Texan

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My taunt is well slotted (3 taunt enhancers) and I have 1 taunt enhancer in each primary attack.

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How would you know? I mean with 3 Taunt Enhancers in Taunt, you're basically never giving your attacks time to Taunt if you're using Taunt itself regularly.

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We started slow, just seeing when the taunt effect would show up for various things and how long it would last. Before we got going full out we tested each of the attacks and he told me when he got taunted. I wasn't keeping track of the numbers, but it was a fairly low percentage chance to taunt, but when he did get taunted it was something on the order or 8-10 seconds without his assault running.

During the fight, I put taunt on to get him initially locked on, then just beat on him as much as possible. If we were standing toe-to-toe and duking it out, I usually didn't have to taunt again, I got enough of an effect out of gauntlet to keep him taunted. If we were bouncing around and moving, gauntlet wasn't enough - I needed the ranged taunt.

The taunt aura, BTW, did nothing whatsoever, so I turned invinc off for most of the fight to conserve endurance.

Gauntlet alone isn't going to keep your teammates 100% safe, I think that's pretty clear, but I've never been particularly opposed to taking taunt on a tanker once they are strong enough to take the aggro.

Incidentally, this is my PvE build - I'm not at all optimized for PvP.

I took my 50 inv/ss into an arena fight against a 50 bs/regen and played "protect the squishy" with a lev 30-ish MM. Through 15 minutes, I was able to keep the bs/regen perma-taunted through a combination of taunt and gauntlet. The power "taunt" was definitely much more reliable, but I was getting respectable taunt times out of the attacks when they did trigger.

My taunt is well slotted (3 taunt enhancers) and I have 1 taunt enhancer in each primary attack. I had no accuracy in taunt, which I though would be a problem at first, but I didn't notice any problems. I also only had 1 acc on each attack, but was running perma-rage and FA (except for a few periods where I got low on endurance).

In 15-20 minutes, he managed to kill the MM once by breaking LOS, then coming back in with BU+headsplitter and a follow up before I could get taunt back on.

Interestingly, I was able to keep him taunted even when he "accidentally" MoG'ed, suggesting that while taunt isn't auto-hit it perhaps isn't paying any attention to defense. I think I also taunted a stalker in RV who was eluding, but he wasn't a guildy so I can't verify that.

I'm cautiously optimistic about bodyguard now.

The effective damage resistance does indeed work as advertised. In arena testing, I was able to stand up to a 50 BS/regen for 2 or 3 full attack chains (in one test) and then just over one (he got luckier with his crits.) I fought the same guy's 28-ish fire/em blapper in Siren's 1-on-1 and we mutually killed each other twice, I killed him once (when I managed my attack/defense better) and he killed me once when I ordered the pets to attack (taking them off bodyguard) at the wrong time; just as he did his aim+BU + big attack.

With respect to fireball and AoE - if I stand still, a fully slotted fireball is going to mess up a number of the pets and 2 would probably take most of them out. However, if I kite around in the air above my pets out of AoE range but in supremecy range that is much harder to do. If the target goes after me, they can't get the pets in the AoE. If they go after the pets, I'll switch to attacking and get them held/caltrop'd/debuffed/immobed/etc. and I can instantly switch back to bodyguard at any time.

I'm seriously considering spec'ing into SS+CJ+hurdle for movement, since bodyguard is going to tether me pretty close to the ground in combat. I'm going to try that with my thugs/TA.

I'm not that worried about TP foe. I rarely get caught on trip mines (or the like) as it is because it's to easy to just jump out of them as soon as you see the TP foe animation start. If the opposing side has enough force to nail you the instant you show up, then they probably would have been able to do that to any squishy anyway. The usefulness of TP foe is (and always has been) way overstated, IMHO.

Movement was very slow, as I had to keep pets fairly close. I wouldn't have been able to kill with my nin/poison had the target decided to run, but my */traps or */TA would be able to keep the target held while I beat on them. It does appear that bodyguard takes affect instantly when the Defensive/Follow is issued, so good reflexes and careful stance management will let you switch to and from attacking between the target's heavy hitting attacks.

I did not seem to have problems with keeping pets in supremacy range when doing a solo straight up fight. Haven't tried running on a significant sized team yet, nor fighting against someone who was specifically trying to break bodyguard.

I wanted to do a 1-on-1 with a stalker, but didn't get the chance last night - all of my guildies were in RV.

A modification I would like to see is an increase in supremacy range in PvP, at least for melee masterminds (zombies and ninjas). It's signficantly easier to keep the ranged pets in supremacy range.

In PvE, bodyguard seemed much less useful except for surviving hot doors as I buff pets and travelling through the zone at low level. The pets don't attack the mob that's attacking me anywhere near as reliably and the loss of control is not worth it IMHO.

Just my $.02.

I've only gotten to lev 8 (thugs/TA) so far, but they seem to prefer range like bots and mercs. Their ranged attacks (single and double pistal shot) are slightly stronger than their melee (pistol whip/brawl). They certainly prefer to stay at range for the most part if left to their own devices. I've had to retrain myself to not keep sending them into melee (like I do with my ninjas.)

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Of course, this would all be a moot point if PvP weren't predicated and designed around 5-second battles.

If they'd go and do a global damage nerf against PvP targets, we'd get knock-down, drag-out fights that ... wow ... would feel comic-y.

Then, the scrappers could shut up, because their high DPS would matter more than the burst that a blaster's able to do with three powers. Of course, you'd have to let the blasters kite in such a situation, too, so by this time you're not really talking about City of Heroes/Villains anymore.

It'd sure be nice if a PvP one-on-one was more like an elite boss or AV battle than a lieutenant one.

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Extended cat n' mouse or slugfest fights are fun when they happen 1v1, but it's just not practical to support that in the team game. PvP rewards would have to be rebalanced around the idea that hardly anyone would ever die. For one thing, healing and buffing would have to get nerfed through the floor or nobody would ever die. Can you imagine a team of AVs fighting a team of AVs, each with pocket empaths healing them to full on every hit? It'd be worse than watching a Night Widow on Night Widow gladiator fight.

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Stalkers are probably balanced with this change, at least as far as team play goes. If they'd add an inspiration vendor in SC (is there one?), it'd be enough to make me 100% happy with them.

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I'm sure controllers and dominators would absolutely love the idea of a never ending supply of break-frees. I bet high damage ATs (like scrappers, blasters and stalkers) wouldn't abuse stocking up on a boatload of purple and red every pass through the zone at all.

I'm glad you found a way to fight stalkers and that you're having fun. I hope it opens the door to the idea that they're not invincible ganking machines and that you can begin to fight them with fewer (or even no) inspirations.

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Some powers such as Repel and Chilling Embrace can be AS'd, but not while the target is standing still. I must queue up the attack while in melee range, and then they have to move away and my AS will not get interrupted. It actually happens a lot, I will see somebody with Repel on, speed ahead to cut them off, queue up the AS when they get close, and then as they move by, BOOM.

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I presume by "queue up" you mean you're hitting the key constantly to try to initiate the attack just as the target goes by, not that you're queuing the attack before the target gets near and then letting it go off on auto as soon as the target gets in range.

It's best to be clear, otherwise we feed myths about how easy it is to AS moving targets.

I haven't tested whirlwind in a controlled setting, I just remember getting rather quickly interrupted during the few opportunities I've have to hit a stationary WW'er in the zones. Is is that the interrupt portion isn't auto-hit, do you think, or that the range is less than AS? If it's the first, it may just be harder for me as a */regen to do.

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Well, from my Ice Controller (Ice Slick), I can tell you Ice Patch is useless. I respecced out of it with my Blaster. I figure I won't be PVE anymore, been there, done that. I read Chilling Embrace is awesome, but it does no damage,

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While it takes damage to knock a stalker out of hide, a lot of things that don't damage will interrupt AS. For example, I tested kinetic's repel in the arena (just a melee-range PbAOE knockback aura) against an SR stalker running elude and popping purples to the defense cap and he was completely unable to get an AS off if I was standing still. The one time he got it off was when he hit it just as I was backing away from him.

I'm not sure about ice patch (haven't tested it), but I know I can't AS on quicksand, earthquake, caltrops and bunch of other location AoEs. It's worth testing. If repel interrupts, I would think that ice patch would as well.

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If what you say is correct, then it seems like I should be able to have CE and Whirlwind going and read the newspaper, free from AS (but not stuns). But, I doubt that. I can test the theory.

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Whirlwind will keep you from getting AS'ed - I've tried many times to get whirlwinding blasters (including ones that have been immoblized) and failed. I haven't tested against it in the arena in a controlled setting, so it may be possible with very precise timing and a lot of luck to AS a moving target with whirlwind, but I've never done it or seen it done.

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It seems that good Stalkers get around any power, including Hurricane. I was standing between two Hurricanes one time and one of the Hurricanes suddenly stopped. I looked over at the Defender who was staggering around stunned. The Stalker didn't use AS, he used another power that stuns and is not interruptable. Needless to say, that Defender died before the other Defender or myself could do anything. Now that is a talented Stalker

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It definitely takes luck and skill to do what that undoubtably EM/* stalker did. My stormy isn't high enough to get into Siren's yet, but I've been hit that way once by an EM stalker in BB. Popped a BF and ran for a few seconds until I get get hurricane back. He tried many, many times before that one successful attempt got through.

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I don't think that's a realistic assumption, as blappers already prove

[/ QUOTE ] Except in my experience you're wrong.

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In my experience I'm not, but different strokes and all that. To be really clear, I'm not talking about scrubs - I'm talking about the guys who build high performance PvP builds and know what their weaknesses and strengths are and play to them.

I've beaten a scrapper with my corruptor 1v1 before, but that's no particular reflection on my skill or the relative power of our ATs - the scrapper was poorly built and played.

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There are number of blasters in 'Burg that will gank anyone. But I can see them coming and my solo defenders can do any number of debuffs or statusing effects on them to either mitigate or completely incapacitate them.

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Then they pop a bf (or they had granted status protection from that teammate emp you never saw) and keep coming at you.

My experience with blappers has been they tend to seek out some kind of status protection before going out into the zone. I usually can't hold them with my dominator unless I stack multiple holds. Again though, this is against pros, not scrubs.

As long as we're talking about the 'burg - I've been AS'ed with my corruptor exactly once by an EM/* stalker and I survived it. This is with a */kinetics who is keeping very short duration buffs on an 8 man team full time.

When the stalker tried it again a few moments later, my repel interrupted his AS, I revealed him with fire rain, tagged him with fire blast to keep DoTs on him so he couldn't re-hide as quickly and them destroyed him with my teammates in a few seconds. This is with zero +percep.

For the most part we ignore stalkers in the 'Burg and just destroy them if they're dumb enough to uncloak where we can see them.

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While Blappers/Blasters are extremely dangerous, there is an order of magnitude more enjoyment in being able to see them...BEFORE they attack and being able to attack them on sight. They can hunt, but they can't avoid being the hunted. Stalkers, as designed, get to have an asymmeterical benefit in that area.

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An inherent benefit can be (and often is, in my experience) countered easily. I'm not arguing that a competent stalker is hard to kill if you're not built to hunt them. However...

I went into Siren's with my empath for the first time last night because the heroes were all backed up into the hospital and I don't enjoy camping the spawn site. I teamed up with a blaster who had been struggling on his own and he destroyed the multiple stalkers waiting outside. They had absolutely no chance.

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PvP 1v1 is never a fair fight. Some fights are less unfair than others. But inviso+AS'ing is not fun. That's all there is to it. It's a question of whether players find the experience enjoyable, not whether stalkers see themselves as balanced.


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I'm not talking about balance. I'm saying that losing without a chance to win is not enjoyable. I'm saying that a player going into a PvP zone unprepared for what's there is going to lose without a chance to win.

Seeing the opponent has nothing to do with it. The opponent killing you quickly has nothing to do with it. The fact that a stalker did it has nothing to do with it!

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Brutes...bring 'em on. Dominators, Masterminds, Corrupters...I'll fight those guys all day long, win or lose.


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Yes, I know. They're all fairly weak in solo PvP compared to the burst damage hero ATs. If I wanted to win a lot without much danger of losing, I'd build a scrapper and fight nothing but them all day long too. I guess that's supposed to be "fun."

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Stalkers...sorry, the tactics avaialble to stalkers ruin PvP imo.
I'm not alone in this opinion.


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I'd agree that you're not alone in that opinion. I don't think I'm alone in thinking that it's an exaggeration at best, either.

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The devs have to decide who's interests are in the best interest of the game. The devs need to look at the big picture with regards to how stalkers affect not only the hero side, but the villiain side as well.

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I think the Devs spent a large amount of time thinking about this, testing and looking at what other games have done with the assassin types before putting it in. Certainly the controversy is not a new thing.

I haven't seen anything to suggest that stalkers are somehow dramatically outperforming their balance expectations. There may be minor tweaks (such as the one shotting change) but I wouldn't count on anything that substantially changes the role of a stalker in PvP if I were you.

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I'm sure stalkers have more defeates in PvP than dominators...but that's not disproving anything. The point that Buffy makes...and that I emphatically agree with is that Stacked Inviso+Massive Damage = Not Fun...unless you are the one doing it.

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More accurately - losing and not having a chance = not fun. Whether you see the other guy or not and how long it takes for him to kill you irrelevant.

Some ATs and builds don't have a chance against competent PvP stalkers. But then again, some ATs and builds don't have a chance against a competent PvP scrapper, tank, blaster or controller. This issue is in no way particular to stalkers.

I think stalkers just get beaten on more because there's always that feeling that if only you would have seen the windiup for AS or if only you had a split second to pop some pills, run etc. you would have survived. I don't think that's a realistic assumption, as blappers already prove and stalkers will underline when this change goes in.

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so does that mean my scrapper wont be able to one shot minions anymore even if they are 5lvs lower than me or even 10lvs lower than me

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Sounds like this would only apply to damage received by players. Mobs will just have to complain about it on their own forum.

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1. We're looking into the tweak to Endurance for mobs that's affected Endurance Drain abilities. Sorry about that!

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Uh huh... Something that reduces Endurance Drain effectiveness by 30-50 percent is a "Tweak" as usual.

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2. We'll be putting in a check that prevents "one shotting"; if anything occurs within a fraction of second that brings a player from 100% Hit Points down to 0, we instead give the player 1% Hit Points.

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Yay! We'll have a whole split second to pop 2 or 3 Respites or just die anyway. ...way to "fix 1 shotting"... now we'll call it One-shotting + Brawl, or 1-shotting + Slug, or 1-shotting + Boxing ... well you get the picture.

Why not use the idea Several posters have already suggested:
Make Health Bars drop more gradually instead of instantly... You might get shot for 99% of your health, but it would take 3 seconds for you to actually die.

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That's a horrible idea for team play. A single empath controller or defender's healing is already horribly difficult to overcome - removing all possibilty of even a team spiking out a squishy would make it impossible. Same applies (to a lesser degree) for thermal corruptors.

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That's how I look at Hide/Placate.

You're not invisible. You're simply beneath their notice. Someone Else's Problem.


In RP terms... a civilian. A waiter, a tv repairman, a fellow gang member. "hey who's that?" "I dunno, just some chick in a ninja outfit. Harmless."

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For the Discworld fans out there, I think of it as being something like that ability Death and his granddaughter have. They're not invisible, people just don't let themselves notice them - their mind rationalizes the experience into something unimportant and not worth thinking about.

Thanks for the excellent explanation! That certainly cleared up my confusion about it and matches what I think I've seen.

I do think I have seen placate not give me "hidden" on the buff bar though, so I'll try to test that under more controlled circumstances and /bug it if turns out I'm not just smoking crack.

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I've seen more than a few people crying for Ice Tankers to have their own place to give feedback.

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way to go Jack. i'm glad between this and your "some leave" statement we're getting a clear picture of how u view us.

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From Merriam-Webster Online:

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Main Entry: cry
Pronunciation: 'krI
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): cried; cry·ing
Etymology: Middle English crien, from Old French crier, from Latin quiritare to make a public outcry, perhaps from Quirit-, Quiris, name for the Roman citizen
transitive senses
1 : to utter loudly : SHOUT
2 archaic : BEG, BESEECH
3 : to proclaim publicly : ADVERTISE <cry their wares>
intransitive senses
1 : to call loudly : SHOUT
2 : to shed tears often noisily : WEEP, SOB
3 : to utter a characteristic sound or call
4 : to require or suggest strongly a remedy or disposition "a hundred things which cry out for planning -- Roger Burlingame"


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There's plenty of stuff to be mad about without going ballistic because you misinterpreted a word in the worst way possible. I'm just sayin...