Sarrate

I know this is an (older) thread, but I wanted to clarify since when skimming I didn't see anyone else make this point:

HayMaker - A lvl26 would deal 46.63 base dmg. Fully slotted it would deal 93.26 dmg.

Crane Kick - A lvl9 would deal 34.52 base dmg. Fully slotted it would deal 67.314 dmg. That's ignoring the fact this is impossible, because even 6 even lvl TOs would only +48% dmg. At that point, it would deal 51.0896 dmg. That's also ignoring the fact you can only pick it up at lvl8, so at most it would have 3 slots. That means 42.8048 dmg.

On top of that, GP hit the nail on the head:

In other words, even if a Tanker or Scrapper were using the same attack (Scrapper CK vs Scrapper Haymaker, or Tanker CK vs Tanker Haymaker) Crane Kick would deal more damage than Haymaker.

That screenshot doesn't show it well because there's only one debuff, but what is going on is it lists the debuffs at full strength under "Base Defense", then propagates the result to all other defenses.

Example

Nope, they're reduced too.

[edit: Hmm, well, it's shown as full strength for Base Defense, but then the debuffed amount is listed for others. So, kinda.]

I think you're very unlucky when you look at your combat numbers, then.

Proof Res resists Res debuffs

Lethal Res: 66.79%
Lethal Res Debuffs: -183%
Final Res: 6.03%
Numberz: -183 * 0.3321 = -60.7743
66.79 - 60.7743 = 6.0157

Compare that to my energy resist (8.29% before, -159.53% after) under the same strength of res debuffs.

(Note: The debuffs in Combat Attributes are shown before resists.)

[edit: Compare that to what unresistible debuffs look like.]

Defense numbers were much higher than they are now. I think Weave was like, 10% defense. Of course, this was before the critter accuracy change, so GMs/AVs (+0) were rocking a 90% base tohit.

(To give you an idea how wonky defense was back then, I saw a Blaster build (and demo record) with 45% def using Weave, CJ, etc. It was just enough to floor +0 minions.)

Healing Flames only used to be a ~17% heal on Tankers (coincidentally, that was 25% of a Scrapper's hp) and had a recharge of 60 seconds. It was massively buffed post ED / GDN.

Their sonic grenades are location based, not target based. If you see the debuff on you (or are standing in the debuff field) you can escape it by moving out of it.

While nasty, they did reduce the potency of the debuff. It used to be an unresistible res debuff, but not it is resistible.

[edit: You still don't want to stand in it, though.]

Headsplitter has a base damage of ~162.66. I'm betting you're looking at MIDs, which is averaging in its static 15% crit chance.

Yes. What those links are showing is their "scale" damage, ie: the damage before modifiers. A Blaster has a ranged damage mod of 1.125 and a Corruptor has a ranged damage mod of 0.75. This means a Blaster will deal 50% more damage (before debuffs, Defiance, and Scourge) than a Corruptor.

For example, compare the damage of Blaster Fire Blast to that of Corruptor Fire Blast (excluded the dot, but it has the same proportion).

Corruptor: 41.71
Blaster: 62.56

41.71 * 1.5 = ~62.56

[edit: Btw, to find the final damage of an attack, you'd take Scale Damage * Damage Mod * 55.61 (damage of a lvl50 entity with a damage mod of 1). The damage listed in the collumn on your link can be a bit off due to things like built-in crits, chance for damage (like fire dots), etc.]

This is the first time I've ever seen anyone make this claim.

Against All Odds is significantly stronger than Invincibility. They both have the same duration and pulse time, but AAO has 8 debuffs (one for each damage debuff) and provides a damage buff (higher damage output results in higher threat).

It's one of the strongest (if not the strongest) auras in the game.

I mean no offense when I say this, but the first thing that came to mind when reading this was Statesman's infamous "gameboy story."

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I personally haven't had any issues with the Protean fight. My friend (who doesn't know the game quite as well, but isn't an idiot either) had a heck of a time avoiding the Power Siphon due to animation rooting.

It was a more interesting fight than most, but I'd urge developers to be very cautious about adding too much forced movement to fights in the future. It can work well in some games, but due to animation rooting, CoX does not handle it very gracefully. Slow attacks already have a bad stigma in CoX, adding more movement based fights would make that worse.

Note: The soft cap is 45% defense, but the hard cap is much higher. Defense above 45% isn't useful except in situations where enemies have access to tohit buffs and/or defense debuffs.

(You probably know that, but I just wanted to be clear the 45% "cap" isn't absolute.)

Not to mention that at lower levels (ie <20) the AT modifiers haven't fully diverged yet, either (it'd be between 1.00 and 0.75).

(As an aside, I bet if Castle were to do it all over, Fury would provide a smaller +dmg buff at low levels like the updaed Vigilance does.)

Alignment power you get for reinforcing your alignment as a villain.

The solution to those crutial first few seconds is to get to the spawn first. That can buy 5-10s, which is enough for 2-3 Taunts (depending on recharge), not to mention AoEs/cones. If you're keeping Taunt up on most mobs, then knockback isn't that much of an issue. Just rotate to Taunt the ones knocked back next cycle.

As for tohit debuffs, Taunt is autohit (as you know), and several sets with stronger auras have a tohit check and pulse slower.

To the best of my knowledge of threat mechanics, that would gut the top end threat generation (ie: with Taunt, etc) by up to half. Yes, it would help the low end and those who play w/o threat in mind, but the fallout is those who do play with threat in mind could be severely impacted. I really don't want to imagine what losing up to half my threat generation would do against competetive Brutes/Scrappers.

By drastically lowering the top end to minorly increase the low end, you could make things currently possible impossible for those that care (ie: high end threat generation), while making the possible easier for those who don't. If I can hold aggro off aura Scrappers and Brutes (who don't Taunt), then I don't have to worry about holding aggro off Blasters at all.

What do you think that would do to my fun? (I'm not saying my fun is more important than anyone else's, but you can't make an argument on fun and ignore others' fun related concerns.)

I was one of those who made the past forum comments before I was aware of all the nuances of threat that I know now. I used to be a lot more casual with my threat generation on other sets, relegating Taunt to a 'sometimes' power (AVs, grouping mobs, etc). Now I use it routinely and take threat very seriously, especially since taunt effects have become more and more prevalent in the game (Shield Scrappers, teaming with Brutes). Being complacent with threat generation now means you will lose it to those ATs.

Okay, that's what I thought, but when you say things like:

It's an exaggeration. You just proved that WP has other options, and I've personally held aggro of all four STF Patrons through Ghost Widow's 30s Black Hole. To be fair, I don't think there were any aura Scrappers, but I was completely unable to do anything for 30s, yet I still succeeded, against +4 AVs no less.

You started this thread with the suggestion of removing the tohit debuff from RttC which would most definitely effect my threat generation in a negative fashion.

As for balance implications of the change, all I know is that the short duration is intentional, so I'm not sure how much luck you'll have with that. (I wager that datamining WP Tankers would show that they aren't underperforming in Rewards/Time, so the devs probably won't be inclined to make any changes.)


I'll be honest, would I trust a random PUG WP Tank to hold aggro? No. Is that frustrating? Yes. (I rarely PUG, mind you.) Do I think all auras should be so strong that their targets will ignore everyone else except them just by standing there? Probably not. (It'd make more sense to lower the duration on auras and lengthen Gauntlet.)

From what I understand of the threat mechanics, I think it could use a lot of refinement - but that's so deep in the belly of the beast that it's highly unlikely.

Sorry to nitpick, but builds do not have 350+ hp/sec passive regen, even with saturated RttC.

Hp/Sec = (MaxHp * Regen) / 240
350 = (3212 * Regen) / 240
(350 * 240) / 3212 = Regen
26.15... = Regen

1.00 = 100% Regen
26.15 = 2,615% Regen

FH = 75%
Health = 40%
RttC = 350% (saturated)
Total = 465% unenhanced, 906.75% slotted (95% enh)

Assuming that you count the RttC double stack (which lasts only a server tick or so), that's still only an additional 250% (base) to 487.5% (slotted). That adds up to 1,394.25% regen. That's only halfway to what you claimed.

It's good, don't get me wrong, but not what you claim.

I count Taunt as a viable option - one I know from experience works. I've held aggro off everything but a Taunting/Confronting Scrapper (neither of which I've ever actually teamed with - I'm 100% positive I'd lose to a Brute, though). (Admittedly, I'm Fire Melee, but that could be a hindrance against AVs as I lack any additional debuffs.)

I always assumed you knew how to and could reliably hold aggro off aura Scrappers. Given what you're arguing here, was I mistaken?

A Scrapper without an aura (Invuln / Shield) won't pull aggro off you. I can assure you, however, if you don't Taunt, a Scrapper with an aura will. I used to do it regularly on my DM/Invuln back in the days of SOs. (I'd steal aggro of Invuln Tankers who didn't Taunt, too.)

Base, Taunt lasts 41 seconds. Slotted that increases to ~80 seconds. It's pretty easy to keep that duration going on far more than 5 mobs, especially if you have any amount of recharge in it (mine recharges in ~5.5s).

The trick on fast / aggressive teams is to get to the spawn 5-10s before your group to ensure get setup.

* Jump to the far side of the spawn while Taunting the closest
* AoE
* Use your attacks (if Taunt isn't up)
* Taunt a different portion of the spawn
* etc


[edit: Also, applying taunt effects generate threat, too. It's why Taunt (which deals no damage) will pull aggro off a squishy. It's also why Tankers can stand next to mobs and go afk while the group won't pull aggro off them (aside from WP against +2s or higher, iirc).]

Burn could always miss. It just ticked so fast (5 times a second) you likely never even noticed it.

Unlike +Defense and -ToHit, +Resistance and -Damage do not stack linearly. As far as the game is concerned, +Defense and -ToHit are exactly the same. The same cannot be said for +Resistance and -Damage. The game calculates the damage to be done, then reduces it by resistance.

In other words, instead of this (if it worked like +Def / -ToHit):
DamageTaken = Damage * (1 - Resistance - DamageDebuff)

It does this:
DamageTaken = Damage * (1 - DamageDebuff) * (1 - Resistance)

So, suppose a character has 0% res and a 25% damage debuff is hit by a 200 damage attack:
DamageTaken = Damage * (1 - DamageDebuff) * (1 - Resistance)
DamageTaken = 200 * (1 - 0.25) * (1 - 0) = 150
That's a 25% reduction from what they'd take before the debuff (200 dmg)

Now suppose a character has 50% res and a 25% damage debuff is hit by a 200 damage attack:
DamageTaken = Damage * (1 - DamageDebuff) * (1 - Resistance)
DamageTaken = 200 * (1 - 0.25) * (1 - 0.5) = 75
Again, that's a 25% reduction from what they'd before the debuff (100 dmg).

Now suppose a character has 90% res and a 25% damage debuff is hit by a 200 damage attack:
DamageTaken = Damage * (1 - DamageDebuff) * (1 - Resistance)
DamageTaken = 200 * (1 - 0.25) * (1 - 0.9) = 15
Again, that's a 25% reduction from what they'd before the debuff (20 dmg).


Okay, another example comparing the benefits of -Damage for both a def and res based sets:

Character A - 25% def, 0% res
Character B - 0% def, 50% res

Attackers - 100 attacks for 200 damage

Scenario 1 - No damage debuffs
Character A: hit 25 times for 200 damage.
Total - 5000 damage

Character B: hit 50 times for 100 damage.
Total - 5000 damage

Scenario 2 - 25% damage debuff
Character A: hit 25 times for 150 damage.
Total - 3750 damage

Character B: hit 50 times for 75 damage.
Total - 3750 damage

So, on average, both sets will get the same benefit from the damage debuffs.

PvP is a whole different thing entirely. I automatically assume PvE unless specified otherwise.

(Side note: I find it odd that there is no suppression listing for SS in PvP... you'd probably want it on so you could move at max speed instantly, but still.)