Werner
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Posts
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Quote:I don't know what a typical set IO build runs. Maybe 250-500 million? But the sky's the limit. Alexei (Katana/Dark) was 8 billion. I think Turiel (Fire/Shield) is going to be about 10 billion. Yes, it's quite the sticker shock when you look at top end builds.Originally Posted by Unconventional
Wow, 100-200 million for typical set IO buildouts? That's pricy
No reason to despair, though. First, such builds would make soloing on heroic nightmarishly boring. They made soloing on invincible nightmarishly boring. I used to solo Sergei (Dark/Super Reflexes) on Invincible with no toggles running to fend off boredom, back before they let us crank up the difficulty levels.
Second, you can do some VERY nice things with just some common IOs, cheapo sets and frankenslotting (mixing and matching multi-aspect set IOs for primarily the enhancement value instead of set bonuses). Figure a good cheapo build like this would run maybe 50 million?
The unfortunate part about Regeneration is that it benefits MOST from recharge, and recharge is, generally speaking, the most expensive set bonus to get. Still, even a cheapo build will give you WAY better performance than needed for mere heroic missioning.
Also, influence is VERY easy to come by these days just by playing the game and selling your drops. Alexei is mostly single-target, but he can still earn 12 million per hour at vendor rates, and significantly more at auction house prices. A good farming build can earn 30 million or more per hour at vendor rates, and again, significantly more at auction house prices. You can earn merits of various sorts, buy things with them, and sell them on the auction house. You can earn Architect Entertainment tickets, buy things, and sell them on the auction house. You can play market games. High end marketeers (and I think high end farmers) can earn over 2 billion influence per week. And that, of course, is why prices are so high - people have the influence, and they're going to spend it on shiny things for their characters. -
I've never understood "I don't like Weave." It's like saying "I don't like hammers" and then pounding some nails in with a screwdriver. That said, it's one hell of a screwdriver.
(Also, I'm hardly one to judge when I'm almost done with my all-sword-attacks Fire/Shield. Let me completely gimp myself from the beginning, and spend the rest of the build trying to recover.) -
Quote:Easiest? One Steadfast Protection unique and properly slotting your powers with SOs. For example:Originally Posted by Fista
I guess that's what I'm really asking. What's the easiest way to get to the cap on defence with SR?
Seriously, a bazillion ways at a bazillion different budget levels. There's no "easiest". There's no "best". If you want a bazillion examples, just look around the forum, and you'll find them.Code:| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1198;498;996;HEX;| |78DA9D92CD6ED3401485C74D5293C6B163D234E91F8122166CBCA6655189FE48483| |584A4620544269D26469163798268773C00AFC083543C9C7BAFE74C248CBAC14ACE| |679F7BE6DEC9C4E1CDA923C4CF6361B927F348A9F1689245692AB35A184DE389B08| |5109BC61B87722E6540C11FAABF324FE5B54C940C46DFF96928AFE7F2462AFF6D32| |93994C9681B971068BC53C388F9789544A3F5CC8288D93691395E96C494F9E295DC| |94CCDE2D43F4BE349F06671753B0E23B594D96D8F36F592BE33DE5D71E5B502D58A| |5833B435E9F317D7C190EB56B1968AA8818F0CD123B611A53916FA6F1822E318A2B| |F0BBE23BF823915F475C19621D67E23D630A786FE8F0D91D9F441F4DF32BF8BEAB6| |9E236C577B03F2EABA9F55C7BA2D43AA35906F601F36794D78CD0DED7D20CFD3DE9| |A875CAF448B32BE9E23FC9CAEE2E4DA58D55ED7A99D122B94E9E88CD5E9D24D4FEC| |993F8DD8C5A17531E44999C8BE276E63D4366A7BE053D0A7CC2EFAED966ACF0CD16| |F44DC47BFFD07B243CAF47150FDB6F62EC93BC08C03E49E978919F94357B1719C64| |911217FF3883EAEA6D1456E1F4ABAB7739AFB78478A1ABFF7BDD3966647DC86FC12| |5CB80E523CB2796CF2C5F582296AF2C1396FCCF6AB5F78AF775C872C4F29AA543FB| |13BF386937481A2C0E4B93C565F1585A2C6D961D96DF2CF93D1376D1C0| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
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Stick an endurance reducer in Practiced Brawler instead of a recharge. There's no need to double stack. That'll save a little endurance if there's an issue.
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Quote:Oh, nice! AND that fixed the accuracy. Now we just need 1% more ranged defense without losing perma Hasten. And an Achilles' Heel in Slash. And for it to be I19.Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Can get an additional 5% recharge...
Pulling out all the slots from Strike, 6 slotting Spin with Oblits and 5 purps on boxing. -
Your only sticking point is Follow Up itself, which is only five slotted. So all you need is another slot without losing the soft cap. There might be a better way, but you could pull one from Focused Fighting, slotting an Enzyme, Luck of the Gambler defense and Luck of the Gambler global. Enzyme in Combat Jumping while you're at it. Stick a recharge in Follow Up. You lose 15 hit points, but you're still over the soft cap, accuracy is still over 95% against +4s, and Follow Up now recharges in 3.00 seconds, so you're down to a 0.096 gap. I'd thought that gaps were rounded up, but Arcanaville disabused me of that notion. So your chain takes 4.056 seconds instead of 3.960 seconds, and you're losing 2.4% DPS compared to what you'd be getting gapless.
Let's see, the ancient DPS template build I was using for DPS comparisons had 2.5% more global recharge, but it's overall a vastly inferior build that I was just using for DPS comparison purposes between chains and primaries.
Ah, but it does have a hint in it - Follow Up is NOT slotted with an extra recharge, but instead with a Mako's quad. So I may have decided that the additional damage enhancement was worth losing a little recharge compared to a straight damage IO. On the other hand, I incorrectly guessed when Follow Up actually takes effect, so it expires sooner than I expected, so if you want to keep it double stacked on BOTH Focus and Slash... uh... how much recharge do you need... Follow Up takes effect at 0.5 seconds after activation... apples + oranges = cheese... carry the PI...
No, you can't afford ANY more loss of recharge. It's RIGHT on the border, only 0.012 seconds from losing the triple stack on Slash. It HAS to be a L50 recharge IO in Follow Up. But it works. On paper, anyway.
I'm curious how I got another 2.5% global recharge. Both have five purple sets, both have five Luck of the Gamblers, I have five 5% bonuses to your three (I'm up 10%), and you have a Panacea set for 7.5% (I'm up 2.5%). OK, makes sense. Is it possible to find two more slots for another set of Red Fortune? Well, you could get one if you were willing to sacrifice 95% against +4s by removing the Kismet. I'm not seeing another. And I was wrong; you actually need three slots, because you have to have the Luck of the Gambler slotted too. Yeah, I don't see it. Wait, Luck of the Gambler in Combat Jumping. Melee is still at 45.05% as I have it slotted in what I'm playing with. Now you only need the two slots. But still, I'm not seeing how to get any. Well...
OK, I've fiddled, but this is the best I've been able to work out. Melee and AoE are soft-capped, but ranged is at 44.1%. Follow Up and Focus are down to 92% against +4s, though Slash is still capped. I lost some of your hit points and regeneration along the way. Hit points matter, but with Aid Self, regeneration isn't very critical. Global recharge is up by 5%, and Follow Up recharge is now +305.27%, making it recharge in 2.96 seconds for about a twentieth of a second gap and almost a full tenth of a second of leeway on the Follow Up triple stack on Slash. Oh, that's assuming you do the Follow Up -> Focus -> Slash like Bill said. It doesn't work the other way.
It wouldn't surprise me if there's some way to get the ranged defense. I was able to get it, but then melee dropped to I think 44.3%, which is even worse than having ranged problems, so that was a no go.
Anyway, here's what I had. If it were me, I'd probably stop at just getting the recharge in Follow Up, but if you're going for monster recharge, maybe you'd like something like this. And here's hoping our incompatible versions of Mids' will talk to each other (I haven't done the I19 patch).
Code:(Side Note: If it's DPS you really care about instead of just shortening the gap, you'd get more out of an Achilles' Heel in Slash than the extra 5% global recharge. I didn't poke at that or do any calculations, but getting the slot should be easy if you drop the Red Fortune set I squeezed in. Still, having only 0.012 seconds of leeway on the triple-stack makes me nervous. I'm more comfortable with a tenth of a second.)| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1457;713;1426;HEX;| |78DA8D934953134114C77B92194292C90221AC81208B09C40C8B2BA0E541B44A8B6| |84800AB14886368C2606A924A50C0931FC093EBC99BEB47B0FC665EE25B3AC12A2F| |4EC1FFD7FDEFF77A5EBF4CE74E564D215EDD145AF856D56E364BC572C3AED765C3C| |8D915A72C7C4288BEB657CAC9AA9416041E37931D7355EE4BB729ADE2739C15E47E| |559EC866CF5DF74036A47B64B50766BE56AB5A6BD2AE3B6E254093625DCABD100DE| |F3895832358E0594EEE3965C795B1DB75A76C3D849C9A5BCAD9CD23D9381D849266| |E0DFC1DAE86919E2112025F412A1F731A16F9BB143E8DF25E4304BA32C8FB80AD0B| |DC2A3D81F878505711F42340E31B400599E08410F12BA420C93D01D263C802C2F67| |092F6FD40F96A12C83AD09B07C6C69BE8C402BCCC8C38A9F8F23FC6C69600595153| |C24CB0B5648E58716BD68F50EC07C54ACC34A8457F4089714E5E2A35CF520579DE0| |AA0F21BC87F7D67B6CDA7BF609E14299B1C790840284C7D4516259B29E8115573BC| |4973C684D2D13522B8CEB84D91B842A840F50E75BC6408AAC413EE6789A66E76618| |B38C0CA1065943EA25432F287CF8987142489C12C65E128A103EA2CA1CE18EBB3EE| |C0EEF309AA54DC72CC61C617C9EB1C026842755CF9323B4E9065813EA7B98E0964E| |724B27B99793DCD929EEFA147F2B49C89A56EF9D4ED02F757E9431C6481252E3841| |6685A85A7D7A9949902A3C8D8E06E6E127EC3ADCDA88F3FF399ACEC17C657C637C2| |DC77C60F421D6AB2D44BAC455EB94858B8C4B8CCB842D884F079D58B79EE6642EF5| |C3AF88347ACFDE3E47575C3C0D1C849EA9D4BD7F2473BF1FFF31867F75508FEF0BA| |FEB6D264F9CE2C4DDCD3F0A287B7F8769EAD18E20D1DABFB2D21F08EF19E607E607| |C24FC34DB59FE42007403250FA26DE1681B6507A7BB38B271F414A58CD3D62FB37D| |C4C8353CF912CA32CA0A4A1C3BF01A237D78BB8328264A08258C124189A2C450865| |13EA1B4FE00A931DAE3| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
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Quote:Then there are a million good options, and all simple rules about number of slots are completely thrown out the window. However, you still take all of your secondary except Elude. You could skip Quickness, but most IO builds thirst for recharge.Originally Posted by Fista
What if you want to use IO sets?
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OK, I did another respec. I figured it was worth it, even if the differences are small. Slightly better combat performance for probably a couple billion cheaper seems like a no brainer, particularly since the influence isn't all spent yet, and I want to get this built and running as soon as possible without paying total buy-it-nao prices.
I compared survivability scores with the Steadfast Protection in Deflection vs. One with the Shield, and they were dead even at 517 vs. 516. I prefer more consistent performance, so I stuck it in Deflection. That's not an AV soloing score by any means, primarily due to lack of regeneration and healing, but not a problem since I plan to use inspirations most of the time.
Now to fix my bids and put the junk I no longer need up for sale. -
Quote:Thanks! Uh... I'll have to go look.Originally Posted by Granite Agent
That's an extremely cool looking costume. What parts did you use for the head?
Head: Standard
Oh, and that picture was before I picked up auras, so I now have a light orange fiery aura that contrasts very nicely with all the light blue. I think it'll let me get away with the fire epic attacks even though I can't color them light blue like his other powers. Also, the character is maximum height. However, I also have a minimum height version of him with the bat wings, so he can turn from major demon to little imp, and of course it uses the evil laugh costume change animation, and the aura is fairly color coordinated with the costume change.
Shape: Custom
Face: Demonic, Back of Head Tattoo (light blue)
Hair: None
Ears: Demon Ear
Detail 1: Titan Horns (white and light blue)
Detail 2: Beard Large
Skin Color: White -
Let's see, comparing the most recent to what I'm currently building towards:
Defense: comparable
Resistance: 3.8% better smashing/lethal, 1.2% worse fire/cold
Endurance: same
Regen: 2 HPS lower
Hit Points: 30 HP lower
DDR: up to 91% from 78% when running Grant Cover
Accuracy: lower, but still capped against +4s
Global Recharge: 3.1% higher (time averaged)
Super Jump: goes away
So better DDR, very slightly more damage output from higher recharge, no Super Jump (but I can easily pick up a travel power in I19). Hmmm, I just don't know if it's worth a respec. But posting this as a way to store the differences for me to reference as I continue thinking about it. -
Quote:I figure I'll be spamming AoE in two situations - normal missioning and farming (blues allowed) and Rikti War Zone challenge attempts (lean heavily on One with the Shield and die a lot). So my guess is that I'll be OK on endurance, but I'm prepared to swap out one or two of the procs if necessary.Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
Great builds as usual guys. Wern, if you go with any of these builds, let me know how they are on end usage when you're using your aoe's. From my experience, when you start spamming your aoes, especially FSC and fireball, both of which will be up a lot, you might want more end red in each of those attacks, unless you don't mind dropping blues.
Yeah, I'm likely to pick up both Hover and Flight in I19. Hover would likely just be a mule for a Luck of the Gambler global, but I'll see if it might be useful to actually run it. Flight is just for concept, and to get around faster if I'm going with a no Super Jump build. Not sure what I'll do with the third power pick. It would be more useful to pick up Aid Self, but I don't think I'm going to go that route. I'm not looking for absolute optimization, just optimization around a concept. We'll see how I feel after a couple months playing a concept build. I'm expecting to love it, or I wouldn't be doing it, but I could be wrong.Quote:Originally Posted by kendo
one other trick that you can use to get the last bit of defense you want is to run both CJ and hover at the same time. with the vastly increased speed of hover, it's no longer a problem to move around in combat and the endurance drain is not that much.
something like this might have to wait until I19 but maybe worth considering at that point -
Sorry for the delay. I've been busy, and this is the first I've gotten to look at it.
I've been relying on Mids' to calculate the accuracy, and just plugging in a Base ToHit of 39. Let's see if I can duplicate Mids' numbers on your latest build for Fire Sword:
To hit is 39% + 6% (kismet) = 45%
Accuracy is 100% base + 59.62% slotting + 54% global = 213.62%
Chance to hit is 45% * 213.62% = 96.129% (capped at 95%)
Mids' reports 96.1% for the same attack. Seems like it's working fine.
I like the direction you're going with the Aegis and Red Fortune, and I can live with 44.92% ranged defense if it comes to it. You'd already gotten me thinking in that direction, and I'd been mulling over how to slot it in my head for a couple days, and just haven't gotten back to Mids' to look.
I think going to two slots in Hasten may have been a mistake, though. This is overly simplistic, but let's think about average recharge. In my "current" build, Hasten is up for 120 seconds and down for 5.58 seconds (plus time spent casting Hasten). When up I have 162.5% global recharge, when down I have 92.5% global recharge. The average is 159.39% while not casting Hasten. In your build, Hasten is up for 120 seconds and down for 9.22 seconds (plus time spent casting Hasten). When up, you have 170% global recharge, when down you have 100% global recharge. The average is 165.00% global recharge. That's not as bad as I expected, but the difference is 5.61% instead of 7.5%. But yeah, the third slot in Hasten is just a nice to have in your build, not a gotta have.
Less overly simplistic, though, we have to think about what it's doing for me. It's not helping the sword chain. It IS getting me my supplementary AoE attacks and Build Up faster. It's giving me a little more time to trigger Active Defense. So mostly it's about doing a little more damage. But we've lost the procs in Fire Sword Circle and Fire Ball. Since I was estimating 10 DPS from the Fury of the Gladiator proc alone, I suspect that at best we're breaking even on damage, and possibly not even that. But suspecting isn't knowing, and I suspected wrong on your global recharge trade offs. So I'll file that away for further thinking.
Yeah, I'd considered Basilisk's Gaze to save a slot and get some more defense, but had trouble fitting it in without compromising accuracy, so I need to see how you worked that out. Oh, you didn't! The build doesn't NEED that last 10% accuracy bonus! Good grief, I feel stupid now for shying away from that trick. It's perfect. It's also EXACTLY what I need in the build I was mulling over in my head, which I've now done in Mids'. It was just slightly short on both slots and defense.
OK, let's see how the one I was working on (inspired by what you did before, and fixed by what you did most recently) compares to your most recent.
Defense: Soft capped or close enough either way
Resistance: Very comparable
Net endurance loss with sword chain: 0.43 (no grant cover) or 0.59 (grant cover, too high) vs. 0.67 yours (too high)
Regen: 16.7 HPS mine vs. 17.6 HPS yours
Hit Points: same on both, 2022
DDR: same on both, 77%, but mine can add grant cover situationally to get to 91%
Accuracy: same on both, 96% and up
Global Recharge: 162.5% mine vs. 165% yours (time averaged)
Both are very similar builds at this point. Both are there or very close on the must haves, with minor endurance issues on yours, and on mine if I'm running Grant Cover. Down on the nice to haves, mine is closer to 95% DDR, at least situationally. Neither is quite as fast on Build Up or the Fire Ball chain as I'd like. Yours has Super Jump, which mine sacrificed to pick up Grant Cover. Mine probably has 5% or so higher damage output due to the Fury of the Gladiator proc, though the advantage is tempered somewhat by the slightly faster recharge on critical powers. Mine's a little closer to perma Hasten, but that's probably immaterial. Both have One with the Shield, but yours gets a few more points of resistance out of it.
Yeah, very comparable, slight advantages either way. I'm leaning towards mine, but have to credit you with most of the modifications.
Next question would be if it's worth a respec. At this point, what I'm thinking is stick with the "current" build for I18, then upgrade using these ideas in I19 when I have to respec anyway and they'll almost certainly hand out freespecs. On the other hand, the improved build lets me sell a purple set, and I haven't bought the Shield Wall yet, and it requires two fewer level 53 Enzymes. It also soft caps even with level 50 Enzymes, so I can just put in some long term bids and have the build "finished" sooner. Maybe I really SHOULD switch. Looks like I could be done sooner and be better, and I've got plenty of veteran respecs.
So, I've got some thinking to do. Thank you VERY much for your help. And here's the build I'm considering. Or still fiddling with. Or whatever.
Code:Edit: Bah. So many similar builds. Since I had too much defense, I could unslot Combat Jumping, pick up the Shield Wall +3% resistance and stick the damage proc back in Fire Ball, because yay damage. Slight loss of hit points and regeneration, very slight increase in endurance consumption. Probably worth it.| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1415;715;1430;HEX;| |78DA9D93594F135114C7EF74A694B6335D80B294A51681B6148716500434246E898| |626489107059AB15CA149539AB626EA930FC6C4E893EB932F2A2E1FC1F835D4F85D| |14C7B3DC127D7502FFDF5DFEE7DE73CE740A772E9842DC5F165AE87CD569364BC57| |2C3A9D765C35B70762BE58EF5DB8D8AACFA8410F1F64EA920AB52DA972AB27197C7| |89A3AD0BF296AC35A55DDC83A89DF6347AB9B6271BB2D6B2DB0373757FBF0A47B46| |AB2D9E4C98A74EA95DA6E8026C5BA943B9632EDEEB560A3EB62BD52B6CF559D7BB2| |54709A2DB8BD1FD2CAC0FF03CC8F1ED72B263C42E48527CDC8108C494696D091148| |88005D028CA23621A2E75CEC30C0E8BF7C1745804C1A1B1C3AB05C81108124C9310| |B108BD214226CC7B10A5AB28FD1A2D755CE5E38B6CD82084D618EB848770AD57D5E| |07D4779463E11E20784A1F78C0F84918F5C0A44F9F82EE14B5359165CEF5765F917| |B11E5D0414C7E699BD1016648F1EE4D2FB7B081311C6A1C006F8C067B14FB3AEC02| |02532499DB2865BC2D41B5784B99F8FC01C5515441728BDAE45C612A1E70CE32CA1| |77990EEA84A86ED5ADEE57B4D3FF94907C41483D239C78C9784E1885A8982A3296A| |5EB47FE8106863E4E46F4B9F0081D560638C41898A32A5379C2648E303D43C8CF12| |0CB00FAA1B06B945EDEEA5142316F688EF1866CB63884AA81E24AE0B6CD8B11B8C4| |DC61621B9CD2811A270D0A88A1AFD49051EFFC53864FC268CB98409419D0B43D4B8| |7AF7E331FAC1BE81A5341FA4A7BF7A7029F38D30F99DF183F0167C59F619D9293A7| |4CA664C3372DCED3CE100ECB6B2DBB3B4343DC79821E44F324EF1EB067B4EF52537| |43B90E19475F28FCE1EB58F97BC54F71AB86FA1E61492353C238FA445D7F4460DD8| |2E3FFEBF96CB68FF3AF0540D7515641B40D1C6DA26CE1741B470E8E6EA29471EA7E| |31DB19874F635E0B288B284B2831C84F3C41A72F08124431512C94104A182582D28| |D1247798DE2FE012C19EF04| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
Code:| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1415;718;1436;HEX;| |78DA9D93594F135114C7EFB4534ADB992E6059CA528BD085C2D0022E808644D144A| |50952E44181662C5768D294A6AD89FAE4833131FAE4FAE48B8ACB37D0F835D4F85D| |14C7B3DC127D7502FFDFBD67B9F79C339DC2ED2543887B8B420B9EABDACD66A9586| |ED8F5BA6C780AF64EA5DCB176AB519155AF1022D6F6940AB22AA575A1221B77781D| |3F742DC99BB2D694567117B2B6DBDBC8C5DAAE6CC85ACB6A2F8C95BDBD2A1CD1AAC| |9669337CBD2AE576A3B7EDA14EB526E9B2A6867B7058EAEF3F54AD93A5BB5EFCA52| |C16EB6E0F63E282B03FFF7B13E7A1C8F48BA84C80B579A9121E8E38C2CA12321107| |E13A051965B443534755E7623FA7A6137246227C1E7758B00046A1CE8D1FC14E80F| |100C831036093D414232C43EC872AB2CF75532755CE15B8A1CB04E08AE32D6080FA| |0158F6AC5F396CA0D7F24C4F60983EF18EF09C31FB823C8F2F25DC29BA6EE4CB8DE| |C726976F9E1BF12B8EAAC67A202DC0315A8027903C10D8BA173CA6F298976091129| |904CD2608E786681A8E08F1201F427044D51C99A382BAE6190B8423A71967083D8B| |7450276475ABF974BF244FDF1342E23921F594907946987C411881ACA86A2B9AA5E| |B87FF810601BD5C8CE875E0116EB0F4738ADE3F4B5DA6F284F11C61728630354DD0| |217C40DD30C04369CF2BA5183671467CC710873C82ACB89A41FC9AC0811DBDCED86| |06C12125B8C122102078DA8AC919FD4E0B15F8C03C66FC2A843480A9A5C08B2C6D4| |DB1E8BD24FF53598D27C903BFDD585A6CC37C2F877C60FC21B88CB729C9E9DA0432| |72CC61423C7D3CE13F621DC52F55933649A9A654C13F2C71927189FE8157441564E| |8D27374D250FEA875F28FCE15B59FEDBE2A3F4155D7D8F60D22828AE1F7EA28E2F2| |CB07DC1F9FFF57C36DAC7F956FDA06B282B20DA3AAE36503671BB852B1B573750CA| |B875BE18ED8A43A7B0AE39947994059428D4271E63A43700124031504C94204A082| |58CD28D12437985E2FC018C8EEFE7| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
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Quote:"Plenty of survivability" is relative. Yeah, a standard purpled out Dark/Shield is great for AVs. But what about two AVs? Three? Yeah, it'll do the RWZ challenge, but what about a DOUBLE RWZ challenge? Sometimes it's fun to trade speed for survivability, and see just how much you can survive and triumph over. Yeah, you could do it with a Tanker, but sometimes a survivability Scrapper is a better package for the job than a DPS Tanker.Originally Posted by Syntax42
I thought the builds being posted here have plenty of survivability. Between a well-slotted siphon life, 300% regen, DDR, and soft-capped defenses, most of the posted builds should be about as survivable as a defense scrapper can get. Short of slotting to reach the HP cap, I don't see a way to make a dark/shield more survivable.
Stacking s/l resistance seems like a futile effort. The amount you can get is very limited and won't make enough of a difference.
More smashing/lethal resistance can make a big difference in these sorts of situations, because it helps deal with the serious spikes of damage you're taking. So does keeping hit points topped up by spamming Siphon Life faster than the DPS chain. -
Quote:Honestly, I think it would be very similar to a more traditional build. You still want the soft cap, and you still want massive recharge because a lot of your survivability is tied up in how fast you can spam Siphon Life, and to a lesser extent your ability to double-stack Active Defense for DDR. You'd frankenslot Siphon Life instead of doing the pure Hamio approach, because you want a lot of additional recharge and you're willing to sacrifice some damage. You then want an attack chain that does decent DPS while spamming Siphon Life at some insane recharge rate, at least if you want to keep your hit points topped up instead of playing reactively, and I think keeping them topped would be a good idea. Most of your damage recovery will come from Siphon Life, and while regeneration is useful, I think it's of only secondary concern. Resistance and hit points are important, though, and more than in a traditional build if possible. I'd definitely push for those once the other must haves were in place.Originally Posted by Santorican
Has anyone ever built a dark/shield that focused more on survivability rather than raw dps? Almost like a paladin type character. I made a build for something like it, but its slightly disappointing, I was hoping for s/l resistance in the low 40s and passive regen around 300% but I can't seem to get it that high.
I haven't planned one out, though, and I don't know if these initial ideas on how to do it would actually work out for the best in a real build. But that's how I'd at least start building one. Version 1, if you will. -
Well, I certainly like having more recharge, but I should check the issues you noted.
Let's see. Looks like we're now burning about 1.00 EPS when using the sword chain, which is just too fast. I can drop the Fury of the Gladiator for an endurance in Fire Sword. That drops it to 0.73 EPS. Needs more. Hmmm, guessing a Panacea in Health will do better than the Miracle. Yeah, down to 0.61 EPS. Not seeing an obvious candidate for improving it further, but there's probably something.
DDR, well, need to calculate that manually due to the Mids' bug. Battle Agility is 86.06% defense enhancement before ED, so 56%+(0.15%*(86.06%-60%)) = 59.91% after ED, so 13.8% * (100% + 59.91%) = 22.07% DDR. Active Defense is 45.4% enhanced, so 17.3 * (100% + 45.4%) = 25.15%. So the total DDR is 22.07% + 2 * 25.15% = 72.37%, so down about 6%. Still maybe OK, but losing more than I wanted. Another slot would fix it if I could find a slot.
Accuracy is down a bit too, now at 89% against +4s. It's not bad, but I was shooting for 95% or higher.
Let's see, what else do we have. It's actually soft-capped now instead of just very close. That's nice. Resistance is very similar. Regeneration is the same. Hit points are down a hair. It's a little more affordable, but that's a non-issue.
Hmmm, might be able to get that slot to fix the DDR by using Basilisk's Gaze instead of Unbreakable Constraint. Recharge drops back to what it was before, though that's still enough for the chain. Ranged defense rises a bit, which we might be able to trade somehow for something. But really, a little extra recharge was most of what the new build had going for it. Also, I totally broke the accuracy. So I probably should have kept the Unbreakable Constraints. Hmmm.
Well, it's something to play with, anyway. Thanks.
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Quote:Eh, I've only done the one respec so far. I'm game for another one or two if there are some noticeable improvements to be made, so if you want to have a shot at it, that's very nice of you and I appreciate it whether or not you meet with success. Even if I decide not to go with whatever you come up with, it'll at least be interesting to see, and could influence my I19 build (when I suspect they'll hand out freespecs, and I'll WANT to respec to take advantage of the fitness inherent).Originally Posted by Arbegla
Hey werner,
I'm currently at work, but I'm gonna take a swing at improving your build when i get some spare time (pretty much tomorrow morning) I'm pretty decent at looking outside of the box, and i know all about maximizing things just because you can. You still lookin for outside advice, or are you tired of tossing respecs at this toon?
To avoid confusion since I've posted a whole lot of similar builds, THIS is what I'm currently assembling:
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I'd probably go ahead and take Build Up because I'm a fan of burst damage in regular missioning, but it's true that it's just one more thing to think about for not a huge benefit, just a decent one. So yeah, it's optional, and can be skipped for maximum mindlessness without seriously gimping yourself.
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Isn't the DDR in Grant Cover unenhanceable?
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Well, as PrincessDarkstar pointed out in another thread (thank you, PrincessDarkstar), Mids' is calculating the DDR incorrectly. It looks like it's simply completely failing to take ED into account when calculating DDR. I calculated my actual DDR manually, and it came to only 78.2% DDR instead of being capped.
So I guess I need to drop back and punt on the build, and it's just unfortunate that I've already respecced and it's about 2/3 slotted already.
I THINK I'm going to do a pretty minimal change - swap One with the Shield for Grant Cover. Luck of the Gambler in Deflection moves to Grant Cover, Gladiator's Armor in One with the Shield moves to Deflection. Lose the Positron's Blast proc from Fire Ball, slot another L53 Enzyme in Deflection.
Battle Agility: 38.3% + 38.3% + 15.94% + 15.94% + 25.5% = 133.98% enhancement before ED, 56%+(0.15%*(133.98%-60%)) = 67.097% enhancement after ED, DDR is 13.8% * (100% + 67.097%) = 23.06% DDR
Active Defense: 38.3% + 23% + 23% = 84.3% enhancement before ED, 56%+(0.15%x(84.3%-60%)) = 59.645% enhancement after ED, DDR is 17.3% * (100% + 59.645%) = 27.62% DDR
Grant Cover: 13.84% DDR
Total = 23.06% + 2*27.62% + 13.84% = 92.14% DDR
So still not entirely there, but not necessarily worth using additional slots. Well, I could lose 10% regeneration and 15 hit points, go with two Enzymes in Combat Jumping, and stick another Membrane in Active Defense.
Active Defense: 38.3% + 3*23% = 107.3% enhancement before ED, 56%+(0.15%x(107.3%-60%)) = 63.095% enhancement after ED, DDR is 17.3% * (100% + 63.095%) = 28.22% DDR.
That won't be enough, and I doubt an Enzyme would be enough either:
Active Defense: 2*38.3% + 2*23% = 122.6% enhancement before ED, 56%+(0.15%x(122.6%-60%)) = 65.39% enhancement after ED, DDR is 17.3% * (100% + 65.39%) = 28.61% DDR.
Total = 23.06% + 2*28.61% + 13.84% = 94.12% DDR
So, not quite there, but pretty close. Not sure how happy I am with it, though, since I've lost a lot to get there. Anyway, here's THAT build:
Code:But now I'm thinking that maybe I should just give up on the whole capped DDR thing, and just stick with my "must have" of 80% DDR. I'm only 2% away, and I've learned I can get 2% by sticking a second L53 Enzyme in Active Defense. So I could just drop the Positron's Blast proc from Fire Ball and slot the Enzyme, and I should be just barely over my stated minimum. In MOST situations, I'll be a little more solid, with better hit points, regeneration, and One with the Shield to fall back on. In defense debuff situations, I'll have better net endurance use (don't need to run Grant Cover), but lower survivability. That really might be the better overall compromise, and it's MUCH closer to my original build.| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1422;711;1422;HEX;| |78DA9D935B53525114C7F78183081C6E22A22812A6029247B1AB5A39536A3799313| |11F4A654EB8536618648066AAA71E9A669A7AEAFAD44B65D94768FA26D537293BAD| |CBC6A9D7CEC0FFB72FFFB5F75A0B4EE1DEBC21C4C339A1052E56AD66B3542C37AC7| |A5D365C056BBB52EE58BDDBA8C8AA5B08116FEF940AB22AA5B958918DFB3C4E1E6E| |CDCB3BB2D694667107A2B6DAD3F095DA8E6CC85ACB6C0F8CE5DDDD2A1CD1AAC9669| |3274BD2AA576ADB7EB5B3BDD382999766C5BA945B5D0BF54AD9BC50B51EC852C16A| |B6E0F65E482B0BDF47981F3DB64B8C3A84C80B47869125E8638C1CA12325105E3F4| |0A3285D4C3971A9F31A211E83E584489F863DB753E4157D10A0A9002DAAD1192182| |D14D0829638FA201014E0E70396F90A5E33AA1B3C8716B84C00A631590168FA11A9| |7AAC6F581320E7D26C4F708031F199F0883FB5C1444B9F92EE1CE50817EB8DEC34B| |4ECF0CA7E4551C56298EAA790F84FBD8EBF0A9BDDEB6E740603BDC60F1B345F35FA| |554B329EA57002E0A52676C11E4E63E01735815119EA60CBB6618B384EEB38C7384| |9E39EE3F444554C3226F68A7F73921F58A907E41187FCD784988415494EF7244BFD| |152F63B61EC074103438C0D2266C3239CB0D2A7BAD5779ECBD461AD5FB5A09F4A17| |AA4D502AFFDC43304C284B2247850EFE83A76048AAB2933705F6E8C82DC63A63839| |0DA64940861E8DF908A1AFA49291FFDC53860FC260CDB845141CD0A42D488AA6124| |4AFFD877B094E183F4CC3C7762813BB1C8B84498B84C780FF69CB2E7C669E998C99| |8604C729FF3843DB09BCA6E1EE7834E30A608F9938C53FCA705FBA4CA6F92FB37A0| |1FBEA8F0C11F62E9EF150FC52DEBEAB584258D4C49FDF04DB53D2181E50B8EFFAFE| |78BD13ECEB3E2055D455906D1D670B48EB281D34D1C5938BA8D52C6A9FDD568671C| |3C83794DA3CCA0CCA244213FF10C9D6E1F880FC540F1A3045082282194084A1CE52| |D8AFD070CB1EF4A| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
And since I've already respec'd, and this moves a slot, I have to consider if it's worth a respec for 2% DDR at the cost of a little damage output. And currently, no, I don't think it's worth a respec.
So I think I'm going to just keep building it like I'm building it, and suffer with failing to meet one of my "must haves" by 2%. Lesson learned regarding the DDR calculations in Mids'. I hope I don't forget that it's broken next time I'm calculating DDR. -
Quote:Does it? Uh oh.Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
When you mix Enzymes and Membranes in AD doesn't mids start throwing up wrong numbers for DDR?
I know on my build it was definately out and I ended up with 5 HO's in it!
Ah, what it's doing at a minimum is not applying ED to the DDR enhancement. That's really, really bad for my already-respec'd-half-slotted build. #%&*! OK, how bad is it going to hurt me...
Battle Agility... Defense is 18.8% from 11.3% = 66.4% enhancement. 66.4% enhancement of 13.8% DDR is 23.0% DDR.
Active Defense... pre-ED enhancement is 84.3%.... after ED is 56%+(0.15%x(84.3%-60%)) = 59.6% enhancement. 59.6% enhancement of 17.3% DDR is 27.6% DDR.
Total is 23.0% + 2*27.6% = 78.2% DDR.
#%&*!
Bah. I should have been suspicious when I was able to pull off 95% DDR without Grant Cover. I really should have. I'd never heard of such a thing, so I should have checked the numbers.
Guess I need to think about how to fix it, and whether or not I should, or if I'll just be satisfied with 78% DDR. -
I completely agree with Willpower for pure mindless killing. Not sure about the primary. Spines and Claws have attacks that work best at different ranges, so I think they can take a little thought to play well.
I guess I'll go with the old standby - Katana (or Broad Sword). Willpower works best in melee range. Katana pretty much requires that you stay in melee range, plus makes an already solid secondary even more survivable. However, it's not so great at AoE, so it depends on what you mean by whooping everything in sight.
If you want good AoE, but without all the dancing of Spines and Claws, maybe Fire? It won't add anything to Willpower's survivability, but Willpower is pretty good on its own, and Fire just has nice damage output all around - single target, burst, AoE, it has it. Maybe not the best in any one category, but I think a very good combination of all three. It's probably particularly tasty with the Fire epic for Fire Ball, and Willpower will give you the endurance to allow you to take that instead of Body Mastery.
So... survivability = Katana/Will, damage = Fire/Will. Those are my recommendations. -
Quote:Yeah, the DDR isn't great. But Parry also lets you stack up some extra melee and lethal defense when you're in trouble. Combine that with some DDR, and it should be enough if you're on top of it (i.e., monitor your base defense and respond immediately if it goes red).Originally Posted by Psiphon
In regards to WP I hadn't noticed the DDR - value seems too low to be of much use though.
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Looks like 91% to me - 31.0% from Battle Agility, 30.0% from each Active Defense.
One more Membrane in Active Defense looks like it would do it. It would reduce the recharge time, so you'd be double-stacked for longer, plus it boosts the DDR to 33.4%, capping you when it's stacked.
As far as finding the slot, your Ranged defense is awfully high, so there's probably a way to trade that off. Like pull a couple of Numinas out of True Grit, stick an Enzyme in Combat Jumping and a Membrane in Active Defense. That gives you 44.8% defense to ranged and AoE instead of 48.1% ranged and 44.3% AoE and soves the DDR "problem". Might be a better solution. That's just the first one I noticed.
What Iceboxer said is simpler, I guess. But it drops your AoE defense further to 43.8%.
Probably better answers still that we haven't thought of. -
Quote:I'm not sure what you mean by a static level of survivability on Willpower. The regeneration rate scales up in groups, and it has quite a bit of defense and resistance on top of all that regeneration, particularly when combined with Broad Sword and/or IOs. Willpower doesn't have a heal because Willpower doesn't need a heal. With his Katana/Willpower (same difference), Iggy Kamakaze took out a Pylon while standing in a double Rikti War Zone Challenge spawn, then finished off the spawn. He also did a master of ITF solo with no temps, no inspirations and no deaths. Granted, it WAS Iggy, who can seemingly do anything with anything, but I still wouldn't accuse a well-built Broad Sword/Willpower of not having enough survivability.Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
While I do think /WP is a great secondary, the problem with it is that you have a very static level of survivability, and once you see it going south there is nothing (Aside from insps) that you can do to prevent that.
The down side of Electricity is that it has no defense, and defense is king. Katana helps GREATLY in that regard, but you're probably not going to end up with a soft-capped build except to melee and lethal. That's plenty for a lot of situations, but it will have glaring holes against ranged and AoE anything but lethal and MAYBE energy (but even 75% resistance isn't GREAT mitigation, merely good). It will also have a big defense debuff hole. So I don't think it's a "no matter what the enemy type or numbers" combination. It seems to have definite strengths and weaknesses.
Now, I just started a Katana/Electric myself, and it's a combination I've wanted to play for a long time. So I'm not suggesting that it sucks. I think it's quite good, and should be a lot of fun. I just doubt that it will be AS good as Broad Sword/Willpower for the stated goals.
Mind you, I know almost nothing about the new incarnate system, and how it will affect which builds are good and which are not. -
It's good. But all Scrapper combinations are good. It depends on what you're looking for.