coffee_EU

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I THINK he's asking what the CoV uber PvP AT is

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Bah! That's easy. Whichever you make "über". 1 on 1 will never be fully balanced. One single patch may make or break an entire AT for a few months (until Devs subtly change it back or players adapt).

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tell meeeee!!!??? plx

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Are you pulling our legs here?

This post looks like it would be one of the more intelligent ones at the WoW forum (yeah, I'm bad-mouth WoW).

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Jab isnt instant high damage, seeing to the instant high damage attacks would come first, over next 9 lvls it maybe worth adding damage slots to it, mine has 3.

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As it's a vital part of any attack chain, IMHO, has a chance to Disorient and you have to pick it up (and in most cases can spare the slots) I think it's worth at least slotting up for 1 Acc, 3 Dam.

All up to one's own, but I went this route for my SS Tanker instead of having to Pick up Punch as well as Air Superiority, seeing how Air Superiority deals exactly the same damage as Punch, but with a -Fly and a nice Knockdown animation on top of that.

I'm pretty much alone in this thinking it seems, many people neglect Jab for it's Minor Damage. I find it excellent for keeping up Punch-voke and the Damage racks up over Time.

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Fire and AR aren't really all that different. Both do damage, both have a lot of AoE attacks and neither have any great special abilities. But Fire does more damage, earlier, faster, over a greater area and requires less endurance to boot.

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Yeah, except that Burst and Slug are awesome Single Target Attacks, even while doing Lethal damage.

Buckshot and M30 is indeed skipable, but for the early game I would at least pick up M30.

Sniper at 10.

At 18 is when AR really comes into play. A medium ranged cone, and at level 32 a re-occuring usable attak. 60 second Recharge though, but compared to each and every other level 32 power in the corruptor line this is damn good.

I've mentioned all of this in this thread I think. AR really isn't that bad, it's just a late bloomer.

AR also has another upside, both Burst and Slug has relatively long range (90 and 95). It's been suggested by some to slot it by range enhancers. This will effectively get them very close to Sniper Rifle's range. As we all now, there aren't anything called safe range in this game, but AR comes close...

Fire gets all their main tools by level 8.

Also, there's whole lot tactics involved with using Traps I presume (just like with Devices in the Blaster line). Teleporting enemies into traps, etc, etc. Again, it's a different kind of game. AR/Traps obviously wasn't for you, that's it. None of the sets are totally gimped even though I don't like the look of Traps

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Firstly, sorry for going off on one I really need to wind down before I shoot my mouth off.

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No real need to apologize, I guess I wasn't going too easy myself. Also, my giant, inflatable ego doesn't go *pooof* that easily

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I was comparing the two powers directly but the problem lies in that area attacks don't tend to be needed more than a few times, and with Flamebreaths initial kicker it will always do better than the straight damage/recharge time would suggest.

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Very true indeed. I'm not saying my idea of measuring was in any way practical. I just compared the two power, trying to show that Buckshot in a way is more efficient than Fire Breath. However, the practical use differs. For instance, an AoE build attracts aggro. You want as much front-loaded damage as possible, not the most effective damage over time.

And, as far as power choice go, I can see why AR/Traps gets a little bit ripped off. Some powers in the Traps set just doesn't look attractive at all too me.

Oh, and regarding those four powers:
- Burst (Level 1)
- Slug (Level 2)
- Web Grenade (Level 1)
- Caltrops. (Level 4)

Caltrops is pretty nice acctually, and can be exploited for some extra DoT. After that it's just dipping into power pools for all it's worth then.

Fire and AR is so fundamentally different. The equivalent of Fire Breath comes by later, Flame Thrower. I'm not really fond of this thing we got started here; comparing individual powersets. Mainly because of the fact that you should pick a set out of Concept, Function and Fun. If you can fit in Fire, Think it's Fun and want some early, good AoEs and Cones it's what you should pick.

If you want an Assault Rifle, shine later on, and attack things with some solid cones from a distance it's what you pick.

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You're poor theory does perhaps hint how the developers could have made such egregious miscalculations about the effectiveness of AR.

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Say what? My numbers where based on comparing one attack to another.

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Firstly you should start every fight with all your powers charged. If you get to fire and reload Flamebreath then you would immediately fire it again. Buckshot would get get 3 attacks to Flamebreaths 2 giving it a rather derisory 7.5999 damage to Flamebreaths 9.75. In terms of endurance both would clock in at 30. In ideal circumstances and at those numbers Buckshot could occasionally level and with a lucky Scourge even slightly exceed Flamebreaths but far too rarely to make it useful. Don't forget in optimal circumstances where the enemy is defeated by the first wave of attacks Flamebreath does 4.875 to Buckshots 2.5333.

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Again, my calculations was to compare one attack with another.

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Also any slack jawed idiot knows it's better to do damage than not. Refusing to use Flamebreath on a single enemy because of inefficient recharge rates is a bit baffling, particularly if you aren't expecting to meet a group in the next 16 seconds.

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Of course, but as far as theory goes I'm not sure saying that Slug is a worse single target attack than Fire Breath is correct. Mainly because of endurance cost and recharge.

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Lastly the figures you've quoted seem to be wrong or out of date. Whenever I've used it, even unslotted Slug has always done significantly more than twice the damage of Buckshot, and has always recharged significantly faster. However since then I've neglected Buckshot so hard numbers would take some time and expense to work out.

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Well, to prove myself right, I just went in-game and tried out an even-level minion (well a few, acctually) (Level 2 Arachnos Wolf Spider)

Brawl: 3.65 Damage (Smashing)
Unslotted Slug vs. Even-level Minion.: 16.67 Damage
Unslotted Buckshot vs. Even-Level Minion: 9.25 Damage

Slug deals rougly 4.56 times the damage of Brawl (rounding down, as numbers are exact, they don't go up). Buckshot deals 2.53.

Whoops, those numbers were correct.

Recharge (timed and clocked): 8 Seconds, this kicks in after the ~2 second animation (as it should be, btw).

Seems I wasn't too far off then.

Edited in: Ah, I see you caught the whole post now. Well, I agree that Buckshot is indeed sub-par damage. But no matter how you see it, a cone is a cone. If you want a multiple target build even in the very early game, Buckshot and M30 is all you have.

You can toss them out in a Respec (you should, M30 clashes big time with Flamethrower). Since many corruptors carry their own Buffs and DeBuffs you can boost your own damage up quite nicely, of course it will still be a lot worse than (for instance) a Fire/* Corruptor with the same secondary and similiar build.

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Clicky

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Thanks Cliche, thats exactly what i wanted...gunna have a crack at SR now. Only problem is, i think i may change my primary from Broadsword, what pairs well with SR...i'm only asking as i've only ever tried Katana off the primary and would like peoples thoughts and ideas. I was thinking either Katana again or prehaps DM?

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As WarDancer said, any and all primaries are valid choices.

If you want to min/max, there's a few solid choices.

Dark Melee is the most obvious one. The Accuracy DeBuff on it's attack stacks on top of your defense. Dark Consumption will be great if you have Endurance Troubles. Shadow Mauls animation is quite long, and the high defense makes it less likely that you'll feel the urge to retreat while swinging away.

Otherwise, every set goes. Conceptually many people pick up MA, this was my combo and it works really well. Much like Regen SRs strength lies not in how many guys you can herd but how good you are vs. One Strong Enemy. MA is, in my eyes at least, the best single target set within the Archetype.

Quick, fluid combos and high accuracy. What you have to realise though is that by picking MA, you more or less a sacrifice all AoE capability. Broadsword, Katana and DM can all play (to an extent as both Single Target and AoE sets). Spines and Claws are almsot purely (or should be) played as AoE/Cones sets.

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I hear thyings about SR that make me think 'wow' and then hear things that make me think' oh no'. Stories of scrappers being the last person alive in a team wipe, hitting Elude then proceeding to clear the room before anyone's been able to get back from hospital, and then stories of SR scrappers being pasted by a 4 strong mob of Even level minions. Sometimes it seems to ROCK HARDCORE!, other times it seems really fragile.

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Well, that's the general problem with Defense. It's a Win-all-lose-all kind of game. Either you take no Damage at all, or you're hit for the full amount of damage. This really shows when you face larger amounts of foes where suddenly a lot damage can be leaking through, just because of some bad rolls.

1) Tell your team before each and every fight. Eventually they have to catch on.

2) When I played Rad (in CoH), I targeted Bosses, clean and simple. It was a while back so Rad DeBuffs were insanely strong back then, IMHO. The Debuffs turned almost every boss into a little cute pussycat standing there, jabbing away with his tiny paw at us while we took down his entire mob.

And, if the team still killed the Boss first, you at least have the biggest threat out of the way. Just stand back and target a Lieut, they're good too, they usually remain stationary with a ranged attack so no risk of having a minion running away from his mob to go melee with you all.

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Actually no, Buckshot and M30 do about 40% of the damage of Slug so they need to hit 3 enemies to do comparable damage, and even then they cost far too much endurance, recharge far too slowly, and gain far too much aggro to be worth using, let alone taking. When you consider that Flame Breath does significantly MORE damage than Slug even when used on a single enemy you begin to realise that the devs are slack jawed idiots without the slightest clue about balance.

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Dude, I just, I must have smoked a [censored]-load of pot because I was obviously right. Buckshot recharges as fast as Slug.

According to the BI, Buckshot is listed as 2.5333 Smashing Damage. 8 Sec Recharge. Range 40, and a 40 degree cone. 1.87 activation.

Compare to Fire Breath, 10 range, 40 degree cone. 4.875 BI. 16 Recharge. 2.67 recharge.

You can, efficiently fit in two buckshots. In the time it takes to execute and recharge one Fire Breath. Thus making the damage 5.0666 smashing. More than Fire Breath. Yey, for suckiness!

Of course then the endurance cost plays in. Where Buckshot costs roughly 10 endurance points, Fire Breath costs 15. So it's 20 to 15 instead, and for such a slight gain... oh, well, can't have it all...

Oh, wait, I'm not done. Slug deals 4.5556 damage (smashing and according to the BI). Has exactly the same activation and recharge as buckshot (but, a 95 range and lightly lower endurance cost that is). Again, two targets make Buckshot more efficient than slug.

M30 is listed as 2.5 damage, and again, two targets or more would make it higher damaging than Slug.

Of course, the damage on Buckshot and M30 is relatively low for playing it as an AoE set in the long haul but it's been proven over and over that playing it as an AoE set and respecing it out is more than possible and far from gimped.

Also, just as a note, just a "slack jawed idiot" would go about using a cone as a single target attack (hope you're not easily offended). Nothing personal, just that both Fire and AR has some single targets attacks, why not use them on a single target? As the devs surely intended? Considering the Endurance cost won't measure up with using a Cone or AoE as Single Target.

IMHO, AR does still look good on paper. It suffers a bit in-game, especially with M30 which (as you say) does relatively little damage for being a mob shatterer and aggro magnet.

Now, I played SR back in the days before the Global Resistance and Defense change. Before Enhancement Diversification. Heck, even back before Elude became that groovy power that it is now. Haven't played with it lately though, so I'm basing this on old experiences.

I have to say, that early on you will struggle. If your team goes after higher level game, say +2 or so, then you can kiss that extra defense good-bye. Well, it's still something just that you'll still get hit a lot.

This swings both ways, lower level game will have a lot harder time hitting you as well. I got the comment once, that I just wasn't hit, even while surrounded by oh, say 20 clocks. My reply was pretty generic: "We're fighting -2s..."

SR will start to shine later, with SOs. Your status resistances are very, very nice. A clickable power, so if you're end drained, you at least won't be disoriented or napping while you're armors stay down. Just pop a CaB and reactivate your armors.

Endurance drain can be rather bothersome. I found it quite ennervating, and often found myself running armors situationally rather than full-time. Again, it will get better with SOs. And, in I7, Defense is obviously supposed to be altered a bit again. It should then scale, so 20% defense will be 20% defense, whether it is agaisnt a -1 minion or a +5 boss... (or something like that). I'ld wait and see how that will work out, but still, SR is probably more than worth sticking to.

Just going to toss some things in here . I've played with both sets, just not together.

First off, love Jab. Seeing how few attacks you have, I highly recommend it. If you're just cycling Jab it has the highest DPS of all the powers in the SS line. Even Trying to cycle Punch and Haymaker alone would give you less damage over time (due to gap and downtime).

So, Jab is well worth slotting for damage.

Even while Burn has been severly nerfed (from the divine power it was before at least) it's still well worth picking up. Teaming does wonders with this power.

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I could give you a poke in the eye - that'd be better than flurry

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Everytime someone takes Flurry. God kills a kitten.

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What's up with the Flurry hate?

It's not that bad. The DPS is acctually quite nice, 3 second animation, 3 second recharge. 3.18 damage (BI) in total, 0.53 per second. Cycling just one attack, that's about as good as Storm Kick gets (although Storm Kick has a 10% extra accuracy ... oh ... well).

Still, if we're just comparing attacks Flurry isn't that bad, in fact, it's rather good.

The problem is that when you do calculate damage in attack chains, damage per activation is more important. Here flurry is kind of crappy, but it's still a deasant filler, partially due to the rather long animation. You quick recycling attacks will most surely have recharged, for instance. Again, this is how you approach the matter, because while you probably could have fitted in two quicker attacks during one flurry those two attacks will most certainly cost more endurance.

Also, In the early game, I find it rather good in preventing gaps in attack chains, before recharge enhancers do anything at all really and you don't have that many attacks.

IMHO, it makes you look rather beefy too, definetly the neatest animation, like Shadow Maul without the fuzzy stuff .

But, in regards of the original question at hand. Flurry at level 49? Nope, it's not that good.

Going about it purely out of a numerical and statistical point of view, I'ld have to say Energy/Dark.

Energy has two high damaging attacks, and it's part energy.

I also have a bit of a weak spot for Super Strength. Rage is pretty different from your regular Build-up, and even while Super Strength is all smashing, Rage kind of makes up for it IMHO, you also get your high damaging attack (KO Blow) very early on in CoV. The set doesn't rely on one type of mez either, while Energy is almost all Disorient, SS has some Disorient, some Knockback and KO Blow has a hold part if I'm not mistaken.

I think it's up to you, there, seeing as you've tried SS out already. The S/L really shouldn't be that weak, you'll have a bit more trouble vs. Tankers and Scrappers, but almost everyone will have trouble vs. Tankers or Scrappers. Regen and SR for instance doesn't really care what type of damage you deal, they negate it either way.

Dark armor, for it's versatility, you have a PBAoE Toggle which will allow you to interrupt certain attacks without thinking and it builds up with your Fury, the more you fight the more damage it will tick in for you.

Dark is also pretty solid in terms of resistances, a nice self-heal and can keep opponents disoriented as well. The self-res isn't half-bad either. And, a Stealth power.

Over-all, Dark has no apparent weaknesses. You're resistant to Smash Lethal, Negative, Energy, Fire/Cold even Psionic.

Only thing you're lacking really is Defense, so stacking powers from power pools is vital, or carry a bunch of inspirations.

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Get rid of her AR used to be good now its just about the most gimped blaster set out there. Long animation times power damage and way to long recharge times on powers the AR needs some love big time stlye and I hope it gets it in Issue 7 if they uped the damage of the powers it would be good agian.

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Acctually (funniest thing) AR gets a slight accuracy bonus to each power. Not that it really matters, right?

Also, according to the in-game description they get an Extreme Damaging cone by level 18. Now, I don't know really what measures it as extreme, 'cause to the damage listed SherkSilver's planner looks pretty lousy to me.

The recharge timers aren't that horrid. Again, Buckshot is (oddly enough) listed as a recharge 8. Now, that's the fastest recharging cone (although rather small) in the entire Corruptor primary as far a s I can tell.

On the whole, I do agree, it does need some attention. There's a lack of Aim, the set was more or less designed to work with /Devices. Back in the days, when Smoke Grenade was a 50% DeBuff, flooring the accuracy of an even-level minion, flamethrower + full-auto, all 6-slotted for damage (before EDs, when 6-slotting for Damage was a really thing). Next, please!

Oh, dang, now I got all nostalgic and [censored] . Anyhow, the set may need some love, but it's by far gimped, IMHO.

Mmmm, ooh yeah, something that I just want to lay out there. AR is one of the sets which can swing both ways, you can play it as a pretty solid single-power set. Or you can play it as an AoE set early on as well. Buckshot and M30 might not look that intimidating, and with the knockback on M30 an all, but consider the fact that if Buckshot or M30 hits more than one foe, it suddenly deals more damage than either Burst or Slug. I'm saying that the damage might not be great, but it pays off if you hit many foes at once.

Also, I believe most other level 32 powers give you a pretty nasty penalty. AR doesn't.

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To form an attack chain we need to cover for everything, activation time, recharge, damage per endurance, damage per second, damage per animation/activation (where jab stands kind of flat, while KO Blow and HayMaker would be pretty amazing ).


[/ QUOTE ]Or we could just get all the powerful attacks available and keep using them whenever they're available

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That would be the lazy man's approach .

Me, I would like to do it the really, manly way. Ya' know, hunting buffalos with toothpicks and wrestling alligators blind-folded.

I remember there being a whole lot of calculations about this on the US forums. Also remember seeing a thread about MA that was nothing short of spectacular, some really interresting readings (and numbers) there about attack chains...

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Also, and trust me on this one (or do the math yourselves) Jab has the highest DPS in the entire SuperStrength Set, if you account for activation/recharge and just cycling one attack, that is.


[/ QUOTE ]While that is theoretically true, you can get much higher DPS by cycling multiple high/medium-damage attacks.

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If you do form an attack chain with just Punch and Haymaker. The only two melee attacks (within SS that has moderate or high, sans Hurl and Foot Stomp) you get less DPS, and a down-time while one of them are recharging. That is if we only do it within the powerset, we should probably mix in Flurry, Boxing or AS (Flurry and Boxing for their slight better DPS than AS, and AS for the -fly) to form a fluid attack-chain. And some rechargers in Haymaker.

To form an attack chain we need to cover for everything, activation time, recharge, damage per endurance, damage per second, damage per animation/activation (where jab stands kind of flat, while KO Blow and HayMaker would be pretty amazing ).

I don't have current numbers or means (or desire) to calculate the most optimal attack chain. If anyone does, be my guest .

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so why do ppl use brawl+low attack only, to build fury, when they can (on the way to get fury) already do more damage, thus defeating enemies faster?

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Because people like big numbers?

Jab is a very quick executing (very close to exactly 1 second execution and activation) and recharges in 2. You could basicly just spin Jab/Punch/Air Superiority all day.

Also, and trust me on this one (or do the math yourselves) Jab has the highest DPS in the entire SuperStrength Set, if you account for activation/recharge and just cycling one attack, that is.

So, what it all comes down to is that we could just go nuts with DPS and try to cycle jab with a filler or two.

However, I can see why people want to build up Fury fast as well. At least for PvP, you want to finish things quickly. Trading blows isn't an option if you're opponent is a superspeeding blaster or a troller slipping and out of phase shifts or PFF. You want to get in there and deal as much damage as you can as quickly as possible. One KO Blow, Rage + Full Fury should take care of that . You don't have much use of a fancy attack chain there.

And I totally agree, one the corner stones of SS is the constant damage output and a solid attack chain is just that. Ignoring that fact would be rather silly. Ignoring Jab as an attack power is silly too . In CoH I prefer:

Jab > AS > Haymaker (> Ko Blow). Occassional Punch to fill things in (not fully managed to get my recharging enhancments sorted, as I probably won't be picking up Hasten after my last respec).

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I know pvp is like a rock paper scissors, but i was wanndering what the best OVERALL was ie. the one that can beat the most others with a person of the same skill in that power sets and AT.

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Well, as far as the crowd goes either a Scrapper or a Troller as it seems.

A fair warning, mostly when I get into PvP it usually ends rather badly. Constantly striving for the best archetype and build. IMHO, it's not worth it. Play what's fun for you, and stick with it. As you, yourself say there are other ATs that will put you to the test, heck, even flat-out own you regardless of which AT you play. Better to play with something you enjoy than suffer through agonizing leveling and watching yourself use powers and graphics you can't stand.

And, if you feel very gimped, givet it a good patch or two and the Devs have probably changed around the order of things for ya

Totally depends on, I usually get more requests than I can handle and I'm in the 30s with my Tanker. Social skills is a must, so try to make the most when you team. If you do, people will send you a /t the next time as well. Also, try to get into a SG. There are plenty of 'em around. My current SG seems to be on the downhill right now, but sometimes I get teamed with the rest of the crew and I don't think we've had any "screw-up missions", all solid runs.

Stamina is a must-have, IMHO. I'm surprised you can manage your endurance without it.

Tough Hide, I picked that up too. But I planned my build pretty tight, and took Stamina by 20, so I've pretty much already fitted in every power I want now. Just waiting out Foot Stomp basicly

Rage is also a must-have, IMHO. A bit annoying downtime when it ends but I can't state enough how awesome it is.

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If you want more survivability, I've heard that Aid Self is good bet for a SR scrapper, you can get a 33% heal every 10 seconds depending on slotting, someone was raving about it a week or 2 ago.

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The discussion about Aid Self is far older than that. It was a given choice for many AV Hunting builds before the Global Defense and Resistance Change/Nerf.

Either way, I think your main target in the Fighting Pool would be Tough, since any combination of Defense and Resistances is generally more efficient than One or the Other. Of course, if you do pick up Tough, Weave isn't a bad choice in the end either. Although it will give you two more toggles to handle.

The medicine pool is by far not a bad alternative either. With the new Defense changes coming in I7, I think it would be your best bet acctually.

Sometimes, when soloing missions (Inv/SS tanker in CoH), or in 2-3 player spawned missions, I just ditch toggles all together or run around with Invincibility (sometimes Unyielding, but rarely). At least vs. even-level. My HP gets me far enough. Especially if I Dull Pain on top of that. And since I save up a lot Endurance, I can just smash quickly through the mission.

My Resistances wasn't on the top for a few levels (outleveled my enhancments) but I did just fine, the thing is that with ~50% res to smash/lethal and a Tankers HP you can pretty much solo everything. However, when teaming it becomes more obvious that it's not all that great but if you team, you face bigger mobs. But, luckily, you should team up with people who can either buff you or just kill fast enough for you to just have to handle the initial aggro.

Basicly, the choice is still up to you. You can handle without the Resist Blahs and you can handle without Tough.

IMHO, I would go for passives. Since they're auto, cost no endurance and you have a moderately high S/L resistance, but could dang well use some more element/energies. It's how I feel, but some rather stick to stacking S/L to be as safe as possible in those fights.

If I had access to a High Level Ninja Blade and a High Level MA Stalker I would put those numbers to the test. I don't trust all BI Numbers, it's been slightly misguiding or just wrong at some times.

I downloaded Hero builder to check. Eagles Claw is listed as 6.3333 BI (Smashing) and Soaring Blade (listed as Lethal) is also 6.3333 BI. However according to Soaring Blade's Description it can extend through "multiple foes". If that is true, just one extra hit would make it twice as damaging as Eagle's Claw (pure theoretical and PvE based here).

This means:
A) Display bug, or incorrect input on Cryptic Behalf.
B) Testing of BI numbers are inaccurate.
C) Other factors.

I know Katana (in comparison to Broadsword) have slightly lower damage, and faster activation/recharge time in comparison. Haven't really studied the difference between MA and Katana before though. But for me, in terms of single-targeting there is definetly no question any more (not if I would have to pick between MA and Ninja Blade). Divine Avalance and some measly -Def is worth de nada in comparison to a High Chance of Knockback and a possible Immobilization /w -slow.

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I assume you mean Claws as the second of those?

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Yeah, just copied and pasted the general idea there. My bad, and too late to edit now.

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- Lacks that really big-hitter

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I wouldnt agree with that, as the only powerset that got a bigger hitter is energi

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What I meant was that the highest damage listed for any MA power is Superior. True, only Ninja Blade and Energy Melee have Extreme Damage powers in their set. But on the other hand early all of Spines attacks are ranged ad have a slowing effect, and claws Superior damage attack is a cone.

IMHO, a Superior single-target damage attack for a scrapper set isn't all that. Not when other set have Extremes. Or Coned.

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i no things have changed, all im saying is that things have changed for every1 so if we look at blasters, Gatling for example cant kill as easy but all blasters cant kill as easy anymore so the kill ratio is likely to remain around the same level (even if the kill total falls) i only mentioned him in the first place to try to show that a bad player with the "uber" build is no comparison for a very good player with a supposedly lesser build enough said on the matter lol

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I still think you're wrong. Defense changes applied to Blasters as well, and if the defenses Blasters hade Then are equivalent to Scrappers I can only reach that the Blasters would faceplant faster. I think you underestimate other ATs, basicly.

And, as Syn said, Gatling was obviously a squishy-hunter. Team-based PvP? Well, then we have a lot of other stuff factoring in.

Either way, I don't feel we need to discuss it anymore. We still both agree on the fact that the Player is the key issue. The build plays a role, but not as defined as a smart player.