Steel_Shaman
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Posts
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Joined
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Quote:Thanks for the reply. Here are the answers to your questions:Originally Posted by Psylenz
1. What level is your Demon/dark?
2. I assume you still do your best at dark debuff with fearsome stare, darkest night, and howling twilight.
3. Are you in bodyguard mode? Bodyguard helps pets as much as it helps you.
4. DE usually don't like fire. It's odd in that your demons have a lot of fire.
5. Does your brute buddy try to tackle more groups than you can reasonably expect to be successful with?
1. 33
2. Yep, I throw around all the /dark powers every time they're up (and appropriate to the situation of course)
3. Sometimes. When teamed I will usually start a spawn in BG mode then once the alpha is over I start directing the pets to specific high threat targets.
4. Are DE actually coded to feel increased "mob hate" toward fire using characters/pets? I didn't know the threat mechanics worked like that. Interesting.
5. Sometimes he does, yes. -
I've played the Mastermind AT off and on since CoV launched. There was a time when it was the only AT I would play. Usually, I solo my masterminds. The AT positively steamrolls when solo. It feels like nothing can stop you.
Occasionally, and usually against my better judgment, I'll try teaming on an MM. This never goes well. I spend the majority of every mission with my pets dead or dying. Eventually I drop group or (if it's an SG team) switch to a different AT.
My latest experiment was my Demon/Dark MM. I love the character. His bio, costume, and powersets all just came together so perfectly that I get a great deal of fun out of playing him. But nearly every spawn it's the same story: my Brute buddy runs in, starts doing his thing, and I start throwing down /dark's debuffs while directing the pets. Then all my pets basically just fall over dead. Devouring Earth are the worst, but it happens with other enemy groups too.
So what am I doing wrong? How is it that I can have zero issues when solo (even with the difficulty cranked way up) and get absolutely slaughtered when teaming, even when someone else is there that is making an active attempt to tank the mobs?
I really want to love the MM AT. But I'm having a hard time with liking an AT that almost requires me to solo to do well. This really got on my nerves tonight as I wanted to run my demon/dark MM so I could get him a few levels for Double XP weekend. I wound up running a Dom instead because I just couldn't deal with being reduced to a petless state constantly. I'd appreciate any advice you guys can offer. -
I only have one real hope for the animal pack: for nearly seven years, I have wanted to create an Egyptian-themed character with a jackal's head. It's the reason none of my Dark/Dark Defenders or Corruptors have survived more than a few levels. I always get dissatisfied because I want my incarnation of Anubis.
Oh, and I want a shenti costume option for males. And a sarong would be nice too. -
Quote:I absolutely loathe playing low level Controllers. In the low levels they are IMHO the weakest, most helpless AT solo in the game. Yet I like how they play in the later stages of the game. So every single Controller I make I have no fun whatsoever with until they at least have their pet and (for some builds) even later than that. The one exception to this was my Illusion Controller, but he still stunk like week old roadkill until he got to SO's and could have PA up more often.Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
It just doesn't make any sense to me to spend that time not enjoying myself so I can maybe have fun 2 months from now. If I had more time, perhaps I could stomach doing something I don't enjoy for the rewards, but since I don't have the time, I see no point in playing at all if it's not fun.
It seems the willingness to do things you don't like so you can have fun later is directly proportionate to the amount of time you have available to play.
Given the above, I can certainly understand where Fiery Redeemer is coming from. In order to have fun with a Controller I have to suffer through some of the most boring gameplay I've ever seen for quite a few levels. I'm doing something I hate in order to enjoy the character later on. -
Quote:The part I bolded in the above is really the focus of my complaint. I do not question that teams should get shards faster, but the current rate at which they earn shards isn't even on the same planet as a soloist. I would like to see this disparity lessened. (Notice I did not say eliminated, just reduced.)Originally Posted by Minotaur
My solo earning is about 1 per 2 hours, in that time I could do 2 kill most ITFs and have 15 shards and 2 components (4 shards worth each). Is it really intended that you earn them 23 times faster on a team ? And that was with me on a damage dealing toon.
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Quote:You know, you and Fiery Redeemer are right. I think I'll save myself the trouble of dealing with her from now on.Originally Posted by ShadowsBetween
Why can you even still see her posts? Seriously, a little /ignore goes a long way. It'd go farther if people would quit quoting her.
Back to the topic at hand: there seems to be a definite desire for Incarnate solo story arcs, which I find very encouraging. Until this thread I hadn't seen much in the way of that kind of request. Here's to hoping the Devs implement something like it.
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Quote:You know very well what we are discussing and it is not currently in game. You've made it perfectly clear you just love the Incarnate system the way it is and want nothing at all to change. Not all of us feel that way, as should be obvious. So we are trying to discuss changes to the game that let all of us have fun. Your opposition to that is clear, and I do not understand it. It's almost like you want to see people leave over this.Originally Posted by Golden Girl
That's already in the game
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Chyll, I consider your point of view to be one of the most reasonable I've read yet in this thread. Thank you for that.
I really like the idea of a repeatable, soloable story arc/mission as a means of getting shards. It sets a baseline that has nothing to do with random chance and allows the player to know they will get some definite progress over time. With our current system there is no guarantee of any progress whatsoever over a given time frame if you happen to just be unlucky. The Devs recognized this was a potential issue with the IO system, or they wouldn't have given us Merit Rewards and Alignment Merits. Why should the Incarnate system be any different? -
Quote:Yup, for once you and I are in complete agreement Maelwys.Originally Posted by Maelwys
I support this idea.
It seems that a repeatable, soloable mission arc which awards X shards at the end and is able to be run every Y hours would alleviate, if not eliminate, most of the complaints. I would suggest that the TF awards 1-2 shards and be 8-10 missions long, mainly to prevent it from becoming "another ITF".
At the very least this would put a "minimum cap" on the number of shards a soloist can get over a period of time without impacting upon other methods of earning shards.
Some system by which the soloist can depend on at least a certain amount of progress over time would go quite a long way toward making me not be so sour about the whole thing. -
To Arcanaville: I understand what you're saying about drop rates. And the difficulties you list when it comes to adjusting them is exactly why I am proposing the Devs do something other than tie Incarnate progression to random chance.
For example: Imagine a solo only mission similar to how the moral choice missions in Praetoria are set up. This mission is repeatable, but only once per 20 hours and rewards a static number of shards upon completion. It could be made a kill all or have some other mechanic to make stealthing it a non-viable option.
I'm aware that a solution such as that would have its own problems, not the least of which is that people who run TF's would also run the solo mission to get shards even faster. And you know what? I don't really care. Let them. At this point I am so thoroughly frustrated and just generally put out with the Incarnate system that I honestly don't know why I'm even bothering to post. The idea that it will most likely be the majority of our content updates from now on just makes it worse. I feel like the game is evolving into something totally different and that its new form is just simply not a place I want to be. I'm desperately arguing these points in the hopes that if enough of us do the Devs will listen and figure something out to make us all happy.
I'm well aware there are reasons why the Devs have set the drop rates they have. And again, my personal opinion is they are leaving out soloists by doing it the way it has been done. Or at the very least, they are trying to force the soloist to abandon their playstyle and team. Perhaps this is intentional, perhaps not, but until one of them actually tells us we won't know that for sure.
I guess the point I'm trying to make by all that rambling is that there are other ways to meter out progression than random chance. I'm really hoping the Devs consider something different as an option for future updates. -
Quote:I didn't post the entirety of my play schedule because I find it embarrassing how much I play. Let's just say it's more than what most people would consider reasonable and leave it at that, ok?Originally Posted by Pebblebrook
Not necessarily taking sides but i haven't read that into the last few replies to you. It read to me like they just want to verify that, when you mentioned you play "3 hours on weeknights" that that doesn't break down to 30min a day or 3 hours a day but 2 of that is playing the market at wentworths.
Not an unusual request to give more info on what your typical play session is like.
I think for my situation i gave enough info to get a ballpark figure to help them understand my situation better...any more than that is not necessary for feedback...the devs have more specific numbers.
I don't play the market, so any time spent at Wentworth's is minimal. I don't PvP. I run missions either solo or with 1-3 friends. On any new characters I create I do run task forces until I get all the badges/accolades I want from them, then I stop running TF's on that character. If I happen to make a repeat run of a TF on a particular character, it's either because a friend talked me into it or I just got bored one night. My difficulty on my two characters with the Alpha slot unlocked is set to even level (0/0). I think one has bosses turned on, but I think the other has them turned off. I gave up on soloing for shards and stopped playing my 50's so I can't recall for sure to be honest. -
Quote:One small problem with that comparison: I am not contesting the veracity of the stated drop rate for the shards. In fact I'm sure they're dropping at exactly the rate intended by the Devs. I have provided my opinion that that drop rate is not conducive to a fun experience for a soloist or small team player. This has been followed by people misunderstanding what I'm saying and telling me to post data. There is no data for my opinion, because my opinion does not contest the functioning of the game. My statement that this is a trend the Devs might want to look at is also an opinion. Some may feel differently, and obviously do from the replies in this thread, which is perfectly fine.Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Counter:
After almost every issue, we get threads asking about accuracy being nerfed. It obviously hasn't been, but the "stuff is new and changed" of a new issue raises perception (and makes you notice those misses more.)
Does the fact that that's a common post-issue complaint mean that this perceived accuracy needs to be examined, even though nothing else has changed (in fact, with beginner's luck, it's better on new characters?)
I'm not going to say you can't say "it feels low and less rewarding" so far, but turning that into "that's a trend that needs to be examined," well - not any more than it already is. As a new system, I'm sure it IS being watched and, should the devs feel it needs it, adjustments will be made, regardless of what we say here.
I'm really not trying to be hostile. I just got frustrated when I got told repeatedly that I don't have the right to even have an opinion. -
Wow, it's amazing how determined to prove me wrong you all are, when all I've done is state an opinion based upon my personal experience. Answer this one question, if any of you dare: what is wrong with the disparity between teaming and soloing (in reference to the Incarnate system only) being less than it is now? How will it hurt anyone?
I will NOT sit here and justify my right to provide feedback. I simply won't. The very fact you all expect me to is ludicrous to me. Feedback itself is a data point, whether you all choose to believe it or not. Get enough users saying the same thing and you have a trend that might just bear looking into. So answer my question and return to the topic at hand, please. The last several posts are a derail of the thread's real topic, after all. -
Quote:No, I do not need to do any datamining. I do data analysis for a living. After 8+ hours of it 5 days a week I'm certainly not going to do so in a game. And I certainly do not need to justify my right to give feedback when it's asked for. And attempting to make my perspective look foolish was completely uncalled for.Originally Posted by Maelwys
Feedback is based upon experience.
The more you can quantify that experience, the more useful your feedback is.
It's the difference between "Fix A it's broken!" and "I believe A is broken because it should be doing X and instead it's doing Y." Both are technically "feedback", but only one is useful.
I'm not saying you need to do thousands of "test runs", but you can at least make sure that you're looking in the right place and then keep a rough idea of what you do (How many of what rank of foes have you fought? At what level? How many shards have you found? OK, Zero shards... but after 5 level 45 Minions or ~5000 level 50 Bosses? This is not hard stuff...)
"I believe that oranges are far too rare. We should increase the drop rate of oranges. All you people who say how many oranges you've found must be wrong because I haven't ever seen any of them and I've gone around shaking a lot of trees lately and there are a lot of other people I know who shake trees and they haven't found any oranges either... what do you mean 'are they orange trees'? I shouldn't have to datamine anything..."
Thank you Lisa, much appreciated.Quote:I like what what you said Steel_Shaman.
Lisa-Nods her head in total agreement -
Quote:Yes, soloers do generally progress slower than people that team. But I don't want soloers to progress through the end game system as fast as those that run TF's. I just do not want the disparity in speed to be as large as it is right now. I also feel that "untying" progression from the RNG, even just a little bit, would be a good idea.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The system is actually skewed towards teaming, not "mass killing." Shard rates jump roughly proportionately to team size due to shard drop mechanics, and task force activities have deterministic guaranteed component rewards for completion. The only people that could possibly be experiencing a low drop rate are soloers that do not run (higher) task forces and kill very slowly. *All* of this game's reward systems reward that subset of players vastly slower than all other players.
There has been talk that later on in the Incarnate system we will need huge numbers of shards as compared to now. There are people that can't get enough shards with the relatively low number needed now. This is a problem. We could potentially be looking at a disparity of not just months but literally years to progress. I can't imagine how anyone would consider that reasonable. -
Quote:I disagree completely. Assembling statistics and performing analyses is the job of the Developers, not the players. The fact that some players have the time and inclination to do this themselves does not in any shape or form make it the responsibility of every player that wishes to provide feedback. The player is always free to give his or her personal feedback, especially when it is requested by the Developers, as they have done with the creation of this thread.Originally Posted by Void_Huntress
If you're going to discuss whether or not you're getting 'enough' of the rewards, you need to be tracking the source of those rewards. It's no different than saying "I've been playing for months and I'm not getting enough XP." "Well, how many enemies are you defeating?"
It is my opinion that the shard drop rate is far too heavily skewed toward teaming, leading to an "unfun" situation for people that solo or play on smaller teams. This complaint (coming from several people it would seem, based on the various threads I've read on the subject) should then prompt the Devs to do some data mining, which I imagine they have tools for that would make it far easier for them than the player. If that data mining does not support the complaints, so be it.
We can each say "I disagree with you" but ultimately it's not our responsibility to figure out who's right. Neither of us has to prove anything to the other or even the Devs. All we should have to do is give our feedback. -
Quote:And it is still my contention that the current drop rates are abysmal. Tying progression through an end game system so thoroughly to random chance just leads to player frustration. No offense at all intended to you, but for every post like yours I've seen about the drop rates, I've seen at least two complaining about not ever getting shards at all. My own personal experience is that shards are an impossibly rare drop and just not worth my time to farm for. Does this defy the overall statistics? Yes it does. But it's real results that myself and others have gotten.Originally Posted by Maelwys
There's a big difference in shard drop rates depending on whether you're fighting Minions, LTs or Bosses.
From here
"Assumed Drop rates" for Shards, based on player testing:
Minion = 1 in 1000
Lieutenant = 1 in 150
Boss = 1 in 50
And I'll throw in that my observed drop rate on PvP kills (rep-worthy kills at level 50, so in either the Arena or RV) is roughly 1 in 30 from a sample of ~2000 kills.
I suspect that the above rate is skewed so much mainly to discourage large-scale "farming" of weaker mobs by AoE-damage specced toons as the primary means of getting shards. "Solo" boss-killing characters have a comparatively good chance to get a drop.
If you run level 50 content which mostly has you either fighting minions or "speeding" to an objective instead of defeating everything in a mission, then you're going to rarely if ever get a shard to drop.
The drop rate for all players is independent - if you kill 200 critters solo then you have the same chance to get a drop as if your team had killed 200 critters. But since generally teams can kill far far more critters in the same amount of time, shards will tend to drop far faster on teams. And fighting in a team also generally means you'll be fighting more bosses.
I've a lot of characters that generally solo, and they've all had shards drop at roughly the above rate. I've gotten at least four level 50s to uncommon boosts purely by soloing.
All I'm saying is there has got to be a better way. The current system is far too heavily skewed toward killing mass numbers of mobs quickly. A more objective based approach would be much better IMHO. -
Quote:This is exactly my issue. Currently it's possible to fill the Alpha slot in one evening of play (ok, maybe two) if you run TF's. I would expect soloing to be slower, but come ON! The solo shard drop rate is not just slower, it's so slow it seems designed to make you give up on soloing for shards altogether and just join the TF's. This is a very, very bad design choice in my opinion. The last thing you want to do is frustrate your customers and goad them into doing something they flat do not want to do. In the end all that will accomplish is a whole lot of resentment.Originally Posted by Pebblebrook
That's the biggest problem i'm having with the incarnate system. I understand "slower" acquisition of shards. But there's "slow" and then there's "so slow it makes a snail's pace seem like lightspeed" kind of slow. The latter only serves to discourage from further participating in incarnates which i'm at now since i'm contemplating starting another praetorian instead of working on my incarnate.
I'm sure that's just the RNG, but when people are reporting getting like 10 shards or so in a single tf that's maybe averaging 1 hour of play...then there's me with 3 shard drops after a month and a half, then that is an issue that needs to be addressed. -
Ah, I do love armchair psychologists. What's all this talk about people who want to solo being introverts? Let me tell you a little about myself:
I am one of the most outgoing people you will ever meet. I strike up conversations with complete strangers while standing in line at the grocery store just because I'm bored and because I find people entertaining. I'm that annoying guy that is carrying on a conversation with the cashier and making you wait. I rarely if ever shut up. But in CoH I prefer to either solo or run on small teams. Large teams annoy me. But since I would like to see the Incarnate system have some solo content and just generally be more solo friendly I'm an introvert huh? Utter, complete rubbish.
I keep seeing people talk about how those with my opinion should adapt and change and just "go with the majority." Why are you so opposed to there being options in this game? Are you afraid that given the option, too many people will choose NOT to team with you and slow down your personal progress? That's the only logical conclusion I can come to because otherwise your argument to deny options to other players makes no sense to me at all. That fear is completely unfounded anyway. As long as teaming remains the fastest way to progress then there will be lots of people that choose that fast route. You will have your teammates to run with, so relax.
Just because an MMO has an end game doesn't mean that end game has to revolve solely around team play. Is that how other MMO's do it? Yes it is. But what's wrong with a little innovation? CoH has always been strong in that department. The Devs have used the phrase "end game for all" as their goal for the Incarnate system. I challenge them to do just that. Make the system something that everyone who plays this game can truly enjoy. Let the soloist and the team player alike evolve their max level characters into walking gods and have fun while doing so. Then we'll have something truly unique among MMO's. We'll have an end game that doesn't exclude people arbitrarily based solely on their playstyle. Excluding people is what the competition does. Let's be better than them. -
Quote:There is one small problem with your theory there, dear heart: the existence of this thread. Obviously the Devs are concerned with how we perceive the soloability of the end game content they are creating or they wouldn't have given us a place to discuss it.Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I don't want to beat the introvert types with it
They just need to realize that in an MMO, there will be some team-only stuff that is very, very awesome. -
The only real concern I have with the Incarnate system is the solo/small team shard drop rate. It's horrible in light of what can be achieved on a TF. I fully accept that teaming needs to have an advantage. However I think the current drop rate gives teaming too much of one. As others have posted, if the shard requirements continue to escalate as more of the system is released and the current drop rate remains the same, it will become a ridiculous grind that will most likely put it in the "don't bother" category for a lot of soloists and small group players.
Funny thing is, I rarely solo. Usually I am grouped up with 1-3 friends. Even then, I'm lucky to see a single shard drop per play session (which for me is about 3 hours on weeknights). When I think about future slots possibly requiring dozens (or more) shards, I just think "why bother at all?" The Devs have stated they want "end game for all". I admire that goal, but I don't think they're there yet. -
Quote:Rikti monkeys leave those annoying little gas clouds when they die, which IMHO is just as bad as the Knives and their caltrops for purposes of this challenge. How about Council? The only drawback to them I can think of is those damnable hyperactive puppies and their near-immunity to immob and slows.Originally Posted by Griff Mender
1) People still play redside? o.0
but yeah yer right.
2) great idea on the progress bar. We could show a screenie of when we accepted the arc and when we finished. I think that would be acceptable as far as proof for any participants. More of a fun challenge anyway.
Now....I'm assuming we all want Malta? Lol seriously tho anything but Knives of Artemis. I dont think realisticly anyone could do that. Unless they did heavy confuse powers while hovering and invis. The caltrops would just be a deal breaker there. We could maybe make it Rikti to even out against the stealthers since the probes would pick them out? -
Quote:Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
Can you name a powerset that's been released since issue 5 that doesn't have some unique mechanic attached to it?
Well, given that those are both Legacy sets developed in Beta, you have pretty much reinforced my point.
I think you missed my point, which was "Powersets don't have to introduce new mechanics to be interesting to players." The Devs may feel differently, but they aren't the ones making the request.
And why do Earth and Storm being powersets the game started with reinforce your point at all? You said "Dark Miasma is already control heavy," which I took to mean you thought that was the main reason it shouldn't be ported over to Controllers. I gave an example of a powerset combination Controllers have right now that has a great deal of overlap and is also pretty control heavy. When in the game's life cycle the powersets were introduced has no bearing on the discussion. -
Quote:Just some numbers to think about:Originally Posted by Pyro_Master_NA
That, combined with shadow fall would create a HUGE amount of psuedo defense for them. I realize that dark already has a bit of that, but since fluffy can't be told where to go, controlling who gets that debuff isn't as easy as a chill of the night port would be. Fire/darks could afk in melee with TG on auto on boss and come back with everything dead and the player at full.
Hurricane provides -30% to hit
Earthquake is -10% to hit
Steamy Mist is 3.75% defense
The above numbers are all base values assuming no slotting at all. You see where I'm going with this?
In reference to Dark Miasma being control heavy, see my earlier post about Earth/Storm controllers and the amount of overlap they have.Quote:Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
First, Dark Miasma is already control heavy.
Second, the Developers have chosen (rightfully so) to work on introducing sets that offer some new type of mechanic for the given AT. Electric Control emphasized -endurance soft control and introduced chain-mez powers. Dual Blades introduced combos. Dual Pistols has the ammo swap mechanic and very unique animations. What would Dark Control do that was completely new to control sets and wasn't just control/ToHit debuff versus ToHit debuff/control-- which is exactly what Dark Miasma is?
As to your second point, it's not always about flashy new mechanics. Sometimes players want something because it allows them to do something new with an AT in terms of concept. Right now Controller and Dom players have zero options for Dark-oriented characters unless they pick a powerset, color it black, and just say it's dark energy. But everyone they team with will just think they're a [insert control set here] with customized coloring because after all, that's exactly what they are. Not quite the same thing and nowhere near as satisfying to play. -
Quote:AE Arcs can be accessed across servers. The only problem AE presents is the lack of ability to control what people can use, like accolade powers. I agree that picking a specific Ouroboros mission works. Though with Oro you would probably need to specify a blue side mission and a red side mission, preferably on similar maps and involving the same enemy group. I'm not really sure how easy that would be.Originally Posted by Griff Mender
Not AE. Unless AE arcs can be shared across servers? (not sure on that.) If they cant it'd be best to do it via ouroboros flashbacks.
1) You can set a time limit challenge which will keep the Confuse power sets from getting an advantage.
2) you can set it to AT powers only (which would rule out pools so maybe not cuz thats really part of your build and not an advantage)
3)you can set it for no Temps. This is important since geas of the kind ones will help speed up the run and technically you could pop an HVAS or shivan and that would be unfair.
4)you can run it with no epics/inspirations/enhancements, tho these are all available to all so i dont think we should use that.
Most important Ouro would allow contestants of all levels to compete since we will all be lvl adjusted. I know I am still completely comfortable running my Ill/rad down to as low as lvl 10 and meet the criteria of the challenge with no temps or vet powers.
This sounds like a lot of fun and I hope we can get some cooperation on putting something like this together. Anyone know how we are going to be able to determine the focus of the challenge? The part where you do not get hit even once? As far as proving it to others in a screenshot?
As for measuring success in the challenge, all I did was look at my progress on the next Damage Taken badge and write it down before and after running the mission. Perhaps screenshots of that?