice it, and that means all defense goes bye-bye, including mezz defense.
I respect the level 49 stoner tag, but level 36 was where I had a HUGE turnaround.
Thing is, there are so few stoners, and it is a schlep to the "promised land," and I suspect that the first implementation of stacking armors are really going to be a disappointment, rather than a cause for joy.
We'll see.
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OK off to get some cheese to go with my whine, but sorry Island, Stone IS NOT a great set yet!! Great for me is a set that is fun to play and this isn't .. if you find it so post 40 good luck to you but I resent you talking down to other stoners when your character is barely out of nappies.
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First, I think that you've at least made substantial points. Now let me reiterate mine:
- as far as I've played, stone is a great set.
- Whatever else happens, i don't want this screwed up.
Addendum: I really don't care what happens in the late game right now, because I know my set IS a great choice for someone who wants to enjoy themselves through the first half of the ladder, and it feels very powerful. It has a unique flavor. Now, if there are problems with the late game that can only be solved with mobile status resist, well...we already have it. I don't see your point. Spend another power to be fast, or get an unstoppable/MoG-style crash...hmmm... I'll take the former, please! Not dying makes me happy!
As a stone/Ax tanker who was buit to scrap, I'm calling BS.
Anyone who can "TANK" even level enemies with ONLY rooted is unlikely. No way you could tank for a team like this. NO WAY.
If you mean that you possible solo or take low numbers of mobs, then, yes, it is possible. I scrap them w/o armor and using healthy which is about the same thing. But I certainly can't TANK for a group like that. If a simple DOUBLING of your hp regen rate was enough, then guess what? REGEN SCRAPPERS NEED TO BE RE-NERF'D. Since that was disproven, then your claim is WRONG. I JUST attempted to tank a 2 man team against nemsis -1 level to me. w/o my armor they dropped me halfway through my hp and that was WITH a small def inspir. That is unacceptable hp loss. If you are a stone stone, or ice tank, It's plausible, but your not TANKING them with rooted so much as scrapping them. The status effects might be assisting to slow the dmg amounts down. BUT NOT ALL PEOPLE WANT TO PLAY stone/ice or stone/stone, or know to slot towards the stat changes.
Please do NOT tell future tanks to ignore their Toggles as if rooted could save them and their team. Armor less tanks are worthless to a team. Atleast till we get more dmg 
ROOTED DOES NOT A TANK MAKE.
+Def > +Res. Stun secondaries will stun you with + res. if you have not got rooted down, you're screwed. It's called Toggle Drop.
Granite Armor = OMG. I have it unslotted with 1 SO + Def. I am the sickest tanker I've ever SEEN already. The mobs might as well bring a nuke, it ain't getting through. With a Emp healers Fort so I can HIT mobs, and an every once in awhile healer, I could TANK +8's. Status protection included. +Res vs all but psi. Granite... a TOGGLE version of MoG. Without the HP drop.
Some things that discourage me about this "rooted poo cage" stuff. The thought that is has gimped stone. If that is your view, your welcome to be WRONG. It is an early weakness in the game, like fire tankers before burn. Like energy blasters before Explosive blast. Once you overcome the CHALLENGE(not gimp, a hurdle is not a gimping, it's a hurdle) to reach 32, you will forget you ever HAD any other armor. You'll take Rock, Granite, and Mineral. If anything, I suggest rockies forget about all other armors till they get granite, just keep stone and rock and go to town. Is it do able though???
1. I did it w/o ANY of the other armors, just rock.
2. I did it with rock and stone skin both slotted to 4 slots up till I hit SO's.
3. I did it w/o provoke.
Am I king of all tankers? No.
Am I the greatest hack in the world? No.
Did I let some damn Tesla Knight slow me down? Maybe just a little.
Was it DIFFICULT? HELL NO. It was a snap. Hardest part was remembering to use my pinkies to protect from mezz.
EDUCATE.
Educate YOURSELF to get in there quick and DROP ROOTED next to the mezzers. Now TARGET the mezzers and hopefully you have slotted your attacks some and can kill the little buggers.
Educate your TEAM to ONLY target Mezzers first. Most of my problems in teams were due to STUPID teams. Wheither you have granite, Unstoppable, or the worlds best hack, STUPID TEAMS will ALWAYS screw it up. No matter WHAT AT you play.
Blaster with a tank who refuses to draw aggro.
Defender trying to heal a team with a blaster who refuses to NOT try to scrap the AV.
Controller with 1 hit awaken sleep stuns and a spine scrapper who REFUSES to turn off Quills.
Find them. Avoid them. Stupid Teams.
If your taking stuff on that you already have no defense against like CoT, why are you FIGHTING them to begin with? Atleast why are you attemptng to TANK them? Mezzers at low levels are not enough to require you to change rooted. Buy a pink, get an empath, or get a controller. Or just get a blaster to draw the mezzers fire while you move in. It's not only doable, but it's extremely easy.
I tanked the Clockwork TF TWICE w/o energy or provoke. In a large group, other peoples abilities make up for your lack. Like an empather healer, or against clockwork, good ol' storm's O2 boost.
Freakshow? Get a Kinetic with Increase Density! Mobile Mezz is not that necessary until higher level games. Sure it's a risk to drop rooted and move with3 freak tanks with hammer hands banging around, but that's a part of life... risk taking.
If I can tank the Clockwork TF as a STORM defender w/o ANY mezz protection, I think stoners can last till 32 to become the uber unkillable rock of moving mezz.
Anyway, don't mean to insult anyone, have at it, I'm enjoying level 33 and STILL not having slotted granite lol...
PS: Granite is next on the nerf block, wait and see =)
"IF You see a Tanker Taunting you STOP IMMIEDIATLY. Everybody knows... if the Tanker has to come and get you, he's bringing a Butt Kicking with 'em."
Super Shotty Mario Bros.
Champion
Let me clarify further:
It's not clear to me what problem GA is going to solve in the first place. Copacetic? I don't have any issues for which I need a big gun right now, and the next thing I anticipate needing one for is the psionic-heavy pantheon. I turn my armors off so i can attack faster. So I don't know what the monstrous task requiring some super silver bullet you've assigned yourself is, but it DOES NOT EXIST YET for me. Ergo, you will have to explain it like I am, as you say, "barely out of nappies".
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I thought I'd deal with this separately.
1) +res < + def in my experience so far.
2) +res for Stone Skin. Yeah, you're trying hard.
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IMO, RES is far greater then DEF. Toggled with the + health of Rooted I would take +RES over +Def any day of the week, and twice on sundays. Slotted out, in the 33+ game (32 for granite, 33 to slot it out), we can easily hit the 90 cap on RES.
The problem is the change. We are so used to +DEF thet the drastic change is hard to get used to. Think of it this way. How often have you had a -DEF effect on you, and compare it to how often you have had a -RES efffect (im fairly sure there not in the game, or at least I have not seen one to date)
So looking at the whole picture, IMO RES is far better then DEF.
I dont like the Stand and plant effect of rooted, and would welcome a mobile version, or keep it as it is and give it a +END as well as heal to compensate for the lack of mobility. I have gotten along with it, and will continue to use it, but I do remember how frustrating it was to engage TSOO Sorc's who kept poppin out of range.
I think the idea of Rooting to the Earth to regen hp fits, in concept and sorta feels "right". I really like Rooted, and if it was getting changed I'd much prefer the status resist were moved (Disorient and hold to Rock, sleep hold to something else...or even leave sleep on Rooted, I don't know.) and the end cost was reduced.
I have to say, as a Stone Tanker, I really don't want Rooted changed to allow movement. See, conceptually, I like Rooted. The idea of it works for me, bound to the earth, drawing power from it.
There are some changes I would like to make to Rooted, such as reducing the recharge time so that with a few SO enhancers I could get it to come back up in about a second. That would allow me to, shut it down, move where I need to, and reset, without it being quite as much of a risk as it is now, with just standing there waiting for it to come back.
I also preferred things back when Rooted aided endurance regen and not health. I really can't recall the last time I was in a fight where my health was lower than my endurance.
As for the stacking armor thing, I don't really like that plan either. In my opinion, a better idea would be to just add smashing/lethal defences to Brimstone/Crystal/Mineral and make either the smash/lethal add defence while the element/energy/psychic add resist, or, give the smash/lethal the resistance and the others the defence. Then to make sure Rock is still considered useful, give it both defence and resistance to smashing/lethal. As for Stone Skin still being needed? Well . . . I never took that power anyway.
Someone sorta mentioned this earlier, but the difference between Defense and Damage Resistance (imho, subject to the more qualified opinions of those much smarter than me):
Defense is damage avoidance, you can increase your defense, but it is capped. And if you get hit, you take 100% of the damage.
Damage Resistance is damage mitigation, you can increase the amount of damage that you resist, but it is capped and you will also take some nominal damage if they hit you.
So, for example, in a team situation, with one or more people designated to heal the team (and you), someone with Damage Resistance provides a predictable heal ratio. You can watch them get whittled down and respond. With someone that relies exclusively on Defense, everything looks peachy, and then suddenly a few succesful, damaging melee attacks and that person is face planted.
What used to make me as an Invuln Tanker pretty sick is that I could hit healing flames for several hundred hp+, and with my TI (+res smash, lethal) and Invincibility (+def (all but psionics), +acc) both on at the same time, I was designed to herd. With 6 slots in TI and 1 slot in Invinc, it made sense to get as many baddies around me as possible so that I quickly get very high Defense without slotting. In addition, I had lesser Auto +res to (smash, lethal, fire, cold, energy, neg energy) and Auto +def (all but psionics). The Autos make a lot of sense, but being able to noticeably boost the Defense cap and Accuracy for a L20 Power (nothing negative) compared to the Stone's L32 power (3 things negative)? Seems weird. Sure, in theory this makes the Stone Tanker really awesome at L32+, but the Invuln is doing the same thing at L20+ (or mine is at least).
Some people have properly noticed that effective Defense can be very effective. But Damage Resistance is usually still superior (particularly when there are auto hit pbaoe toggles (like Envoy of Shadows or other powers that bypass or lower defense), since you can predict when you need to escape with Damage Resistance, use an inspiration, or receive a heal from a teammate. And you can't buy Damage Resistance Inspirations.
Stone Tankers get Granite Armor which is (+def, +res all but psionics) -spd -dmg (changing to -acc?) -recharge. No Autos, no stacking. At L32.
The way around it, get Fitness for endurance, get Superspeed to overcome the -spd, get Hasten for the faster attacking. Use lots of Damage inspirations to compensate for being a giant slab of silly putty.
I really like the endurance regen idea while rooted as well.
Spiritwrath also mentioned that it had this power back in the daze of way back, but I don't know when.
We already have Earth's Embrace for health compensation. There are a variety of other sets that have the ability to boost health and endurance (fiery aura, regen, empathy, kinetics, radiation, dark melee), so it doesn't seem that balance is what's at stake? Give us some sort of meaningful boost (+acc, +dam, +recharge, +red end cost) with Rooted.
Devs, with the datamining, when you figured out that almost no one took Taunt, did you see how many Stone Tankers took Rooted or kept it? Did you notice how many Stone Tankers are even logged in within the last 7-30 days (under the assumption that many have either rolled, but don't play, or retired their Stone Tankers)? I fear that Stone and Ice Tanks don't get love, because no one loves to play them. It's a vicious cycle.
On another topic, why is it that Stone and Ice are defense based when it seems that a giant block of ice or concrete would be more effective at resisting damage (being slowly chipped at, so to speak)?
We already know we're going to be able to stack our armors. What the cost will be, we don't know. But with stacking armors I don't think GA is going to be the end-all and be-all of the set anymore.
Actually I dont mind that much...being rooted would be cool with a slight modifacation....Perhaps if we could pic up our roots with our hand and drag it with us...In that situation we would have the protection but we couldnt attack while dragging it because we got our hands full...Plus it would look cool...WE could drop it and start smacking them again...
Huh? There is no way i'd ever go into a fight with only stone skin and rooted....That Wouldnt work...
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try tanking anything with only Rooted on and your health bar shrinks to nil.
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Since I actually play the powerset, I know this is a lie. Thanks for trying tho. You can't tank insane stuff with just rooted. You should not be *capable* of tanking insane stuff with just rooted. I turn rooted on long before I turn rock armor on. It's a more interesting exercise, and it means i don't get knocked down.
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Speaking from what I'd guess is the low end, Jack has done just fine so far with Rooted (he's lvl 18 now). Didn't even take Stone Armor, and can't recall the last time he was kille---erm, I mean knocked unconscious and teleported to hospital