Siolfir

In another thread it was suggested that the Blaster damage cap be raised to 600% and in another the melee damage modifier increased; at a 600% damage cap they'd outperform every other AT at their respective damage caps relative to the scale of the power.

While I don't think it's an end-all-be-all solution for Blasters, it does at least address the issue where Brutes and Scrappers at their caps deal more damage over time with the same attacks than Blasters do. For that reason I think it would be a good place to start.

If they do gain focus, I would expect it to work only once per activation and not once per target; that somewhat preserves the balance since you're still using the higher endurance cost of an AoE.

That's what I've been saying for years - Placate doesn't really help your damage all that much (and for every other non-AS power, actually hurts it). A shorter animation for it would greatly increase the effectiveness in terms of how it helps your damage. What it does do is help your burst damage right afterwards and/or give you a break from one thing attacking for a few seconds, which may be all you need to finish a fight. But that doesn't happen often enough that I ever slot it with more than the base slot.

If I get really bored at work today I'll add APP powers - only 1 set of which can critical for now - and post the pool attacks that are affected. The biggest winners are snipes, because of the 8 second animation.

Nope - on DPA the 0% critical chance of unhidden AS is higher than hidden AS, without Placate at all. I edited my post a bit ago due to finally reading Synapse's comments about it; they're not just shaving the full 2 second interruption but also increasing the base damage out of hide from 2.5 to 2.76.

A 1 second animation would make Placate work better offensively for almost every other attack, though; right now it's of marginal use for anything other than Assassin's Strike as far as improving your DPS, and as people keep telling me even that isn't great due to interruption. Part of that is due to the overhead that it adds, since it only increases DPA for powers that have a longer animation that it has, a 100% critical chance while hidden that do a 100% damage critical, and you're in a situation where you're not taking damage and it won't be broken. While I haven't done the calculations for each set I can already just glance and tell that after the changes it always hurts some sets - EM, for instance, cannot offensively benefit from Placate now except for AS since none of the long-animation attacks have a full critical, and after the changes AS's DPA will go down compared to being unhidden.

Based on the description it's almost like the change simply gives you a second power for free that increases your sustained DPS; you can use hidden status or Placate to switch from "DPS mode" to "burst damage mode". Since single-target burst damage is often (not always, but usually) irrelevant in team play I forsee a lot of people deciding to never use Placate offensively.


Edit: started another thread showing the effects of Placate on the primary powers; currently Assassin's Strike is helped but after the changes it won't be (math earlier in this thread for that). Responses about Placate's use for damage could/should probably go there.

In a single hit, it will do more damage - scale 7.0 compared to scale 2.76, or 5.52 on a critical out of hide.

However, over time the new AS out of hide, even at a 0% critical rate, will have a higher DPA than AS from hidden status. I edited a post I made about it here, showing that with 2 stacks of Assassin's Focus you'll have better DPA than Energy Transfer... with it's old animation. And that's normalized, not even accounting for Kinetic Melee's short animation (until fixed after i22) - KM hits new levels of ridiculousness.

If old ET could carry EM into getting nerfed all on its own, I'd say something that can outperform it on a regular basis will certainly help Stalker single target damage.

Yes, but soon it will be changed - those are only how it comes out with a 10% double-critical chance with the current scale and animation time.

Alas, it will no longer be 1337 in i22. (or when teamed)

You were spending too much time in the Stalker forums and they couldn't see you.

I like the suggested changes to Ice Control, by the way.

Yeah, the numbers just lead me to believe that it's going to be around a 1 second trim. I should pop into that thread, I guess; at least then I can ask.

Edit: given the information about the damage scale changing and my edits to the post earlier, these are incorrect (either too high due to no chance of a double crit, or too low because the damage scale used was wrong) but I'm not bothering to recalculate them - they won't even come close when compared to the out-of-hidden numbers; basically all of the conclusions here are irrelevant if they go through with their plan as listed by Synapse in the quotes above.


While I'm at it, since I didn't include it before:
AS from Placate (all scale 7.25 to include the 10% "double critical" chance):
3 sec animation: scale 1.484/sec
2.67 sec (KM): scale 1.570/sec
3.17 sec (StJ): scale 1.408/sec
3.67 sec (DB, shorter Placate): scale 1.337/sec
3.67 sec (BS, NB): scale 1.308/sec

A 1 second trim gives the out-of-hidden AS a 1.225 at 10% chance, so even the worst Placate+AS still slightly beats it at the cost of possibly being interrupted. The more I look at the numbers, the more I think they're simply going to trim one second out of the wind-up; anything else just doesn't make a lot of sense from a balance standpoint within the bounds of the AT itself. As for balance between the other melee ATs, maybe someone else can run some attack chains based on those assumptions and see what the numbers look like in a chain compared to mid-to-high-end Scrapper and Brute single-target chains? While I like this idea, I think that a one-second trim is a little short of pushing Stalkers past either of those two over time, so it would only be part of the solution.

What's funny is that until I just started doing these I didn't notice that Dual Blades has a shorter Placate animation (1.43 sec) than the others (1.5 sec), which makes it a full server tick (0.132 sec) less than all of the others at 1.584 arcanatime vs 1.716 for the others.

The damage scale I used is too low; yes, that means that the damage goes up even more!

In addition... ...according to this the time will be coming down by the full 2 seconds.

That means that these will be the out-of-hidden status numbers for Assassin's Strike as proposed, after the powers are normalized (most will do this anyway):
"normalized" @ 3 sec hidden/1 sec unhidden:
scale 2.76 damage, 1.188 sec, 10% chance of critical: scale 2.556/sec

Now, just in case the normal chance of critical doesn't happen, and it's only with Assassin's Focus (33% chance per stack):
0 stacks (no critical): scale 2.323/sec <--- STILL higher than from hidden status (2.21/sec)
1 stack (33% chance): scale 3.09/sec
2 stacks (66% chance): scale 3.857/sec <--- Better than OLD Energy Transfer (at 3.838)!
3 stacks (99% chance): scale 4.623/sec

Until things are normalized, here are how the other sets fare:

Kinetic Melee: 0.67 sec, 0.924 arcanatime (we have a winner!)
0 stacks (no critical): scale 2.987/sec
1 stack (33% chance): scale 3.973/sec
2 stacks (66% chance): scale 4.958/sec <--- what is this I don't even...
3 stacks (99% chance): scale 5.944/sec <---
10% chance: scale 3.286/sec

Blade Sets (BS, DB, NB): 1.67 sec, 1.848 arcanatime
0 stacks (no critical): scale 1.494/sec
1 stack (33% chance): scale 1.986/sec
2 stacks (66% chance): scale 2.479/sec
3 stacks (99% chance): scale 2.972/sec
10% chance: scale 1.643/sec

Street Justice: 1.17 sec, 1.320 arcanatime
0 stacks (no critical): scale 2.091/sec
1 stack (33% chance): scale 2.781/sec
2 stacks (66% chance): scale 3.471/sec
3 stacks (99% chance): scale 4.161/sec
10% chance: scale 2.3/sec

Essentially what the change says is, "We decided to up Stalker DPS by giving every primary something that can outperform old Energy Transfer over time using only 2 attacks in between, only it's on a shorter recharge and doesn't have self damage. Oh, and you get it at level 6. Enjoy!" I'll admit, until I read the posts, I was positive that they wouldn't do this; they still may not, but if the changes go through as proposed I have to agree with the comment that Stalkers will suddenly shoot up the charts for single target damage once you add this in to your attack chains.

They already have the highest damage in solo burst (that's the last chart) and general case situations (the middle chart); of course that assumes the same attack and no outside damage buffs which isn't going to be the case most of the time. Adding to their damage cap pushes their high-end performance past that of everybody when capped, including a Stalker at the 31% critical rate at their current modifier.

I think it's the right answer for Blasters. I'll have to reserve judgement on the changes to Stalkers until I see how they make the changes - the addition of a short animation Assassin's Strike to an attack chain could boost their single-target damage by a lot, but if they leave the animation time close to the same it won't help a lot of sets. The degree of change matters a great deal there, and they didn't say how much of the windup time they'd get rid of. I also find it very hard to believe that they'd shorten ALL of them by the 2 second interrupt, since that would leave most of them at 1 second or less. You'll note that if they're using the same attacks, currently Stalkers are actually dead last in solo burst of the ATs I added to the list. Assassin's Strike from hide and a guaranteed critical is the only reason they're even remotely competitive in single-target burst damage.

a) didn't catch that you wanted both, I was thinking either/or due to balance considerations; and
b) see my previous post - at their respective caps, which is what I was talking about since we were discussing a damage cap increase, Scrappers are doing more damage than Brutes. Brutes can do more below that until you hit a certain level of +dam that I don't remember and don't feel like recalculating at the moment.

For more silly numbers, a Corruptor at the damage cap getting Scourge on every hit goes to a 7.5 scale, which is below the a Stalker with the full team buff at the current AT modifier and a 600% cap... which is kindof why I was assuming that the 1.2 AND higher cap just wasn't going to happen. Either way, what they have in mind has been presented and seems very similar to some of the ideas that popped up in the buff thread.

Inherent Assassin's Strike wouldn't be a bad change, but that opens the Pandora's Box of inherent Hide (which is more central to the AT) and giving back the secondary power as well. While not undesired, it's a lot of work for the powers team and what do you add to Ninjitsu?

As for the comment on nerfing Brute damage... they did. And I thought that in their announcement they said that they nerfed it more than they did, but I was wrong and it was lowered to +675%, not 675% total (+575%). Even that amount would have Brutes doing more than Blasters with melee attacks, but Stalkers at their cap would outdo them at a 10% critical rate at +361% damage and above, and Blasters using ranged attacks or Scrappers would do far-and-away more damage even without taking criticals into account for the Scrapper.

But the reason I'd advocate adding to the damage cap for Blasters instead of nerfing Brutes again in this case is because of Scrappers, which would need a huge nerf to be in-line with Blasters as far as damage-to-survivability. There's also the point that Judgement means that every AT has access to a high damage AoE in the endgame, so Blasters are in the same boat as Stalkers with adding nothing special.

To look at a couple of proposals and how they affects thing, the damage cap increases are in yellow and adjusting the Stalker AT modifier to match Scrapper damage is in green - assuming you're using an identical so that the damage is only affected by buffs and AT-specific means:
6 * 1 * 1.31 = 7.86 (Stalker, at proposed cap and MAX 31% critical rate)
5 * 1.125 * 1.31 = 7.36875 (Stalker, at current cap with Scrapper damage modifier and MAX 31% critical rate)
6 * 1.125 = 6.75 (Blaster, ranged attack, at proposed cap)
6 * 1 * 1.1 = 6.6 (Stalker, at proposed cap and 10% critical rate)
5 * 1 * 1.31 = 6.55 (Stalker, at current cap and MAX 31% critical rate)
8.5 * 0.75 = 6.375 (Brute, at old cap)
5 * 1.125 * 1.1 = 6.1875 (Scrapper against lt or above, at current cap; Stalker, at current cap with Scrapper damage modifier and base 10% critical rate)
6 * 1 = 6 (Blaster, melee attack, at proposed cap; Stalker, at proposed cap using attack that does not critical)
5 * 1.125 * 1.05 = 5.90625 (Scrapper against minion or below, at current cap)
7.75 * 0.75 = 5.8125 (Brute at current cap)

Here's how they'd do for "normal" performance:
2 * 1.125 * 1.31 = 2.9475 (Stalker at Scrapper modifier with 100% slotting, at MAX 31% critical rate)
2.5 * 1.125 = 2.8125 (Blaster, ranged attack with 100% slotting and 50% defiance buff)
2 * 1 * 1.31 = 2.62 (Stalker with 100% slotting and MAX 31% critical rate)
3.4 * 0.75 = 2.55 (Brute with 100% slotting and 70 Fury)
2.5 * 1 = 2.5 (Blaster, melee attack with 100% slotting and 50% defiance buff)
2 * 1.125 * 1.1 = 2.475 (Scrapper with 100% slotting, against lt or above; Stalker at Scrapper modifier with 100% slotting, at base 10% critical rate)
2 * 1.125 * 1.05 = 2.3625 (Scrapper with 100% slotting, against minion or below)
2 * 1 * 1.1 = 2.2 (Stalker with 100% slotting at 10% critical rate)

And looking at short-term burst:
4.125 * 1.125 = 4.640625 (Blaster, ranged attack with 100% slotting, 50% defiance, BU and Aim)
2.8 * 1.125 * 1.31 = 4.1265 (Stalker at Scrapper modifier with 100% slotting and BU, at MAX 31% critical rate)
4.125 * 1 = 4.125 (Blaster, melee attack with 100% slotting, 50% defiance, BU and Aim)
3 * 1.125 * 1.1 = 3.7125 (Scrapper with 100% slotting and BU, against lt or above)
2.8 * 1 * 1.31 = 3.668 (Stalker with 100% slotting and BU, at MAX 31% critical rate)
3 * 1.125 * 1.05 = 3.54375 (Scrapper with 100% slotting and BU, against minion or below)
2.8 * 1.125 * 1.1 = 3.465 (Stalker at Scrapper modifier with 100% slotting and BU, at base 10% critical rate)
4.2 * 0.75 = 3.15 (Brute with 100% slotting, 70 Fury, and BU)
2.8 * 1 * 1.1 = 3.08 (Stalker with 100% slotting and BU, at 10% critical rate)

Given how the charts shift around with the various buffs, I'd rather see Blasters get the higher damage cap - putting them at the top of everything when capped until a Stalker gets the max teammate buff for criticals, and Stalkers get a higher AT modifier.

I think they're coming up with new assets just because they don't want to give Dominators Dark Servant. >.>

I PM'd Synapse about the terrible ranged_stun and melee_stun modifiers for Corruptors (they're the lowest in the game, below the tie-for-second-to-last that Blasters sit at) when looking at why Weaken's numbers seemed off for them, and was told that they do seem really low. They've remained untouched. Keep in mind that YMMV with PMs.

Yep!

Blasters, yes, there's not much reason that a Brute at their damage cap should do more than a Blaster at their cap with the same attack; Scrappers already do more than Brutes at their cap due to their criticals, so why increase them even further? Just to put them that much farther ahead of Stalkers again?

If I were going to be my usual, cynical self, I'd comment that they'll get a revamp in the manner of i13 PvP - driving all Stalker players into doing something else by making it intolerable for the people who like the AT and want small tweaks with huge sweeping changes that wreck the feel and force an enormous paradigm shift for something that's overall less fun, and thus reducing the already-low population to a negligible amount.

That said, I'm hoping that they looked at the Stalker buff thread that I started during GR beta for ideas.

I'll put forth that only a moron would believe that Dark Armor is the only set that can withstand a Sapper onslaught, a wall of Psi damage, or that it is the only set with resistance to Toxic damage. Let alone the only set that can do all of the above.

It's not the best set for drain resistance, by the way. It's about even with Stone Armor for endurance drain/recovery resistance, but requires more toggles at a higher total endurance cost than just Rooted (which has the same amount of drain resistance that DA gets) + Granite, so I put it behind there, and both lag far behind Electric Armor's capped recovery/drain resistance. One of the sets you included, Super Reflexes, has absolutely NO endurance drain protection beyond hoping you don't get hit, yet every set can get a load of defense from IOs.

I'll give you that at its base, Dark Armor handles Psi better than any other set, with Willpower's layered approach being debatably better. But every set has a means of dealing with it - whether in heals, +maxhp (effectively extra resistance), resistance (the only area Dark Armor excels at handling Psi compared to the others), or defense.

Less hyperbole, more facts.