docbuzzard

Actually 3rd edition is effectively out already in the DC Adventures book. I picked that up a couple of weeks ago and the rules were completely different from 2nd Edition M&M.

As for the generic business, yes it would be extremely generic. However that's how you can make balance work (IMO). Beyond basic mechanics of how things work, and those should be independent of color, everything should be changeable.

A laser should be a lightning gun, should be a heat beam and whatnot. You just add in special effects later. This allows you to get the balance right up front, and then start filling in color later without screwing up the balance.

I suppose the twinks in all of us (and I min max like a madman) won't like it, but it (again IMO) makes for a better system. You don't end up with RIFTS like abominations.

I wonder if Mutants and Masterminds could be used? It's a very flexible system, and is pretty generic when it comes to basics. The mutations are a lot like super powers ultimately.

Considering George Patton competed in the Modern Pentathlon, calling the competitors 'posh girls' seems a bit off base.

You could very well be right. I've never been a fan of psionics in D&D so at best I'd give the books a cursory look.

I always though the 3.0 version was weak. The 3.5 version cranked it up a lot.

This is what you are talking about(all from 3.5 SRD):
Hide in Plain Sight (Su)

A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.



What I was talking about was :


Sniping

If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a -20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot.



Though I suppose this is relevant:


It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.


So in theory, you can hide while attacking at a -20. I have to wonder if there's rules call on this via a vis multiple attacks.

Oh you mean like RIFTS. I don't think I know a soul that plays that game who doesn't think the rules are a horrible kludge that needs to be updated, but they refuse to do it (to avoid facing fans who don't want to deal with an update). Instead they do minor revisions, and ram new rules into obscure places in new books. Honestly it's a horrible waste of a good setting.

I'd say sort of. He's not got the spells per day limitation of a 3.5 wizard. In some ways he's more and some ways less. He's also completely at the mercy of the current writer so can be well above that (or below it). Superheroes are very hard to quantify if you don't use published stats for comparison.

No you don't, and I don't even vaguely understand why you'd think it necessary for someone who plays their game.

No, it's not like an MMO. You can always use the old version. Nobody is coming into your house and making your old books not work. Unless you are really into the living campaigns (LFR), you don't need the latest gee gaw to play the game(and even in those you can probably get by with the original core even if you might be a bit underpowered). I can't even imagine new modules really require it all. Your personal need for the new shiny may drive this, but they were merely trying to milk that which is what they should do to make money. Your self control is your own issue.

If you don't like how they do business, don't do business with them. You don't need to complain about it if other people happen to like it.

(which is not to say I buy WotC product anymore either, but I don't begrudge them their business model, and I have plenty of friends who like 4th Ed).

I'm not here to do an edition war. You can find plenty of places and people to do that with. Go find them.

Yes, this is true, and it was a move I didn't much care for from WotC. Then again I play Pathfinder (pure OGL) so I don't really care. I have a choice and I exercise it.

Did your memory drop out the flood of hardcovers and splatbooks put out by TSR for 2nd Edition?

Hell, I was waiting for The Complete Commoners Handbook, since it was bound to show up at some time. I've got a shelf of 2nd edition books, and I was nowhere near complete by any stretch of the imagination.

Not to mention the "Oh, we're playing in world X, so all your stuff doesn't wash. Go but the World X Monster Manual, and the players guide to World X. "

TSR was by no means pure. They didn't have the financial backing to do quite the throughput of books as WotC (Hasbro), but they certainly did their damnest, and it drove them into the ground as they tried to peddle so much crap that warehouses were full of garbage splatbooks and junk novels that nobody wanted to buy.

I do find it odd that people get worked up over more choices. You don't want to buy the new books? Then don't. Nobody has a gun to your head. Hell, most people at my gaming table never bought books past 3.0 for a long time. My current group is a bit more into gaming so most have the Pathfinder book (which isn't needed since it's all online anyway).

As for the 'obsolete next year' stuff, well you complain about the OGL and yet complain about obsolescence? Those are mutually exclusive claims. With the OGL people can put out 3rd edition stuff until people stop buying it.

But I would like to know how you expect a business to survive without pushing product. If WotC doesn't make new product to sell, there won't be a company soon enough.

Is this analysis based on just the initial books or does it include all the expansions? I've not gotten the extra books, but from what all the players and DMs tell me, min maxing is alive and well with the expansion books.

I agree that with just the PHB, the classes are pretty well balanced at the expense of being very similar.

I know you're kidding, but good lord TSR under Lorraine Williams was a complete nightmare. I'll take WotC over her management any day of the week.

Ok, I have read the 4th edition rules, and know a lot of people who do play it. You can sure as hell min/max just like in every previous edition. This is especially true with the utter plethora of books that WotC has been pouring into the market.

Not that we need to play D&D rules, here, but this really isn't that powerful. As soon as you attack, you are visible and have to re-hide at -20 on the check (which is a move equivalent action, so you can only attack once per round at that). It's the snipe rules.

I did leverage this sort of thing in a local convention campaign we had here called Cheesy Munchkin Adventures. This was a 3.0/3.5/D20 campaign in which you were supposed to mangle the spirit of the law with the letter of the law. Pretty much anything from any respectable D20 source (and the Munchkin books, which were by no means respectable) was allowed.

I cheesed up a gnome shadowcraft mage with hide in plain site, and enough hide that he was completely undetectable. Since he was a spell caster (and shadowcraft mage gives you silent spell automatically eventually) he didn't have to play the snipe game and could rock people's worlds without anyone ever knowing he was there.

The campaign was taken to a reset point where the 20th level characters have a faceoff and all the cheese was allowed to fly. My guy was able to survive, but by no means was he able to defeat the more cheesed out people. I couldn't even scratch those.

This makes for a large dichotomy in power. As of third edition is was clearly understood that to achieve some semblance of balance across classes, a certain value of magic items was to be assumed. Otherwise you end up with the spell casting classes in the roles of the seeing in the land of the blind. Their advantage is monumental. I mean take a simple example of a wizard with fly, protection from arrows, and fireball (don't even need improved invisibility) and he could slaughter an army in complete safety (till the spells ran out of course).

Probably the main difference in D&D vs. superheroes is the limited 'charges'. The powerful classes in D&D are the spell casters and they have a limited amount of boom in their arsenal before they run dry. At high levels they are nigh unstoppable, for a little while at least. A high level fighter can do his work all day (as long as his HPs hold up), but without magical equipment and buffing, he's nowhere near the power level of the casters.

In addition to the 'charges' you have the more limited duration of the spells once fired off. Time stop effectively makes you a lot like the Flash, but not for very long. Fly, well that's obvious, but only for a little while (though overland flight is eventually available). Shape Change is plenty powerful but again, only for a little while.

Heck, you even have 'cosmic' level effects in Wish and Miracle, but again with certain limitations and number of uses in a day.

In truth, high level D&D spellcasters(and psionicists) are certainly super by any measure. It's just a different kind of super. They are like super scientist inventors who's gadgets have limited battery life.