Werner

Maybe because I'm stalking you. Wait, was that my outside voice?

I don't think Katana/Dark will EVER be flavor of the month. It's very solid, but I don't think of it as the kind of flashy, destroy everything in your path combo that people would flock to. There's nothing exciting like Shield Charge. There's no top-end DPS. There's no amazing farm-destroying AoE. Plus, Dark Armor is kind of strange, its benefits sometimes subtle. I think it will forever remain an unsung hero, a flavor that only a few people enjoy.

It kinda was. If I'd known ahead of time it would take more than an hour or two, I wouldn't have done it. But once you have a few hours invested in something, it's hard to let go, you know?

Well, the -resistance procs won't change how it FEELS to hit enemies with resistance, because the procs buff your damage even on unresistant enemies. So when you hit enemies with resistance, it's still annoyingly slower than normal. I try not to worry about it, since I figure I'm still doing good DPS on average.

It was against Nemesis before the buffs to Dark Melee. I'll post a link to the YouTube at the bottom, but here's the explanation of the "why" from it:

"Let me put this video in context. You've fought a Fake Nemesis before, right? You know how if you don't hit him hard and fast enough, he'll put up that bubble, and you have to wait for it to drop? Isn't that annoying?

Now, are you watching the video? It's playing back at 64 times normal speed. You see how every second there's a flash of red, and then you see Nemesis briefly? Every time you see Nemesis, it's because he's put up a bubble. Every flash of red is me trying to do as much damage as I can before he gets his bubble up again and heals ALMOST all of the damage I just did. Thats a bubble every second. For five minutes.

Yes, it sucked. But as Shred Monkey said, "Werner has a remarkable ability to click the same 4 buttons for hours at a time."

I fought him for a while, fought off his waves, finally got him down to where he was using his Personal Force Field, or whatever the bubble is. The waves stopped, and I was just beating on him between his invulnerable periods. It seemed like I wasn't making progress, but after a while, I could see that I was.

After about an hour, I stopped making progress, and I finally figured out the problem. My Hasten had cycled to the point where it was happening while I has fighting instead of while he was in his bubble. After a while longer, I realized I just couldn't make any further progress that way. So I decided to take Hasten off of auto, and just fight without Hasten up until the next bubble.

An hour of progress was wiped out in a single bubble cycle, but I was positioned to do better damage. I started slowly bringing him down again, and after another hour, I had him back down about where I had him before.

Then my luck started catching up with me. My fingers would hit the wrong attack, and I'd lose a second or two, which equated to minutes of progress. Worse was to come.

To keep everything in sync with his cycle required that I drop my status protection for about five seconds. Fortunately, I was timing it in sync with his bubble, so my status protection only dropped while he was unable to attack. But then it dropped while I was still suffering from a recent hit, and I detoggled. I toggled mostly back up before he came out of the bubble, but not completely. So I lost time. Fifteen minutes down.

I lost track of how many times I detoggled that way during the next hour or two. Each time, I'd lose fifteen minutes of progress. But I learned which powers I could toggle up during the bubble, which ones could wait. And I got better at knowing when I was going to detoggle, and hitting my status protection sooner than I otherwise would.

Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine. A very tired machine, but a machine nonetheless. But for some reason, I still wasn't making progress. His health sometimes got down to a small sliver, but then it would climb back up. Luck was having a field day.

Five hours in, and I gave up. Not on the fight, but on my rules for the fight. It seemed like all I needed was another point or two of damage per second, and I knew just how to add it. I summoned my Red Wisp for the 5% damage buff.

Frustratingly, it didn't seem to help. Another half an hour in, and his health was going up, not down. I tried to figure out what I was doing differently. I should be doing several points of DPS more than when I'd been steadily bringing him down in the first hour. What was I doing differently?

One difference that was questionable was that I'd stopped attacking while he was in the bubble to conserve endurance. That way, I didn't have to use Conserve Power, which didn't have as much DPS as my main chain. It had seemed like the right decision at the time, but it wasn't. Turns out that if I started attacking a little before he came out of his bubble, I could cause damage as soon as he came out instead of a second or two later. After five and a half hours of straight fighting, I knew exactly when he was going into and out of his bubble, so no problem timing it.

He slowly started moving down again. After another half an hour, he was finally back down to a sliver. And then, with no fanfare, after about six hours of fighting, he finally went down.

I'm not sure exactly why I kept going. I guess at every point in the fight, it always seemed like the end was close. I didn't want to waste hours of fighting when the end was so close."

link

It can take a while. An average AV on my builds (not exactly DPS monsters) is probably ten to fifteen minutes. My longest AV win took six hours of continuous fighting. I think I should get some sort of "stupid but persistent" medal for that one.

Totally off topic, but maybe I was getting back to our human ancestor roots - persistence hunting. We're extremely efficient little machines, even if we're very slow. We can run other animals to death from exhaustion, even if it takes days of pursuit. I think that's kind of awesome in a truly horrifying kind of way.

So maybe some ancient hunter part of my brain got engaged. I have no other explanation but insanity.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I didn't pay a premium "buy it nao!" price. I'm usually a fairly patient bidder. But I'm not going to let mere play money stand between me and something I want in a game, particularly when the play money rains from the skies... or at least from the mobs and the market.

Yeah, I probably should have been more clear. I meant that when you really want to crank up the recharge, you're looking at Luck of the Gamblers and purples. And those suckers cost the big influence. You want all that recharge on a Dark Melee for the top DPS chain, to have Soul Drain up as often as possible, and to spam Siphon Life when badly hurt. But you can do OK on Hasten, 5 x 5%, and maybe one or two of the other sets. Like I said, "it's not going to be optimal with lower recharge. Still, it'd probably be good enough."

I'm sorry if I was projecting. That's really how I was reading what you were saying. If that's absolutely the opposite of how you feel, or simply way out in left field and completely unrelated to how you feel, then I'm obviously unable to understand you, because I've tried. Similarly, I think you REALLY aren't understanding anyone else here either, and appear to me to be equally guilty of projecting. Communication obviously completely failing, I'll take my leave. I'm not upset, and I hope you aren't either and I apologize if you are, but it just seems obvious that we're all talking past each other instead of actually communicating.

Well, you don't seem to be talking about EQUAL ACCESS to equipment. We already have that. You seem to be talking about EQUAL EQUIPMENT. Far different animal. I'm willing to work my *** off for hundreds of hours doing things that some people find unpleasant so that I can have the best equipment. You're apparently not. You don't want to put in the effort, but you still think you deserve the same equipment as me, that it's unfair to you to not have it. Why should you be given the same rewards for no effort that I earned through a lot of effort? To me, that's VERY much "Everyone's a winner! Gold stars for everyone!"

You seem to assume that everyone else that isn't playing is staying away for the exact same reasons you are. I don't know what the percentage might be, but whatever it is, you're making a VERY broad assumption. We'll never find out, but I strongly suspect that if we changed it to be exactly what YOU want, almost nobody would play your version of PvP either. You haven't impressed me as someone that has his finger on the pulse of what PvPers want out of a game.

Yes, true, at least once you've served enough time to hit level 50. But it's an MMO, so you have persistent equipment, and better equipment than your opponents does of course give you some advantage, more in some situations, less in others. The persistent equipment, or at least differences in equipment, seems to be what you don't like about it, or at least one of the main things you don't like about it. Remove that, and you're at pretty much pure FPS, which seems to be what you want. Nothing wrong with that. But everyone running around with the same equipment that they didn't have to earn doesn't sound much like a normal MMO.

Actually, it sounds kind of like CoH prior to IOs and if we pretend there were no HOs, since level 50s pretty much had way more influence than they could ever spend on SOs. Lord knows CoH wasn't a very normal MMO. And it WAS sort of a niche CoH had carved out. I worried that leet lewt would ruin the game. But I think they did a very good job with it, and I VASTLY prefer the game with IOs. Some people, perhaps not so much.

Same here. I pack way more regeneration than I would consider optimal because I LIKE it. My Katana/Regen has over 700% regeneration despite it being dwarfed by the clicks. My Katana/Dark has a whole lot of regeneration too, despite it being dwarfed by Dark Regeneration. I feel compelled to recommend against it because I don't consider it optimal, but I do like having it.

I'll have to take a look at the build later.

Yes. That is what I am arguing for. That is what we have. That is how MMOs work.

Again, this is an MMO. This is how they work. This is how the PvP in them works. Strangely enough, lots of people enjoy them. It sounds like that's really not your speed. Can I recommend a nice first person shooter for your PvP, where PERSISTENT equipment advantages are not part of the equation? Because persistent equipment advantages are absolutely part of MMOs.

Then I'm really just ugly in your mind, because it sounds like we're down to a fundamental difference now. I'm not a fan of "Everyone's a winner! Gold stars for everyone!" I think that the player that spent hundreds of hours practicing their PvP skills should have an advantage over the one who just wandered casually into the zone. I think that the player that spent hundreds of hours outfitting their character should have an advantage over one who refuses to put in that kind of effort. If equipment is your main objection, then what I'm hearing from the people who appear to be most experienced at PvP 2.0 is that equipment is not nearly the advantage that skill and experience are except in otherwise very equal button-mashing contests like fight clubbing.

I don't care if people with your preferences don't play. Plenty of people actually LIKE the MMO model of PvP. So if they play, and the people that don't like it don't play or play some other game, everyone will be happy. I'm not SHOCKED that you don't like the MMO model of PvP. Lots of people don't. But honestly, it's the MMO model. Just as I shouldn't be shocked that you don't like it, you shouldn't be shocked that others do, and very much consider it a game, even a FAIR game.

Yes, and I can't bring special pieces with special powers to a game of chess just because I can afford them. I hear what you're saying. But if I COULD bring those special, uber-expensive chess pieces to a game, that would be the MMO model - all of the mini-games tied together. Sports is a first person shooter. Again, perhaps you would prefer first person shooters. That's fine. Just please don't request that MMOs be turned into first person shooters just because you like those better.

2 for 6 is better than me for sure. I think it was ten or fifteen runs before I had a success. Now, in an EARLIER issue of the game, I was successful on my first and only run at +6, but that must have been before the last of the Regen nerfs or something, or I got really really lucky. I know it was before they dropped redraw time from Katana. As for how long it took, I can't remember. Probably fifteen or twenty minutes or more. I could theoretically play the demorecord for myself and time it, but I don't care enough.

(Edit: Wait, I think the "nerf" that caused me such trouble trying to replicate my earlier result was them making the Gaussian proc unique. I think I had four full sets of Gaussians. So my I12 run was with significantly lowered defense.)

Completely agree.
Completely agree.

(EDIT: OK, maybe I'm getting some insight into where part of the disagreement is coming from.

Putting it overly simplistically, on one side, we have the people who think of PvP as a mini-game. From that standpoint, arguments like "Why should success in one mini-game like marketeering translate into an advantage in another mini-game like PvP? That isn't fair." actually make sense. Hey, you're right! If PvP is a separate mini-game, that kind of isn't fair. It is indeed like starting Monopoly owning a bunch of property because you won checkers last night, or whatever those analogies were.

On the other side, we have the people who think of PvP in the context of the whole game, just like PvE is in the context of the whole game. So the PvP game includes leveling up, figuring out a good build, doing whatever is necessary to afford that build, and putting it all together. It doesn't start when you enter the arena. From this perspective, there is no separate mini-game. Success in planning and purchasing a good build IS part of success in PvP, just as much as it is part of success in PvE.

I'm firmly on the second side. I don't break this MMO into a bunch of separate mini-games, and I certainly don't suggest that for things to be fair, these mini-games should not interact. It's just one big game, called City of Heroes/Villains. There isn't really even a PvP game and a PvE game. There are just ways you can fight other players, and ways you can fight computer-controlled enemies. You may build differently to fight other players, just like you build differently to farm efficiently, to handle general team play, to specialize in a particular task force, or to solo AVs with no temporary powers and inspirations. But in my mind, that doesn't make it a different game. It's all the same MMO. I might describe the market as a mini-game, but not in any deeper sense than I would describe working for a living as a mini-game. It still has obvious and inextricable consequences for the rest of the game / the rest of my life.)

To answer specific questions and address specific points:

• +regeneration is strangely-enough one of the least important parts of an optimal Regen build

• a defense build probably won't perform better, but it won't necessarily perform worse

• since travel powers accept the amazing Blessing of the Zephyr set, giving them up won't necessarily improve your performance

My personal opinion is YES. In my opinion, the Warburg exploration badges and the nukes should be hard to get. They should be hard to get because they're in a PvP zone, which is where the PvP players live, who should be expected to PvP you. And I think them PvPing you even if you say, "hey! I just want the nukes!" is VERY appropriate behavior for a PvP zone. It's a PvP zone. PvP.

That said, I didn't see a soul when I last went to get my nukes (granted, this was on Victory), not even at the best ambush point. But even if there HAD been an ambush there, I still might have succeeded. I believe I was using as much stealth as I had access to, and pumped myself up on yellows, purples and oranges. I also dropped out of the sky (temp flight pack) rather than just walking casually up to it.

As for the exploration badges, if you can accept your own death, those at least SOUND easy. Drop out of the sky onto the badge location. Even if your dead body falls over two seconds later, you still have the badge, right?

If you're talking about badges and nukes, and thinking they should be EASY to get in a PvP zone, then I personally do think you have entitlement issues. I don't feel that paying your $15 per month entitles you to just go in and grab some badges and temp powers without being "harassed" by PvPers, any more than it entitles you to jog a lap around the Storm Palace for exercise without being "harassed" by the rather dangerous PvE occupants. You want badges and nukes, you're going to have to figure out how to get them. One way is to put together your own police escort - a team. Another is to just take some basic precautions and be willing to accept deaths, such as my approach. But I'm not sure if that's what you were saying you were entitled to, since the very next sentence was...

That's reasonable, but I suppose it all depends on your definition of "fair game" and "reasonable access to the same tools".

As far as weight classes, it isn't really directly supported, but you could set up your own arena event with a description like "SO and frankenslotted build, very little PvP experience, looking for other players with similar builds and experience". Yeah, sometimes you'll get someone that ignores that, or specifically wants to take out an easy target. But I would hope that most players would respect your wishes for arena events (just not zone PvP). I can see it being nice if this were more directly supported, such as tracking your PvP experience, and allowing classes based on that. But I don't know how easy that would be to implement, and probably everyone would have very different ideas of what the actual classes should be. That and the PvP community is already so small that further segmenting it might cause more problems than it solves.

As far as reasonable access to the same tools, in what way do you not already have that? You might complain that it takes hundreds of hours of grinding to afford your PvP build, or that you have to play the market, or create a farming toon, or whatever. But those exact same restrictions apply to every other player. Other players may simply be more willing to engage in those activities to achieve their goals. That doesn't mean you don't have reasonable access to the same tools they use. You have the exact same access to the exact same tools.

As far as zone PvP, I consider it to be inherently fair, because I consider "anything goes" to be a fair rule. If you want a multi-billion influence PvP build, you can get one the same way that the people that do have them got theirs. If you don't like being killed by teams, form or get on a team, just like they did. If you don't like being killed by people with more experience than you, get more experience. There's nothing magical about the top PvPers. They're playing the same game you are. They've just put a TON more effort into being the best, and so they are. To me, that's fair.

Definitions of fair PvP, of course, will vary WILDLY. Nobody is really right or wrong. It's all a matter of what kind of PvP YOU want, and then the devs trying to set things up so that the greatest number of players can be happy with the available PvP options.