Spiritchaser
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Actually... I may have rezzed this a day too early.
I finally got to playing around with the ATIO on test and am finding that with capped res to... er, well actually everything but neg and toxic, this is looking hopeful
Now... I never came across the dreaded "Four or five spiders with faces" spawn. I'll obviously need to play more, but... High res electric/* with that IO looks like a monster... -
Quote:The question I'd have to ask is "where is that really going to make a difference?"Originally Posted by BrandX
I think I was hitting around 89.5% for S/L Resist, might have hit 90% with my slotting, I don't recall. :/
But I was liking the idea of having even more F/C/N/P Resist witht he almost softcapped S/L Defense
Now, I'll grant that electric, with the right IOs can get enough psi res that a hair more from resil will make a meaningfull difference, but negative is quite low on that set anyway, and f/c doesn't usually make or break things. -
You'll get about 4.66% more to s/l assuming tough, you'll get about 3.26 more to fire, cold, psi.
except... If you have cardiac, you're most probably already capped to S/L, so you're talking about a fairly minimal benefit.
I tried these two a lot on test with an Ele/TW and it was always my impression that cardiac was significantly better than resil. This on the set that is arguably most able to benefit from the extra +res on resil, and ignore the endredux on cardiac.
Now: If you have a cardiac build that doesn't cap s/l res, but would with resil, then I could see the argument, however, I would venture the counterargument that you probably could get that extra few percent somewhere else and stay with cardiac... limiting the debate, again, to the virtue of 3.26% more fire, cold and psi.
Maybe if you're gunning really hard for psi res? -
Sorry to resurect this but after running a few builds on test, I am forced to admit, that without dodging in, and dissengaging from combat or waiting for cooldowns before hitting a spawn, or using inspirations, I still don't have a complete solution for all reasonably common spawns of 54/8 longbow/Arachnos. I have yet to try stacked fault */Stone out but I'd love to hear any direction from people who can do this.
Again: No inspirations
Incarnate powers are fine, but no waiting for cooldowns between spawns, so lore cannot be depended on, and destiny may be at its low point.
Cost is not relevant.
Any and all thoughts appreciated. There's been a lot of general commentary that this is easy, but I have not found such to be the case. -
Here's a random idea that probably won't have much impact on improving tankers solo or small team performance, but which might make them more usefully "stackable" on large teams.
Have gauntlet apply a -special or low grade general debuff effect on all affected foes. Less def, less -def, less -tohit, a little bit of - regen, whatever. Make the effect small but stackable, such that 2-3 tanks could impose a fairly meaningful level of debuff on one, or a few enemies and protect the entire team, possibly making a significant dent on the survivability of a handfull or less particularly irritating mobs... Not so much of a debuff that you'd meaningfully kill off large numbers of foes faster, or make tanks solo much better than they do now.
Going further: Not interesting enough? fine. Make gauntlet a slottable power. Give it equal measure of enhanceable debuff and unenhanceable -debuff of many types, and let tanks slot the debuff type they'd like to particularly specialize in. WP/DM tanks might choose tohitdebuff, you could slot damage, for -damage and SD/KM tanks could potentially stack a fair bit of this. slot resistance for -res, heal for -regen, def debuff... more -range... all applied in small amounts to those caught in gauntlet. Not enough to make THAT much difference with one tank, but again, let it stack. For added entertainment, let the alpha slot modify this.
Possibly consider adding in an increase in the aggro limit and you'd be more than fine. These changes shouldn't make tanks much better solo.
They'd never eclipse defenders for debuff, scrappers for damage or any such thing,
But you wouldn't feel that three tanks on a TF were a waste. -
Quote:I dont think it's appropriate to need to select your character from some hypothetical quiver based on the content at hand.Originally Posted by _Pine_
You took a tank designed for Smashing/Lethal Uberness with a psi hole on a trial with almost all psi damage. Can we blame the AT?
Try doing it with a Stone, Elec, SR, SD or Elec tank.
Provided a tank is built for the task, said tank should be able to do a tank's job.
Now: I'm not saying all tanks should be equal at all tasks, and I'm not certain that all options were actually exploited by the invul/axe in question. As I recall, an axe/invul with stacked scirroccos, 2X +5 from ranged and patron pet purples, a full load of psi def from res sets, weave, maneuvers and 2+3s can hit over 40% psi def, which requires some nasty (but not cripling )compromise, but does provide serious psi protection.
But as a basic principle, a tank that is not, by primary, well suited to the task at hand, should still be balanced such that success is still within reach (hard? sure but within reach) -
While I'll accept that some brutes and some scrappers can do a tank's job some of the time, I don't really see tanks being eclipsed.
The only thing I'd like to see changed is some benefit from stacking multiple tanks.
After the first there's little point.
Letting some portion of bruising stack, or at least stack per tank would do it, though I'm sure there are more creative and interesting ideas out there too. -
The thing that it might be worth adding in here is that even in the pre-nerf days, EM was NOT the definitive ST DPS set in PvE.
Super strength (often with stacked rage) and stone, with three dynamite dps attacks were both very competitive with it.
All you could say at the time was that it was somewhere in the top three, and that for many, it looked the coolest. There were many threads debating the virtues of stone vs EM vs. SS, but not much in the way of concrete answers.
Thing is, for EM to be where it was, it depended on that one very off-the-map power.
Take it away and you're back in the middle of the pack for the one thing that set did well.
Did those three sets give brutes an edge over scrappers? Probably. It should be noted that the fury math has been adjusted since that era, brutes sustained slightly higher levels of fury back then, and no I don't remember the exact chronology... EDIT: I also remember several scrapper sets being reworked for the better, that also changed the relative balance there...
EDIT: a note: this is with regard to PvE. I do recall that EM had a strong place in PvP, especially amongst stalkers.
Even in PvP though, I remember some compelling (though clearly not definitive) arguments in favor of SS for those tankers who actually did PvP... and in so much as tankers in PvP mattered, which was "some" -
Quote:Well, I think they'd produce a set withOriginally Posted by JayboH
What do you think of Eldagore's changes?
Middle tier ST Damage
Bottom End (but not bottom) AoE damage
Upper end (but not top) ST control
Nearly nonexistant AoE control (Proposed mag 1 stun from a modified TF, also the recharge of TF or its damage might have to take a hit to get the benefit)
No Utility.
No Debuffs.
It would be more playable than today's set if for no other reason than that proposed change to the ET animation. I would not personally choose that solution to ET, but I must admit it would be a strong positive change to the set all on it's own.
Basically the set would be eclipsed in it's entirety by Stone or SS, and largely eclipsed by Dark in significant ways. Many sets would either surpass or match it for ST damage while outdoing it for AoE, though many of these would be inferior for ST control.
If I were setting up changes to test, I'd start from a point with more of an improvement than this.
If ST control is going to be EM's "Thing" then I'd give it back the capacity to one touch mez a boss.
The Stun power is still very much dangling out there. I'd replace it with something useful. My personal choice was an AoE stun power, but a solid ST attack would be a reasonable choice if it boosted the DPS of the set. Unfortunately that would result in a set with a great many ST attacks and not a great deal of variety, but... oh well.
If the Set's ST damage is buffed enough (either through a change to ET, or modifying stun, or whatever) then whirling hands may be best left as is. If EM ST damage remains close to where it is, I'd strongly suggest going for the radius increase to WH.
If neither Aoe control, nor ST nor AoE dps were increased, I really don't think it would be way out of line to give both TF and stun mag 4 stuns.
Hands down something EM could do that nothing else could. -
Quote:I guess great ST damage depends on your definition of great. It's certainly not top tier as it stands. I would personally say that it does decent ST damage, but nothing more.Originally Posted by Eldagore
EM needs a small change to make it feel like a solid set. It does great ST dmg
If EM were to be in the top 3 for ST damage, I think you could make an argument that it was more or less ok, though I would probably still point out that the other two in the top three brought a whole lot more other tricks to the table... -
Quote:Originally Posted by BunnyAnomaly
I'm not saying they should balance the set, but I think suggestions need more than "it gives defence and resistance".
Well, I Personally think there's a vast unexplored ground that could be fit into any of these suggestions: Some weirder ones first:
A control happy set with some of the more typical mechanics but more clicky control effects (think a short duration PA) to help survive. Very short duration, but it'll help take the alpha on an otherwise softer set.
An adaptive resistance power that increases in magnitude every time an attack of that type lands, and which degrades over time. A bit soft on alphas (need another tool for those), but generally great against environments with a single damage type, and solidly good against those with mostly 2-4. Weaker than average against foes that really spread the damage out.
A defence set that has a few solid targeted AoE debuff effects to help it survive
A defence set with a taunt aura that slowly stacked a -res debuff on foes... just a couple percent every few seconds, but maxing out at 15- 20% (or whatever testing says is fair) on a hard target that lives long enough
A reactive set with "when attacked" proc mechanics.
A set with a + healing recieved power that would magnify... well, any and all incoming heals.
A set that can steal buffs off of foes.
A set with a targeted taunt toggle.
A set with mutually exclusive +damage and +res/def toggles.
Any set that can copy a foes power for a short time
A solid confuse power
More normal? Working with what's already out there one could make for some different things...
A defence/resist set with no +HP but better resistance and defence debuff resistance than invul would be cool enough. Think electric levels of resistance, similar defence and maybe 70% defence resists.
How about a typed defence set that can cap defence resistance?
How about a set that has a lightform type power? (might need self penalties in the context of melee)
How about a "stone light" set with a restrictive tier 9 that isn't as good as granite, but isn't as penalized or restrictive either?
How about a low mag hold aura or a resistance version of invincibility or a set with power boost or a set with a low mag resistance team buff (like grant cover but different) or a set like resistance but with short duration +res clickies or...
New styles and mixes could be almost unlimited. There's a valid question as to how much fun some of them might be... they could be the worst... But I have to think there are quite a lot of potential gems too. -
Quote:ReallyOriginally Posted by Talen Lee
Good news! Your assumption is completely incorrect, therefore, you don't need to worry about the rest of your point! I just saved you a bunch of time fretting about something that isn't a problem! Maybe now you can stop being unhappy about a three year old change!
Well in the interest of saving all the time I've wasted here, you have my permission to go back in time and warn me before hand.
But don't you go and mess with the day I found all the gummy worms in my backpack, that was a formative moment. -
Quote:I don't see any need to change WH except the radius.Originally Posted by JayboH
Other than radius, Whirling Hands isn't a problem - it's like many sets, where the one PBAOE does roughly the same damage as the weakest attack in the set.
Some ideas in here are interesting though. I've always wished that it had higher chances of status effects baked in, but it's been a long time since I played this set. It used to be the top Stalker set for a very long time.
EM is the only stalker set I've played over 30.
Hell, I think it's the only stalker set I've played over 15, but... that was back when ET was not annoying. -
Quote:I'm not a fan of this, but if they DID decide to go the spash route, they might as well drop stun for a melee version of disintegrate.Originally Posted by Jibikao
Those two will make EM a lot more attractive. I am leaning towards giving Energy Transfer a "splash" effect similar to Thunder Strike because Stalker doesn't have Whirling Hand.
EDIT: and yes I would give AS a 100% chance to spread disintegration
EDIT AGAIN: I think the reason I don't like the idea of splash damage (in whatever form) is that to me energy melee is all about control, focus and precision. I don't personally feel like it should "leak" damage except where intended. I'm not saying that you couldn't fix the set with splash, just that I wouldn't choose that way. -
Quote:I'd argue that stone, with it's mag 4, yup, boss smiting 4 hold is just plain better. You want to knock the toggles off something mean? Done. And quickly at that.Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
It is perfectly reasonable to say EM is the set that has the most hard control in disorients/stuns. You may not want that, but it gives a reason why someone might choose the set.
Stone brings a lot more to the table as well. -
Ok, that title is a bit of a prank
I do not think EM was deliberately placed in a "penalty mode" after the ET/TF nerf. I do however, think that a single, very overpowered attack was reduced in power without adequate consideration of the impact on the rest of the set.
EM was never grossly overpowered in PvE, it was strong at single target damage because of one problem child, and without it? It's right at the bottom of the heap in just about every measurement but single target control, where it does more or less ok.
I propose that it's time to re-examine this set, and change a few things. Hopefully some of my level 50 EMs might see the light of day again, after a long period of well deserved neglect.
Here are the changes I would make:
Energy Transfer: Ok, I appreciate the old power was a bit off the map, but the new one takes too damn long. My suggestion? shorten the recharge to 12 seconds. By my estimation that'd make for a base level 50 damage of about 130 on a tanker or about 183 on a scrapper. The self damage should be reduced to something between 1/2 and 2/3 of what it was. Switch back to the old animation, or something as close to it as testing will allow.
Stun: This power has no earthly purpose... well ok, it might have some purpose, but not much. I'd suggest keeping the animation, which is actually pretty decent, and having an AoE stun effect. Think fault, only with the centre of effect on a melee target rather than a ranged target. Mag 2 stun as per fault, but increase the duration a bit (no range, but lasts a little bit longer)
Whirling hands: Back in 2009, Dominators had the radius of their version of WH increased to 15. I'd propose the same her. EM has never been an AoE powerhouse, and I doubt this change would ever make it one. You'll have one light damage, but very usable AoE on a decent recharge.
Total Focus: I'd love to see the magnitude of the stun re-instated, but if my suggestion to change stun were to be instituted, this would be less of an issue.
What do you get?
Top notch st dps. Maybe nearly as good as the best DM or SS chains, but close enough for discussion sake. Sure you have some self damage, but... oh well.
Adequate AoE. Not great, but at least not downright aweful
Solid Control. Respectable AoE and ST control.
Do I have any reason to think this is possible? not a single reason, but I can dream... -
I think I might be inclined to reduce the cap on defence resistance for stalkers and scrappers, and possibly for brutes as well, while giving some ATs a default starting base level of it. Tankers, obviously, should get most.
This and the addition of a few mobs who exploit such things could make tankers a lot more relevant, at least in new content.
I'd also love to see those quartz emanators change such that instead of a massive tohitbuff to the DE, they mcaused a massive defence debuff... but that's me.
Might be fun to test anyway. -
Quote:No, incarnate powers are fine...Originally Posted by mauk2
This.
Longbow are annoying as the dickens, they are DESIGNED to make you kite them. Grrrr. The fact that the longbow bosses are anonymous at range also makes them reallllly annoying. Not terribly difficult, but annoying.
Arachnos are pushovers until the tarantulas show up. Make them miss (eat a damn purple, playing without insp's is a chump move), or suffer. Although at this difficulty, perhaps a better way to handle bad multi-spider spawns is to pop barrier as you move in.
Or do you want a build that can do it without Incarnate powers, too?
I do already have builds that can do this with inspirations, since I only need to chug them for hard spawns, so barring two tough ones back to back it's not so bad... Thing is, barrier will get me through one bad spawn, but the next bad spawn will crush me, since barrier won't cut it once it tapers off. I'm trying to avoid hanging around for 20 seconds or something waiting for barrier to recharge.
But chump move though it may be: the goal I have here is to try and make a build that does not require inspirations to do this... -
I appreciate the comments that this is possible, but if anyone might be so good as to post a build that they successfully use to solo these groups without inspirations, I'd be most thankful... Failing that, any pointers on specifics I should aim for to survive would be great. I'm well aware that with some combinations of spiders, there's no point in def on an ele, it'll all vanish, ditto on many other builds...
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Quote:This is entirely possible, but I'm a bit at a loss for what. Lets take my electrics. I can jump into a spawn of spiders and out (edit, and run away for a bit and back), gradually whittling them down, but that isn't really what I'm interested in doing. Sure most spawns aren't too problematic, but when faced by numerous def debuffs (basically floors my def) and lots of toxic damage, I quickly get into trouble. I can use barrier or rebirth, and that may do me for a while, but inevitibly it'll be down, or, sometimes, it won't even be enough as the damage continues to pour in.Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
If you're having problems then you may be approaching something wrong. I assure you that Invuln and Electric will have no problems... if my Spine/Elec scrapper can mow them down then an Elec tanker should have no problem.
edit: and again, I'm trying to do this without inspirations. I appreciate that with them, this matchup becomes far less of an issue. -
Quote:as far as wardens go, anything that slows me in a sonic grenade is aweful, and it's guaranteed to happen at least once or twice a mission. Most bosses will be fine, but sooner or later, usually sooner, I get a pair that are definitely not ok.Originally Posted by TheBruteSquad
Both factions are about tactics.
Longbow: Don't stand in the nullifier grenade zones (though stone and invulnerability don't really care with capped smash/lethal resistance practically killing the debuff).
Arachnos: Kill any tarantula with a face first.
That's it. Longbow is the more unpredictable: Sometimes a rad warden will ruin your day, especially at +4. Arachnos is all about the tarantula mistresses (lts), though Mu sapping can get aggravating as well over time.
Spiders? depends on the build... but generally those tarantula mistresses are murder... and I typically cannot kill them all fast enough if they're spread out.
figure a queen and 3 lts are going to happen at least once in a mission. Throw in a toxic tarantula or an excecutioner and it's going to be over fast.
edit again: also for clarity, I'm referring to doing this without inspirations. throw those in and I appreciate that this becomes far less of an issue. -
Ok, I've played a few tankers, mostly electric, some willpower, a fire or two and a single invul that I never took to 50.
None of my builds can solo both longbow and arachnos at 54/8. I'd like to build one that can.
I'm guessing a shield/dm might, and Shield/stone might too... but I'd love to hear any other suggestions people might have.
Any/all suggestions would be much appreciated!
EDIT: by solo, I don't require that it be trivial, just that for any combination of bosses/LTs there be a reasonable/practical way to get through.
EDIT again: to be clear, the intent is to do this without any inspirations at all. With insps, this is not such a big deal. -
Quote:Er, I'll address your second point first: I'm not looking at powers, I'm looking at builds. I'm not expecting a categorical breakdown of every power in the game, I'm not sure how anyone could. This is about: This is my build, these are the groups it can confront at 54/8. These are groups it cant. Obviously there will be gaps. Not everyone is going to bother to fight elder snakes.Originally Posted by BunnyAnomaly
First of all it depends on whether you're prepared to use inspirations or not, and whether you'll be using incarnate abilities. If you want to wait 1:30 -> 2 minutes between each pull you can probably +4/x8 just about anything in the game on just about any set combination because of the judgement slot + barrier giving you enough god mode to soak an alpha and tear a spawn apart. Again, that's if you're prepared to go slowly.
Against malta, you'll want stun protection, endurance protection and high defence if you are melee. But if you are a perma dom, you might just be able to lock them all done without even acquiring aggro, so... it's really hard to say what the 'survival metrics' are.
Which leads to...
Which is going to be a list of just about every useful power in the game, because they all serve a purpose (I suppose defining them as useful to begin with makes this a tautology :P ). Mass Hypnosis + permadom is going to make an effortless, if extraordinarily slow, run through. Footstomp is going to provide more mitigation (through knockdown + defeats) than what many people will give it credit for. Even just a list for carnies alone is going to be taking out specific abilities from every single set of every single archetype and defining the strategies useful. Then repeating that for every type of enemy. This thread would be collosal.
And with regards to what's the rules are for waiting on barrier (or any destiny) plus judgement, and or inspiration use? It doesn't matter what you do as long as you're clear and honest about it. Be as clear as you can about what you did, and people can use that to assess your build's performance. There may need to be some clarifications from time to time, but a simple question might establish exactly what someone did when they say they used occasional purples, or if they had to wait for barrier to recharge for spawns with two dark ring mistrisses, or whatever. -
Quote:Heh, even a little creative slotting with a claws or spines scrapper will do it, though only with hellishly restrictive concepts.Originally Posted by BrandX
If all it took to make a tank Mage was defenses and long range attacks, WS, Crab, Fort would all be tank mages.
Given that spines is at least reasonably balanced, and that it's basically an assault set, I've never understood why there couldn't be other assault sets ported over. Sure, change them just a bit if needed, Blaze might be a bit much... but really? I'd love to make an X/dark scrapper, where x was a non-spines assault set.
I'd guess that more than a few others would as well, even with potentially very mediocre (for a dps build) ST damage. -
Quote:Er build specific survial was actually kind of the whole point, and not the problem.Originally Posted by Nihilii
Problem with that is that factions can present significantly more or less risk based on your build, or perhaps even playstyle. There's stuff like Council or CoT (level 50 CoT) that I think everyone can agree is easy, but then for example Malta has been mentioned a few times and I just never had that much trouble with them. On the other hand Arachnos gives me fits on any character that hasn't 50%+ DDR, but not because of the toxic damage (which I never even notice), but because of the autohit defense debuffs. You can also see Combat and I, even playing the same character, have a different opinion on the relative difficulty of IDF/Resistance vs Rularuu.
So I think at best you can distinguish trends - like I don't think anyone would seriously argue Vanguard is easier than Council, regardless of the character played (then again, perhaps a plant dom spamming confuse might think otherwise...
), but something as specific as you mention doesn't seem possible, as if nothing else some of your examples already don't hold right for me.
What I'd be interested in is exactly what the build specific survival metrics are.
So, I can say I'm playring an electric fire and arachnoids are flat out impossible at 54/8, at least not without unreasonable numbers of defeats or unsustainable inspiration use, with a build so others can understand this. Another player can say their elec/TW can play them with the odd insp (with reference to the spec they use) but it's damn unforgiving. Maybe someone who's got a build that can solo 54/8 arachnoids easily, without inspirations with an elec/fire (not sure how, but...) jumps in and points to their build, and what else it's good or bad for (maybe it's got issues with something else)
Another player might mention that their shield/Dark can wade in and go nuts (slowly) killing them all off. When talking about Devouring Earth, the Elec builds might have a far easier time at 54/8, particularly if they've capped their res, while the shield dark is going to be miserable or dead every time a quartz drops.
To my mind the problem isn't deltas in build, that's the point of such a thread. To build up a bit of a library of what works where, and how well.
The problem is going to be deltas in skill. I'm pretty sure there are players out there who could do a lot better than I do with my builds, but we'll probably be able to sort that out without too much guesswork.