Slashman

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This is how mobs behaved at launch, and we got by.

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We aren't AT launch now. And the philosophy behind gameplay for this game has evolved since then. We had no difficulty levels, we had many missions and arcs which absolutely weren't soloable. We were essentially going based on Emmert's risk vs. reward ideas. Powers weren't balanced according to activation time and other factors like they are now, and several villain groups that we have today were completely absent from the game. Also...there was no ED or GDN.

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This is how street mobs and bank mission mobs behave today, and we get by.

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Those mob spawns are also very spaced out and one spawn does NOT aggro the others.

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If an AT/powerset can't solo a level appropriate spawn of 3 or 4 mobs then the devs need to put the new costume creation pipe down and give some attention to basic game play issues. Dealing with additional aggro from perceptive nearby mob is not an AT issue . . . that should be all on the player and his or her skill.

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Sure all ATs can solo level appropriate spawns right now. But you're talking about making an AT take an alpha from a spawn every single time...no matter how spaced out they are and having runners trip other spawns down on top of the player in addition to the spawn he/she chose to engage. Spawn placements and composition are random in missions...that includes objective spawns as well as regular spawns. How do you propose to stop a runner from bring the end spawn boss and/or AV back to the player/team if all mobs are alerted by runners?

Some ATs and powerset combos can handle several additional spawns...but there are several that flat out cannot because the focus of their AT/powers is team based.

My archery/dev blaster can handle more enemies in a way my AR/ice blaster cannot. That doesn't mean that either AR or ice needs additional buffs. You can't design a game that caters to a single perspective of 'challenge' because it forces people to create toons of all the same type. If everyone played scrappers, brutes or tanks only...then sure you could make mobs go crazy...that cannot and will not work here.

Now...that doesn't mean that other things can't be done to make gameplay more interesting...but changing mob perception to 'always swarm' won't bring much besides frustration to some players.

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Then address the problems those ATs have by boosting those specific ATs/power sets . . . not taking the lazy way out of nerfing mobs to the level of strawman dummies who are basically exp ATMs.

Nerfs are bad mmkay, even for mobs.

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The thing is that what the ATs have aren't problems...they are called differences.

To achieve what you'd like to see done with perception and still keep the game fair for all ATs...you would essentially have to redesign it from the ground up. The differences between ATs...hitpoints, mez protection etc...exist because they aren't all supposed to do the same things.

If attacking a single member of a group brings the wrath of the whole group in every single case, then your ATs are all going to have to be good enough at dispatching mobs with enough speed that they are not overwhelmed and killed by the first alpha from the group. A forcefield defender would find that pretty hard to do...as would an empathy defender and controllers early on.

So we're not just talking about making mobs more 'peppy'. Some mobs would need to be nerfed because there is no way you could buff some ATs in a way that would make them adequate for handling that kind of reaction from them.

So you are making it sound simple...but in reality the developers would need to redesign certain core elements of the game to do it. The question is, would it be worth it to see a controller turn into something very different from what it currently is, just so you can feel more 'challenged' when you are playing your brute or scrapper?

The problem is that making those changes to each and every group in the game will make some groups very difficult to deal with for several of the game's ATs.

A train of mobs caused by a fleeing runner may be great fun for a stone/stone brute...but a bit less so for a grav/empathy controller.

As someone who has spent quite a bit of time playing the original Everquest and been there for the train of mobs caused by careless adventurers in the Estate of Unrest...I can tell you it's not ALWAYS fun. There is a reason that particular AI no longer exists in EQ2.

Your perception changes are not all necessarily bad...but on the 'wrong' mobs they can be pretty frustrating. Sometimes it is desirable to pull a few mobs off a group first...especially for weaker teams who are trying to take on higher level foes. It's not ALWAYS desirable to have mobs be universally alert and 'smart'.

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"Good" AI is a double-edged sword. Sometimes "good" AI can just be really, really annoying. Guild Wars had much more intelligent enemies, but generally speaking, it just made them really frustrating.

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A good example of this might be the original F.E.A.R. The AI flanks you, flushes you out with grenades, reacts to your grenade throws, calls for backup and takes cover where it can find it. I can't imagine going through the whole game WITHOUT using the bullet-time reflex power of your character. It would become a REALLY frustrating shooter quickly...simply because in a 'fair' firefight against decent enemies with a bit of brains, the odds are NOT in your favor much.

Granted there are games that I've gotten good enough at where I CAN stand it...but that's not a usual thing.

Actually I like some of the stuff you suggested here!

The magma pit thing has been done once that I know of in the game. That's the last mission of the Tarikoss SF. I DO like the mission too!

I always wonder why the city has no NATURAL disasters or emergencies like other cities. Heroes spend a lot of time saving people from dangers that aren't the brainchild of a supervillain.

It would be neat to use my powers(or other skills) to help save people from something other than 2(insert random villain group here) guys that have them backed into a corner.

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How does him not knowing how to code something like that relevant in any way?

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It's quite true that not knowing how AI works doesn't mean you can't not like how it works. However, I think the thrust of the argument is that making AI behave 'intelligently' isn't a trivial thing.

Anyone can make 'AI' that can kick the player's [censored]. You just have to make it cheat. Lots of RTS games employ this tactic for their AI opponents. They simply enable the computer opponent to do things that a human player cannot...like simultaneously move two attacking forces into position to engage the player while 'clicking' on build queues to produce more forces for backup and managing their research trees all the while. You only have one mouse and can only click on one thing at a time...you have now automatically gained a 'challenge'. But its not really a fair one.

The problem is getting AI to do things as if it truly were 'thinking' rather than cheating. That not only takes decent programming...but for an MMO, a whole lot of server side resources as well. Tabula Rasa(from my understanding) had an entire server dedicated to just mob AI. Of course, that was an exceedingly expensive game to run and it ended up not running anymore.

The point is that to give us(the average joe player) a fighting chance, they had to take the stupid route with some mob behavior. Now that may not be desirable in a lot of cases...but that's what we currently have.

I pretty much agree with Sam on this.

I also don't think more difficult is the issue for this game. More variety is closer to where the sweet spot is for me.

The last real hurdle for playing this game(for me) was removed when real numbers got introduced. I could now look and see the results of my slotting and the exact effect of powers and just make decisions based on what I liked for my toons. I don't look up builds and pour over guides...because I think that's largely pointless unless there is some high performance ideal you are trying to achieve.

The turth is I've been on teams and TFs with people who use mids and forum guides to build the perfect whatever and been just as effective if not more than them because I prefer to play by observing the mobs and what they're doing and playing to best support my team by using my powers in the optimal way.

I hate being a sheep and just following the crowd in any case.

Anyway...more variety in missions and gameplay? I vote yes. Making the game harder overall? Can't say that's needed right now.

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<QR>

When I opened this thread I expected a lot more "In my day" and "Get off my lawn." I was disappointed.

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Get the Freem off my lawn!

Punks!

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If the issue was near the servers but upstream, it should only impact one coast at most.

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Yeah but my other current online games: L4D, TF2 are playing just fine.

Maybe I'm just cursed by the lag demons of COX.

I've been getting lag on and off on several servers...and this was before Issue 15 hit.

Its not consistent...but there will be sudden stuttering and/or rubberbanding. Very brief most times...but noticeable enough if you are paying attention.

It didn't start with issue 14...it seems to have developed somewhere in between...so I'm leaning toward it being a server/routing issue of some sort.

I posted about this on the Infinity server section...but then realized I was getting it on other servers as well. So far I've seen it on Victory, Justice, Infinity and Liberty too.

Some others were with me when I was experiencing the worst of it a week or so ago on Infinity.

I duno...maybe its the fact that we're constantly adding things to the game and not upgrading the servers enough. In any case...I did /bug what I was experiencing...not sure if it's getting looked at. Maybe it requires some backend server work.

If its one thing I can always get behind...its QoL fixes/upgrades that add that nice extra touch to the game.

Heck...if they had an entire issue that was all bugfixes/old content revamp and QoL I'd squeal like a girl probably.

Dear devs,

I am now in dominator Nirvana. Thanks for the buff!

I now want to slaughter more things...a lot!

*sets out to slaughter*

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Don't get so wound up buddy. It's only the forums.

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You keep stating the obvious...wait! Are these for your personal notes? If so, then carry on.

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Next thing you know you'll be picking up your own tears from frustration.

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Nah...these are just tears of laughter at you. But thanks for sharing how you were wounded before on the forums and now you're looking out for my interests. It's touching...creepy and pathetic...but touching too.

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Also, good job on the "growing up assumption," I was totally expecting you to say that earlier.

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Ah...this is where you play 'wise and omniscient sage of the forums'. How cute.

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I'm disappointed though, your retorts are pretty weaksauce.

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And yet they get a rise out of you...so in essence you're weak to weaksauce? Ok...that just got confusing...

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Since I play a lot of melee toons, I simply avoid COT from the time the Spectral Lords appear up until the time they disappear for good (around 40 or so). It's a pity because there are some great stories that I like about the COT, but the stories aren't worth the aggravation of dealing with the Spectrals.

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It is a pity...I solo a lot and play a fair number of melee toons, mostly brutes...but some scrappers and stalkers as well. I never avoid COT. Dealing with Daemon Lords is just about knowing what your enemy can do and compensating. A single stun/hold/sleep of any kind cancels the aura they turn on. And even in the absence of those things...popping a yellow or 2 helps.

Of all the things one could run from in this game...Spectrals are a nice challenge...but that's just me I guess. A waste to not do story arcs you want to because you're afraid of ghosts

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Because just like you, I like to troll as well.

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Perhaps one day, when you grow up, you'll really understand the meaning of the word troll. Until such time keep at it, it's good for laughs.

I have confirmed it happening on several other servers as well. It has aslo happened to me several times while soloing.

In addition to rubberbanding...enemies will do jerky movements even after they are dead. Sometimes even shifting position altogether.

I /bugged it last night...but since bug reports never really get a response...I have no idea if and when it will get looked at...something is up though.

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I play the game how I want to play it. And I'll complain if I want to.

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I too, play the game how I want to play it. And I'll find your complaining laughable if I want to.

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It's a game. Get over it. I don't even read the lolfanfics and lolstories of this game. If I wanted the actual story I go to Paragonwiki.

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I'm fully aware that its a game. I don't have anything to get over. And I don't even take the lolpowerlevelers and lolfarmers seriously. I like some actual story with my game but I don't find I need to go to Paragonwiki to get it most of the time.

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Otherwise, I will continue to powerlevel past the meaningless levels "in my point of view."

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See, so since this isn't a hurdle or issue for you...why even bother to post in a thread that states that leveling sucks?

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You would get new story arcs to read and experience, you would be using the MA the way the Devs envisioned it, and maybe, just maybe, you would be spending less time here on the forums complaining about things. That's 2 wins for you and 1 for everyone else on the forums, so we all come out ahead.

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I approve this post!!!

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Unfortunately, the lower levels being moronic in both CoH and Cov is a problem that DOES exist; at least for other people.

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The lower levels in COH are far from moronic. Your choice of starting contacts based on your origin is 3 times or more that of COV.

That COV has too little starting contacts is true...but at the same time you don't HAVE to do the contact missions. Street sweeping til you hit level 5 is all you need and then you move on to Port Oakes and deal with your broker.

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If you love jumping down a Snake hole 50,000 times, then obviously this does not apply to you.

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Don't jump down the snake holes.

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You completely lack the authority to tell me to leave, so this is a non-issue.

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That's funny...because you were the one who got up in arms over it...not me.

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I don't think anyone - certainly not myself - is advocating the removal of levels 1-20.

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That's not what some of the posters in this, and other threads of this type, are saying. People in this thread have been saying that they don't want to play the first 12, 20 or 30 levels at all. That's not going to become something the developers ever encourage.

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What has been begged for, FOR YEARS, is some additional things to do to make these levels go by faster.

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How would you make them go by faster? I'm curious. You could add more missions and contacts but the xp is going to be the same. You now have patrol XP plus the level smoothing that was done a few issues ago. What exactly could be added(aside from free levels) that would literally make them go by faster?

Asking for more low level content is not making the low levels faster...its giving you more mission options. I'm all for that, but I'm not for making the low levels any less significant in the life of a COX toon. And that seems to be what people in this thread were asking for more than additional low level content.

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Since powering through the lower levels via the MA is verboten, we need new low-level stuff to do more than ever before. If you don't see it that way I am sorry, but plenty of others do.

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See, you're nicely contradicting yourself here. You just said you don't want to skip any levels. But you want the levels to go by even faster than they are now...at lower levels...that would equate to the same thing.

See, people shouted that they wanted alternative content to do at lower levels. MA came and they got it...but what they really wanted was easy power leveling/farming at lower levels. Now that MA has gotten 'fixed' and you can still use it to skip all the lower level content you want...you actually want dev content that makes you level faster in the lower levels. So yeah...you don't want alternate content...you want content that lets you blow through it like MA farms used to. You're not going to get that.

I suspect that GR will bring lots(YMMV) of new low level stuff...and people will still be posting here about how there is nothing new to do at low levels and how they hate the game pre 20, 30, 40 etc.

Its laughable and more than a bit pathetic.

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As others have noted, I never cease to be amazed at the amount of "if you don't like [x], well just leave the game!" we see around here. OMG let's don't ever fix anything, if people don't like it LEAVE and can i have your stuff!!!!

*disgust*

I don't view that as healthy for the game, but obviously mileage varies.

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I never ceased to be amazed at how people can so completely misunderstand what someone else is saying...especially when they point to a previous post that makes their point clear.

My advice was that if you find the game has started to become a grind...play other things and play COX a bit less. It takes the grindy edge off. I never told you to leave the game.

You want a 'fix' for a problem that doesn't exist. If you have played the game all this time and don't like a significant portion of it that needs to be there(because lets face it...they are not going to let you skip levels), then you need to work around that or accept that its there and move on.

Everytime I see these kinds of posts, it makes me laugh. This is an MMO, no one is getting automatic bumps to their desired level in most other MMOs just because they think they have somehow payed their dues. Linear level progression is how this game...and most other MMOs are designed.

Considering how quickly this game lets you level now compared to a few yers ago...it's simply not needed. Play on a team with some good friends at a reasonable difficulty and the levels start to rack up.

If you think I'm telling you to leave the game, then that's up to you. What I AM telling you to do is deal with reality. COX isn't the only existing PC game...play some other stuff and chill out. No one is removing the 1 - 20 portion of the game just because you want it NAO.

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Should come as no surprise I'm bored to tears---to anyone.

I've tried and tried and tried, but I can't force myself to even PL in my own MAs.

Even my SG/VG PLs make me yawn to the point of pukeage. Or, at the least, somnambulance.

Maybe I need to take a long, ambiguous break...

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As stated in my previous post... play something else!

It'll do wonders for your perspective. You don't HAVE to continuously grind away if it has gotten to you.

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What I like is the choice to do WTF I want to do either way.

SO, if I feel like running a new toon through the lower levels then I do, if not then I power past them. The game is setup so you have the choice to do what you want and that is WAI.

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The game isn't 'setup' so you can power past the lower levels. The lower levels go by quickly because that's when you are forming the basic feel of your character.

You have the choice to power level past them...but that's not a developer-implemented feature. It's just a symptom of human nature that some people look for that option. They have already done numerous xp smoothing and level curve smoothing on this game at ALL levels...the lower levels go by so fast now that you can hardly complete a single arc before hitting level 12.

The developers want the game to be fun at all levels if possible...but some people will complain even if you could skip the first 20. I don't think we need any more level bumps at the lower levels. Veteran or not.

Here's a thought...

Play other games!!! *GASP*

Unthinkable I know. Still I have 3 and a half servers full of alts and I still find the entire game to be fun enough to roll more toons. The reason is that I don't sit and continuosly slog through this game everytime I'm at the PC. When I roll a new alt...I don't HAVE to get to 25 NOW so that I can get SOs and stamina. I can play with my SG mates and friends or just have fun casually.

When the game starts to get tedious...I don't sit there wishing for speed levels...I play something else so it's still fresh when I'm ready to play again. Expand your gaming horizons. Get on Steam...play some casual games(Peggle and AudioSurf are fun). Play some Portal, try Dawn of War 2, Sins of a Solar Empire. Heck, try some free MMOs to really get a feel for what grindyness is.

If you sit and fixate on any game for countless hours...you WILL burn out. I can sit and play COX for an hour or so...then log out and play something else on my hard drive. It stops me from building frustration at the fact that I can't jump the next 5 levels RIGHT NOW.

Also, being one of the most solo-fixed players I know, I still find teaming up with my friends and SG mates and just playing passes the time and levels in a fun and efficient way.

Bottom line...stop making hitting level x or y the primary focus of your COX life and just enjoy the game. New characters can be fun for the fact that they ARE incomplete and you have to work a bit more to get them to perform.

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I have been experiencing the same thing. I have noticed it gets worse when
A: we are running a lower level SF ie....Ice minstral or
B: when we have a team of 8 running regular contacts....
When I am running with a smaller team it is not occuring

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This is exactly what I noticed. I was solo for most of the night and it was fine...then once I got onto a team and we hit 7 or 8 people...it became very bad, very fast.

Ok...for the past few days there has been odd lag on Infinity. There are times when it isn't there...but last night, late, I was with a group of villains in Sharkhead and as we hit our second mission there was constant rubberbanding and hitching of enemy groups and delays in power activation.

This continued into the next mission as well, although it stopped for brief periods. Is there some technical reason that's been mentioned as to why this is happening? Or are we getting the standard new-issue lag early as way of a present to the communinty?