Feedback: Stimulant too SHORT!!

Just tested the Stimulant change, that drastically lowers duration from 6 minutes to 1 minute.

First and foremost, 3 affirmations:

* The #1 goal of this game is fun
* Tanker's role is, accoding to Statesman, to be damage sponges
* Only a minority of players bother to fight Riktis, DEs, Carnies, Creys, Malthas, and Tsoos on a volontary basis (not mission related) Thus deserted areas (Crash Site, Eden, DE parts on Talos, IP, and FF)


Me and some friends were a bit sceptical about this change. We use Stims a lot to fight Riktis and Carnies. We like the crash site. Our alts like to get Tsoos and DEs. This change did not bode well for us..

Test : after a few hours on test, i think the changes are horrible.

-First, we had a lot more deaths. From the buff simply dropping mid fight, thus getting the tanker stunned, and killed. 60 sec is not very long considering we were fighting oranges and reds. Rikti Mentalist Boss, in spawn of 2 or 3 , can take a while to take down. As for rebuffing mid fight, well, if the Stimulator was under aggro, moving, out of range, or death, forget it...

- The Blaster with Stim was turned into a Stim Bot. Now, let's say, for safety, that you want 2 stim stacked on a character to protect him. That means, instead of 2 buffs/6 minutes, you jump to 12 casts.

Now, if you fight in a full group with 3 frontliners (2 tanks and a scrapper) that means, you go from 6 cast to... 36 casts!! Or, if you like, one cast every 10 seconds . How fun is that, for a blaster, to cast Stims every 10 seconds... Yay.

This is ridiculous, and brings me back to my bubbler pre-4-minutes day. Back when bubble lasted 2 minutes, that's all you did. And no one played bubblers. 4 minutes is the minimum a buff should last to be any "fun", for a must-have buff.

Back to our 2 affirmations:

- Beeing a Stim spammer is not fun
- Tankers can't be good sponges (and will refuse to be) against status effect spamming mobs without good protection
- With the current change, Stimulant is not a reliable stun protection. The few who have it will respecialize out of it and do like the rest, hunt Nemesis.

In Short : 60 seconds is not long enough to make a buff effective, for a buff that needs to be reliable, because people depend on it while choosing what mobs to fight.


General thoughts: Status effects and their protection against it is one of the best in-game group oriented feature. It makes a frontliner (tanker/scrapper) want to team with a Stimulator (or a defender with an similar buff). The reverse is true, a blaster with Stim now wants to team a frontliner to be able to hunt controlling mobs. Both win by hunting non-nemesis mobs...

If this synergy does not exist, then all go back to soloing non-controlling mobs, like Freaks, Familiy, Skyraiders, Nemesis. /yawn.

<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre> I strongly suggest to the devs </pre><hr /> that they actually make all buffs better. Stim should be at least 4 minutes to be viable. Clear Mind, O2 Boost and Increased Density should protect from ALL effects and last 5 or more minutes.

The only thing to be gained by this is: more desire to group, players stronger when group, and an increase in players fighting Carnies, Riktis, etc.

I'm sure you datamine this, you only will find the Crash Site and Eden more visited...

Good overall points, I think. If baddies with status effect attacks are going to be an intregal part of the high level game, and status effects are going to continue to have the steep penalty that they currently have in terms of dropped toggles, ect then reliable status effect protection needs to be an integral and reliable part of the players' tools. If they are not, large otherwise interesting and rewarding swaths of the game may end up being ignored because challenge is not the same as suicide or tedium.

Without getting into debates about what the actual duration should be, I agree that status effect protection needs to be looked into overall. The longer duration of stimulant gave me some hope that this was being recognized, even if it made my primary protection, ID, seem even shorter in comparison...

Maybe they're worried that there's going to be problems when PvP comes out with controller type powers if good status protection actually exists?

The problem with status protection buffs from what i've seen up to level 38 is that with fully slotted defense/resistance a lot of the challenge is lost if we don't drop our shields and die in one hit. So to make the game difficult instead of lowering the resistance numbers or making defense lines not quite such and all or nothing way to live it's been decided we need to be statused. I know that personally i love feeling helpless while stumbling around disoriented with my shields down and in melee range of boss mobs, nothing is comforting like dying to lag, stun effects that make your keyboard worthless, or character weakness designed specifically for huge stakes of punishment to be driven through because of our desire to spend time in an mmorpg. So right now if you want to play most of the lines you are forced to only fight easier mobs like nazi, find a friend thats up for playing one of the status spammer classes to follow you around and push that button over and over, make a status bot with it on auto-cast, or dive in and hope for the best. Currently with 3 clear minds stacked on me i'll still get stunned plenty, and this isn't even the dreaded after 4o game i read about. I know the game can be pretty easy going for the fully slotted resist/defense characters, or with abilities like invincibility that required no slots to make you god-like, but i don't feel like death through status is best option to create challenge. I don't feel like it makes the fights hard, it makes them either so risky you avoid those mobs like the plague, or its so easy those mobs are camped 24/7. The vahz blick newbies dead, smart newbies learn to never fight vahz ever and tell contacts with vahz missions to never speak to them again and we go fight clockworks or skulls.

If our resistance is too high when fully slotted and thus you think statusing us to death is the fix then by all means please nerf the shields to a level you feel leaves the game challenging and let us play, not stand there dizzy hoping something doesn't hit our melee char for 12oo in 1 swing when we have 12oo hps total, sort of hard to keep people alive when they take full hp damage each swing. I know the higher damaging mobs arent as common, but they exist and some things force us to fight them, task forces or whatever, so sometimes we do have to encounter them. If it means revamping the game a bit i think the community could survive and support it, we want to have fun, thats why we pay 15 bucks and log in to the game each day.

We're supposed to be superheroes, we're supposed to save the day, we're supposed to sometimes fail, but letting us die trying would be nice, not making us die helpless because of the status bus you want to shove into the status hole you left in our character sets. There has to be another way to fix the game.

Passive shields, lower shield % but only allowing sleep to drop the shields and the other effects to only render us unable to attack or run or something negative but not omgimwftpwned negative, there has to be some middle ground.

Tested further.
In a 8 man mission of Carnies, we had some incredible fights. Fights lasted WELL OVER 5 minutes at times. Specially fights with 3 master illusionists boss.

Many deaths due to Stim dropping.

Conclusion: without a long effect protection, it is better for a player to do carnie missions solo or duo, where you don't get illlusionists.

So, only 3 of us playing with this?

I have a question to the devs: How is a power that helps fighting mobs with status effects when paired/grouped overpowered?

Does stimulant help fight Riktis? Yes.
Solo? no.
Does a team get more XP with Stimulant: NO
They get the same exp as fightning Nemesis or CoTs.

This power does not get better xp, does not create PL. It just puts mezzing mobs on par with other mobs.

Right now players have the choice not to fight mezzers: Nemesis, Axis America farms, Preathorian farms, Portal Farms, etc...

PLease, adress this.

Devs, why can't we have good, effective, and lasting group-oriented efect protection?

a very good point. I was actually thinking of taking up the medicine pool, since, after fighting Carnies and Malta, I feel that stimulant is becoming increasingly necessary. Why the change, DEVs?

it used to be 20 seconds. I meant to change it to 60 seconds, but accidently made it like 600 or something. That made it 5 times better than the Defender Clear Mind power. Clear mind was 60 seononds, and it is now 90 seconds. Stimulant must not be as good as clear mind.

Geko, what about the duration of Inertial Reduction? I don't have it on my Kin defender yet but I hear it's pretty short as well. It seems it should be boosted as well, especially considering the slow factor.

Thanks for the reply Geko.

I understand how this was a "bug".
But look at the results:
- Medecine power now becomes a good choice.
- Players can finally hunt Eden, Crash Site, and non-Nemesis Peregrine with some kind of safeness.
- Effective stun resistance has become appreciated, sought after, and used.

Maybe, after this 60 sec -6 minute "blunder" you may want to re-evaluate giving it the a comparable duration has force-fields.

At launch, force fields lasted 2 minutes, and it just did not cut it. 4 minutes works fine.

How about 3.5 minutes for stim and 5 for clear mind and ID?

This is similar to the Increase Density issue. Not only is the buff shorter than Clear Mind, but it has the movement penalty.

It receives some resistance to smashing and energy but doesn't cover Sleep, which Clear mind does.

If the energy/smashing resistance is deemed to be better than Sleep resistance, then why does Increase Density have *two* other shortcomings (duration and movement penalty)?

It seems like the durations should be the same for the two powers and let the movement penalty offset whatever advantage Energy/Smashing vs Sleep is deemed to have.

I agree with you, Venarr, on all counts. You make some very significant and valid points, something that the developers would be wise to listen to.

Geko, I want to thank you for replying to this thread. I'd like to offer that you take what Venarr and others have written here into consideration when pathing out future changes.

I've been a big fan of the medicine power pool, and I certainly enjoyed being able to buff my teammates against the long, drawn out fights with status affecting enemies. Sometimes it didn't work, others it did, but it certainly made the game more enjoyable and stategic. I realize that the change made to stimulant was a bug, but the doors opened through the change don't seem like something that should be closed; I believe it's an opportunity to examine what might become of some of the hitherto abandoned game content that you would be wise look into. As those here have mentioned, perhaps the mistake and the subsequent enjoyment/use for zones such as the Rikti crash sites and other areas are a sign that further examination of status affects and status affect protection abilities is warranted.

As one of your costumers who has been very pleased with your product, I'd like it if you would be kind enough to look into that possibility. Thank you.

While my tank (who has Medicine) and no doubt everyone else would probably love to have Stim a several minute long duration, considering it's potency and that it could/can stack with other resistance powers, it would just make status effects a null point. As it is, Stim is either something you add on, something you free someone else from, or a small bonus to help with things. Apply early, apply often. Though I suppose I'm a little out of the norm perspective since I have it on my tank so I'm perfectly able of standing in the middle of a fight and use the power.

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it would just make status effects a null point

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Yup.
But the thing is, status effects is already a null point on a player's point of view: players just ignore it.
They find the best way to gain exp without even having to deal with it.
At first it was Rikti Monkeys, then Behemoth Portals, Nemesis, now the Synapse TF first 2 missions...

I am completely fine with having some buffs that makes status effect null. It still needs you to:
-assemble a group
-make sure the group has the appropriate powers
-apply these powers.

Right now, it's a lot more easier to:
- Fight mobs without status effect.

"Clear Mind" is not the only power that should be addressed with regards to Stimulant. There is also Increase Density (as mentioned above) and the buff effect of O2 Boost. These should all last the same duration.

Clear mind to make it superior you might want to give it a small recharge rate boost as well as the status effects.

Apply early is good. Apply often is okay too...but when that turns into 'restart application cycle every 33 seconds, alternating with other buffs' then it isn't a matter of strategy, it's a matter of unfun rote repetition. Stretch that out for an hour or two, repeat every time you play the game, and it starts to be a little bit frustrating.

If status effects didn't eat toggles, I probably wouldn't be worrying. I'm *not* going to avoid certain zones or enemy types or anything because they have status effects...defeats the whole point of playing the game to only hang out in the easiest zone farming the easiest mobs. I want to be somewhere scary trying new things and generally having fun. But if I have to spend most of my time there spamming status protection, that fun will eventually dissipate.

Just thought I'd add that Accelerate Metabolism also gives a resistance to sleep, hold, disorient, and immobilization. So that's yet another defender or controller type you can get for status protection.

As an Empath,I'm happy Clear Mind got a boost - and see why O2 and Density should get it too.

I would love if Fortitude and Clear Mind had the same duration. They I could apply both at once and move over to the next team member. This would make my life SO much easier - it is more a convenience/fun effect than a balance effect. I guess the same applies to my brthers/sisters with Kinetics.

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Just thought I'd add that Accelerate Metabolism also gives a resistance to sleep, hold, disorient, and immobilization. So that's yet another defender or controller type you can get for status protection.

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From my Tanker's experience, teaming with a friend with AM, it does not prevent me from getting effects. It does reduce the lenght. But, even if reduced to 1 second, it's enough to drop my 4 toggles (and die).

Why is it that status effects drop toggles? Is this not a strange, aberrant behaviour that seems completely out of place?

It would be one thing if you could just get them back when you come out of the status, but someone like my MA/SR scrapper has a LOT of buttons to push even after a fast sleep cycle (which cycles over and over and over when surrounded by 6 ink men!)

Agreed Venarr. The usage of these powers while someone is stunned is rare to none. By the time its noticed and applied, the hold/sleep/etc. is over. Which really only leaves it useful as a resistance. I'm not sure I'd go as far as 3 minutes yet, given how much it makes you resistant to these effects, but upping to 90 or 120 sec would be welcomed.

Most buffs in this game are way too short, IMO. Most things are 2 min or less. Ugh. Can we please have the average buff time upped to 10 or 20 min?

I can understand keeping powerful self buffs with negative ending effects short (e.g. - unstoppable, elude, etc). But for just your standard run of the mill variety buff (clear mind, fortitude, practiced brawler, etc), a longer lasting buff would be a real nice thing.

I'm not asking for the 1-2 hour long game breaking buffs of EQ (KEI anyone?). But a 10-20 min timer would be so much better than a 2 min timer and not overpowering at all. Heck, increase the endurance to compensate even.

JM

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it used to be 20 seconds. I meant to change it to 60 seconds, but accidently made it like 600 or something. That made it 5 times better than the Defender Clear Mind power. Clear mind was 60 seononds, and it is now 90 seconds. Stimulant must not be as good as clear mind.

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90 seconds?
Really?
Hmm.

So if I cast Clear Mind before a fight as a buff, it might actually work now? That is exciting.
For the last 6 months it's served as a mere curative.

Geko,
It already is far worse than Clear Mind. It is interruptible, the casting time is long, you can't move while using it, and the range is very poor. It is next-to-impossible to use during combat, and its long duration is the only thing that made this power useful. 1 minute duration is an over-nerf, and absolutely cancels out the usefulness of this power. Up the duration, even to 2 minutes, and it will be fine. I understand that you need Clear Mind, etc. to be powerful, and if you look at all of the negatives of Stimulant, you'll see that it is. Power Pool powers should not be terrible, and yes, certainly should be less powerful than similar Primary/Secondary powers, but this change ruins this power.

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Geko, what about the duration of Inertial Reduction? I don't have it on my Kin defender yet but I hear it's pretty short as well. It seems it should be boosted as well, especially considering the slow factor.

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Don't worry about it - IR is awesome. The duration is pretty short, yes, but it's exactly the same as the recharge. As long as you either put it on auto to travel or queue up the next instance every time it goes off, you shouldn't have any worries. Further, it's faster than pool Super Jump.

Lengthening the duration of stimulant is a very bad idea. All that will happen, if this is done, is that all the people with access wo two account will park thier stim bot in the zone they are working in and pay them a visit every stimduration-1minutes.

As it stands now, the duration is LONGER than a force fielders bubble duration of 2 minutes, and substantially longer than clear mind. I understand the desire to solo in this game, but if you need status protection (i.e. not a scrapper or tanker) your best bet is to bring a defender along. At level 42 in PI I see them standing around all the time looking for a group: scrappers outgrow the need for them at level 28; the non fire and ice tanks don't need them for status protection after 28; and the glass cannon blasters try to avoid having them in a team and cite a "drop in experience per hour" as the reason.

What you propose will lead to the reduction of defenders that will get to join teams--This is a game breaker.