Smiling_Joe
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Quote:They're not Patsies. THEY'RE INVIIIINCIBLE!!Originally Posted by FourSpeed
To paraphrase Monty Python's King Arthur...
"You make me sad. So be it. My Peacebringers are Patsies"
Interesting numbers analysis, thanks for making the effort,
and here's hoping it leads to some beneficial dev scrutiny.
Regareds,
4
Seriously, though. Off the top of my head if they just normalized Photon Seekers and Light Form with their Warshade counterparts there'd be no problems at all.
Like I've said many times. Bring the recharge down CONSIDERABLY on Photon Seekers. I even plugged in 10 seconds (as was suggested as an overpowered amount in the other thread) and didn't exceed Warshade Damage Potential. Not that I'm proposing reducing the recharge to 10 seconds, mind you, but something along the lines of Rain of Arrows wouldn't be out of order here, so long as the Seekers were flagged unique after 3.
I'd like to see something more creative with Light Form. Some sort of damage buff and/or recharge buff tacked onto it to compensate for being locked out of forms would be nice and make it less of an unstoppable clone. (I just remembered I didn't account for its crash in the spreadsheets. Shoot. Now I gotta figure out how to do that.) -
Quote:Keep in mind those are single target numbers. When faced with a group, the nova's damage potential far exceeds that of the human form.Originally Posted by Jibikao
I see a pretty sad design in Peacebringer because:
Human damage potential (expressed in dps): 111.51
Nova damage potential (expressed in dps): 109.9
Why would anyone wants to be in Nova form then? I've looked at the builds and while Nova starts off having better dps but you sacrifice healing (yourself and others) and other utilities. PB also has combat hover to allow aerial fights.
EDIT - it's more a testament to the power of Incandescent Strike and Radiant Strike than it is a condemnation of Nova's damage. -
I'm such a doofus! I forgot to mention the most important thing!
Nowhere in any of that analysis is cosmic balance taken into account, and that's important to remember. The analysis is based on the archetypes alone, mostly because that was something that's easy to do in forum discussion.
In the meantime, let me just say that I expect a Peacebringer to close the gap somewhat between the two when teamed. A team of blasters and scrappers will have little use for the extra damage a warshade gains from their presence, but a Peacebringer's added toughness will be most welcome, allowing the PB to tank more effectively. -
There's been more than a little debate lately as to whether Peacebringers have fallen behind warshades in terms of game balance, and in another thread numbers were requested to prove that theory.
Wait no more, because I have numbers! Exactly what they prove is open to debate, but what I've done is this: I took two more or less equal builds - one for the Peacebringer and one for the Warshade and compared them in Excell spreadsheets. The builds I used are pulled from Plasma's Ultimate Guide to Kheldians; specifically, I used his Gold Standard builds for both. Neither of them use stamina, and neither of them use IO's of any sort. The only change I made was to the Warshade build with regard to the Dwarf Mire: when Plasma created those builds Dwarf Mire was on the same recharge and duration as Sunless Mire. I changed it to make it more of an attack, and adjusted the damage on the other powers in the dwarf attack chain accordingly.
Speaking of IO's - or the lack thereof - in these builds, let me here state that the game is balanced around SO's. Whether or not anyone think's that's a wise decision is irrelevant, so please spare me any discussion regarding what you can do with IO's. IO's do not exist in this thread, and any attempt to bring them in will be summarily ignored. Enough said.
Before I go further, let me give a shout out and a huge thanks to Dechs Kaison. Without his Survival Analysis Spreadhseets the self mitigation portion of this comparison would have taken MUCH longer, to say nothing of the fact that he checked my math before I went live with any of this.
Without further adieu, here are the links to follow to view the spreadsheets in Google Docs:
Warshade analysis
Peacebringer analysis
First comes the damage analysis for each archetype. For this, I crafted the best attack chain for each form that I could, and weighted the burst damage attacks like Dawn Strike and Quasar so I could express their overall effect on damage in dps terms. I also assumed hasten was running for each build. I suppose I could have weighted hasten against the non-hastened recharge times, but I view this as more of a snapshot of each kheldian at the peak of each build's power. There are separate dps figures for single target and aoe, and all AoE in the damage comparison sheets are assumed to average out to three targets hit, which I think is conservative, but reasonable.
Like the burst damage powers, Build UP and Mire is weighted and applied to the overall dps. Mires were weighted both against single targets and AOE.
With regard to Pets, I weighted Photon Seekers as a straight up burst damage power and weighted it accordingly for human and Dwarf forms, but for Nova I took range into account and further weighted the figures based on how many would likely go off. For the Warshade's Essences I assumed an attack chain of the lowest power to the highest, cycling through powers as they recharged. I assumed two fluffies out on a permanent basis, since it is possible with just hasten and SO's, and in addition I assumed one fluffy was hasted as well, since I'm under the impression that - since you'll definitely have hasten running when you summon that second fluffy, and the hasten glow is transferred to that fluffy - that fluffy will be hasted. After going over it with Dechs, however, I'm not so sure that it does. I left it hastened, but can change if need be. The difference is only about 14 dps.
I also accounted for burst damage attacks like nukes, unchain essence and pets in forms as well as human, since dropping from form is so instantaneous. What I didn't take into account where that's concerned (and maybe I should have) was the effect of shifting back to form would have on the form's dps. I don't think it's that big of a deal, however.
Because I used Dech's mitigation sheets, I went ahead and did figures for one foe and ten foes (vise three foes) for powers like eclipse and stygian return. The Tier 9 defensives are weighted and accounted for in all relevant results (note that they are absent in PB Dwarf and Nova form results)The rest of that should be pretty self explanatory.
For those who hate looking at spreadhsheets, here's the skinny:
PEACEBRINGERS
Single Target:
Human damage potential (expressed in dps): 111.51
Nova damage potential (expressed in dps): 109.9
Dwarf damage potential (expressed in dps): 86.51
AoE:
Human damage potential (expressed in dps): 156.51
Nova damage potential (expressed in dps): 240.7
Dwarf damage potential (expressed in dps): 133.51
Self Mitigation
Human Average Survivable incoming DPS: 81
Nova Average Survivable incoming DPS: 42
Dwarf Average Survivable incoming DPS: 153
WARSHADES
Single Target:
Human damage potential (expressed in dps): 189.08
Nova damage potential (expressed in dps): 212.08
Dwarf damage potential (expressed in dps): 198.08
AoE:
Human damage potential (expressed in dps): 254.82
Nova damage potential (expressed in dps): 368.82
Dwarf damage potential (expressed in dps): 334.82
Self Mitigation
Human Max Survivable incoming DPS (one corpse): 81
Nova Max Survivable incoming DPS (one corpse): 72
Dwarf Max Survivable incoming DPS (one corpse): 313
Human Max Survivable incoming DPS (ten corpses): 789
Nova Max Survivable incoming DPS (ten corpses): 767
Dwarf Max Survivable incoming DPS (ten corpses): 1426
So there you have it, for the time being. I was mildly surprised to see many of my notions confirmed. For example, a Peacebringer up against a single boss is better off to stay in human form then go nova, from a strict damage potential perspective. Looking at the spreadsheets, I can also say with confidence that the real disparity between their damage lies not with the mires, but with the pets. I was also startled that Light Form didn't add as much mitigation as I thought it would, when compared to Eclipse.
Now it's important to note that none of this takes GROUP mitigation into account. Stuns, slows, holds and knockback all serve to slow the incoming dps, and I still intend to compare that, but it will take a bit longer to find quantifiable figures. I'll come back and edit accordingly when I do, but I wouldn't expect Peacebringers to fare any better when their Defense Debuffs and Knockback go up against the Warshade's Stuns and Slows. Just sayin'.
So feel free to download the spreadsheets and play with them. Let me know where I've erred and what you think could bear more study.
And thanks again, Dechs! The help was a lifesaver! -
Quote:The DM Guide in my sig has some good slotting for its DM clone Siphon Life:Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
I've seen some mighty creative slottings for that power. Some people use accurate healing sets and then throw two common damage in there, similar to Gravity Well. I use a mixture of Crushing Impact and Doctored Wounds.
It's amazing how many attributes can be slotted all the way to the ED cap in just six slots, especially when you stop trying for set bonuses.
Crushing Impact Acc/Dam/Rech, Dam/Rech
Numina's Heal/End, Heal/Rech, Heal/End/Rech
Damage IO
21.2% Accuracy
88.07% Damage
47.7% End
73.78% Heal
91.78% Rech
12% Regen
25.1 HP
(Credit: Alianna Blue)
Mako's: ACC/DMG/END/RCH
CI:ACC/DMG/RCH, ACC/DMG/END, DMG/END/RCH
2 Gen lvl 50 Heal IOs
60.95% ACC/RCH/END
80.94% DMG
83.82% HEAL
(Credit: BrandX)
...among others. -
Thanks, Dechs!
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Build up does NOT boost Photon Seekers' damage, right?
Because they're pets, right?
Right?
File this under "information I can't believe I don't know for certain." -
Can do. Hell, since I'll be using an SO'd build I'll just slot KB in for the second go 'round on the same build.
'Bout how many samples will you need? -
Quote:Sweet. Here's my plan: For the first magnitude* on the scale I'll use White Dwarf Flare. It does knockdown, and larger samples should be easier to attain since it's AoE. Forthe next magnitude I'll use Solar Flare, and for the third I'll use Dawn Strike. I'll download a screen video capture program and record an AE mission with even con council where I use those three powers more often, and I'll keep the combat window open so I can pause the playback at the exact moments when the powers are activated. I'll then click/drag the progress bar to slowly advance time until they recover and fire off that one ranged shot. Since most media players display a precise time of the movie's progress, I should be able to get the times exact.Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
That part is easy. Once you have a KB magnitude to time controlled equation, you can calculate how much time a foe spends on his back in relation to the recharge time of the power. For example: if a power has 50% chance of KB that will take 3 seconds to recover from and a 6 second recharge time, then the enemy affected will not be doing damage for 25% of the time on average. If he's one foe in a mob of seventeen (the aggro cap), you can now quantify how much survivability that KB gives you. The missing piece right now is that time to recover bit.
The math part isn't so bad. If you have a means to record those times I described reliably, get me the results and I'll give you the rest.
What do you think? -
Yeah, and THEN you'd have to quantify the effect the knockback would have on your dps.
In short, more math than I have the capacity for, but I MIGHT give it a shot. -
Quote:For my purposes, it's all I really need. BTW, I haven't had much of a chance to look into it, but have you managed to quantify the value of knockup/knockdown in those figures?Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Easy now, it's not a perfect tool by any means. The values it generates are largely useless, as we don't know how much DPS is incoming. It is a very useful tool for comparison's sake, however. The best thing I have found to use it for was answering a question:
"More HP and regen, or a few more % of defense?"
I can plug in the values for two builds and clearly see which one survives more damage. -
Quote:How many ways do you rock? Thanks, man!Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Indeed I do. Here's a link.
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Quote:I don't know about anyone else, but I don't want game balance determined by what people can do with purpled out toons. ANY character of ANY archetype and powerset can break the game with the right IOs. Ask me, that's a problem with IO's, not the archetype.Originally Posted by CrazyJerseyan
Can you imagine how a PB would play being rebalanced with the recommendations in this thread AND being IOd or purpled? I think it could make other toons obsolete lol.
"Between the two of them, they can do 1000 damage every ten seconds just by cycling through their attacks. I don't think what you're saying would be too powerful at all in that light."
I know my WS is OMFG amazing on IOs, but never played it with SOs. If the timer was reduced and damage output kept the same on Seekers where I could do 700+dmg every 10secs on top of my normal attack cycle, I'm all for that. I say . . . BUFF PBS!
And at some point an overpowered build starts to level off. Just because you can afford a build that will unleash photon seekers every ten seconds (and I'm not even sure you'd be able to do that) doesn't mean that most of that damage isn't going to be wasted most of the time, and the level of performance you're seeing on your PB now is probably pretty close to what a PB with photon seekers every 10 seconds is going to be, since most of that PB's heals aren't going to be needed and most of the damage will be done to corpses.
But enough anecdotes. If I've got time to post here I've got time to finish those darned old spreadsheets. We could go 'round and 'round about IO's verses SO's, but in the end - whether anyone likes it or not - the game is still balanced around SO's, and it's on what people can do with SO's that dictates balance decisions.
BTW, anyone got a good formula for measuring mitigation value, or is that something akin to the holy grail? -
Quote:I'll check that out. Thanks Redlynne!Originally Posted by Redlynne
You won't see the proc announce in the combat log. I think its in the Healing Delivered log, because it's a Granted Power effect.
Next time you go to WW or are otherwise spending some time doing something non-combat, stay shifted in Nova Form and then (after several minutes) go check the Healing Delivered log to see how many times Gaussian procced for you. -
Quote:2 brutes, a 'troller, 2 scrappers, a blaster? I keep repeating that to myself in disbelief. 2 brutes, a 'troller, 2 scrappers, a blaster,Originally Posted by Lady_McDeath
The group eventually gave up as we couldn't even take out the control panel.
Not enough damage to take out the control panel with a perma-eclipsed WS at their side. Yeah. Bad group.
EDIT - btw, niiice name. -
Quote:A Warshade on SO's only with hasten can keep two extracted essences out permanantly, and because one will always be summoned with hasten running, it will be hastened as well.Originally Posted by CrazyJerseyan
My concern with the 'buff PBs' conversation is that certain changes would probably also call for other aspects to be debuffed. With the Seekers example, I don't think the devs would allow them to do 1000dmg every 30secs, seems like it would be too powerful.
Between the two of them, they can do 1000 damage every ten seconds just by cycling through their attacks. I don't think what you're saying would be too powerful at all in that light. -
Quote:First off, Jersey, thanks for posting the build! I've been thinking of IO'ing out my human form build, and this gives me a lot of food for thought.Originally Posted by CrazyJerseyan
Hey, just sitting down for the 1st time since posting last and I'm looking at Red's/Star's builds now. Honestly Joe, I'm not opposed to PBs getting a buff, but I'm saying they currently work fine for me. I can't remember when I stopped using SOs completely (probaly i11 or i12) but running on SOs is like having the money to buy a new Lexus but deciding to purchase a 1989 Honda instead. Nothing wrong with that, but I just can't do it since you get so much more performance out of IOs AND they're so easy to get now even if you don't want to spend a lot of money. Why run around with a Defender that has 1000hps when you can vroom vroom it up and operate with 1300 or 1400?
I don't think any toon plays as well on SOs vs IOs, but it sounds like PBs actually need them to be able to go hard. I am going to pass on the SO challenge and say that I agree with you b/c I really do. I just hate to see so many people dislike or not play a PB when I know they're probably basing that opinion on prebuffed conditions or running it strictly on SOs. It is what it is...all I can do is enjoy mine and throw my 2cents in here and there.
Awhile back, Solient Green told me to figure out what I wanted to maximize on my PB in PvP and to run with that instead of trying to build on everything. Because they're more of a meh 5 in 1 tool...I focused on the couple of things that I wanted to do well, pushed it that direction and that's what Ive done with my human form build now also. I am not trying to use Pulsar to stun opponents, duke it out with minions or really heal allies; my goal for this build was to run in with Scrappers/Brutes and do as much damage as possible to hard targets. I'm on the road but have an older build with me on the laptop before I tweaked it's current form. Really looking forward to you dropping the #s and let me be the 1st to say thanks for putting in the time.
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Having said that, regardless of how we think anything plays on SO's, that's how the game is balanced. You say you've never seen any archetype play well on SO's, and I say IO's can make any archetype uber. With IO's you can accomplish anything with virtually any archetype, and that's why you can't balance the game around them. You're coming from a standpoint that you can do amazing things with your peacebringer, and I could only shrug. Looking at your build, I could do amazing things with that peacebringer, too.
But we're not talking about accomplishing awesome things in a vacuum. We're talking about balancing a powerset with the other powerset in the kheldian archetype. -
If 2 brutes, a 'troller, 2 scrappers, a blaster and a perma eclipse WS couldn't complete a +2 ITF - even with one dropping after one mission - then it was more than the inability to combat incoming damage.
Who was the leader? Are you sure the TF wasn't set for the "Players under constant debuff" challenge? I don't know if that would have shown up in combat info or not.
But more than likely it was a case of PuG-itis. I don't care what your resistances are, you can't survive for long when the rest of your team is running helter-skelter and splitting every which way but loose, and nine times out of ten you'll be left wondering what in calamari just happened.
Not all PuG ITF's are like that. Pop your res, dust off the old carapace and get back in there. You'll likely as not be golden (well, purple) on the next run. I was on two this past weekend on my PB who- because of an awesome inherent - was at the resistance cap, and we burned through in record time with less damage potential and tankability than you had.
And I was also on one with the same Ice/Axe tanker that had previously tanked it in under an hour with zero deaths when two stalkers got peeved when we preferred shards to speed running on the first mission and rage-quit (aftery trying to assassinate the Minotaur on the dais and spawning the ambush prematurely), removing most of our damage potential. EDIT - resulting in a failure on the second one, in case that wasn't clear.
In short, a team of less-well-built toons than yours or less experienced players than you can get you killed faster than you could have died solo, and sometimes it's impossible to tell exactly why. Some days you get Romulus, some days Romulus gets you. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Starcloud
Given that NOT having the Fitness pool is now impossible, you might want to adjust for that.
The builds have the fitness pool (I've imported them into the new mids) but nothing is slotted. Since they are triform and originally didn't need stamina, that ought to be enough now that stamina runs in forms, don't you think? -
Just spent nearly an entire TF in nova, blasting away, and the other night in a Hami Raid spent the entire time in nova. I have that proc slotted in Nova's form, but not once did I see it go off or find it in the combat log.
Anyone else have that kind of a run of bad luck with this proc? I'm thinking about slotting a Performance Shifter +end right over it. -
Quote:Let me turn that one around on you, Jersey - Nearly everyone in the "PBs r fine" camp seems to pull out recharges and damage figures that can only be attained with IO's. (A 90 second recharge in Photon Seekers from one of your previous posts? Fully slotted for recharge and with hasten up I can't bring it down below 2 minutes)Originally Posted by CrazyJerseyan
Ah. Like I said, unless im speeding tip mishs for merits I always have 7 teamates swarming around me. What about you Red...have a PB build that you want to post? I always feel like people in the "PBs r meh camp" are usually using i2 builds and haven't played their toons recently. I'd love to see what you are working with.
While I'd love to see your build, that's mostly for selfish reasons. So do this instead: swap over to one of your other two builds and run with SO's only. Then come back and give us your thoughts. Uuuunless you already have run on SO's sometime in the recent past. If so, then bring us something from that SO experience.
I"m not saying PB's are meh. I'm saying they need help. In fact, before 32 they actually come out ahead of warshades imho.
I"m still working on those spread sheets - nearly completed the damage comparisons - anyone have any problem with me using Plasma's Gold Standard builds as a baseline? I'm comparing based on SO's, and neither of those builds used or needed the fitness pool. -
Quote:Thanks, Tex! That's more than enough for my purposes!Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I have long puzzled over this question.
I can tell you that knockdown of the sort that appears in powers like Ice Slick appears to simply play an animation named SWEEP_LOW. In demorecord files, it appears to function completely differently from knockback. It just functions like a Hold that lasts perhaps 1 or 2 seconds and happens to have an animation of the character falling.
[Weirdly, if you go into the AE, switch on Invisible mode, and drop an Ice Slick, SWEEP_LOW alternates with SWEEP_HIGH, which is the animation where enemies flip once in the air before crashing to the floor. I have no idea why it functions this way.]
Demorecord files where the enemy gets knocked back are very difficult for me to interpret. I haven't been able to find a name for the animation that plays when you get knocked back, or an indicator of how the game client knows that's what's happening.
What I can say is that, ancedotally, the distance between a mag 1 knockback and mag 6 or so is not very big. To me it feels like there is base distance of about 10-15 feet that any knockback always starts at. Each mag of knockback beyond that extends this distance minimally. I have a FF Defender with Force Bolt slotted for knockback, with a total mag of 58 or so. I was expecting enemies to fly a long distance. I actually can barely tell the difference between slotted and unslotted. I need to test it more closely to see if it changes anything at all.
FYI be careful testing knockback with Repel and Repulsion Field. Both powers have constant knockback mags that never change. I have only known this for a short time, so I haven't done a lot of testing with them. I'm not actually sure if knockback enhancements do anything for these powers. Nor am I sure whether Knockback protection/resistance applies to these powers at all. It seems like--but I'm not 100% sure--I have been able to knockback enemies even after freezing them in place with powers that do -kb.
In terms of measuring distance, again anecdotally, Mag 6 knockback feels to me like it throws enemies approximately 20-25ft. I'm guessing this based on noticing enemies seem to land right about on the edge of Dispersion Bubble, which has a 25ft radius. -
But there's gotta be a base unit of distance in the equation, right? Before all those other factors are taken into account.
That's what I'm after. -
...how far do they go? Is every mag of knockback a certain distance for each class of enemy? And how fast to they fly?
Just curious. If I can calculate how far they fly before their evil butts hit the ground, I can add the time it takes for them to get to said butt-rest to the time it takes them to get back up and run back into melee range, and have a good idea how much a given power with knockback is helping me.
If I was at home, I'd likely just log into the game and find out, but I thought I'd ask here first.
Thanks! -
Quote:I am so there! Still got my Dusty Bottoms costume, too!Originally Posted by American_Valor
And here is one of the team pic's
Comming Soon
For a Few Influence More...
Guns and Glory 2
.
...Now if I can just talk my wife into a temp gun power and a western outfit for her warshade...