The_Moog_EU

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I do have to ask again.. are you going to put forward any evidence that Inv tanks underperform compared to the other tank ATs?

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In xp/time terms for me it does, I was Inv/ss to start and no way could she make the xp/time that my fire, stone or ice does. Damage auras count for alot imo.

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I was thinking of 'underperforming' in terms of some kind of generalised 'tankability' factor
But yes, the damage auras are very nice and the damage output of a fire tank is still pretty good.
I do love my fire tank

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Thank you for the advice. I did actually state that you can't reach the cap WITHOUT tough.Which implies I know all about tough. I also mentioned that I have it. In fact in the very quote you list I mention that I didn't have it before I5 and which implies I do have it now.

I've just reread it to see if maybe I wrote in an illegible way but no, it's as clear as day.

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I was going by this statement:
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With tough and proper slotting you hit the S/L resist cap, while also having quite high defense.

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I`m actually not sure about that. Its possible im confusing energy with S/L. For instance against Nemisis minions, they could never even scratch me, no matter how many they were. Now, I have to be a bit more crareful.

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Edit:
I do have to ask again.. are you going to put forward any evidence that Inv tanks underperform compared to the other tank ATs?
It is what you are going to need if you want any changes made.

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With tough and proper slotting you hit the S/L resist cap, while also having quite high defense.

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I`m actually not sure about that. Its possible im confusing energy with S/L. For instance against Nemisis minions, they could never even scratch me, no matter how many they were. Now, I have to be a bit more crareful. I dont seem to be quite as incvulnerable in a large crowd.
Oh and I did mention that I cant get there without tough.
I never had tough before i5.
But that could be my imagination I suppose.

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Try a few builds in a hero builder (Mids is a good one).
With Tough it is quite easy to hit the S/L cap for tanks.
Personally I skipped Tough and went the Aid Self/Dull Pain route.

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We get hit too often.

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Compared to what?
With Invincibility and Tough Hide you can get some decent defense in place, with the resistances on top you can really build some survivability.
(Not to mention what you can do with some of the IO Sets out there)

As for Unyielding my guess would be that if the Devs removed the -5% def penalty from that they would simply remove 5% from Invincibility instead.
Then we would be back were we started.
Except worse off IMO as you wouldn't have the option of turning off Unyielding if you didn't need it at the time.

An Inv tank does tend to be a late bloomer but it in no way under performs compared to the others IMO.

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Max, unyeilding gives you a -5% debuff. It is operational the whole time unyeilding is up. If it`s up you get hit 5% more than if it isn`t up. 100% of the time.

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Here is the guide to defense and accuracy :
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showf...Number=5759413

Well worth a read if you want to make some kind of case here.
Or even just to improve your build.

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Defense does not work that way.

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Defence may not. Unyeilding does. We get 5% more hits than we would do otherwise. Back when we were invulnerable that had a relevence. Now it doesn`t.

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'-5% defense' not equal to 'hit 5% more'
Defense does not work the way you seem to think it does.
There are a few good guides on the subject about. You should look one up.

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A Tankers damage is mediocre at best. We cant (generally) AOE.

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Yes, this is by design. The Scrappers and the Blasters are the damage dealers and tank damage will always pale by comparison.

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So if we can`t take the damage offered to us then in what way do we match the other team members who are functioning fully?

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The tank benefits the team by being able to take way more damage than any other AT and by being able to focus enemy fire upon themselves.
This an Inv/ tank can most certainly do.

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That`s the point im really making. And yes Ive made it before.

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I think I've missed your point...

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So again I ask, in what way are we equal to the other members of the team if we can`t do our proper jobs: ie get into the front lines, stand toe to toe with the toughest bad guys and take the damage? We may perform well. We may contribute. But without our ability to withstand the damage we haven`t got anything going for us.

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You are going to have to provide evidence that tanks are unable to fulfill their role.
This you have failed to do so far.

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On the USA boards, the current cry is to drop the -5 debuff on unyeilding. Would that help us? Don`t know but we take 5% more damage than we should and 5% of a lot I guess builds up. Maybe that`s an answer.

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Defense does not work that way.

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I dont believe you can Tank against non S/L in anyway near the way you can against S/L itself.

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Of course not, and I didn't say that.
The strong point of the Inv/ tank is the massive resistance to S/L damage, which allows you to almost ignore all enemies which do that damage type.
Against everything else you have to use tactics and play smart.

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I`m not saying that I can`t change tactics to win the day. I can and do.

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Then what's the problem?

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I`m saying, why should my Tank have to face opposition time and again, with my primary virtually crippled when no other AT (that I know of ) has to do the same?

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Crippled?
It certainly isn't. (IMO of course)
My Inv tank can and has tanked for 8 player teams, (including the States TF) and recently soloed through several of the new Rikti EBs and missions.
And I am really not seeing your problem here.

Edit:
I'm getting some serious Déjà vu from this thread..

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I don't see the Rikti doing that much in the way of Psi damage. Only a few seem to have psi attacks that I have seen.
Anyway; Psi is always going to be the tanks main enemy, this is not going to change.

For non-S/L damage then a mixture of resistance and defence is needed. And good positioning with Invulnerability can be key.
With good defence and some backup from the team an Inv/ tank can tank for an 8 persion team without too much trouble. (As long as Mother Mayhem isn't in the area)

There are several IOs which effect minions.. One provides +Res(all) and the other +Def(all).
But only if your minions are close by you.

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was gr8 fun

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For the fire tank..

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I've not found anything on the heroside of the game thus far that would make me want more than 1 KB IO.

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The Rikti Pylons knocked back through one KB IO on each hit, that was on test though.
Not sure if they do now.

But apart from them I can't think of many...

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Stamina 4xSlot(yeah 4 times due to the end drain)

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Err.. what?
That 4th slot would have such a miniscule difference (especially with lvl 50 IOs) that it's a total waste of a slot.
Put it elsewhere.

With issue 9 forget Acrobatics and save up for a KB-Protection IO or two. One works for most situations.

Sadly there are no up to date guides about, although there was one on the US forums recently specifically about fire tanks and IOs.. can't find it right now however.

I could pop in...
Are you planning on just doing the Croatoa ones or branching out?

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Question. If you complete 2 runs with the same alt, and do not exit the last mission....will you automatically get the recipe, when you log back in 3 hours later?

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I believe all you have to do is not select a reward from the list.
Then relog on later and select it...

I can be there...

Danger Pixie, 32 mind/kin controller
Slethis Dark/Dark Defender for the second 2

Looks like we will have a good line up

1. Slethis, Dark/Dark defender
2. Magnus Ridolph, lvl 28 DM/DA scrapper
3. Cosmic Cunundrum (posibly)
4. Bounty, emp defender
5. Angelic Agent, Blaster
6. Scrat, ice/mace tank

I have a few other possibles who might turn up..

My contact has reported a large threat from the Council on Striga island.
If you feal you have what it takes to tackle this danger then sign up now in this thread, or pop by Ernie on Striga.

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I intended it to be without Stamina and take the Patron attacks, but even at lvl 12 with almost nothing but end reducers and Assault and Maneuvers running (different to the build here), I can only buff my 3 bots and 3 party members before I run out of end. That's even with my toggles off, never mind doing it in the heat of battle.

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Wait til you get Dispersion Bubble, that uses as much endurance as assault and tactics together.
I have two end-reds each in assault and tactics and 3 in dispersion bubble.
Also an end-red in Deflection and Insulation shield helps you keep bubbling.

Stamina-less is doable but does need very heavy slotting with End-Red SOs.
IOs and inventions should help a great deal as well I think.

Unless Photon Grenade has been improved greatly recently I would skip it.
Your protector bots have a better version of it anyway.

I wouldn't bother with acrobatics either, your bots should be getting all the agro.

Also, you might want to get stamina if you are going to use the personal attacks.
They do use a lot of endurance.
Plus with Assault, Tactics and Dispersion Bubble running you would have trouble.
(these will all need to be heavily slotted for end-reduction if you want to go stamina-less in any case)

Repulsion Bomb is not a good power for a bots mm.. might want to skip that one.
To get the best out of them you need to group enemies in a bunch as much as possible.

Hmm,, all the tanker sets start slow.. and if you're expecting something to suddenly change at 20 you are going to be disapointed.

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i dont have anywhere near that. maximum i have is 15-20 mil
so i think your build is out of the question for me but i was thinking, if i acheived perma dull pain (should cost far less then 100 mil) would my bumped up health be as good as psi/energy defence?

(sorry about the weird quote box, havnt used it on these forums before)

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Speeding up dull pain would help a great deal.

Another possibility is getting aid self as well, with a few interrupt duration reductions it isn't too hard to use between damage ticks and can keep you upright.

Also increasing regeneration as much as possible will help.
Can get costly to do this one though.

The plus point here is that they help against all damage types instead of just one.
And Psi damage is not actually that common in the game.

I'll help out.
Dr. Liah Philips inv/ss tank for the first

Danger Pixie Mind/Kin Controller for the second.

I have a level 50 Inv tank who could help out.
Dr. Liah Philips
Stick us on the reserve list just in case

Pencil my inv/ss tank down as a reserve if you would.
I'll pop by just in case...