hemmingway3

I can agree with that.

I accept your proposal, but fully expect that someone else will do most of the work.

You just don't get it. We were asked what we want. We said "We want HD and TS gone. Here's why." The "here's why" part contained sound logic and reasoning. If you cannot see that, you just don't know what those things are. Of course I am personally campaigning to have HD and TS removed. When I initially encountered them, I hated them. The more I thought about it, the more I understood precisely why that was so. I have individually constructed my own opinions based upon fact, and I have seen, agreed, disagreed, and commented on the opinions and arguments of others. There are many reasons HD and TS should be removed. Some are personal preference, some are simple logical contradictions they present when implemented into CoH. These ideas have been articulated several times in this thread and many more times in other ways and other threads. Some people would prefer to have HD and TS remain in the game for various reasons: some because they do not want to see more change in this game (maybe it makes them uncomfortable, maybe they don't want to respec), some because they honestly believe that HD and TS are sensible mechanics that are healthy to this game's PvP. There have been many convincing arguments given to disprove either thesis that HD and TS are sensible or healthy to this game. The fact that you refuse to see the logic in these arguments only implies that you are stubborn or trolling. It does not imply the the logic is not there or that it is flawed.

Lastly, if this is not a two-sided debate, why are you posting in my thread? I mean.. really.. Players that want HD and TS to remain don't have any reason to post here, yet you continually post here to oppose the removal of HD and TS? You need to actually understand logic before you can use it to be persuasive. I don't know whom you think you are convincing with your posts, but in reality they are only serving to clutter this thread.

I disagree that Arena and Zone should follow a different rule-set. They should and do have the same default rules, only Arena is more customizable. This is as it should be; only, the default includes the poorly developed mechanics that are Diminishing Returns, Inherent Resistances, Travel Suppression, and Heal Decay. It is true that arena is much more structured, and zone is more impromptu. It is possible to survive a spike in zone, sure. Yet, if you are in no-phase and/or the spiking enemies have 2 or more targeting you, it is needlessly difficult to escape. Even one or two ranged enemies can permanently keep you in Travel Suppression. TS is surely not a requirement to stop hit-and-run game-play. Movement slows, holds, and immobilizes are just 3 mechanics that stop the running part of that. The problem with that is, those mechanics were nerfed into the ground to make room for the clunky beast that is Travel Suppression.

This next thing that you said, I want to isolate: "It forces you to stay in an engagement." You're right. It does force you to stay in an engagement. That just sucks. Do you mean to tell me that the developers can not think of a reason you should want to stay in an engagement? That is certainly the case, however sad it is. There is not much point to stay in an engagement where one risks their own death in this game. The only ones that come to mind are the thrill of defeating your opponent just before you are defeated.... or trolling. As a team and class-based game, should there not be an objective that opposing sides fight for? One should think so. Yet, what we get is pillboxes in Recluse's Victory. What's the point in capturing them? Certainly you can role-play the fight to control the future of Paragon City, but what happens when you win? Nothing. You can get some prestige or some reputation, or maybe a crappy summon temp-power. Who really cares about those rewards? None of them have much worth. Granted, the developers could give them worth, but that would be an entirely different endeavor. What I mean to say with this paragraph is that if the developers want us to commit to engagements in PvP rather than simply run from a loss, they need to provide a reason to do so, not force it upon us because: "We said so!"

You say that "TS give you the chance to retaliate." and "it supports the solo player." Yet, this is not always the case. A ranged can still kite a melee. Only, it happens at a much slower pace. Why should a melee be slowed by a ranged attack that does not have a slowing effect? Similarly, why should a ranged player be slowed by a melee's APP ranged attack? It doesn't make sense. It used to be: If you invest into speed, then you are fast. Now it is: If you invest into speed and then do (almost) anything, you are very slow. It makes sense that if you arrange your build to be a fast moving character that you are a fast moving character. With the introduction of Diminishing Returns, making a build to be very fast became a somewhat difficult goal. On top of that, Travel Suppression means that all of that travel speed is nullified by things that are not even remotely meant to slow you. I am fine with the idea that building for the travel cap is a difficult goal; however, I am not fine with the idea that you put all the work into a build only for it to be nullified by the nonsensical game mechanic of Travel Suppression. Nor should I be okay with that. It is contradictory to the nature of this game, and it is offensive to the players that like the nature of this game. I and many others along with me love the fast game-play afforded by the basis of this game and the travel powers that do much to make one's character feel "super."

Now, one should not have to be a super-fast, ranged character to feel "super." One should be able to make a monolith of a character, a metaphorical mountain, who is immovable, unable to be defeated by physical assault. This kind of character does exist. I have seen many tankers in RV who can literally stand still and take the assault of 10 or more villains without appearing to take any harm. Yet, what does one do with such a character? Surely they must be able to be defeated; a team full of blasters and debuffers can bring such a tank down. This kind of role has no purpose in CoH PvP, as it stands. There is nothing for them to defend, no ground for them to stand, no line of defenders for them to break. Instead, all we have is Death Match. Arena is all about kill counts. Zone typically becomes all about pushing to one side of the zone and spawn camping. That is the problem that needs to be addressed. We don't need the pace of game-play to be slowed down; we need a reason to not always be doing one of two: running or blasting.

Moving right on down the line... You are correct, removing TS and HD will not fix the problem. It would only serve to remove one of the many problems from which this game's PvP suffers. Heal Decay only makes a healer feel bored of the tedium of counting down the HD timer or helpless in that they cannot save their teammates. TS only slows down the pace of the game as a whole. It does not give an advantage to those who need it. As has been said, the biggest advantage TS gives is to full teams of ranged characters preying on individual enemies. I do not agree that their removal would "only complicate things;" I think it would help bring the game's pace back up to the level many wish that it were on. It will also make healers feel like they are fulfilling their role again. I do think that heals are exploitable, but Heal Decay is even more exploitable. We do need a wholesome fix, but all this development team gives are band-aid fixes. Removing HD and TS would be the simplest and largest positive-impacting change that could be made with the amount of time they are willing to give to PvP. Lastly, I think more people want to see HD and TS gone than you think. They are just not fun. They add more complexity and confusion than they are worth. They don't even solve the problems they were meant to solve. They need to go.


/essay

Valid, sound, and logical reasons have been provided for the past several years to support the removal of TS and HD. They were provided in i13 beta, after i13 release, and every time after that when someone saw fit to discuss the topic. That includes this thread. Further, in order to fully answer the question posed by Zwillinger, reasons why TS and HD should not be removed do have to be provided. If they are not provided but do exist, the community's interests may not be fully represented by the Community team. If they are not provided because they do not exist, then the only issue is that the Devs haven't removed those mechanics yet. It doesn't matter if opinions and personal preferences provide logical proof because arguments have been made based upon fact and sound reasoning already.

Savvy?

You think that because someone understands something, they are happy with it. I understand this game quite well, and I am not happy with it. I do not seek to change it to better my fortune when it comes to fighting others. Similarly, American politicians understand the American political system, but many of them hate it. Just because one is willing to do what it takes to succeed does not mean they like doing such things.

The people in this thread that have argued for the removal of HD and TS are generally those that understand the system best and are the most capable of abusing it. That sentence alone is a contradiction to your hypothesis.

8+8+8 v WARE

Are you about it?