Tetsuko_NA

And this would be apples to apples because there wasn't else anything offered in the Super Packs.

...right?

And it would be apples to apples because no-one was unhappy with the random nature of the Packs as opposed to the one-and-done nature of everything else.

...right?

Clearly, there was a new mechanic being tested - the delivery of random rewards for bought packs. I don't think it's difficult to know that players want new costume pieces, etc. There was (and still is) substantial controversy over players wanting a random rewards system in the Store. By offering the costume elements both ways, the Dev team could have gauged one against the other, which might have given them a better idea of how well random rewards would go over in general.

Well, at least one redname was directly asked this during beta, and replied that there were no plans to release to EO set through any other mechanisms.
Until or unless I hear otherwise, I'm going to go with what the redname said.

For the life of me, I cannot find where I said it was unfair, or anything similar. I said it was a missed marketing oppoutinity, and one that would likely tend to continue exclusive content to ensure further Super Pack success. (And correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't a teaser for the next Super Pack-exclusive costume set shown at the Pummit?)

There was a totally new, completely unique (I have no idea where 'utopian' came from) mechanic in offering random rewards in the Store. When purchasing the Barbarian Costume Set, you didn't get a certain chance of random pieces. When purchasing the Valkyrie Set, you didn't get a certain chance of random pieces. When attempting to purchase the EO Set, all you could get was a certain chance of random pieces. In what way is that not a new mechanic?
Many things are available in the Store that can be earned in other ways, and yet they still presumably sell. Many individual parts of other Sets can be purchased individually, and presumably they sell in both ways.

Either the Super Packs would have sold well without the exclusive items - in which case, why make them exclusive? - or they wouldn't have - which would suggest that people didn't like the way they were structured, and further Super Pack-exclusive content will continue to be unpopular.

Not cheating but that they cost themselves both:

A) the chance to see of the playerbase would be interested in the Super Packs on their own merit (I suspect they would, but I dunno) as opposed to being interesting primarily due to content that cannot be accessed in any other manner - and that they specifically said (at the time) there were no plans to release in any other way (they may have reversed this position since then... which, of course, has the potential to open up a different can of worms).

...and...

B) the chance to sell the EO costume pieces seperately to players that wanted them without the other items in the Super Pack.

I'm not sure where you got some notion of 'cheating' from, though.

Um, okay... I was just speculating that it's possible that whomever in the Dev team that was advocating the Super Packs (which might have been all of them, I have no idea), came up with the exclusive content as a way to help ensure that the Packs might sell even if the playerbase didn't like the actual mechanic. If she/he/they/whomever was committed to making Super Packs a success, this would be a step in that direction.

Many other times they have gated content behind a single function, it has drawn the ire of the playerbase. I was hoping they'd avoid it this time.

Well, actually my argument was that the Super Packs should be allowed to succeed or fail based on player reception of the mechanic, rather than using the crutch of much-desired exclusive costume pieces.

As this argument holds equally well regardless of the Pack's success, it's premises weren't negated.

To put it another way, given what we know, would the second Super Pack succeed substantially if it doesn't include exclusive costume items?
I don't know. And I don't think the Devs do either.
That means that they have the choice of putting exclusive content into the second (and each subsequent) offering, or risking their success. As I, personally, don't like exclusivity in costuming, this seems like a bad situation to be in.

Unless, of course, it was decided ahead of time that Super Packs Would Not Fail!

I wasn't attempting to impose any point of view except the reality of the way the system works. There seemed to be some confusion about the Loyalty program having to do with the amount of money overall spent on the game. That's not how it is awarded.

I was drawing a parallel with a coffee shop punch card to give another example of an award given for specific circumstances, regardless of other business done with the shop.

The game can't detect your motives - or lack thereof - for letting your account lapse. It only knows if you have or if you haven't, and that's what the award is based on.

That's one reason why I hope the items will be made available in the Shop at some point in the future... the more options for people to get the things they want, the better.

The Free Coffee Punch Card works like this:
If you buy 10 coffees, and have your card punched, you get a free coffee.
Not if you buy 3 party trays. Not if you buy 15 sandwiches. Not if you buy a dozen cafe' t-shirts. There may be other offers for those sorts of purchases, but the Free Coffee Punch Card gets you something very specific for doing something very specific.

That being said, I have no problem at all with these items being available in the Market.

Yeah, it wasn't a very exact analogy at all.

I was gunning for a figure that was both culturally representative (or at least widely taken to be), and heavily altered from the initial source material (Charlton Heston, anyone?). Imperfect fit at best, unfortunately.

I might very well be way off base here, but this is my impression:

Because the present, cartoonish image is about as far from the actual myth figure as it could be. This is possibly because the most popularly retold stories involving it emphasize the 'pot of gold' (because the Irish are poor but greedy, you see) and 'getting fooled by the fae' (because the Irish aren't half as clever as they think they are).

To continue my analogy, what would you think of, let's say, a summonable Moses pet who had a staff that turned into a snake, or a summonable Jesus pet who had healing powers? Even if you yourself found such things amusing, could you see that some folks might be offended by them?

My point, as has been noted elsewhere above, is that it's lazy cultural stereotyping. It's seen as less offensive than the examples I suggested largely, (I suspect), because bigotry against the Irish (in the States, anyway) is mostly beyond living memory.

Cutsey cultural stereotypes expressed as outgroup reinterpretations of myth figures are still cultural stereotypes. We've got Celtic myth figures in the game already (heck, we've got Semitic ones now, too, for that matter...), much less cartoonishly portrayed.

I personally don't find it offensive, but I can understand that some folks might.

Ok, I'll explain by way of analogy:

Imagine if, instead of St. Patrick's Day, this was 'honoring' Hanukkah, or MLK Day. Really, sit down and write out the copy for the advert - start with a (slightly misquoted) 'typical' phrase for 'that kind of person', and then design the Jewish or African American vanity pet. What would it look like, what sort of game effects would it have? What would the summoning emote look like, to make it as culturally distinctive as possible, what would the idle animation be?

Seriously, write some ideas down.

Read it out loud.

See what it sounds like.

Excellent!

Source?

Or am I being charmingly naive to even ask?

Sure.

I just wanted to ask as soon as possible, that's all. I let myself get blindsided by the EO stuff, and I don't want to repeat wasting my time and effort making concepts for items I won't be getting.
So, the sooner I know if the pieces will be Super Pack exclusive, the better. They might not even have decided on that aspect yet, and might not tell us until they're actually in the store, but I figured I'd ask.

I suppose that's just the difference between us. I'm quite happy that you got your costume pieces, in a way you liked getting them, and are looking forward to getting more things in the same way in the future.
I'm of the strange opinion that the larger number of happy players there are, the better a game tends to be. It's not a perfect formula, but is has been working pretty well so far for CoH.
I think that enough people being unhappy enough with having (or not having) things in a game I like is terribly important. If enough people are unhappy enough, then poof no more game. Of course, the Super Packs aren't going to cause that - they might even be a move away from it - just not for me. And a few others, it seems.

And, again, for the record, I'm not raging, frothing or any combination thereof. I'm disappointed, that's all, and find it unfortunate that Paragon has chosen this method to deliver exclusive material. I find it more disappointing that, as they appear to be decent sellers, they'll be offering more exclusive content this way in the future. Especially if the people buying the Packs don't care that the pieces are exclusive or not.
I don't expect you to care about that, of course - you've made it clear that you don't. Just be aware that not everyone is so blase' about the desires of the other people supporting (or deciding not to support) a game that makes you happy.

As you've made it clear you're happy buying the Super Packs regardless of exclusive content, I suppose that the only reason you'd want something exclusive to them is to... I dunno, help me out here. Spell it out for me, if you would:
1) I like super Packs regardless of exclusive content,
2) I want Super Packs to have exclusive content,
3) This will only effect other people, not me, and this is good, because...(?)

I ask because I'm having trouble coming up with a reason that doesn't make you sound terribly immature, and I don't want to make that assumption without having your reasons first.

So, no real reason for them to not offer the costume sets separately, then?

Ok, I'll explain this to you.

You've made several posts questioning the legality of the Super Pack system.
I have suggested - in about the strongest terms I could - that if you actually think something is illegal, you should file a criminal complaint. (Do you disagree?)
If, on the other hand, you don't actually think it's illegal, you should stop broadly hinting that you think it is, as it makes you look dishonest - and I don't think you are. I hope not anyway.

I left you the out that you were bluffing - that is, deliberately engaging in hyperbole to make a point. So, here's the question:

Which is it?

(In terms of being out-of-line, I wasn't talking to you, but the Devs. I was afraid that the post might have been against forum rules.)

Alrighty, I was going to stay out of this as I'd had my say, and told myself I wasn;t going to get into this aspect of the issue.
But here we go...

Here's the thing, Hass:
If you think Paragon is violating the laws in your area, it's your duty as a citizen (as I see it) to open a complaint. Seriously.
If you think you're witnessing illegal behavior, report it. Whatever agency tackles interstate/international crime in your area - make a call and check your results.
I suspect Paragon's legal team knows the law better than me and - hard as it may be to believe - better than you, too.

If you think the behavior is immoral but not illegal, than you presumably will be running, not walking, away from the company and it's services, yes? This will be the last day we'll see you posting, as you refuse to be associated with Paragon, even as a customer?
I'm pretty sure that's not going to happen.

I'm calling your bluff - because bluff it is - you know it and I know it.

It's Put Up or Shut Up time.

(To the Mods/Devs/etc... if this post is out of line, I apologize and will willingly accept whatever ramifications result.)

For the record, I don't consider it an outrage, it's just a decision I do not support and therefore will not support. I suspect it is a marketing decision that will become more unpopular the more it is implemented, and so I am doing my tiny bit to discourage it from being implemented.

Let me be clear, however - if it could be demonstrated that the playerbase prefers, or that Paragon profits more from the Packs without the direct sales, I'd drop my public objection and quietly decide for myself if I was willing to overcome my distaste for the system to get the pieces.
Of course, the Devs don't 'owe' me this, and it can hardly be worth their time to do so. So that's where I am.

In any case, thanks for engaging, Lothic (and all).

I'm aware of the game's history, and I know that the Devs have made decisions based on player desires that damaged their bottom line, and decisions based on their bottom line that angered their playerbase.

They've made decisions based on payer feedback and decisions ignoring player feedback. But the only way they can or will make decisions based on player feedback is for players to provide intelligent, opinionated feedback. That's what I'm trying to do here.
I understand it's an outside chance that they'll change their decision based on what I'm posting here. Even if I manage to convince a decent number of players that I'm right.

That, unlike the Super Packs, is a gamble I'm willing to take.