SteelRat

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm agreeing with Max AND PRAF in the same thread on the same day? Something is definitely amiss...

Taunt isn't the be all and end all of efficient tanking, it's just another tool that contributes to it.

Having it will help you do it, but it doesn't follow that you won't do it (effectively) if you don't.

[/ QUOTE ]

Effectiveness is not a yes/no quality. Its a spectrum. Taunt makes you more effective at holding aggro. End of story.

you may be referring to "Suficient Effectiveness for team to survive" but thats another story...

Bear in mind that the more confident the team is in you / effective you are, the more they are likely to release AoE hell. The more they do that, the more effective the team becomes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.. but the baseline at which a tauntless tank is effective ENOUGH for PVE is lower than I think some people are advocating here. I think it also depends largely on the primary of a given tank. From my own experience, My fire tank could survive solely with Blazing Aura, be able to hold agro perfectly well and even without taunt was regularly told he was a "Good tank". My WP and Inv tanks however really cannot do without taunt at all.

Perhaps this is due in part to PRAFs calculations for hate build up. Neither WP or Inv taunt auras have a damage component, but a debuff, and therefore if I'm understanding the maths correctly this means the amount of hate generated from the taunt effect of the aura alone is drastically less for the auras without a damage component, than those with.

Of course Ice tanks are unusual in that they have both a debuff aura AND a damage aura, both of which also have a taunt component as well. That would explain why they are such herd monsters, and I could well believe such a beast would be perfectly viable without taunt.

Oh and Shannon.. dieing, then using RotP is a valid tanking tactic for a fire tank? That has to rate as one of THE most ridiculous suggestions I've ever heard.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm of the mind that the whole engine needs something of an overhaul, its been a while since the last engine over haul which was IIRC with the release of CoV or around that time. And I know every now and then some of the settings that can be set change a bit (see i12 ). But the whole engine is beginning to look a bit dated. On top of which there are so many things the current engine seemingly cannot do, which IMO would make the game more immersive.

Animated hair, who cares (besides GG)? Certainly not me, but looking at some of the graphical wonders that other games give us I wonder how long it will be until people stop playing because CoH looks ugly.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that'll be a while yet in all honesty. It's looks aren't exactly cutting edge, but they're still sufficiently detailed and pretty to do the job - "functional", if you like. The added bonus to this of course, is that people with lower end systems are still able to play and given NCNCs thrust to improve the game and get it out to the most people, any engine update that would increase the min / rec system requirements, wouldn't be a good move imo.

Having said that, if NCNC are serious about increasing the longevity of the game more than a couple of years, (and given their blurb, I've no reason to doubt that) I'd have thought an engine update would be on the cards in the long term, and given that commitment to the IP, I wouldn't be surprised if the outline of that is already being planned as we speak.

I'm agreeing with Max AND PRAF in the same thread on the same day? Something is definitely amiss...

Taunt isn't the be all and end all of efficient tanking, it's just another tool that contributes to it.

Having it will help you do it, but it doesn't follow that you won't do it (effectively) if you don't.

as in.. "CoX is my best friend"?

There is the other slightly more worrying one..

"I like to play CoX with my friends"

o_0

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Personally, I think choosing not to team with someone based on thier build without seeing them in action is not acceptable.

[/ QUOTE ]

I try to avoid quoting and saying "this" but in this case it seems the best course. This!

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I think its a lot more complex than that...

1. Inviting a tank. Take one look at build. No Taunt. Kick.

On one extreme.

2. Doing ITF. Last spot. Need a tank. Two tanks ask to join. Both are unknown quantities in terms of "skill". One has taunt, one dosent. Choose the former.

There is a whole spectrum of inbetweens too. I think most people would be somewhere in between the two...

However, the argument "If [x] wants to play/build that way, its there game, let them" also applies to "If [x] wants never to team with tauntless tanks, its their game, let them". As long as people are rude about it, you have to say its their perogative. Ergo, acceptable.

[For the record I dont think doing scenario 1 is something I would condone, or do, but you have to respect peoples choices].

[/ QUOTE ]

Has something changed in the game? I weren't aware you could check a persons power choices before even inviting them into the team? Unless of course you're saying that in this hypothetical situation you'd actually ask them whether they have taunt or not?

If I ever asked to join a team, and the response was "Do you have power X", the reply to that with, "Second thoughts, don't bother mate"

I'd also agree with what Max said earlier (yes mate.. amazing I know ) "A fireball in the face does the job just as well" - I actually used this tactic a fair bit before respeccing in to taunt. I remember a team I was in a while back where I was using fire ball to take the alpha. One of the team members said "You know things would be a lot easier if you had taunt". I simply replied with, "You're probably right, but my way is a lot more fun "

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I managed to tank perfectly well with Viking Furnace without taunt, so I'm a little disturbed by this "build snobbery" some people are displaying here. "I won't team with a tank that doesn't have taunt". I prefer not to team with someone that decides on a players worth just by what powers they have.

That said, I did spec into into it a while back, and it does make things a lot easier for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was part of a team that helped a tauntless tank hit 50 last night, they weren't as flexible as they could be (never are) but the fact that they just hit 50 tells me they are still starting out.

(Hows that for snobbery?)

Happy Birthday SteelRat.

[/ QUOTE ]

"not as flexible as they could be" <> "not effective enough in team PVE"

BIG difference.

Can never have enough CoX appreciation threads. Like most things in life that we have true love for, CoX sometimes does get right up my nose with its foibles, but ultimately I'll always come back to it. Unlike some things though, if I get bored, try something else, realise I should have never left it in the first place, it'll welcome me back with open arms.

Smeggin ell.. just noticed this

Thanks guys - 38 years young this time around.. or maybe 29 for the 9th time around

Went to see "We Will Rock You" at the Dominion Theatre in London. Totally brilliant, and I'd recommend it to anyone that has even the slightest interest in rock music - unless of course you don't like Queen :P

In before lock.

And /notsigned. Too complicated, and given that thanks to IO's I've seen some blasters that are more survivable than some tanks, so pigeon holing ATs like that really wouldn't work very well.

I managed to tank perfectly well with Viking Furnace without taunt, so I'm a little disturbed by this "build snobbery" some people are displaying here. "I won't team with a tank that doesn't have taunt". I prefer not to team with someone that decides on a players worth just by what powers they have.

That said, I did spec into into it a while back, and it does make things a lot easier for me.

Hey bunny - sounds like missing the group invite for your ITF the other night (with Viking Furnace) was a blessing in disguise!

I know exactly what you mean though - seems more and more people forget that we're playing a GAME. I've taken to playing solo or teaming with my SG; PuGs are just an exercise in frustration.

Not even by the slightest definition of the word is that a feeble attempt. Very good! Moar plx!!

Heh, very good - it almost sounds like a nursery rhyme. Maybe it's what mothers sing to their infants to rock them to sleep in Paragon City?

People who want to leave just leave.

People who want to get "nooo please stay" from other players put posts on forums saying "I'm going to leave".

If you were that determined to leave, you wouldn't have included the "If you can persuade me not to" thing.

Attention seeking thread, best closed.

Thank you.

[ QUOTE ]

A few people here seem to be becoming a lot more cynical lately about people expressing opinions

[/ QUOTE ]

It's always been like this. Not something recent at all.

I'm still excited about VEATs even though the powersets are recycled. Why? Because fun isn't all about uniqueness. It's interesting you mention Kheldians.. I found my PB one of the most boring characters to play because it peaks at lvl 18 and the powers after that are all kind of lack lustre (tho' I'm sure FFM will disagree )

Originally I was excited about playing the Crab Spider, as I'm big tank and brute-o-phile, and this concept seemed to suit that idea quite well. Seeing the video, however has whet my appetite for the others as well!

As a side note, and please don't take this as a personal attack on you, but given the posts of yours I've seen, are you sure CoH is the game for you? You don't appear to like it very much.

Loved the narration for that video, superb Drill Sargeant stylee voice.

"Arachnos eh? There are two kinds from Arachnos, Bane Spiders or Blood Widows. Which are you boy!!??"

Agreed.. brutes are designed to be hit, but their MAIN function is to do the hitting; therefore "being hit" really is more of a result of hitting than being hit being their primary concern. Remember too that there is a whole lot more to being a tank than just "being hit". As a tank your primary function is to not just "be hit", but "Make sure you're the one that is hit over your team mates".

Brutes are far more like scrappers than tankers in that regard; they just share the tanker power sets.

[ QUOTE ]
Brutes as just as much a tank as a tanker, only difference is they use dps for agro rahter than an aura.


[/ QUOTE ]

No, no, no and once again. No. The only thing Brutes and Tanks share is their powersets, other than that they're totally different animals.

A tankers raison d'etre is to be hit. He's got the armours and a relatively large number of hitpoints to make sure he can be hit a lot without dieing, he's got the means to make sure that enemies are more likely to hit him than his team mates, and even his attacks are designed more about upsetting enemies so that they hit him than doing any damage to the enemies.

A Brutes raison d'etre by contrast is to hit. His attacks are his PRIMARY, and his armours are more about being able to stay long enough so that he can hit for longer. The longer he hits the more his fury builds up and the harder he can hit.

Brutes CAN tank, and the more enemies they have around them, the greater the chance of filling up that fury bar, but ultimately a brute will never be able to tank like a tanker.

Oooh Dream, "Burn is of very limited use", ooh no most definitely not. To add to the points psi made, it also provides you with immob protection (think of it as your very own break free with a damage component), and as it has no accuracy component, it never misses. Very useful against high def opponents, and especially high def fear immune opponents like drones.

Thanks for the feedback Tundra; grateful for your opinions.

It is for a current 50 (as indiciated in my sig ). The choice of electric fences was to reduce the KB from Fault and Tremor purposefully; it's the stun component of Fault that I'm interested in as a damage mitigation tool, so stunned and immobed enemies makes a nice set up for the burn patch.

As for your comments about the FF chance for +rech, I must admit I thought that the recharge bonus from Stupefy came in at 5 IOs from the set, rather than 4, but I'll certainly recheck that.

One thing I have played with since posting this build is not running blazing aura. It doesn't seem to make that much difference in Fury build up, but my end bar seems to last an awful lot longer. I did toy with the idea of speccing it out and replacing it (and the slotting) with Stone Fist. I've got a couple of copies of the character on Test for these purposes, but in essence what do you think of that idea?

[ QUOTE ]
and Psi damage (which all tanks fear).

[/ QUOTE ]

Except fire tanks. We're squishy to everything except CoT Behemoths. For us, Psi damage is just another way of killing us

Calling fellow Brute-o-philes!

As a recent convert to the glory of SMASH I'd like some build advice about how to get the best out of Volkanik, my lvl 50 Stone / Fire Brute. Current build as below:

Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.30
http://www.honourableunited.org.uk/mhd.php

Volkanik: Level 50 Science Brute
Primary Power Set: Stone Melee
Secondary Power Set: Fiery Aura
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Teleportation
Ancillary Pool: Mu Mastery

Villain Profile:
------------
Level 1: Stone Mallet Acc-I:40(A), Dmg-I:40(7), Dmg-I:40(7), EndRdx-I:40(9), F'dSmite-Dmg/Rchg:39(9), F'dSmite-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg:39(11)
Level 1: Fire Shield S'fstPrt-ResKB:30(A), Aegis-ResDam:39(3), ImpArm-EndRdx/Rchg:39(3), ImpArm-ResDam/Rchg:39(5), ResDam-I:40(5)
Level 2: Heavy Mallet Acc-I:40(A), Acc-I:40(11), Dmg-I:40(13), Dmg-I:40(13), EndRdx-I:40(15), F'dSmite-Dmg/Rchg:39(15)
Level 4: Healing Flames Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx:39(A), Dct'dW-EndRdx/Rchg:39(17), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg:39(17), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg:39(19), Dct'dW-Heal:39(19), Dct'dW-Rchg:39(21)
Level 6: Hurdle Jump-I:40(A)
Level 8: Fault Acc-I:40(A), Stpfy-KB%:39(21), Stpfy-Acc/Rchg:39(23), Stpfy-EndRdx/Stun:39(23), Stpfy-Acc/EndRdx:39(25), Stpfy-Stun/Rng:39(25)
Level 10: Build Up RechRdx-I:40(A)
Level 12: Hasten RechRdx-I:40(A), RechRdx-I:40(33), RechRdx-I:40(33)
Level 14: Super Speed QckFt-RunSpd:39(A)
Level 16: Health Numna-EndRdx/Rchg:39(A), Numna-Heal:39(31), Empty(31)
Level 18: Seismic Smash Acc-I:40(A), Acc-I:40(27), Dmg-I:40(27), Dmg-I:40(29), EndRdx-I:40(29), F'dSmite-Dmg/Rchg:39(31)
Level 20: Stamina P'Shift-EndMod:39(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg:39(33), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc/Rchg:39(34), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc:39(34)
Level 22: Plasma Shield Aegis-ResDam/Rchg:39(A), Aegis-EndRdx/Rchg:39(34), Aegis-ResDam:39(36), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:39(36)
Level 24: Consume Efficacy-EndMod:39(A), Efficacy-EndMod/Rchg:39(36), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc/Rchg:39(37), Efficacy-Acc/Rchg:39(37), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc:39(37), Efficacy-EndMod/EndRdx:39(39)
Level 26: Hurl Boulder KinCrsh-Dmg/KB:39(A), KinCrsh-Acc/KB:39(39), KinCrsh-Rchg/KB:39(39), KinCrsh-EndRdx/KB:39(40), KinCrsh-Dmg/EndRdx/KB:39(40), KinCrsh-Acc/EndRdx/KB:39(40)
Level 28: Blazing Aura EndRdx-I:40(A), Sciroc-Dmg/EndRdx:39(42), Sciroc-Dmg/Rchg:39(42), Sciroc-Acc/Rchg:39(42), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:39(43)
Level 30: Burn Dmg-I:40(A), Sciroc-Dmg/Rchg:39(43), Sciroc-Acc/Rchg:39(43), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:39(45)
Level 32: Boxing F'dSmite-Dmg/Rchg:39(A), P'ngS'Fest-Dmg/Rchg:30(45), Acc-I:40(45)
Level 35: Fiery Embrace RechRdx-I:40(A)
Level 38: Tough ResDam-I:40(A), ResDam-I:40(46), EndRdx-I:40(46), EndRdx-I:40(46), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:39(48)
Level 41: Electrifying Fences Acc-I:40(A), Acc-I:40(48), Acc-I:40(48)
Level 44: Tremor Dmg-I:40(A), Dmg-I:40(50), Sciroc-Dmg/Rchg:39(50), Sciroc-Acc/Rchg:39(50)
Level 47: Swift Run-I:40(A)
Level 49: Recall Friend IntRdx-I:40(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest Empty(A)
Level 1: Fury
------------
Set Bonus Totals:
+2.5% DamageBuff
+1.58% Defense(Fire)
+1.58% Defense(Cold)
+9% Enhancement(Accuracy)
+4% Enhancement(Heal)
+23.8% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
+3% Enhancement(Stun)
+5% FlySpeed
+73.1 (4.88%) HitPoints
+5% JumpSpeed
+Knockback (Mag -7)
+MezResist(Immobilize) (Mag 1.65%)
+MezResist(Terrorized) (Mag 2.2%)
+9% Recovery
+58% Regeneration
+2.5% Resistance(Smashing)
+1.26% Resistance(Fire)
+1.26% Resistance(Cold)
+6.25% Resistance(Negative)
+1.26% Resistance(Toxic)
+1.26% Resistance(Psionic)
+13% RunSpeed





| Copy & Paste this data chunk into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|MHDz;4157;1092;1456;|
>-KE5TMOXS80O@?(?]!ET5,:\2D)/27K76P:I$CM8GL69-H68DN&'HLN0.BW=RB)#]F4$Y\7"D)I^`T
YCX_#\3=1E8NT2;^+JL[+X@_T.[V]^5[NW](B?Y.K+!=%)N1CU3;B]F;5E(4(7L1>"/DU%]7/X*&M4O
E4[$0EB@9D32'J6JZ.0JSA:[MK\F(K_P&%8UDU:0,[R)<V>$GK!K1O;T(Y/$@RV3UD68<[S#O8XD(
.X6AZT2)5K$OOQ7JY_@^DA&AI++^665N+=;`ZY(U06O? +;+>%^3@:0/$9"`RX']8RV%ACD3+S#H&E
@[VAI'+5B'2]`5^"UZIL1*;<ZY:B?GX$+1R'O2Y6CCR(;5ZKJ45Z4-+0K(OET^$HJA]Y>P@>JD-9=5,
+<$+GH<."%DHTE$J]&>XHU4&A@PO:`>P+.O*(/(E`V"_SI`+1C^0".<81L$(9MRBSIJQ`[]^R+=9U]T
VD^S%!2HT@K4S.H-,@$H+-/MR_K$&2]Y"G2YO\H-BKT(/8!9!9B9M,.V1C?3@@!7^VAZ-*9Z@#RVS$H
IZ/GG1&0-+V*#8_N^?'3TIH&0V;Z#E%?&U%;`*`L0&,/L-GT6.H!V-/3P\Q'F-J($K_?ED,^W`'8!Q)
^O2'BK[9;F`2-4Q*'/XB\%>QQ`N$6:^<X%FY79G`RNK[[S;/WC9EV73+ME@=UP!FR!B-B$T14CG"\/S
5'O(B_:T./I?%CW0OZDQ5SS,RVJ+"YE0T<:CE.`2E"[L[)0@[I+ZMS2K_W'N<HW,9]E11KRSVGF?\H=
I*'`HCB'#_O(IJ4U:'%#P,5KM\`Y>`VN&E5,'ES,8EN 0#5>W&6F,WP);S#;LY#HT/>T>GAV($;?[`:*
/CCEG63WM`R'XV($P*$W%EU_FH@;*[@GUX1S%$QI,"DOU:9_++9Y%F:P66]3H]-.0FY\0_0,S@;;^)L
,P=V@\U,F2#\7&&"9)>0TYPP_@&L*42< 64H"L4QP6%\UF7S."]'D6?"Y2NM=3^7^]N:VK.-3D#)\!#%
G[2E(>:91?!8U)G+$64L3CUU3;#R+=;J8$9LX6$N/2`XT]I[Q2+5^59EE)92FA>+@Q`K`(626I6@./>
87X?`RUN$"PNA][-02;%A,G4*.53/#X92>%[;D"GOQ%?;BJ^UUNQ[4W^CX0]45R5?5/$!W':SV[78CZ
L9%1E3WGK##V04PV55=H]'<C4NHK7I$'1<\TUK"I+?C9%YZS8NO+7@TLJY0=:+[GN#,X=`CB[PRNYHJ
^+&//M0GNX92R1642FP"*.];(Y4J:,,@S,SLSAV[8\D'U%/1#!'&D0'&&CC\`.@;2[>K"*?S^,*\BC0
YG4=3?>#/G2.Z<_Y^-:$*!QV_8FAE4:R""[^MAA>N!4B_8/U"]`O5+TR_:"VSP;@GZO_%9$A4/^)Q).
-(QY&-(]=XK1AK@5XA&<=H'&]O_@<E4937
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|


I've tried to concentrate on recharge and regen sets to combat the main issue with the stone melee and fire aura set weaknesses - namely execution speed and the tendancy to be a bit on the squishy side.

I know that Hurl Boulder is not everyones favourite power, and putting 6 slots into it to get an additional 7.5% of recharge is probably not the most efficient way of doing it, but whilst I'd be open to suggestions to get the same recharge bonus without all 6 slots, I'd rather keep the power if poss!

Additionally, keep in mind that I generally don't farm, and inf isn't in plentiful supply, so builds full of enhancements with 20 million inf price tags really aren't viable for me, other than that I'm open to any advice anyone can give me!