Ultimo_

Again, the problem is most noticable at lower level, but it is still significant at higher level.

I should also remind you all that it's not something that we can't compensate for. I'm saying that compensating for it is undercutting the entertainment value of the game.

I'm also not saying it's hopeless or worthless. I'm just saying it needs a recalibration. We shouldn't be running out of endurance as fast as we are, and everyone should be equally affected by it.

SinisterDirge, I think endurance should be restricting characters, just not as much as it does. I've said it several times in this thread, even. I'd also agree that if characters are dying too much, then they may need more health or defense to compensate if that's why they're dying a lot. Also, while a significant portion have said things are fine, I'm also seeing a significant portion saying there may be a problem.
I wouldn't want foes to lay down, I want to be able to fight them and not have to stop midway because I'm out of endurance. I shouldn't be more of a threat to myself than my foes are. That is, my foes should defeat me because they DEFEAT me, not because I have to essentially stop fighting.

Memphis Bill, you make an interesting point. It kind of feeds into another beef of mine, that the game seems to want to prevent you actually fighting back, what with all the holds, stuns, sleeps, drains and so on that prevent you defending yourself. And to think that a large number of these effects are on foes from L1-L15 (Vazhilok, Clockwork, Lost, etc.) when you don't have the means to defend yourself (yes, you have inspirations, but they go pretty quick). No one wants to be a helpless punching bag, whether it be because of status effects or lack of endurance.

I do see your point, I just think the hurdle is set too high. It's far too prominent a hindrance, and it directly affects how much fun the game is to play.

Stryker:
Some good suggestions on how to cope with the problem, but again, the problem still exists.

Rush Bolt:
This has little to do with my personal performance. As I say, I've considerable experience and rarely have any difficulty with anything in the game. The problem is it's just not fun playing when I'm more concerned with conserving endurance than defeating the enemy.

Also, this is not some personal crusade (well, maybe a little). The fact is, I'm not the only one that has said this, and it's been brought up countless times over the years. That suggests to me that there's some kind of a problem that needs to be examined.

Why should it change? Because it's NOT FUN, and that's the only measure that really matters.

Rush Bolt, All Hell, Panzerwaffen, DrHR:
I've been around for several years, I know how to build. All my characters have Stamina, triple slotted and endurance reduction in every power. The point, which you either missed or ignored, is that it's not fun standing around unable to act. Not in this game, nor in any other.

CaptA:
I'm referring to characters throughout their careers, and not just between battles.

Psycho Jas:
Ok...

Iceboxer:
It's most obvious and crippling on characters that do less damage because they're using more endurance to defeat the same foes. It's still an issue all around, though.

ShoeTattoo:
I agree.

SinisterDirge:
Endurance should be part of the game. I said that in the first post. However, it shouldn't be a "constraint" on fun. As it is, it's excessively constraining.
I agree soloability is important, but I do think EVERY character should be comparably able to do so.

Biospark:
You illustrate part of what I'm saying. We spend a lot of time and energy achieving higher levels and new, cool powers, then can't use them because we're out of endurance. Why bother leveling if I'm going to be forced to use my Power Bolts instead of everything else due to endurance issues. Your suggestions are valuable, but I think they're a band-aid on a broken leg. They don't really solve the problem.

Frosticus:
Chances are you're using less endurance because your allies are defeating the foes for you, or because there's someone with an endurance reducing power helping you. Again, as mentioned above, you shouldn't need a PhD in character design to be able to have fun with it. Frankenslotting and advanced building and whatnot is well and good, but often isn't useful and is usually beyond the casual player.
Soloability is important. I'd be willing to bet 90% of the time people are soloing in the game. Every class should be equally able to solo (though through different means) and should still bring something unique to a team. THAT would be good design.

Postagulous:
If you say so...

Nethergoat:
Then you're a rarity, or have spent billions of Influence on your character.

Firewyvern:
Yes, I have, and as I said in the original post, none of them are as restrictive as this game is. I can go to Lord of the Rings Online and fight pretty much continuously without fear of running out of power before I defeat my foe. That is, battles are decided not by lack of power, but by lack of health, which is how it should be.

Emberley:
Personal slights won't change the fact that endurance costs are excessive.

Fulmens:
Personal attacks, such as blatantly accusing me of lies, will be reported. Watch your step.

Firey-Enforcer:
As I mentioned, I'm referring to characters across all levels.

GavinRuneBlade:
I'm not necessarily suggesting a total revamp, just an assesment and a recalibration.

Rush Bolt:
The case is in experience. That is, it's just not fun running out of endurance so fast. Sure, if you're fighting an army, or a foe that takes an unusual long time to beat, then perhaps you should have an issue. Fighting a typical spawn should not exhaust you. If you want numbers, just compare damage output. All characters are expected to defeat the same foes, meaning they all have to inflict the same total damage. Some deal that damage for less endurance. THAT is part of the problem. As I said before, it should be a limit, but not on fun.

Uberguy:
I'll admit I have made some concept builds, but I AM an experienced player. I HAVE taken advice and tried many of the suggestions offered. I've found them all to be inadequate. Yes, build should have some impact, and yes tactics should be important, but if the main tactic inthe game is NOT doing anything because you have no endurance then I see that as a problem. I've also said in the past, that if a build is to be possible, it should be capable, too. I'm not pretending designing that is easy, but it sure wouldn't be hard to make endurance use less prohibitive. Also, I feel I should warn you against personal slights. You haven't made any directly, but you're treading the line. I hope we can keep things civil and hopefully productive.

Fulmens:
I wasn't aware of that new power until this thread, but it only illustrates to me that the devs have recognized there's an issue. Again, I see it as a band-aid, not a solution.

Milady's Knight:
I agree with your analysis, but I don't think the devs have done enough.

Cybernaut:
Having Rest always available would certainly be nice, but it's not really between battles that the problem lies. Starting at SOs would be nice, but again, I don't think it fixes the main issue.

Oedipus Tex:
I'd agree with you, but I do think Endurance should be in the game. I just find its impact far too significant. I certainly wouldn't miss it if it was removed entirely, though.

Sunstormer:
It just seems to me the challenge should be overcoming the enemy, not your endurance woes.

Johhny Butane:
Nice to see someone in agreement with me. I also hope the devs will do something with the endurance situation.

Merry Mint:
I think you're getting what I'm saying. Endurance should be part of the game, just not the main obstacle to overcome.




I apologize in advance as I'm not likely to make a detailed response like this again, it's just too hard to keep track of everything and is rather time consuming. I'll respond to points I find particularly interesting or illuminating, and I thank you all for your considered responses.

Well, I've been away for a while, and I've been trying a number of other games. Today, I came back for a bit to see if I wanted to buy Gong Rogue, something I'd been looking forward to. It revealed something to me that I've said before many times.

This game is tedious. Compared to other games, it gets really tired, really fast. I word it that way deliberately, because I'm talking about endurance use.

Characters in this game go through endurance way, way too fast. It's especially bad for characters that rely on toggles, such as Defenders and Tankers, but as a general principle, endurance use is prohibitive. That means we spend a lot of time standing around, either waiting for our endurance to recover, or using one or two powers for fear of running out and detoggling (which usually means instant death, at least at higher levels).

As a rule, it's more fun to be using your powers and fighting the enemy than it is to be standing around, often as a punching bag for the NPCs because you lack the energy to fight back. In no other game is this problem so pronounced. Other games have power usage, but it's prohibitive here.

I've said it before, I'm saying it again. Endurance use needs to be recalibrated. It should still be part of the game, but it should not be so prominent. It's not in keeping with the source material (when was the last time you saw the Thing gasping for breath out of exhaustion), and it's just not fun.


(All comments reflect my opinion. You may disagree, and I welcome any thoughtful posts that do so, but try to avoid flaming. The point here is to see if there is a significant percentage of the population that feels as I do, and if so, to be able to show that to the devs for consideration.)

Well, my Dr. Strange homage is a Grav/Rad Controller, and he fits the bill pretty well.

The other route I've considered is a Rad/Dark Defender (or Dark/Dark). With the ability to alter the colour of powers now, it can be a pretty good mix, and really quite effective.

I tried to include rad in my mage's powers because a lot of the magical foes seem to use radiation in their effects (not in combat, but in capturing npcs and such). Plus, rad is very effective.

Indeed. Well, they should change that, I think.

Ok, there I was, a L11 Tank in Atlas, when the call went out that a Winter Lord was up. Gathering a team, I went to fight the Winter Lord, and with his defeat, entered the real of Lord Winter.

My team moved into battle with Lord Winter, and was promptly wiped out, not by the Giant Monster, but by the army of L50 minion Frostlings.

Why are there L50 foes in a mission open to all levels? They should be scaled to the level of the characters, like the Rikti or Lord Winter himself.


Just thought I'd mention this.

If we allow that the AT is to solo 25% slower, shouldn't they have 25% more endurance (or equivalent) so they can last long enough to go slower?

Personal attacks in the tags are childish and unwelcome. Accusing me of lying about something is an attack on my integrity, which I take very personally. My integrity is very important to me, DO NOT denigrate it, or you WILL be reported.

Not related to the thread, but personal attacks in the tags are no less childish than personal attacks in the thread.

Westley?
Your cue to go? Why is that? I don't understand.

Many:
I mentioned that the slotting isn't quite as the build showed - in reality, I've got three Damage, and one each of accuracy and endurance reduction. That's my standard slotting. I'd changed it to see if it would make a difference (just in Mids).

Schism:
The flight boosts are meant for use in Hover. However, I didn't realize Flight capped at two SOs, I thought it was three. There's a slot I can use elsewhere!

Psycho:
Well, enhanced recovery means you can maintain the damage stream, which adds up to more effective damage, just spread out a little longer. If I could have continued attacking twice as long, I might have beaten him (Catburglar, I mean).

As for my defenses, you could be right. As I say, my tendency is to look for defense before offense.

As for jamming on the attacks, playing a Tanker has taught me not to. Particularly when Knockback is part of your power set. I usually delay my next attack until the foe is getting up so I have a chance to knock him right back down.

I could drop AS, but it's just so useful. My original build didn't have Hover, but that was likewise just too useful. Thus, I kept them both (they're even in character).

Emberley:
If it's not worth your time to post, why did you post?

Uber:
I'd agree the perception is somewhat subjective, but I don't think anyone can argue that Defenders get the short end of the Endurance stick. I'd just like to see it lengthened a bit. As I say, I'm not terribly concerned about it being too slow, but I shouldn't have to stop in the middle of a standard spawn to recover, particularly when no other character I've played has to.

I'll tinker a bit with my defenses, but I'm not sure how I'll like it. As I say, I'm a Tanker player, nothing is as annoying to me as being too squishy, not even having enough damage (appearances to the contrary).

Garent:
Ya, I had been considering swapping out Total Focus (I just wanted it for coolness more than anything) or perhaps Conserve Power.

Bio:
As I say above, having more endurance means you can do more damage because you can sustain your attacks longer. It's kind of indirect, which is why I think it will be less likely to unbalance the other set combos that suffer less.

I also agree that the inherent needs a change. I'm not sure a change into what, but something that doesn't reward poor play, and is useful solo.

If I had my choice, I'd actually suggest a very slight increas in damage AND a small improvement in endurance use. Nothing drastic, just a balancing pass, as it were.


(edited to respond to new posts)

Regarding my toggles, I often don't run them all, it depends on the threat. Tough, for example, is no use against foes that don't do Smashing or Lethal damage, so off it goes.

Here's the projected build. I should mention that the slotting isn't quite like this.

He's L40 now.


Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.601
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Technaught: Level 50 Technology Defender
Primary Power Set: Force Field
Secondary Power Set: Energy Blast
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Power Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Personal Force Field -- DefBuff-I(A)
Level 1: Power Bolt -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(3), Acc-I(3), Dmg-I(5), Dmg-I(5)
Level 2: Force Bolt -- EndRdx-I(A), Acc-I(7)
Level 4: Energy Torrent -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(7), Acc-I(9), Dmg-I(9), Dmg-I(11)
Level 6: Air Superiority -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(11), Acc-I(13), Dmg-I(13), Dmg-I(15)
Level 8: Hover -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(15), Flight-I(17)
Level 10: Power Blast -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(17), Acc-I(19), Dmg-I(19), Dmg-I(21)
Level 12: Swift -- Flight-I(A)
Level 14: Fly -- Flight-I(A), Flight-I(21), Flight-I(23)
Level 16: Boxing -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(23), Acc-I(25), Dmg-I(25), Dmg-I(27)
Level 18: Health -- Heal-I(A), Heal-I(27), Heal-I(29)
Level 20: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(29), EndMod-I(31)
Level 22: Dispersion Bubble -- EndRdx-I(A), DefBuff-I(31), DefBuff-I(31), DefBuff-I(33)
Level 24: Tough -- EndRdx-I(A), ResDam-I(33), ResDam-I(33), ResDam-I(34)
Level 26: Repulsion Bomb -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(34), Acc-I(34), Dsrnt-I(36), Dsrnt-I(36)
Level 28: Weave -- EndRdx-I(A), DefBuff-I(36), DefBuff-I(37), DefBuff-I(37)
Level 30: Power Burst -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(37), Acc-I(39), Dmg-I(39), Dmg-I(39)
Level 32: Maneuvers -- EndRdx-I(A), DefBuff-I(40), DefBuff-I(40), DefBuff-I(40)
Level 35: Explosive Blast -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(42), Acc-I(42), Dmg-I(42), Dmg-I(43)
Level 38: Nova -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(43), Dmg-I(43), Dmg-I(45), Dmg-I(45)
Level 41: Conserve Power -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(45), RechRdx-I(46)
Level 44: Temp Invulnerability -- EndRdx-I(A), ResDam-I(46), ResDam-I(46), ResDam-I(48)
Level 47: Total Focus -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(48), Acc-I(48), Dmg-I(50), Dmg-I(50)
Level 49: Force of Nature -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(50)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Vigilance



I might go with Build Up instead of one of the epic powers, but I'm undecided.

Uber:
Well, that the endurance problem is the same for all the sets within the AT is is why I'm suggesting a change for the whole class instead of just one set.

Psycho:
Some good points.
I'm not after tankmage status (unless you consider any combination of range/defense to be tankmagery). I have no trouble with lower damage output, but it has to be sufficient to defeat the threats we encounter. At present, I find it lacking in this regard. Only a small tweak is necessary, though.

With Empathy, you will get access to the Recovery Aura, which grants you the endurance to sustain your attacks, the exact thing I'm suggesting.
That an endurance increase is a boost in damage is the point. The difference is that sets that had the capacity to defeat certain foes will still be able to while sets that had difficulty will fare better.

My playstyle has evolved with the character. At first, he was much more Blastery, using lots of ducking and weaving and lots of Force Bolting. Now, he's nearly capped in Defense, and has solid Resistance, so I am actually able to tank much more effectively. PLUS I have the PFF. It does depend on the situation, though. Some foes are harder to tank because they have better accuracy.
Interestingly, I play my Tanker much like you do. I've always felt the job of a Tanker is more than just punching stuff. You have to watch what the enemy is doing and move around to get their attention and lead them to where they're more vulnerable.

One thing I should say, I DO enjoy the character. I just get frustrated in some situations, and I'd like to see a bit better balance so those situations are challenging instead of frustrating.

I'm sure the devs are very bright people, and I don't mean to imply otherwise, but sometimes I really wonder if they ever actually PLAY the game. Sometimes the numbers just don't capture what's going on in the game.

Garent:
I didn't ignore your example, I apologize if you got that impression. The fact is that you did have advantages due to your level. By L50, I might not have had a problem either. Like IOs, you can't balance the game around the possession of Accolades or Veteran Rewards. You have to balance around the baseline.
To be clear, it wasn't your example that was confusing things, it was mine.

Sarrate:
I'm not a numbers guy, so I wouldn't presume to suggest a level of modification, but it doesn't strike me that much is needed. As Uber says, this is the question.

Psycho:
I wanted Weave, so I could approach the soft cap. Tough and Temp Inv. are for when I DO get hit (plus, they are in character for an armored hero).

As I say, I've been using inspirations instead of aim or buildup, but I can try rearranging a bt and see what it's like. The only concern I will have is that I may become too squishy.


I've always thought DPE should be equalized across all ATs and power sets, but one hurdle at a time .

I've done it once or twice, with nothing slotted in Force Bolt but accuracy and endurance reduction, but I couldn't tell you why - at the time, I was just firing and hoping for the best...

Interestingly put. I do tend to play amore defensive style, and Tankers are my favourite class (ifI could have made a Tanker with blasts, none of this might have come up...).

In any case, I'd love to have been able to incorporate Aim, but I just didn't have room. For Defense, I needed to get to Weave, and that requires Boxing and Tough (and with Temp Inv., I'll have 71%+ Resistance!). I usually carry a couple of yellows and reds to compensate, though if the fight runs long, I can be at a disadvantage.

I'd thought about Snipe, and like it on other characters, but I wasn't sure what to leave out in favour if it. Energy Torrent? I don't know, I find that so useful. Certainly, it would increase total damage output.

My other build is my team build. Its full focus is on helping the team, and to that end I have lots of buffing pools (Leadership, etc.) and the team bubbles. The offense on that build is very anemic, but rationally so.

I appreciate that people offer me suggestions, and I usually do test them out (I copy to Test Server when its available). However, as was mentioned, I do start from a concept and then try to realize it in the game. Sometimes that precludes some of the suggestions. Also, it doesn't remedy a problem that I see affecting everyone. As I say, I'm not looking out just for me, I'm trying to make things better for everyone.


Westley, I think it may be better to consider dmage output from sets that don't have a mechanism built in that increases their own damage (not considering secondaries either).

As I say, I'm hardly the first one to note an issue here, I'm just hoping to find a good way to relieve it.

The Range/Defense thing is one I'v been trying to get to for years. I've occasionally suggested the Assault sets for Tankers (no change to damage numbers would even be needed, only Taunt would have to be added somewhere...), but balance would have to be considered.

Either way, I'll be very happy if that sort of thing becomes possible.

TR:
No, I didn't neglect him. However, his characteris Level 50, which means he's getting greater effect from hi enhancements (notably the endurance modification, but also the damage), and he does have passive accolades that affect it too. Any power set that has a means of increasing theeffect of its damage will do better than Force Fields or Energy, neither of which can.
As I say, though, that example is confusing the issue, and I'm trying to leave it behind.

Uberguy:
Yes, Tech has the Fighting pool, in order that he could have Tough and Weave. It's kind of irrelevant, but I can post thebuild if you really want it, when I get home.

Flechette:
As I understand, the game is balanced (so to speak) around SOs. IOs will certainly help, but they don't represent the standard.

Cat:
I don't have the info in front of me, but I believe most of the other sets have attributes that reduce Defense or Resistance. Again, I'll look when I get home.

Westley:
My fundamental hypothesis is that Defenders do too little damage relative to the endurance they use. As I see it, you could either increase the damage output or reduce the endurance use to correct this.

My opinion is that every character should be able to solo anything that is defined as soloable content. To me, that's everything up to and including Elite Bosses.

I do include mission architect enemies in this. If the AE can be used to create foes that are invincible in solo conditions that will appear when solo, then there's a problem with the AE system (which I do think anyway, but I realize the AE is still essentially in a beta state). Either way, I am prepared to set the AE aside for the moment. There's just too much variablity, so I think we should restrict the discussion to "normal" content.

Wavicle:
Again, that example is beside the point. Let us move on.

Bio:
Glad you enjoyed the fight!
As I say, if I had an ability that bottomed out his endurance, I might have been able to beat him, because with no endurance, he couldn't heal himself.

As I say, I'll post my build when I get home.

Luminara:
I'd appreciate it if you don't put words in my mouth. I'd also appreciate it if you posted constructively.

PC:
If I was the only one who ever brought this up, you might be right. However, I'm not, so...
Personal attacks are unconstructive and petitionable, and do nothing to strengthen your position. Please refrain from being insulting.

Schism:
If you have anything to add to the thread besides personal attacks, I'm happy to listen.

I agree, it distresses me when my threads go around in circles as they do. I'm trying very hard to keep it on track though.


That track is to discuss ideas to remedy the problem that many people have noted, that the damage output of Defenders is too low. I've suggested reducing endurance costs to allow for more sustained attacking, thereby increasing damage without actually increasing Damage.

Westley:
I do have and use Hover.

Cat:
Yes, they all do, but they don't all have the ability to sustain or do the same amount of damage with that endurance, which can leave some sets at a severe disadvantage.

Sarrate:
Yes, but debuffing Def will result in more hits, which results in more damage.
You're right, blues aren't always the answer. That's why I also tried using a combination of blues and reds, among other things.

Your examples are good, and describe what I'm trying to get at in a way.

PC Guy:
Grow up. Telling people to "stfu" and "gtfo" is childish and unproductive.

Bill:
I'm not going to address this, as it's little more than namecalling.
Numbers don't lie, but they can mislead.


Arcana:
I apologize if it seemed I was putting words in your mouth. That was never my intent. It does seem we agree on the issue, even if I've presented it poorly. I'll start over without the confusing example.


I, and others before me, have percieved a significant lack of performance in Defenders, specifically offensive ability. That is, they are sometimes unable to do enough damage to defeat some foes. There are many possible examples of this.

There are two ways this could be remedied. First, damage could be increased. I don't think this is the appropriate solution, as it would give a disproportionate advantage to primaries that improve their damage output.

The alternative is to decrease endurance use. Doing this would not create an advantage to power sets already able to generate sufficient damage, but it would allow power sets without that advantage to reach the same damage output, just over somewhat longer time.


Is that clearer?

Nifty video Westley. I notice a couple of things though. First, you have a pet adding to your damage. Second, and this may be due to your level, I notice you're using a lot less endurance in general than /nrg does, and you have powers that steal his endurance and lend it to you (both of which will allow longer attacking, and therefore more total damage over time - which is what I'm trying to accomplish).

I'm glad you enjoyed the arc, Muon. It is pretty close to the memory cap (99.61%, as I recall), but I didn't realize I'd skipped the character descriptions! It was one of the first arcs I wrote, so I've been planning a revamp. Be assured I'll tweak it as you suggest.

Reptl, I'm not trying to get people to try the arc (though it's certainly not something I'm going to complain about). There are those that would say I'm not that clever. The reality is that if I wanted people to try my arc, I'd just ask them to. I have no need nor any desire to resort to subterfuge.

Catburglar doesn't usually spawn right on top of you, but it does happen from time to time.

I wonder if Muon's recharge time bonus would be a reason he could defeat the character when I could not? How do you get that window to appear, anyway? As I say, I used Inspirations instead of Aim and Buildup, which I see he has.

Back. Hopefully my exam turns out well, it seemed to go ok.

Anyway, to comment on the posts in the interim...

Bill:
My build IS designed for soloing. I have all the blast powers (not Power Push, which seems redundant, and not Snipe, which is useful, but I couldn't fit it in anywhere), all slotted for damage. I don't have Aim or Build Up, there just isn't room in the build. However, I have inspirations to compensate for that.

If the problem is me, why does this subject keep being brought up by others (for years before I started doing it - and for the record, this is the first time I've brought up defender damage).

Psycho:
Rad debuffs the enemy resistance, effectively increasing damage.

Arcana: