Von Krieger

Posted my usual summary of the dev chat if anyone wants to look over the details of things. I got a few that bAss missed.

Mention is made of having Synapse on to talk about something with the intials PP.
Paragon Ponies, Pretty Pretty Princess, and several other things are speculated.

First major tangent: Moulan Rouge and Zwill not knowing any of the songs except one. Which the title of it is apparently somewhat racy.

The White Board of Doom features a Bingo card, referencing a Steelclaw thread.

Synapse is here and we drift into a tangent about his hair. Or lack thereof. Speculation is that it is dyed clear.

Tunnel Rat wants to know how long Zwill has been singing the obscene French lyrics to the aforementioned song.

Zwill, and the new and Beastyle in chat sing "Getting to know you...."

POWERSET PROLIFERATION 3.0!

Blasters get Dark Blast and Manipulation, control is removed, Manipulation is heavy hitting support.

Controlers get poison, which is getting made over.

Defenders get Thermal and Fire Blast

Masterminds get Sonic Resonance

Scrappers get Waraxe and Mace and Energy Aura, which is also getting looked at. Taunt aura and a scaling +Rech bonus.

Tankers get Martial Arts and Super Reflexes.

Brutes get Katana, Broadsword and Regeneration.

Corruptors get Psychic Blast and Poison.

Stalkers are getting Ice Armor, which is changed a bit for the archtype.

Dominators get nothing! They lose! Good day sir!

But they will get stuff post Issue 21.


Blaster
Dark Manipulation is 3 melee attacks, Smite, Shadow Maul, and Midnight Grasp. Dark Pit got moved over from Defender's Dark Blast.

Dark Blast's damage is pretty average in ST and AoE, but has significant control and tohit debuff.

Defenders
Thermal. Buffing friends with fire! Zwill hates Heat Exhaustion in PvP.

Defenders can now melt face too, which is important.


Scrappers
Energy Aura for Scrappers is not a straight over port, it's getting a rework that is spreading to the other archtypes as well.

Synapse mentions the "Cabin Rule."

The heal in the AoE has been replaced with Def.

Conserve Power has been replaced with Energize, ala Electric Control.


Tankers
Zwill thinks SR sounds nasty.

Synapse says it is the most nastiest, easiest romp to the softcap.

Your big hulking tank can now crane kick.

SR gets a taunt aura in, he thinks, Evasion.


Brutes
Katana and Broadsword.

Katana will be awesome for building fury.

Regeneration will have the values kept as they are and will let Brutes tank, essentially.


Corruptor
Psychic Blast is the same as the Defender version.

Posion has had a quasi-revamp with improvements to the set. Current design in beta is that Poison has Venom and Weaken having small AoE effects with half the effect of original that is on the base target. The heal has been buffed. Poison Trap has intial hold instead of initial sleep, and has a Recovery debuff.

It works now.


Masterminds
Sonic Resonance, which Zwill never plays but hears all the time.

Serious buffing on pets, like Thermal, but with some evil debuffs and -res to boost pet damage.


Stalkers
Ice Armor, a pretty interesting set. They still get Chilling Embrace, and Hibernation has been gotten rid of due to the Patron pool. New power is called Icy Bastion and is similar to Moment of Glory, a short burst of survivability. +Regen, Recovery, and Resistance. Combines the set's solid defenses with resistance.


They’re not done, this is just part 3. Proliferation will never stop, as it's now proactive.


Tangent on Steelclaw's Ustream Bingo. (Check of Devs talking about Steelclaw and mentioning Bingo.)

Something comes up that they cannot talk about.

They'd like to see Dark on Dominators.

Switching it from Poison Trap to Posion Tarp would break the game. Zwill channels his inner Ackbar.

Super Strength has something they've looked at porting to the Scrapper and they want to do it.

Power Pool Customization is handled by art, Zwill wants to maybe get Tunnel Rat back on soon.

Bibliotecha! Check a box!

Chilling Embrace only affects enemies when you're out of Hide. It does not break it.

They want to do more Epic pools sets and there are plans for it sometime after post-21. Additional power pools, ala Medicine, Fighting, etc, not in Issue 21 but they hint at some improvements coming.

Positron's fear of clowns is brought up as is Epic Clown Summoning.

They want to do something with SG bases, they want to do it, but can't put a timeframe on it.

They are away of people wanting Electric mastery for Scrappers.

No demon summoning Control. Sadface.

Masterminds getting Kinetics? Eventually. They still have Cold Domination, Kinetics, and Radiation and some other stuff. Maybe Empathy. Zwill thinks that would be pretty cool.

Corruptors with Forcefield, eventually.

Poison Control for Dominators? Interesting, jotted down.

Titan Weapons animations look awesome, are frickin' huge. And like Sputnik. *accent* Spherical yet pointy at parts.

Zwill likes the mechanics of Titan Weapons, but does not like the hate mail he'll get for the taunting.

They wait in dread for Black Pebble coming around the corner, but Zwill has the Nerf Gun.

They CAN talk about Time Manipulation.

Tangent on Zwill's terrible Scottish accent.

Psi-based MM: Pedestrian Summoning! Lots of suggestions.

Craig Fergusson tangent.

Dancing in-game tangent.

Almost everything has proliferated. Blasters are 'done,' at least in the normal sense. Martial Arts for blasters is something they could do with existing animations.

Beastyle wants Katana Blast. "Summoning katanas out of the air and hurling them around."

Zwill wants Capoeira. But it would make the animators heads explode. The idle animation would be awesome. Also "Summon Drummer."

Table thumping. Check the box.

There is a whole lot powers wise, we only know about two. It's just the tip of the iceberg.

Tangent on using the TM character on various keyboards and operating systems.

Zwill is the worst beatboxer/"vocal percussionist" ever.

Synapse can't talk about if new powersets will have to be purchased or not. Not his department. Time Manipulation will be free for VIPs.

AE access can be accessed through the Paragon Rewards program at several levels. Synapse can't talk about the details. Free players can unlock it through the Vet tree.

Praetorian Epic AT's: Praets don't go to fifty just yet. Technically.

Synapse's favorite powerset: can't talk about it. His favorite one to play on Live is Regeneration. He has so many characters on Virtue. Invuln, Pain Dom, and Spines are also faves.

Zwill loves Katana and Regen. But has been focusing on Incarnate stuff on his Controller.

Time Manipulation has "Interesting Mechanics."

Beastyle: "Will we ever see whips from Demon Summoning used elsewhere?" They would love to, but there would need more whip animations done. Which are time consuming. Maybe in a Dominator Assault set.

Zwill wants Scrapper Indiana Jones. Maybe control or soft holds. Knockdowns and stuns.

Dual Whip right after quadruple blades and Dual Archery.

Low hanging fruit: Cold Domination and Kinetics. Both 'easy' to port over. Easy is a relative term. It's time consuming, but easier than making a new powerset.

Don't mention mo-cap to devs unless you want to see a lot of eye twitching.

Flying to Mars/Back to the Future tangent.

Doom-Criers fruit baskets: Soon (TM).

Synapse plays Dominator and Stalker a lot.

Zwill plays Mastermind. Ninja/Time will be deadly.

The line between Hero and Villain is thinning, as AT's can go to either side at any time. Except the Epics, at least in the beginning.

And are we going to get a built in, uncolorable 'legacy' version of the default object that's about 15-20% bigger than the base model?

And I think some of the Dark powers already have 'bright' options in their Patron versions from Ghost Widow.

Do they all start going bad in one ear eventually? Because it seems like every set of headphones I've owned has done that and now my gaming headset is well on it's way to doing the same thing, even though it only has the single cord rather than two.

All the faction ones can be seen on Paragon Wiki by looking at the mobs in that faction. The Phantoms look like the Phantom Army from Illusion, and the Polar Lights look like wisps from Croatoa.

Oh, and you can get a look at them by taking your Incarnate character to the Tailor and looking at the power customization section for the Lore slot, I do believe.

http://www.cityofheroes.com/images/issue_21/screenshots/full/Tunnels11.jpg
http://www.cityofheroes.com/images/issue_21/screenshots/full/Ice2.jpg

El Topo: Originally was just going to be piles of stuff, but the art team went "We can make this more epic" and started taking a look at all sorts of microscopic things, the in game Devouring Earth characters, and it "just kind of grew organically."

This draws groans from everyone else within earshot.

Chris Gregory (I think was the name said, El Topo is far back and my headset doesn't get any louder) is their environmental artist and he was doing all sorts of experimental stuff with moving fungus-type stuff. One day he was cooking in the kitchen and had some burnt egg stuck on one of his pans and he brought it in to use as a photoreference. The ground texture on the first pick is essentially heavily manipulated burnt egg.

Noble Savage: "I know we've got some super-zoomed in textures of Broccoli somewhere in that level."

El Topo: "Yeah, so if you find yourself salivating while fighting off the hordes..."

Zwill: "Salivating over heavily photoshop altered, mucus-covered burnt eggs. Awesome."


http://www.cityofheroes.com/images/issue_21/screenshots/full/diabolique_tower_02.jpg

Zwill is surprised how quickly we got the Ghostbusters reference.

David did the concept art for the whole "City Consumed with Tentacles" thing. They hadn't done a heavily destroyed, rubble-ized city since Boomtown. They wanted to do something amazing with the concept and with the new techniques and technology from Going Rogue.

They wanted to evoke images of epic destruction, with things tilted at crazy angles, the very foundations eaten away from the city and filled with water, big fozzilized tentacle husks sticking up, and a giant red vortex in the sky at night.

El Topo: "There are a variety of places in First Ward, normal city, some of the city that's intact but part of the section that's caving into the water, flooded skyscrapers, some craggy looked areas that have dust blowing through them and tumbleweeds, and a hospital."

Zwill: "The actual variety in the zone is pretty amazing. It's interesting going from the utopian/dystopian nightmare of Imperial City and Neutropolis to seeing the order and this area that was the gem of Cole's empire and seeing what happens when order in Praetoria just decays."

http://www.cityofheroes.com/images/issue_21/screenshots/full/carnival_of_light.jpg

There is a lot more variety that we'll be seeing in the game besides just the six there.

http://www.cityofheroes.com/images/issue_21/screenshots/full/fallen_seers_02.jpg

El Topo: "There are some powers where the Failed Seers raise up their tentacles up high and present this really neat silhouette."

The developers wanted to make the First Ward villain groups unique and distinctive, and give them their own unique looks and shapes and silhouettes.

http://www.cityofheroes.com/images/issue_21/screenshots/full/sorceress_serene.jpg

There are more villain groups than just these that are neat looking. "Just the tip of the iceberg. I don't want to give Black Pebble a heart attack."

http://www.cityofheroes.com/images/issue_21/screenshots/full/seed_hamidon.jpg

Zwill: "And we have a Praetorian Giant Monster, and when I say giant, I mean GIANT!"

"Every once in awhile the Praetorian Hamidon sends out a little excursion to see if it's safe to come out yet."

The Avatar of Hamidon, which we'll face in the Underground Incarnate Trial, is described as "A big honking beast."

So apparently we'll be fighting a big evil goose, guys! Praetorian counterpart to Null the Gull! (Blatant VK lies)

David: "The neat thing about the Devouring Earth is that they can be whatever we want them to be. They're organic and they can grow and mutate and be just as gross as we want them to. So once we get into Praetoria where the story is greyer and darker and scarier what does that mean for the Devoured Earth? These guys aren't just tree guys anymore. They've changed and gotten scarier, and this is a really great opportunity for our team to go to town and really make some terrifying critters to fight."

The Praetorian DE started with the Avatar of Hamidon.

David: "It's not just an evolution of the lore, but what we can do artistically."

The Avatar of Hamidon has some jelly, but also has kind of a dead wood look to him, which was carried over into the Seed of Hamdion, with the jelly and nucleus.

David: "One of our other concept artists came up with the whole burned wood idea. The primal DE are not that scary, they're like nature spirits being all wood and rock and gems and such. So to make them scary we pretty much burn them to start out. Now they're like burned nature Cthulhu whatever."

They will be going into more detail with the Avatar of Hamidon when they start revealing more about the Underground trial.

http://www.cityofheroes.com/images/issue_21/screenshots/full/chrono_shift.jpg

Tunnel Rat is responsible for the look of Time Manipulation, she was trying to find a way of not just doing a giant clock, but a visual way to insinuate time passing. So she cam up with a giant spiral. When time speeds up it spins clockwise, and when time slows down it'll spiral counterclockwise.

Finally they make El Topo scoot forward so I can bloody hear him.

http://www.cityofheroes.com/includes/images/template-items/character-pose/intro_comic_cvr.jpg

For the new tutorial they wanted to introduce the game, literally, with a big bang.

Freedom is not just a rebranding, they're going back and thinking about what the game looks like from the logo to the art style and part of that was coming up with the modern digital painting style to use throughout the game and the game's marketing. They’re using it in the character creation screen, the comic book, marketing materials, and some surprises coming up.

Alex Ross's artistic painting style in comics was mentioned as an influence.

David: "The thing with using 3D renders is that we can't make them quickly. We can never have enough. But we can draw digital painting assets much quicker and we can get this out to the players on a more regular basis."

Zwill: "And we plan on leveraging this asset into future content, right?"

El Topo: "This is just the beginning."

Zwill: "Just the tip of the iceberg."

Tangent onto where El Topo saying "Bibliotheca" came from. Zwill can't remember, El Topo thinks that trying to remember would ruin the mystery.

Zwill: "A mystery wrapped in an enigma wrapped in bacon."

They don't have images to show for the redesign of Atlas, but they can talk about it.

They now have the technology to go back and make things how it was originally supposed to be.

David: "The original idea for Atlas Park was this futuristic, art deco inspired super-tall city. It's like future tech, old and new swished together. The original technology did a good job selling that, but the new version? We've got the intricacy and the cohesion that we didn't have before."

Zwill: "And we have shrubbery."

David: "Shrubbery helps. Atlas Park is a safe zone; it's a nice clean semi-utopian area, not that different from the Magisterium, really, but a little less totalitarian. But it's nice, it should look nice. And the team has really gone in there with foliage and the plaza redesigns and really brought that to life in a more compelling way."

El Topo: "With the latest technology it's possible to do more, and we also have a lot of recent talent that brings a lot to the table. Like Dave mentioned able to reach that vision that was there before but the technology was not allowing us to reach it."

The plaza was redone and there is more curvature in Atlas Park.

The artists will be available at Comicon to chat with, David will be doing sketches, and Zwill will be having Ustreams from the booth.

We'll be shown a lot of new stuff for the first time at Comicon.

And now we get into questions.

Hopefully these won't be piles upon piles of questions that could be answered by reading the documentation already available like the Facebook Q and A was. :P


Chaos Creator asks "What is your favorite new building?"

El Topo: "Diabolique's tower with the tentacle wrapped around it, and the silhouette and the vortex above it. We've got some great screens of that. Just so cool."

David: "For me it's the Atlas Park stuff. We have a building with a hole in it that you can fly though. And the elevators. And all these new things that we've added to it just bring it to life for me."


Infamous Brad asks: "Are some of the new buildings in AP modeled on real buildings in Providence, RI?"

Everyone has a chuckle and Zwill states "I don't think so."


"How are new costume pieces coming along?"

Zwill says they're coming along fine, but they can't talk about them yet.

David: "We're well aware of all the categories with new things that the players want to make, and I think one of the most fun meetings we ever have is "Hey, what should the next thing be?" Which one of these do we tackle next? There are so many cool things in the pipeline that I wish we could talk about but can't."

El Topo: "We look at your suggestions and also try to surprise you."


From Voodoo Girl: "How long did it actually take to revamp Atlas Park?"

David: "It's not simple."

El Topo: "It took some time. There were three artists working on it."

David: "It was pretty close to rebuilding the entire zone from scratch."

Zwill: "It's using a lot of the same geometry but it's touching like every pixel."

El Topo: "The buildings themselves are completely redone. We're talking many, many, many weeks."


"Ping pong paddles for dual blades, please?"

Zwill: "Noted."


"Do you have any plans on revamping some of the NPC's, like Skulls or Hellions?"

General behavior of winking and nudging that seem to state that they have done so.


"Are there any plans to give some costume parts from the new villain groups to the players?"

They are well aware of the interest, but there is nothing they can talk about. David is stroking an invisible goatee and grinning.


"Is the Atlas revamp going to be reflected in mission maps?"

David: "I don't know if we should answer that right now."

Zwill: "We'll see if we can find an answer to that."

I could've sworn mention was made of updating the Mayhem and Safeguard missions, but leaving the Meteor in Atlas map alone somewhere on the boards.


"Will our characters ever actually get fingers?"

Much chuckling over the question.

Zwill: "Kind of an interesting story, we were talking about ideas for emotes that we could put into the game, and somebody had brought up the joke of doing an 80's themed booster pack and I'm like "Absolutely! Do the hairband and like that, that would be awesome!" and that was based off of a player joke that I'm not really sure how they got there, but somehow it had something to do with my character description. I was like if we made this amazing 80's themed booster pack we could put a hairband in there and one of the emotes could be throw the horns up. *makes heavy metal/longhorns hand sign* And Positron was like "That's a great idea!" *holds up flat hands*."

David: "Every once in awhile we have a circle the wagons "What can we do?" tech meeting, and everyone wants to improve the game in little ways like that and we do things like that from time to time. It wasn't that long ago that we brought out Ultra Mode and drastically improved the look of the game. That'll happen again. We'll see what's next."


"Do you have plans on revamping other zones?"

It's something that has been discussed, but there is nothing concrete that they can talk about right now.


Release the Weasel: "Do all the Time Manipulation powers look as big and swirly as the screens we've seen so far?"

It varies from power to power.

It's customizable; we don't have to have the default imagery.

It looks better in marketing if they use the most powerful, epic-looking one.

They vary depending on the intensity of the power.


"Will we ever see new cars in game?"

David: "I would love to kind of sketch up (dunno what was said here) some new cars and maybe a bus. For all of our bus stops."

Zwill: "I've noticed we have a ton of bus stops, and I guess that bus is just perpetually late. That or it's an invisible bus."

David: "(reading the chat) Yup, gas stations. These are all on our wish list."

El Topo: "Well there's the one..."

David: "The one destroyed gas station that appears twice in Praetoria. There's no clean, undestroyed version of it."

Zwill: "Well, have you BEEN to a gas station lately?"


"Will you ever finish the construction?"

Zwill: "No! NO! It's a city, a growing, constantly growing city! Ever changing! All that good stuff!"


"Putting an Enriche plant in Praetoria?"

Zwill: "Interesting idea."

David: "There are some things we've done recently to keep the cities feeling alive and revamped and changing. I really like that way that when you come out of the tutorial Atlas Park is not just different in an art sense but in an atmospheric sense. With the squads of NPC's running around and all talking about it. I like how we’re keeping things consistant for you as a player. New billboards, things like that, going in to keep things fresh."

Zwill: "All the NPC's have new dialog in chat that they talk about the current happenings in Paragon City."


Dave67 "Sorry, I meant the construction sites south of the arena in Port Oakes. Will that ever be finished?"

Zwill: "You should ask Lord Recluse. I'm pretty sure he's got that tied up in paperwork."


"How are you finding working with the player art coming into the game on billboards and things like that?"

David: "The first time we did this was an art contest for Going Rogue. The ideas that came back were so cleaver we barely had to touch it before putting it in the game. There was one, the Unity poster that came out so well we used it in our marketing. So having such a good experience on that we took a look at Atlas Park and opened it up to players with absolutely no restrictions. With the new update players are just starting to see them around the city and see how many there are."

El Topo: "I come from a console background, CoH is the first non-console thing I've worked on. And it's just unheard of for console games to be using things from their players. An MMO can do that and we have a passionate community. And I think that's just awesome."

Zwill: "And our players have such a great wealth of knowledge about our game too. We try our best to get everything exactly right but sometimes we don't get every detail exactly right, but many times our players have things that they can suggest that happen to work better. For example the recent incorporation of Astral Christy and Empyrean Michael. We had some suggestions for a costume revamp and we incorporated those changes in there."

El Topo: "It was a great player suggestion we took to heart. It looked fantastic and most of the work was already done."

I've got my SS/Fire/Mu brute, who runs the trials quite well, but with the large number of merits needed to acquire all the costume-y aura bits and such, having all of one character I like and is able to run the trials doesn't seem enough.

I like the melee archetypes and AT's that can play from the sort of safety that are common to melee archetypes. So mez protection, personal defenses, and pretty good damage. Over the years I've acquired a number of level 50's, though most have been sitting gathering dust after I dinged them 50.

I have:
Energy Melee/Willpower Brute
I've only played her once or twice since the changes to Energy Melee. Right now she feels incredibly slow to me.

Claws/Electric Brute
I built her to have Power Surge up as often as possible, and her build sports Permahasten as a result, but due to the crashing of Power Surge she's not as effective as I'd hoped.

Dark/Dark Brute
I think my second Level 50, or my third. Just looking at her IO slotting makes me go "What sort of idiot made this character?" rather like I did when I picked her up after leaving her on the sidelines for years. "How the hell did I make it to level 20 with only one attack?"

Shield Defense/Super Strength Tanker
Originally made because SS/SD was the flavor of the month farmer at the time and I wanted a blueside farmer. She was made before you could e-mail INF to yourself and I needed a friend to act as an intermediary. She's sitting at around 50% defense, actually, and has a pretty good allotment of IO slotting. No self-heal, though. So she'd probably be duct-taped to someone with a heal aura during Keyes.

Spines/Regen Scrapper
My first level 50 character and my original badge hunter. Oh boy do I ever regret that. She was my main for a long time, and actually managed to get purpled out when purples were running 100-200 million on the market. Rather survivable, but with Spines incredibly, obnoxiously, cripplingly long animation times, she's very difficult for me to play these days.

Plant/Psi Dominator
My only 'squishy' level 50. Softcapped defenses (Am aware the Trial foes hit easier), and about 70% recharge pre-hasten. She's about halfway to the permahasten build I have for her. But it's like all purples from here.

Crabstermind
My only other character currently with an Alpha Slot. She's within sneezing distance of being softcapped to all positionals and Permahasten. Once I get her Alpha Slot to Tier 4, all her pets will be perma. Provided they survive, which may cause problems in Lambda and Keyes. The only other character I've really played post-50. But having her pets getting eaten may put a damper on things since she's very AoE centric. without them. And I suppose even with them.


Near 50's:
Warshade, Level 42
Not IOed in the slightest. I don't really remember how to play her and I don't have the twitch reflexes to fire off things and shift forms like a proper MFing Warshade, so she's been stuck at 42 for awhile.

Katana/Willpower Scrapper, Level 45
Is just a few levels shy of getting the slots she needs to be soft capped against all damage types that are not Smashing and Psi, at least once she's hit Divine Avalanche and I find where it is exactly I left that PvP +3% Def IO of mine.





Something New?

Or should I level up something new? I'm not above dragging another character up though the ranks so long as they can solo well. I was thinking that maybe a Dark Melee/Electric Armor might be an optimal character to run the Trials due to the high levels of Smashing/Lethal/Energy resistance it is capable of attaining.

Not sure how to build for the trials, though.

I know for the Trials you play what you find fun and that ought to be what you go with. But I'd like something that is relatively durable for the three trials and is somewhat self sufficient. And also sports mez protection. Something with some good single target and AoE both would also be nice.

Because I've tried to join three now and they've all managed to **** up in some way.

The first two I get punted off the team as everyone zones in, my LFG window telling me that there is an event in progress and won't let me do anything.

The next one we cannot queue up for some reason. The leader tries everything and then gives up and breaks the league to start a new one.

Only for some stupid reason it's telling me that I can't come along because I'm in a league, even though I'm staring right at the LFG window and I'm not queued, nor am I in a league or on a team.

I'm going to go roll up a new character and futz around with her, because as of right now CoH isn't letting me play my main character how I want to play her.

Worth five English pounds. Once he kidnaps their queen.

What is the build for, farming? Everything in general? Is it a cheapo starting point for you, or an end goal? As it doesn't really do anything particularly effective. I can easily get a lot more recharge and Defense into the build. Especially since you diodn't take Rise of the Phoenix (which is a power I have on my SS/Fire and I have six slotted for a recharge and defense bonus.)

Yup. I can confirm that.

But it stacks up to 4 times.

And has the possiblity of being activated 75% of the time with every single attack you do.

I used HeroStats to keep track of the damage I inflicted over a night of five tip missions and an alignment mission, an ITF, and one of each trial. On my SS/Fire/Mu Brute Judgment was my biggest damaging attack at well over 1.5 million points of damage, out of a total of five. Then came Reactive, Foot Stomp, Blazing Aura, Ball Lightning, Burn, and Knockout Blow.

It adds up.

Could I get a data chunk for that? The data link doesn't want to load.

You can do some wonderful things with Willpower. For example I think it is perfectly within the realm of possibility to have Permahasten and capped defenses to all damage types except Smashing, Psi, and Toxic if you go with the recharge focused Alpha Slot.

Though that is a multibillion inf build.