dave_p

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Without dot Fire would be a very pedestrian set. Bested easily in damage by ice and psy. And probably right in there with arch and eng. But of course with no mitigation whatsoever.

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I know we're mostly talking about ST DPS here, but I think statements like that might be taken the wrong way for ppl skipping ahead. Fire still kicks Ice & Psy's butts for AoE. Even w/o the DoT, I think Fire would be almost balanced w/the other sets (that have more mitigation/utility) considering its ST & AoE potential (and remember, you'll likely only need 2 of the T1~3 blasts if you combine w/your secondary, so you can just drop FBlast). Of course, that means w/DoT, Fire is... um, perfectly balanced. Yeah, that's the ticket.

I know it wasn't part of the OP's requirements, but that's just a horrible lack of AoE offense (other than BA). WH's isn't much, but it's a whole lot better than nothing, not to mention the lack of epics. YMMV and all that.

Nor do most of the controllers. Blasters will likely need to use insps, though there are those who can do w/o, but just popping an Aid Self for the odd hit (assuming you're def capped) will seriously slow down your kill rate.

DPE is far more normalized for the various sets, except that Fire once again pulls way ahead. Archery is also higher (bit over 20%) than most, since that's one of its perks, but Fire is still tops for DPE (bit over 40%). W/a few exceptions here & there, almost all the T1, 2 & 3 blasts and even snipes are normalized to have the same DPE. A few exeptions are Burst (high), Scream (high) BiB (low) and Power Burst (high), but none of these are significant like pretty much all of Arch or especially Fire.

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Yeah, I'll be sticking with mine, lol.

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Yeah, that was an... interesting build. I certainly hope it was just for concept.

My Stony used to have around 52MPH out of Granite/Rooted (w/Sprint on), good in Granite alone, decent in Rooted alone, still sucktastic in both. My latest incarnation is down quite a bit, but I wanted to get my defenses up out of Granite.

Haven't seen any blaster times better than 4:19. Have seen a few Fire/Rad's (controller) beat that. Still wanna see a Fire/Kin or /Storm post some times. Or a Fire/MM (since DP has -regen) or Fire/Elec (for sheer DPS) blaster.

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I would never suggest maneuvers on anything but a taunt bot (which a Fire Tanker shouldn't be aspiring to ... there are better primaries for that purpose). Waste of endurance for little return.

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You don't have to run it unless you need to actually get to cap, but when you do, there's a decent difference bet. 41.5% and 45% defense. It's also a good mule for the LotG set and I don't have end problems w/my Fire tank even w/o Consume so I actually end up running it all the time (helps all my teammates a tiny amount too), but in principle, you should prolly shut it off most of the time. Sure, you'll be a bit more effective if you take Hasten and settle for "merely" 40% def, but if you happen to need/want that last few points, or simply can't afford the 3 power slots for Weave, Maneuvers isn't a bad option, even for a tank (or scrapper).

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Also you may find that raising positional defenses is easier then raising typed defenses via IOs ... especially on a Fire Tanker

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I usually do positional, but I found the S/L cap easier to hit, and more effective on my resist-based tanks. It's not like you can do all 3 positions on Fire w/o *seriously* gimping stuff (not even sure if it's possible), and I'd rather have the S/L def for the ranged/AoE attacks w/S/L components. Melee almost always has an S/L component, so the typed def takes care of that already. Again, this is very weak to psi, but against almost everything else, I find it a really good mix. I do the same on my Stone (out of Granite,) & WP tanks and plan on doing the same w/my Dark, and w/psi mitigation built into them, it works out great (should for Dark too). Shields is positional, obviously.

On my Invul (planned) build, I don't bother w/ S/L def since he's gonna have capped S/L resists, but went for high exotic typed and ranged positional def, but that's using Invinc. That's planned only so I'll have to see how that works out in practice, though I suspect really well, though the untyped psi will likely suck. My Elec will prolly cap S/L.

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(there are no good typed defense prime IOs for PBAOEs).

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Lockdowns, BotZ, there are a few others, but yeah, AoE def is kinda hard to come by. My strategy is Ranged 1st (cap it), AoE 2nd for my "squishies", but my melee toons really depend on their powerset.

Edit: I may have misread what you wrote. Did you mean there are no good typed for exotics? If so, sure, but again, most things have S/L components (except psi--psi just sucks for Fire & Invul). See a few paragraphs up.

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Also considering that Kinetic Combats are not only expensive ... but literally don't exist right now at WWs (as of last night there wasn't one recipe for sale).

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I bought up a ton of KCs way back, but the triple & D/E prices are out of control, and steadily going up. I'm hoping some hungry farmer takes it as an opportunity for some profits sometime soon.

Ah, I see what you mean now. Great, there are a lot of those that work that way, aren't there? At least I did my nuke calcs right (.75 for the 1st, .5 for the 2nd, etc)...

My Fire/EM has 45% S/L def and as high resists are Fire usually gets (70-ish S/L, capped Fire, etc). Does really well, except against Psi. As someone else mentioned, Oblits in your PBAoEs, Reactives in your armors, Tough, Weave, CJ and *Maneuvers* to put you to cap. Slot some BotZs for the -KB and pick up some ranged def while you're at it (no, you won't cap your positionals). Kinetic Combats, not Makos, in your melee attacks though (and those prices have really gone through the roof lately). You need to sacrifice Hasten for this build, but otherwise, it's not too gimped elsewhere. Sorry, but I don't post builds any more, though you might be able to find one I posted in an older thread that just won't die. If you post your own attempt, I'll be happy to critique.

Are you talking about damage scales? I just use base numbers at 50. For blaze, my damage is 132.63 + (0.8 * (5 * 14.08)), so an 80% chance for the DoT (5 ticks of 14.08) to land.

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Your Fire Blast numbers are high since you are not properly adding the DoT of Fire and are overestimating its effect. For example, you have Blaze base average damage listed on your charts as 188.9, when the average should be 170.5.

See here for calculating DoT of Fire Blast DoTs

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This. Don't always trust mid's for complex calculations. Or just use the in-game numbers they seem accurate.

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I actually changed all of those numbers on my personal Mids' database to account for proper DoT calc.

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Yeah, I use CoD numbers including all % for the fire DoTs. Mids' is close, but misses the mark on occasion.

Um, you seem to be quoting me, but I said nothing to the sort. In fact, I like my Elec brute.

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Frostworks however is awful and unnecessary even for defenders and corruptors. Since Controllers bring far more damage mitigation naturally than Corruptors then you won't ever be needing frostworks.

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While I agree with you, FW is marginally more useful to controllers who solo, since then they can at least use it & the shields on their pet(s). No, I'll never be taking this power myself (tried it a bit on my Defender--was pretty useless).

My point is that double stacking CP does nothing more than single stacking it--you already get infinite end w/just getting it perma. Unless you think the devs are just afraid of the phrase "double stacking" which... wouldn't particularly surprise me.

CP (or PS) is a bad way to get auto-firing farm builds since you need to auto fire the attack, unless you're just doing it w/auras, in which case you don't even need CP (or PS). Hell, I can auto-fire FS now on my tank and never run out of end, if that's all you're doing.

Short Circuit would be hella cool--hope you're right about that. A self-heal would really take the set over the edge for high-end IO builds, though it might help the SO-build be survivable.

Why would double stacking CP be any more powerful than just having it perma? Or just having it & PS? Once you have all the end you can ever use, more end recovery (well, halving usage in this case) is just wasted. I hope you're right though and it's "not allowed" since I don't want it in the first place.

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And Scorch is in no way a weak pick, one of the highest DPS chains for Fire include Scorch, just ask in the scrapper forums.

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Incin > Scorch > Cremate > Scorch is an excellent, cheap chain. You need some decent recharge bonuses to get above that, though you can. I would not give up Scorch or Cremate for my scrapper, though I'd trade GFS for Combustion (w/the above combo, FS & GFS are wasted, though both are useful for the higher DPS chains). I'd sure as hell give up Breath for Combustion.

Re: CP - considering you pick it up at 18, it's not even going to be slotted w/SOs (or equivalent IOs) til 22 which means your downtime is far too high for it to matter much before you pick up PS anyway, and thus make it superflous. Even if you were planning a respec build, I'd just take Stamina and spec out of that, not CP, after PS. Considering how much I like Hurdle & Health, I'll likely take Stamina anyway, though I may push it later into the build on a respec.

As for fitting in Med pool, you can sorta skate by w/o Hasten, since you get Lightning Reflexes. My plan would be for Fitness, Leaping, Med & Fighting, though I'll have to see if I need Maneuvers to hit any def caps (in which case I'd prolly drop... Fitness ).

Infridge can be skipped... except you'll be forced into it as a Controller.

Frostworks can really be skipped... unless you want to make uber pets.

Snow Storm, I think, can be skipped... unless you're having problems w/fliers, like Plant, or have no/few slows in your primary.

Really, that's about it. And that ain't much.

Not getting Sleet & Heat Loss til 35 & 38 are kinda painful now that I think about it.

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I don't like electric armor on a brute, as it's not as survivable as I would like, but with tank numbers, it rocks.

I'd put together a WM/elec brute build with 40%+ melee defence which would be soft capped on tanker numbers and throw in 80%+ resists to S/L/E, you're in pretty good shape.

I agree it would be a complete turkey on SOs.

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Yeah, this is exactly what I'm thinking. There's a *huge* difference bet. 60-ish resists and 80, which is what going from Brutes to Tanks gets you. Yes, you need (really want) Tough, so what? Most tanks do. If you take AS and get your defense up through IOs (really easy to do these days), I really think Elec will be one of the tougher sets out there. Yeah, those are a lot of ifs, but it's got potential, if you're willing to plan & spend a bit.

I do agree that CP is worthless for the set (hell, I can prolly do w/o PS, but again, that's very IOed out). If they do introduce a self-heal in its place, Elec is going to absolutely own.

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Wait till you play it. Brutes don't shun it for no reason

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Actually, I sorta liked my Elec brute, but never got too high w/him. Scrappers are dissing its prospects too, but their resists cap lower than Tanks, and again, I fully intend to also cap my defenses.

I'm thinking an SO-only Elec tank will prolly be about as useful as an SO-only Fire tank, maybe a little more. My Fire tank w/capped S/L def still gets his butt kicked by psi, but is pretty awesome elsewhere. Just getting rid of that hole (have I also mentioned the end drain resistance?) is enough for me to try out Elec on tanks.

That thread got a bit too long winded for me. I was going to mention in there that against AVs, a ET > BS > TF > BS might get you killed from the additional ET self-damage.

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Basically Fire Tanker levels.

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higher actually.

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Yeah, I get (assuming ED capped slotting):

S 80 (w/Tough)
L 80 (w/Tough)
F 56
C 56
E 90
N 48
T 0
P 56

Toxic isn't the problem on blue side that it is on red, but still hurts. Otherwise, Elec is looking way better. You give up on the Heal (Aid Self!), but get Psi, En over Fire, better Cold, way better debuff resists, KB & Immob protections, pretty much infinite end, better recharge and a T9 I'd actually consider using. Of course, you need to take like all your powers too which makes the secondary paring tougher.

Fire gives you Burn, HF & FE that I'd miss, but not all that much to be honest (except for HF). Not even close, if you ask me. Dark otoh is a tough choice--better Psi, Neg & Toxic, worse S/L/E/F/C and a huge heal.

I'm picturing my Elec/Elec tank w/capped defenses. Not sure which just yet (prolly S/L), but I'll cap something. Aid Self will be very optional (tho I'll likely still take it).

Unfortunately, I have a rule about not repeating powersets within ATs, so I'm SoL for Fire, Ice, Ill, Earth & Plant. Grav/Cold or Mind/Cold doesn't really do anything for me. Maybe I'll reroll my Plant/Thermal as Plant/Cold? I'm not that sold on Thermal and Snow Storm would help w/the fliers.

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EDIT, and as a disclaimer: Stone/Ice isn't a bad combination, per se. It's just godawful slow for the first 37 levels (38, really, until you have FA slotted). I'm perfectly aware of what that combination can do, but the combination of the turd shoes of Rooted and the low-ish damage of Ice Melee until 38 would be enough to drive most people crazy.

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I'm sorry, but I disagree with even that. Pots and Frost alone make Stone/Ice a far more damaging (AoE-wise) tanker combo than many, many other combos on their way to 38. What exactly does */SS do before 38? Rage + KO Blow will only get you so far. What about Axe & Mace before the two cones at the end? We agree on EM--what about Stone? Tremor hitting 10 mobs does less overall damage (DPA-wise) than Frost hitting 5 (Whirling Axe/Mace/Hands are almost as bad, though not quite), and Frost recharges faster and costs less end. Then, how about primaries w/no damage aura (excepting Shields)? If it's your contention that Stone/Ice is a painful climb to 38, I would say you'd feel the same or worse about far more than half the tanker combinations out there.

If it were your sole complaint about the slowness of Stone, esp Rooted, before IO'ing your speed back up, I'd say you have a point, though it would apply to all Stone/* tanks. Personally, I think the -movement penalty of Rooted should be halved, even if it meant adding more -speed to Granite. However, since you mention things picking up at 38 & FA, I have to think you're focusing more on the damage aspect of the power combo, so again, I disagree.

As for your seeming confidence at building tanks (or whatever), if you thought that your Stone/Ice was bad enough to delete at 35 or 36 (seriously, you couldn't wait 2-3 more levels?), I can only surmise that you either 1) did it wrong, i.e. no/underslotted Frost, Frozen Touch for holds--not damage, not slotting Pots for damage, not enough +speed IOs, etc, or 2) haven't played enough other tanker combinations to see how painful some of them are for damage pre-38 (sometimes pre-35). I'm not sure how you intended people who don't know you from Adam to interpret your initial comments on this subject otherwise.

As for Ice Melee vs. SS's AoEs, of coruse Rage puts SS on top (duh), but just. See Stars' latest charts for a comparison.

My own Edit & Disclaimer: I should point out, I would never have accused you of dispensing bad advice in the first place if you hadn't actually come out and said to reroll. If you just said that you had a bad experience with Stone/Ice, you weren't happy w/the combo, etc, I prolly would've left it alone. Then again, statements like:

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I realized exactly how bad that combo is

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...might have gotten a similar reaction out of me anyway. *shrugs*

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Sooo...was trying to plan out a good DPS chain with it.

To my understanding, that usually required use of ET and TF, but I have no idea now. :/

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Too many variables, esp your recharge, but...

<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>
EM Dam Act Rech End DPE DPA
Barrage 58.72 1.33 6 6.864 8.55 37.07
EP 44.49 0.83 4 5.2 8.56 42.13
BS 72.96 1.5 8 8.528 8.56 42.52
WH 44.49 2.5 14 13 3.42 16.85
Stun 11.12 1.8 20 10.192 1.09 5.62
ET 202.87 2.67 20 10.192 19.90 69.86
TF 158.38 3.3 20 18.512 8.56 46.15
</pre><hr />

Note, DPA includes Arcanatime, but the Act times do not (calcs are adjusted), so if calculating recharge rates, make sure you adjust all the Act times. Start with that and build your own chain based on the highest DPA attacks and how fast you can fit them in. Of course, this will likely result in a lot of "wasted" damage, but that's another story.

Depending on your recharge, your chain might look something like:

ET &gt; EP &gt; BS &gt; EP &gt; TF &gt; EP &gt; BS &gt; EP &gt; repeat.

Not sure what sort of recharge it would take, but...

ET &gt; BS &gt; TF &gt; BS would be EM's "best" chain, I think. I don't think you can ever do ET &gt; TF &gt; BS, and if you could, it could very well kill you if your regen wasn't very high.

Honestly, though, the DPA values bet. EP, BS &amp; TF aren't large enough for me to care about them, and DPE is identical (and considering "wasted" damage, EP is the most efficient). I just use ET when it's up, EP as filler and use an epic like Fire Blast and skip BS entirely. TF is usually saved for when I wanna stun something.