TonyV

...And thus another perfectly good thread gets ruined.

Couldn't we have just left it at, "Welcome back!" and post thoughts and/or complaints about the trials in one of the other two or three flamefests? Basically, any mention of trials or "raids" is an open invitation for a post to be threadjacked by one of 10 or so people.

Oh well, welcome back. Now let the inevitable bickering continue...

I'm jealous, too. I'm on Comcast. I don't hate it, but knowing that there's a lot better out there, I want it.

Unfortunately, I don't think Verizon has any plans whatsoever to roll out FiOS in Atlanta.

By the way, if at all possible, get off of AT&T. I cannot emphasize that enough. They are absolutely clueless on how to run a decent network. I'd recount my experience with them, but there's just not enough room.

I don't think I've ever personally teamed with Golden Girl, but I have watched my roommate team with her. I remember it because we had actually sent a few messages back and forth on the forum at the time. She was nothing but nice, there was never sense of imposition, and I wouldn't hesitate to team with her any time. In fact, now that I have a character on Defiant, I'm hoping to get the chance to.

Ah yes, the old "more reward = you HAVE to group" fallacy. You don't have to group if you don't want to. No one is holding a gun to your head. You will never find me advocating the position that you shouldn't get any rewards for playing solo. You just shouldn't expect the same level of rewards if you don't.

I'm about 99% sure that you're taking this grossly out of context. I'd like to see what led up to this alleged statement and what the exact quote was. I understand what they're getting at, but I'm not surprised that people pushing an agenda would miss the point.

[Not to anyone in particular]

People keep acting all insulted at the idea of the devs knowing better than they do how to keep their long-term interest. Hello!!? That's why they're devs! That's their job, it's how they feed their family. That's what they've been doing for years, with a metric crapton of experience in gaming, development, industry knowledge, and in most cases, formal training to back it up. If it were so easy that any armchair hack could do it, maybe even you would have a genre-defining game on the market. I don't even hold myself to the standard of knowing better than the devs what's in the best long-term interest of the game's well-being, why would I trust you over them? Especially when I'm having a blast?

Turn this around for a minute. What do you do for a living? Whatever it is, how much weight would you put in an e-mail from Matt Miller telling you how to do your job? If he called me up and told me how to support a datacenter, would I listen to his thoughts? As long as he wasn't spewing them at me with vitriol, sure. But in the end, I'm going to do what I feel is best given my education, training, and experience. I expect no less from the developers, and neither should you.

I remember around a year or so ago, there was yet another of these blowups over something totally insignificant in the grand scheme of things. I distinctly remember posting, "In a year or two, no one will even remember this argument took place." Hell, I can't even remember what it was about now, but whatever it was, it was a gross insult to the players, people were leaving in droves, and if you listened to the usual suspects, you would have thought that the game were on its last legs because of whatever grave injustice had been committed. And yet, here we all are.

I know for a fact that in another year, we'll probably have had at least two or three more hornet nests stirred up. People won't even remember the great "solo Incarnate" debates. Who cares about that when Issue 21 is going to destroy the game? And Issue 22, well, that's just a slap in the face! And Issue 23 just proves that they don't listen to the players at all. The silver lining is that through it all, here we are, the game just keeps getting better and better, and the vast majority of players are blissfully ignorant of the things that we keep being told on the forums by a self-selected vocal minority are so important to hate.

I don't care what you trust, it doesn't make it any less true. And I guess it's a good thing you're not in charge of City of Heroes, because I've always felt that the devs have a pretty good intuitive grasp of the principle.

Yes, that's exactly what I was saying. Just as much as you're saying that the Incarnate system should be scrapped because psychology is fake, that's what I was getting at.

Because this is an MMORPG. Like it or not, one of the founding principles of this genre is that a bunch of people are going to be playing together. The more people play together, the more enticing this particular game is going to be within the genre it is being sold. Therefore, it is beneficial to the game and its developers to reward group-based activities more than solo activities to encourage people to participate in the former.

I'll let Positron answer this for you himself. He's the expert and explains it better than I could.

My main beef isn't that people want a solo option for getting this stuff. It's that they feel entitled to it, that they act like it's a slap in the face that they haven't gotten it yet.

There's a huge difference between these two types of posts:

I can't really argue with that. While I might disagree with it, it brings up some valid points and comes off as a reasonable and polite request, one that the devs can consider in planning out future content in the game. Yes, they'll probably get some hostile responses. Hell, other than Steelclaw's posts, what doesn't get hostile responses here? The poster would have to realize, though, that he or she is touching on something semi-controversial and roll with it.

On the other hand:

This is nothing but pure flamebait. The poster is looking for a fight. Although they basically have the same opinion of the trials, when I see this kind of thing, I think it's unnecessary and stupid. Also, if I were a dev and I read this, I would quickly file it in my mental trashcan, not really an opinion worth bearing in mind going forward.

No, psychological studies actually back this up, and it's pretty durn easy to test objectively. Everyone is different, but collectively, it's not so hard to predict what a large group of people--such as, say, a game's player base--is like. While the exact execution of the principle of long-term rewards can be screwed up, and not everything they do will make you personally happy, the principle is valid. Why do you think that almost every game follows that formula or a quick shot of lots of rewards when starting out, followed by a decreasing, but generally escalating, stream of rewards as you move into the medium- and long-term game?

I still think you're missing the point. The devs want to have long-term rewards in the game. You and others keep arguing that nothing should be gated behind long-term goals. "I'm not saying nothing," you might say, but if not this, then what? When badges are gated, people gripe. When enhancements (purple IOs) are gated, people gripe. When powers are gated (Incarnates), people gripe. When things that don't even affect your gameplay are gated such as costumes and auras, you guessed it... Gripe. So yeah, basically, you're arguing that nothing should be gated.

"Oh, but what I meant is that it shouldn't be gated behind this," you're probably thinking. If not this, then what? When they give a path through collecting stuff that takes a long time (because these are long-term goals, remember?), people gripe. Would you be happier if they gated it behind AE? I can guarantee you that if they figured out about how many tickets you'd have to collect so that it would take an average player a couple of months or so to earn it, we'd be right back where we are now with the people trying to earn it all in three days complaining about how it's a slap in the face.

I'm not stupid, and I'm not immune to wanting everything RIGHT THIS SECOND!!! But I also want to be having fun three months from now after the initial excitement has died down and we may still be a few months out from the next issue release. You think you're different and that you could handle having everything piled on you at once without getting bored quickly? Most people do; such is the diabolical nature of desire. But as arrogant as you think it is, this really is a case of the devs knowing better than you how to make you happy in the long term.

Are you by any chance a parent? If so, you ought to already know this. When your kid wants a new game or toy, do you always immediately run right out and buy it for them? Hopefully, even if you're financially able to do that, you don't. Hopefully you understand that doing so leads to having a privileged little snot who thinks he or she is entitled to have every whim satisfied immediately, and worse, that it won't be long before your little snot's expectations will exceed your resources even if you're rich as Bill Gates. When that little snot gets older, he or she will inevitably go out and try to get all the goodies up front. The big snot will end up saddled with thousands in credit card debt, or worse, end up in jail for stealing or getting into drugs or whatever. Instead, hopefully you're raising your kids to know that sometimes you have to wait and work for the good stuff.

And all too often, these forums remind me of a bunch of screaming kids. "If you loved us, you would let us have it!" "That's not fair!" "You don't even know anything about me!" "I'm going to run away!" (Note, this isn't meant to say you can't criticize the game; I'm referring to the tone of the posts.)

A 100 pound gorilla?

For what it's worth, they indicated that the actual NPC wasn't set in stone; it might very well change. I have to say, though, that I agree. I don't mind humor in the game, but this just seems over the top silly to me. Mind you, if it goes through, I won't be seething mad or anything, not even miffed. It's mildly amusing, but I just think that the joke will wear off quickly and we'll be left with an immersion-shattering non sequitur, and new players without the background will be like, "What the--!!?"

I won't be posting complaints or petitioning to get him removed or anything. I'd just rather them use a more plausible contact.

I'm not telling you how to play the game or how to have fun. I'm explaining to you why the developers don't just give everyone everything immediately or trivially easily and make people work for it.

Here's a nice visual illustration of the idea:



Maybe you're different, but it's kinda sounding like you're not. Even if so, this chart is pretty representative of your average naked ape. I'll point out yet again that I am not saying that running 40 trials in a row is fun. It's a mind-numbing exercise in tedium. What you seem to keep missing, though, is that if it takes you 40 trials to earn something, this was never the intention of the developers to be what you have to go through. If, however, you run two trials per week over the course of less than four months, you get your shinies without that mind-numbing tedium. Why that's so difficult for people to get is beyond me.

If you like running 40 trials in a row, knock yourself out; hey, that's more chances for me to jump on a team. If you don't, then forcing yourself to is sheer insanity. I'm not saying don't do it, but I am saying that your complaints really aren't terribly compelling.

Let's just hypothetically say that the developers changed their minds to suit Anchor. "Run one BAF, and everything will be unlocked across your account for all characters!" they say. So tonight, you run a BAF, and *poof!* now you have everything. Costumes, Incarnate slots, the works.

Okay, what the hell are you going to do now? Run umpteen WSTs that were trivially easy before, except now, you're essentially in iddqd mode, face zero chance of defeat, and don't even have to try? How many Incarnate Armor clad characters will you create before that gets boring?

Here's a cool little experiment to try. Get a buddy who will humor you for a while and who will let you win at tic-tac-toe every game. Play it until you get bored and don't want to any more. How long did that take? Would you pay $15 a month to do that? Because people who complain about how "grindy" Incarnate stuff is should be careful what they wish for. Without long-term rewards, this game would quickly achieve major suckage status, and much as you'd like to believe otherwise, it's physically impossible to churn out new content as fast as you'd like to consume it.

I have two responses to this.

First of all, that's a pretty narrow definition of "progressing." The best counterexample I can think of offhand is that there is a sizable contingent of players who consider the number of badges they collect as "progressing." This isn't just a facetious argument, I've been around for a long time and I've seen firsthand the s*** that hits the fan when the devs do something that affects people's ability to earn and/or keep badges. Remember the ragequits that happened when they pulled all of those Architect Entertainment badges?

Yet there are a lot of badges gated by team-only content. I really do fail to see how this is much different. It even affects gameplay: In order to get the Gaes of the Kind Ones badge, you have to complete Katie Hannon's task force, which is nigh impossible solo. Yes, technically, it may be possible, but it certainly isn't possible across all build and powerset combinations. And it most certainly is impossible to start it without a team.

I don't want them to see a "solo path" made available to earn the Gaes of the Kind Ones badge without teaming up. Personally, I don't see what the big deal is with hopping on a Katie Hannon task force and just getting it done. Similarly I just don't see what the big deal is with hopping on trial teams and getting your Incarnate stuff unlocked is. Does it take longer? Sure, but such is the price of having those specific shinies; you have to do the work and earn them.

Second, I have to point out that none of the Incarnate stuff excludes you from progressing your character from level 1 to 50. I'm not just being technical here; I don't care how many trials you do, you will not reach level 51, period, end of story. Yes, people try to act like a "level shift" is level 51, but it's not. Let's be honest here, as a non-shifted level 50, everything in the game is pretty durn easy. The only thing I can think of where being a level-shifted 50 is practically necessary is... well, more Incarnate stuff, most of which is team-oriented. I guess what I'm saying is that if you don't care for the stuff past getting your level shift, what practical difference does it make whether you're level-shifted or not? It's not like Maria Jenkins is going to tell you, "Pfff, come back when you're 50+1, noob."

That's fine and good for victimless crimes. I think the main debate is over what one considers "victimless." Obviously, it cannot be extended in general. I mean, murder is illegal, and hitmen are really expensive. If we just made murder legal, would that mean there'd be no more need for hitmen? There is the concept of the cure being worse than the disease.

In my opinion, such is the case of RMT. I don't want anyone doing it. Not NCsoft, not Chinese gold farmers, not "Johns" who buy the stuff. I don't have any power over the Chinese gold farmers. As for the Johns, I'm not too worried; most of them learn why RMT is bad the hard way. However, NCsoft I do have at least some power over as a paying customer, and hoping that most people agree with me to the extent that they won't do it. Moreover, NCsoft also has pseudo-police powers in the matter in that they are able to directly address the RMT problem through mechanics to make it difficult to near impossible to do, and banning accounts that engage in the practice.

Fair enough. And when you're bored to tears because there's nothing left to do after a month or so, we'll welcome you back. Yes, we're just that cool.

They were eaten by grues and replaced with even cooler devs.

On a more serious note, have you ever considered that the intention was never to let you "tart up" every single 50 that you have? I'd say that having two or three that are kitted out in the month and a half since I20's launch is a pretty fair rate of getting stuff done.

Don't like grinding? I know this is a radical notion, but don't grind. Where's the fire? If you're sick to the teeth of the Incarnate trials, stop doing them! How about working on some task forces? ("But there aren't any task force teams!" Make one! Since this is such a huge problem, surely you can find seven other people who are sick to the teeth of Incarnate trials!) Or roll up an alt on one of the new servers available to you? Or god forbid, how about hopping over to Atlas Park and running a costume contest or something?

Trust me, as someone who deliberately took about a year and a half to get his first level 50 character, all that stuff you think you're "missing" will still be there when you're ready. And you can't use the excuse that "I can't participate in high-level content," because per your own admission, you already have two "tarted up" level 50s.

You people really need to get out of this mentality that you have to have everything RIGHT. THIS. SECOND. I mean, you don't have to, but I can imagine that it would be quite miserable always operating in that mode, and it just seems so needlessly frustrating to me. Here's a little perspective. It will probably take me six months to a year to get my first "tarted up" level 50 character. At that point, do you know what the difference between yours that you got in two weeks at the expense of going insane whilst grinding and mine will be? Not very damn much.

I agree, it is effing awesome.

Need a SB?

I've seen Taxibots use it during badge tours to help heroes get close to badges that require difficult precise balance to stand on, such as that one on the guy's fist in Galaxy City, or on that other guy's hand in the Rikti War Zone. Belle doesn't like teleporting people into mid-air and letting them fall to the ground, even for a badge.

I suspect that it's because it's a lot simpler to plop an NPC somewhere, toggle a flag to make him or her interactive, and write up what goes into the dialog boxes than it is to design a whole new interface. One can be done in a few hours; the other would require at least several days, resources from other design groups, plus a lot of extra QA and testing time to make sure it didn't break something else. I can't remember exactly where it was said, but I know I've heard recently that the suggestions that really make their radar the most are the ones that don't require what they call "new tech." If they can use existing conventions in the game, or can be accomplished with minor tweaks (such as plopping a new contact down), those are the ones they like the most, as it allows them to focus more time, effort, and resources on getting more done.

I thought it was reflected well when, during the Ustream, someone mentioned adding another option to the Null the Gull. It was phrased as, "What would it take for you to..." Black Scorpion thought about it a few seconds and said, "Four hours or so with no one interrupting me," and sounded like he could quite possibly get it done before 20.5 launches. If he had to go through getting the option added to another interface instead of just throwing another line of pseudo-HTML in a dialog box, I'm pretty sure there's no way it would even be close to happening.

Like I said, though, I think we could have the best of both worlds. If they made a merit vendor, Null the Gull, field analysts, and any other option-setting NPCs a phonable contact, it would be a lot better I think, because you wouldn't have to hunt people down to set your options, and you could do it "on the fly," so to speak. "Oh, I don't mind lab maps, hang on a second so I can call Null and turn Speed Boost back on." In fact, really, if the contacts are callable, you don't even need to have the models cluttering up the city. You could have all of them be like Penny and Message Man in Praetoria; heard but never seen.

And you bore me. Wallow in your misery and tell yourself whatever heinous things you imagine about me to make you feel more important, I don't care. I like how the game is going, I have for a long time, I'm not having these problems that seem to be destroying you, everyone I run across in game seems to be pretty cool and pleased, and I've got better things to do than to bicker pointlessly with you.

By the way, my box is an Intel Core i7-2600K quad-core hyperthreaded CPU, 16 GB DDR3 1600 RAM, an ATI Radeon HD 5800, and two G.SKILL Phoenix Pro 120 GB SSDs, all plugged into an ASUS Maximus IV Extreme mobo, connected to the Internet via a Comcast 22 Mbps Internet connection and running 64-bit Windows 7. When I'm running City of Heroes, I disable active virus scanning and try to keep background processes to a minimum. Try that. Maybe you won't be so quick to make impossible to justify assumptions about my gameplay experience.

I can confirm this. I'll let you share the context in which your name was brought up if you want.

Also it might be worth mentioning that they indicated that the new auras (Magnetic, Slime, Ghosts, and Boils) were tintable.

Edit: Great notes, by the way. If I hadn't have gotten caught up at work late, I would have either recorded the audio or scribbled down notes myself. [censored] 12-hour days!