The_Foo

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My favorite moment in CoV (think I was around level 10 at the time):

25% Health, very low Endurance, high Fury, only a single Inspiration left (Defense), spawn of 3 minions in front of me. Rest is recharge and I'm about to hit it when I think screw it, I'm going in. Luckily the first guy dropped a Heal Inspiration. Not sure if I wouldn't made it without it. Fury makes you do dumb things.

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Wait, that's not a smart thing to do? I think I've lost all perspective!

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Not only are Brutes adicting, but most of us dont seem to care too much about debt (mostly) either.

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Totally. But I'm noticing that the debt I pick up from SMASHing like crazy tends to melt away pretty quick. How, you may ask?

...by SMASHing some more, of course.

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SMASH: the cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems!

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You're wasting your time. Reason, fairness, and other silly things like that are foreign concepts to developers. Remember, such foes are the equivalents their characters, and they're not going to gimp their characters vs. the Enemy (players).

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I trust you'll be happy to learn that I changed Ballista based on feedback in this thread.

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Hmm. I predict someone, possibly Dogface, will find a way to turn that into a negative.

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Ballista is a Toggle Dropping *******!

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Yeah, he is. He was designed to be as close to a Player Hero as we could make him. How do you guys like the Toggle Drop on him? Is it too nasty or does it add a nice challenge?

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Don't much like it. You need to keep PvP mechanics, especially ones that are highly controversial, out of PvE no matter what.

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Quoted for emphasis.

Toggle-dropping is annoying as all crap. Keep it out of PvE, and, pleasepleaseplease, look into replacing it with something else in PvP, too!

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When Jack got the Jake Emmet mission the first time, the model was...not flattering. It's random within a group of male, casual NPCs which one you get, so there's nothing I can do about it! (I did all the newspaper missions, dialogue, entry text, etc.) I still seem to have my job though. Must be those pictures of Statesman and Recluse having tea and crumpets* together...

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The first time I got this mission, Jake Emmet was a... dumpy, grey-haired man. I thought it was hilarious (due, of course, to being nothing like him in real life!) and laughed. I was disappointed when he was a svelt black man on my next run-through.

I'm hoping one day to see him as a Mekman.

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We are Tanks not tanks... notice I captialized Tank. Tank is the CoH archetype. tank is the MMO class/role of meatshield. I want to be a Tank not a tank.

I wanna be a fighter... one who is touger than he is strong. Slow and powerfull with a heavy fist and slow feet. The big guy with tough armor and a strong arm. I dont want to be a wall of hitpoints walking around screaming obscenities at folks and relying on people to keep me alive.

I want to Tank not tank.

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Well, some of us are 6'5" masochistic dominatrices, light and nimble on our feet, who run into the middle of a sea of pain and misery, and deal a little back out, simply because that's what we enjoy.

But that's neither here nor there.

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Say, have you met Ivy's Brute?

I recall quite painfully levelling up my first CoH character. I made pains to sell DOs to the correct DO store, and there were no costume slots to splurge on.

This feels very similar to that. I expect things to pick up around level 30-something.

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In either case, "give us higher defenses" or "give us more damage" may not be a viable answer.

I just don't want the total result of all the testing effort to boil down to "Told ya!"


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Well the funny part is we must do this as impartially as possible. So we can't be going in looking to prove anything. We are going in to test, if that test suggests a problem, ie removing the tank actually improves the groups performance, then we need to look to the tests and try and explain why followed by testing that hypothesis. Then after and if we find why we can work on how to fix it. We really should do our best not to go in expecting anything, I know it's not easy but it is best that way.

So I strongly suggest we not jump the gun and start coming up with fixes for a problem that at this point is only speculated at.

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One very interesting test I was thinking of is to drop the fifth wheel entirely from the run and see what happens.

I really like Foo's AV concept. It might be an enjoyable experiment with our 50s. I might raise a note of caution on that one, however. If we find that a duo combination massively outperforms all others either the DEVs or other players may be tempted to call for nerfs.

I have no preconceived notions on what we'll see right now. I do propose that before we run the tests, we PM the DEVs and ask them if anything we have in the test will bias it in their opinion. After all, if we're trying to show them what the situation is, we don't want them to diss it because of something stupid we overlooked.

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Agreed. I'm not looking for nerfs here. It may make sense for us to try and base the experiment around something we "know" the Devs to be happy with overall, which is why I figured the Defender+1 test might be interesting.

'course, this week's "happy with" is next week's "on the chopping block".

Oh, I'll also suggest another test.

Defender + <AT here> vs. AV

Back in I4, we could take down almost any AV with a Defender and my Inv/EM Tank, barring ones with big heals, or bubbles they use at low HP, like Nemesis.

So, I figure we do a test to see if a Defender + Tank/Blaster/Controller/Scrapper can take down an AV.

If that's untenable, then add a second standard teammate and see what happens.

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See, and when I read: Tanker = Frontline Fighter in the manual, I don't think of them as "support ATs." But then again, my only other MMO experiance was about 9 months of SWG, so I don't have Tank=Meatshield ingrained into my brain.

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Ah! See a lot of us thought we were front line troops as well, but Statesman came along and put us right on that one. We are a Support AT (apparently)

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I thought Tankers were the "supported" AT.

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I've seen a lot of complaints about this so I brought it up before we went live. We changed it so certain toggle effects fade out but it didn't make it into live. Dark Armor shouldn't be so bad anymore once this gets updated. The same goes for Mud Pots.

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I will pay you to do the same for Superspeed. Seriously. Tell me where, and I will send you, uh... barterable goods or something.

I have a 31 Ill/Kin Controller that should hit 32 soon. He can help out.

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Psst, Jonyu, could you have a word with the others about doing something to make Tanks work in PvP, too? I don't think any AT's entire PvP worth should be based upon a single power, in this case Taunt, do you?

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Apparently you've never had your squishy two-shotted by an SS/Inv running Rage and who knows what other team buffs. Well I have and it suprised the hell out of me. I spent the rest of the match hiding from that guy but he was everwhere. First time a tanker ever hunted me

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If you could buff a Rikti Monkey up that much they'd be a threat, too.

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The single-target Taunt is not supposed to work in PvP. If it is, it will be fixed in the next build.

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Psst, Jonyu, could you have a word with the others about doing something to make Tanks work in PvP, too? I don't think any AT's entire PvP worth should be based upon a single power, in this case Taunt, do you?

Yes, I've just elected you the Tanker rep, too.

I doubt it's intentional. Tanks had their auto-Taunt removed completely in PvP. It would be frighteningly unfair for Brutes to keep theirs.

Frankly, I'd think that smackin' a sucka in the head is Taunt enough for most.

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The Devs effed up on the Tank AT from the beginning and they've never figured out a way to make it work properly.

"Tanks were meant to be aggro managers" - so they gave them single-target Taunt and slightly increased threat in their attacks? Meanwhile, they could also get >100% RES.

The design was broken from the start, and every subsequent change has been made in an attempt to figure out how they should work.

So never mind the "November to May" period, and the unfortunately high-horse tone of your post, Tanks have never worked the way their design intended, and their intended design has changed just as often.

Frankly, like I said previously, the Devs should just take some of that "Screw you if you don't like I5 or ED" courage and redo the entire Tank AT. Make it something that works and feels comic-booky, and doesn't look like a Scrapper that prefers to be hit than to hit things.

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You know, for months I disagreed with Foo, but I find myself agreeing with him now.

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That's because I've always been awesome, and you're now just realising it.

It's quite alright. True genius is rarely commended in its time.

They don't say, "Foo is uber" for nothing, you know.

...it usually costs me a fiver.

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I think the new Tanker will play much the same role as the old Tankers...just with smaller numbers.

Players who do not come to the boards (and who do not remember the 'old days') will not kick Tankers out of their group for Tanking one-third to one-half of a spawn. They will see that as the Tankers' fair share.

Now that Controllers can no longer perma-lock one third of a spawn (and since a large spawn can't usually be disposed of before an AoE Hold wears off), the Tanker's new, smaller role is still desirable and viable.

On Live, I still hear players advising the Leaders of groups, "We need a Tanker" right after "We need a Healer".

The new Tanker catchphrase is "Keep me alive, and I'll keep (17 of) them off you" as opposed to "Stay back here and start Blasting when I say go."

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That's silly. You're basically saying that people won't notice that a Scrapper can occupy the same amount of enemies as a Tank.

The Devs effed up on the Tank AT from the beginning and they've never figured out a way to make it work properly.

"Tanks were meant to be aggro managers" - so they gave them single-target Taunt and slightly increased threat in their attacks? Meanwhile, they could also get >100% RES.

The design was broken from the start, and every subsequent change has been made in an attempt to figure out how they should work.

So never mind the "November to May" period, and the unfortunately high-horse tone of your post, Tanks have never worked the way their design intended, and their intended design has changed just as often.

Frankly, like I said previously, the Devs should just take some of that "Screw you if you don't like I5 or ED" courage and redo the entire Tank AT. Make it something that works and feels comic-booky, and doesn't look like a Scrapper that prefers to be hit than to hit things.

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It is a BUG that the powers that Henchmen gain when you upgrade them are not affected by Enhancements.

Training Room should be getting a version soon where this is fixed.

It was not noticed until it was "too late" to change the final-live build. Please play with it on Training Room to see if your Masterminds have become TOO powerful.

Another bug (also being fixed) is when MM Henchmen can't affect other players in PVP.

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That's funny. I was assured by posters that this was either an intentional oversight to gimp the MM, or the Dev team ignoring feedback because they're evil! This "time" you speak of running out, is it some kind of precious but obscure commodity?

Thanks. You're welcome. Hope it helps folks out.

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Hagis hit the nail on the head IMO

My Ice/Axe tank keeps groups safe by keeping dangerous boss mobs on their [censored] for the majority of the fight, I can't tank the whole spawn but do I really need to tank Minions?

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So, if Scrappers are the Dev-appointed Boss-killers, then the Tank's role is to protect the Scrapper so that he can do his job?

Hands up, any Scrappers in the audience: do you need a bodyguard to kill a Boss?

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Foo, we losing you for good to the world of brutes?

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I'm pretty much already gone. I haven't played my level 50 Tank or even thought of making a Tank since just after I5.

I bought this game to play in a online world of superheroes, and the Tank just doesn't fit the bill anymore. The AT as a whole never really made sense to me, what with the terribly poor implementation of Taunt, and the decision to make what is supposed to be a bruising tough guy is a guy that uses harsh language to get people's attention, or fights and gains vastly more attention than their actual threat deserves.

It's an AT that's predicated upon the Devs' willingness to subvert the AI to make the AT "work".

That's just crap.

You wanna know why Tanks don't work in PvP? It's because they don't really work in PvE. They've just been propped up with enough clumsy game mechanics so as to appear a functional AT.

The Devs have shown remarkable courage/brazenness in overhauling the entire defenses of the game, and in hoisting ED upon the playerbase, yet they're perfectly willing to let Tanks pretend to be something they aren't through whatever AI crutch they can muster to make it so.

Why would I start playing a Tank now? Can't a Scrapper get enough aggro to "tank" on the terms Statesman outlines above? If I really want to rely on an AI kludge to gain aggro, I can always take Provoke and slot it with the marvellous surplus of slots I now have from my single-slottable- enhancement powers.

Heck, give it an issue and I'll just port my Brute over from CoV and he can do everything a Tank reasonably can be expected to do, plus I get to do more damage!

There's no reason I can find to play a Tank anymore, aside from stubborness, ignorance, masochism, or lack of access to CoV.

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I would much rather hear Cryptics explanation of our intended role and how they see us accomplishing it. Since we have obviously been wrong by their direction, I would really like for States and company to tell us what we are supposed to contribute to a team, and how that contribution stands out beyond all other AT's.

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Tankers manage aggro better than any other Archetype. They also have the highest combination of hit points and defenses in the game. Their role is to take the brunt of a spawn's aggro just long enough in order for the rest of the team to be able to eliminate the mobs.

Should a skilled Tanker be able to corral EVERY mob? With a lot of skill, it should be possible - but it's certainly not required to be a good Tank. As long as the Tanker can hold onto aggro so that his teammates are facing less than they'd normally face (i.e. 3 minions), then the team has an advantage. Namely, each teammate can quickly eliminate his opposition...and then come to the Tanker's aid at the end.

I just played a Tanker with the following group (actually, at the request of a PM)...

Inv/Fire tanker (32, SKed to 49)
Level 50 Elec/Elec Blaster (it was his mission, set on Rugged)
Level 32 Peacebringer (SKed to 48 or so).
Level 48 MA/Inv scrapper
Level 50 Fire/Kin controller
Level 35 Earth/empathy controller (SKed up to 48)
Level 49 Energy/energy blaster

We faced the Carnival of Shadows. Typically, I'd start combat by Taunting any Strongmen in the spawn. I knew that I could handle their damage best. I'd usually catch some other minions and lts. I'd end up with a good 1/3 of the spawn focused on me, while the rest of my group disposed of the others. Whenever I saw a teammate enter the red, I'd either Taunt the mobs off them or hit the mobs to get their aggro.

End result? Well, no one was that familiar with their builds. The Controller was defeated by getting too close to another spawn. The Peacebringer carelessly tossed off attacks and ended up aggroing too much. After those two defeats, we settled down and functioned fine.

Admittedly, my own health dropped down to a 1/3 several times. I'd get a little concerned, but usually I had Dull Pain ready.

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I have to say, this displeases me greatly.

As before, the role is "you're an MMO AT, not a comic book one, so stop trying to be something you're not", except that Tanks have far less defenses to accomplish this role than they did previously.

In other words: the Tank is a far less effective Controller.

Good luck, Tanks!

Great overview of history, and very factual (at least as far as I remember my studies of history ).

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Personally, I'm a fan of shadows.

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Wait? What does that mean?

*Paanics*

*Searches franticly*

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He's just saying he likes Stalkers, is all...