Samuel_Tow
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Posts
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Joined
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Quote:I've only done one real Hamidon raid, back against the old-style Hamidon, and I spent almost the entire time either sitting on my hands or auto-follow on someone attacking things I couldn't see. Not fun.Originally Posted by Amygdala
Question for you, Samuel. Have you done a CoP before? A Hami raid? I see both of these tasks as requiring the communication and co-ordination that you describe. In fact, the first part of the CoP is remarkably similar to the Abandoned Sewer Trial, IMO. Instead of sending players to generators, you're sending teams to obelisks at different locations and clearing mobs. Then there's that "OK attack now!" factor involved.
I've "kind of" done the newer style raid, as presented in the Lady Grey TF, and the hallmark of that is I still spend most of my time sitting on my hands because the remaining mitos aren't killable by my AT. -
Quote:That's kind of where I started out, myself. I made me an AR/Dev Blaster, and it was so-so at first. But then I leafed through my old paper manual and I saw some really cool powers, like Full Auto, Auto Turret, Time Bomb and I thought "Sweet! This guy will be really cool when he gets there!" I made said Blaster in 2004. He made it past 34 in 2007.Originally Posted by Energizing_Ion
I played to look at/play with the powersets/powers which means I was playing to "get to the next level."
Characters are fun, yes, but they're more fun with more powers, more abilities and a more epic story behind them. -
Thanks!
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Quote:I agree with this, in the sense that wanting rewards for the sake of having rewards for no actual eventual reason (see the "raid for gear, get gear to raid" loop) is possibly missing the point of the game, which when you get down to it is about good guys punching bad guys in the face and getting kicked through walls. Over-focusing on rewards at the expense of concept, setting and gameplay is damaging to the long-term future of one's gaming experience.Originally Posted by Amygdala
In my personal opinion, this type of thinking is flawed because it bases your performance as a character on what IOs you have. Many others have acknowledged that it's not just your IOs, but your build, and furthermore not just your build, but how you actually play your toon. I've seen posts where people have insanely expensive builds that will do nothing for them according to what their stated goals are for the character. I've also seen players with solid builds that other players made for them, but still don't have a basic idea of what their powers do.
On the flip side, trying to quit rewards with the same mentality that one might try to quit drinking is even more damaging to gaming as a whole, because most games really come down to challenges to overcome and the progress those bring. Especially RPGs are designed to mimic the adventure and growth of a character or a party. It starts our hero as the everyman underdog, and progressively depicts him getting better, stronger, more skilled, more talented and generally more awesome, compressing years of a character's life and adventures into mere hours, giving us a hero's journey from a fledgling child into a veteran heroic figure.
As such, that sense of progress, be it expressed through the acquisition of gold, experience, drops or badges for specific milestone events is central to the purpose of said games. To take one level of the hero's career and endlessly repeat that is akin to watching only a single episode of a long-running show over and over again. It might be a fun episode, but it lacks the feeling of growth and maturity that the entirety of a whole series offers.
Trying to make people quit rewards is futile, not only because it ain't gonna' happen, but also because we don't WANT it to happen. Yes, games are fun when left to idle, but allowing a player to enjoy himself AND letting him progress at the same time is the mark of a good game. It's only terrible when a game is so-designed that players want to do one thing, but are forced to do another in order to progress, turning things into a cost-to-benefit mentality where it really shouldn't be one. People want to play around with the good stuff, but people also want to play around per se. Letting them play around AND eventually get the good stuff while doing so is the video gaming equivalent of eating your cake and having it, too. And isn't that what we play games for?
In my personal case, "what I want to do" is run regular-content missions which let my character show off and thereby boost my enormous ego. However, Incarnate Boosts give my character more power, thereby also boosting my ego. I want them because of it, but the only real way to get them as of right now is to play very hard, very demoralising TFs that I really don't want to. I'd LIKE to do what I want to do AND gain Incarnate status at a non-glacial pace, but I can't, so my recourse is to do something I don't want to do for the sole reason of earning rewards. And as long as I'm forced to do something I don't want to do, HELL YEAH I'll want to get the best mileage out of it, just to make it worth the "effort." -
Quote:That's pretty much what we did. Even though, when it comes to the Sewers Trial, I'm EXTREMELY paranoid about running out of time, I figured it was better if we were all on the same page, in the same location and thinking the same thing, even if it took a few minutes here and there to explain, and if necessary repeat things. What actually really bothers me is people who, when you try to explain how something goes, reply with "I know! Do you think I'm stupid?" Damned if you do, damned if you don't, as it were, even if I feel that people who already know should just keep their mouth shut and let other people hear it anyway.Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
I also find that a lot of people just tend to assume everyone knows what they're supposed to do. Is it that hard to ask if everyone has done this before? By the same token, is it that hard to pipe up and say "I've never done this before so I have no idea what I'm supposed to do" before starting? And if someone does say this, is it so hard to explain to them what they're supposed to do? Even on the sewer trial, which has a timer, you can take a minute to pause and coordinate. It saves time in the end.
The other serious problem is that, as you say, a lot of people assume you not only know how a task "should" be done, but you also know exactly which of the numerous recognised approaches that particular team is using. Every ITF I have to ask if we're going up the cliff or taking the road, if we're fighting the ambushes or rushing Sister Solaris to the altar, if we're killing each Cyst one by one or damaging them and killing them at the same time, if we're pulling things before the bridge or fighting on the hill, if we're killing the robots first or the computer first, if we're fighting Romulus head on or pulling the Nictus away... And half the time I have to ask three times before I get an answer, which is only actually informative about half the time.
Communication is vital, and since our game really isn't equipped with a "quick command" system like some others, it means people have to take the time to speak, explain and listen. This cannot be taken as an unusual achievement. -
Quote:Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
See also : "Custom" Power Animations
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I'm not going to make the same mistake as last time. I'll worry about what's in the booster and what I can make with it if and when it comes out. I'll reserve my right to get excited about future boosters if and only if a current one has impressed me greatly.
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Quote:What could you possibly have put there that would complete this phrase, get censored and yet comprise of four letters? Sorry, sorry, I just have to know!Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
pain in the ****
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Quote:Once upon a time when Trials actually existed, perhaps. Then again, back then Trials were just a single very tough missions without any special teaming modes. These days, there's no such thing as a "Trial." They're all Task Forces by different names. You can argue that there's a difference in design, but even that's not always the case. One of the Villain Respec Trials is three missions long, whereas the the ITF is four missions long, and I think the Reichsman TF may actually itself be three missions, as well.Originally Posted by Arilou
The original intent was for TF's to be more "standard" challenges wiht more/tougher enmies, while Trials required more specialized tactics, no?
That depends on what you mean by "that kind of challenge." If you're referring to the Sewers Trial, then Zamuel and I did it on a pick-up team of people I'd never met before in my life with only the communication that the Team channel permits, and we did it without even all that much of a prologue lecture. People don't really need to chat all that much, they just need to be willing to read. All it takes is a leader who types fast and that's good enough.Quote:Personally I don't mind that kind of challenge, but in order to be fun they pretty much require you at least be on vent or some other voice-chat. These challenges tends to be become restricted to people you know. It's just not fun trying to PUG. -
Quote:This question is always loaded and has always been loaded. We play games to have fun, and a large part of that fun is progress. When you play Super Mario, you don't do so to jump in place, you do so to get to the end of the level and be told your princess is in another castle. When you play Need for Speed, you don't do so to take a casual cruise down the race track, you play it to race and win. When you play Prince of Persia, you don't play it to hop in place and swing your sword at empty air, you do it to clear obstacles, kill monsters AND PROGRESS.Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
What happened to the fun? Why do people feel the need to be rewarded for entertaining themselves? You don't expect a reward from watching TV or a movie. You don't expect a reward for playing catch with your son (or dad, as the case may be). You don't epect a reward for going bowling, or hanging out with your friends. In all of those activities you do to entertain yourself, the fun you have while doing it IS the reward.
What, then, am I supposed to have fun doing in-game? Honest question here. Roleplaying? Just flying around the city? Chatting with friends? Making costumes? None of those technically require a game complete with a combat system to achieve. The only part of the game which requires the full package is combat, so are you suggesting I should just fight things and not worry about rewards? Because if that's the case, I pose the following question to you:
Why would I play a character I enjoy and can't progress on when I can play a character I enjoy and CAN progress on? Because I like the character so very much? I have plenty I enjoy so much, not all of whom are level 50.
I'll tell you what I enjoy about the gameplay in City of Heroes: I enjoy starting the game at a relatively moderate to low level of power, and I enjoy the journey during which I acquire new abilities, face new enemies, expand the character's concept and become stronger. I enjoy starting a game at the start and progressing until I reach the end. That, to me, is what a game constitutes. A "game" which lacks this is nothing more than a sandbox, and a sandbox is inherently boring and uninspired. As Yahtzee puts it, "Basted on the term 'game,' this assumes that gameplay limitations is what I wanted." I want gameplay which engages my attention and takes me through a journey, not an empty yard for me to fool around in, and that journey requires progress. And when that progress is so slow that I may as well never bother lest I die of old age before I make any headway, then that is a problem.
City of Heroes is a fun game, but were I locked at a single level with no ability to do anything but the same old stuff I've done dozens of times before, it would be fun for only a short while. Thus, progress of some fashion is required, and the Incarnate system - provided it has any meaningful content to it - offers just that.
Saying that people should just "enjoy the game" even though they can't make any progress is like saying you should enjoy bowling if all you ever do at the alley every time you go is sit in a five hour queue until it closes and you're told to come back the next day. Sure, it's fun to hang out with friends at the queue, but if you never got to actually bowl, then it was a day completely wasted.
"Rewards" in a video game are nothing more than a gameplay element. Chasing them, getting them, using them and moving on is part of the gameplay and part of the fun. You can't take them out of the game and into the real world, so to claim that people want to be "rewarded for having fun" is facetious at best and dishonest at worst. We don't want to be "rewarded." We want to play the damn game.
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And you know what the worst part about this whole thing is? I'm probably the least reward-driven person out there, and yet you're making me argue FOR reward-driven gameplay. -
Quote:Tech, I'd really appreciate it if you just stopped quoting her. The forums will ignore her posts, but not your quotes.Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Human Contact: Through electronic medium
Extrovert Nature!=Introvert Nature
Lines of thought: Noncompatible
Reaffirmation: Normal: Non-existent/Non-reasonable entity. -
That's good news all around. Giving me a shot at the WORST UNLOCK IN THE GAME is something I've been asking for for a very long time, and the way this is phrased, it makes it sound like Vanguard pieces will be in the editor at character creation.
I'm game! -
Quote:That just shows you how much it gets run if a bunch of old farts of us here can't figure out which way is upOriginally Posted by Diggis
They are also colour coded aren't they? Green and yellow crates.
To a point, yes, but you still need some degree of coordination and synchronisation, lest you go with a HELL OF A LOT OF PLANNING, the latter of which is usually more likely to fail. It's a complex Trial without much in the way of bull-rush content, so people still need to be on the ball to win it. A lot of people I've run ITFs with have approached from a "don't think, smash" angle, which works for the most part, at least there.Quote:I also feel that if people ran the AST as much as the ITF if would pretty quickly become as routine. -
Quote:I wish you at least kept the Thermite temp after the TF. The power is complete ***, but the gun is really coolOriginally Posted by Ms. Mesmer
Oh, and I took a Thermite, just to see if it was still as useless as ever, and it was.
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I seem to have missed this thread for the longest time.
I see this thread keeps going into and out of statistics, drop rates, expected values and so forth. Personally, as a player rather than a mathematician, there's only one thing I want to say on the subject:
The "soloability" of the end game, if one can even use that term, does not exist, because all end game activities I'm aware of are team-only. That in itself rings major alarm bells for me, and future content does not seem to alleviate any of my concerns. I firmly believe that in ALL content, be it early game, late game or end game, solo CONTENT should exist, at the very least as a counterpoint to group content. When it comes to the Incarnate system, this is currently not true, as the only content which is written to take place after one acquires Incarnate abilities is restricted to the Tin Mage TF and the Apex TF, both of which are team-only as Task Forces tend to be. Making those soloable is a fool's dream and isn't the point, but providing counterpoint solo, or at least soloABLE content to add to those is definitely something that should be on the agenda, yet doesn't look like it is.
When it comes to Shard drop rates, I'm not going to discuss numbers. Instead, I'm going to give my impressions as a casual (in terms of character power and gameplay "zeal") solo player and say that the drop rate is terrible. Not only is the drop rate terrible, but having Shards be drops is a bad idea in general, as it fosters the feeling that any content you play through that, due to random number generator malice, does not drop a shard is time completely and utterly wasted. Going a full day without seeing a shard is going a full day while having made ZERO progress and pretty much equal to going a full day sleeping in bed, or going out with friends, or working an actual paying job. One of the things City of Heroes used to pride itself on was the fact that you could log in for half an hour, kill some stuff and leave feeling like you accomplished something. Not much, mind you, not much at all, but SOMETHING nonetheless. Logging on for half an hour to look for shards will, unless you are particularly lucky, result in no progress at all.
I don't want to get into the maths and mechanics of it all, since I'm not qualified to make these decisions, but I will say this - when I run mission after mission after mission and get nothing at all, I'm demotivated to keep trying. When it takes me weeks to achieve even the basic Boost when I can go from 49 to 50 in a couple of days with the same playstyle, and then thinking ahead at how EXPONENTIALLY more costly future Boosts will be is very demotivating. Then turning around and realising that if I'd just gotten on a kill-all ITF, I'd have gotten right around 15 Shards in an hour and a half makes me REALLY demotivated, because... I want to run missions by myself. What's the point of playing if the only meaningful progress to speak of is found in content I don't like?
As far as I'm concerned, the gap between solo and team gains is far too great, at least concerning shards. I'm of the opinion that both a cap and a floor need to exist. A cap so as to let team events still have vastly better rewards without letting their rewards spiral out of control and a floor so that slower, weaker and above all MORE UNLUCKY players are never shafted going day sand days never even seeing a shard at all. I know it's not based on time but on kills, but even so - people are going to measure their gaming experience based on the time they spent playing, and if it feels like they're taking ages and getting no progress, they will give up.
As far as the rest of the game goes, I'd say content is soloable enough, if for no reason other than because content which can be soloed exists. It can't be soloed by everybody, granted, but I consider that a weakness of AT balance and a different story for a different day. Point is, if a person chooses and builds for solo play, then almost everything which isn't a TF is soloable, and there's enough of that to bring a person from level 1 to level 50 without forcing that person to re-grind the same content over and over again. On the grand scheme of things, I can't ask for more than that.
*edit*
Just for reference, I created (rather, recreated) a character around New Years, and she's level 40 right now. I checked with an M-name citizen, and I'm told she's been "on patrol" for 114 hours. Everyone on my global is constantly congratulating me on my swift progress, though I don't know how "fast" this is considered. But that's my "speed," more or less. -
Quote:As I said before, I find this comes down to jetpack design. Making the jet pack smaller and/or just short vertically solves the clipping issues without needing bending metal. The pack can still consist of large engines moved off to the side, as long as the actual back attachment doesn't extend below the rib cage. Articulated jet packs are a cool idea and should probably be worked on, but as a basic proof of concept, I'd be happy with a "Lara Croft backpack" size back attachment with wings, engines or thrusters mounted on struts off to the side or shifted back and away.Originally Posted by Katie V
As I recall, the problem is the lack of a good attachment point. If you attach the backpack to the shoulders (the same place as wings attach), the bottom lifts off the character's back during any forward-bend animation, and sticks into or through the pelvis during back-bend animations. If you attach it at the center of mass, you get the float/embed problems the jetpacks have. If you attach it at the pelvis (the same place as belts attach), you get the straps detaching from the shoulders during forward bends, and sticking into the back during backward bends. The correct solution is to attach the pack at all three points and flex/stretch with the character's motion, but it's very difficult to get that to look good, and I don't think the CoH animation system can deal with three-point attachment.
Now BACKPACKS are a different matter. Those would need to bend and fold. -
Quote:And what situation, pray tell, is a stun superior to a hold? What situation that's so prevalent or important that it justifies such crappy duration?Originally Posted by Lurker Hunter
No. If you don't like the power, don't use it. The versatility thing not coming into play is the fault of the user, mostly because people prefer teams that steamroll anything regardless of what ammo you're using. If that's your bag then that's fine, slap on Incendiary Rounds and never bother to think twice, but solo players and 2-4 man groups see a lot of benefit from utilizing different ammo types.
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Quote:Well... Not entirely. At least Praetorian content makes sense and is well-written in terms of story. I can take those plotlines outside the context of the game and I'd still love most of them, the Power arcs in particular. But Roy Cooling's "story" is just a paper thin excuse to just go kill stuff.Originally Posted by Dragonkat
Regarding the going rogue problems too. Would it be fair you think Sam to call Roy cooling everything we hate about praetoria in a single handy arc?
In fact, it reminds me of the first mission I ever did in Lineage II. The local blacksmith had me go out near the river and kill giant frogs to look for iron ore. Yes, seriously. It seemed that the caravan carrying his ore somehow tipped over into the river and giant frogs ate the ore for... Some reason.
It would be funny if it weren't so sad. -
Quote:Yeah, I remember you mentioning that in the All Things Art thread, though you never explained what the hurdle was. I appreciate the efforts and the communication, David. So long as we know this is being looked into, at least a fair portion of us can be patient about it.Originally Posted by Noble Savage
I've mentioned it before, but the Art Team's been looking into the possibility of backpacks. We definitely want to make some for you, but all I can say for now is "stay tuned..."
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Quote:I have a vampire-like creature, myself, one that I styled after Castelvania's Alucard, and I'm very happy with the result.Originally Posted by ketch
Really, I'm a Virtue player myself and I don't see that many vampires. Of those I have spotted even fewer allude to that particular franchise that must not be named. Of course, I tend to spend my time smashing bad guys in the face rather than roleplaying.
*edit*
Artegor -
Quote:You need to say things like this more often, Tech! I enjoy reading them so very muchOriginally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Which I still think is absolute bloody cobblers, but thats a whole other thread...
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Quote:To be honest, back in May of 2004 when I was first starting, I made myself a Kat/SR Scrapper and by about level 6 or level 8 or some such I was already taking out Bone Daddies by myself. If you believe even the original CoH manual that had come with my game box some three days before, I should have needed a team for that, and I really didn't.Originally Posted by MajorDecoy
Sure, but I don't think that you've just started playing a level 1 character. So while the advice might not work for someone who is experienced and is playing a level 50, I think it holds pretty well for most characters in the 1-10 range (possibly up to 22). The guide is for people who haven't played much.
Take a look at your suggested revisions and see if that information holds at level 2.
Way back in the day, the game was conceived of as a VERY traditional tank-n-spank MMO with forced teaming, the "holy trinity," plenty of hunt missions and the belief that people would just "go out of town" and hunt in the hazard zones. A lot of those preconceptions no longer exist, because right out the gate we proved to be both stronger and smarter than the game assumed we were. -
Quote:No, and after that HORRID Tin Mage run I had a while ago, I swore off end-game TFs. However, considering how many people always recommend that over Tin Mage, I'll probably have to give it a shot if and when I find one forming. If it's that lauded, it ought to at least not be boringOriginally Posted by Rikis
I have a question Sam, have you tried the Apex TF? I may not share your views on Tin Mage, but I do find it incredibly boring. The Apex on the other hand, I find to be a lot of fun. If you have people who have never done it before and you don't communicate beforehand what to expect during the Battle Maiden fight, you'll find that the new people will die, a lot.
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Also, the +4 enemies may not have actually been +4. I could be wrong. I saw a lot of purple enemies, so I sort of assumed, but I may have been wrong on what level we were auto-locked at. -
Quote:To be honest, the reason I call it a "better" challenge isn't so much because it's somehow morally superior, but rather because I hate stat-based "challenges." When it comes to something like Reichsman or the Recluse SF, it really comes down to bringing the right characters with the right builds and possibly formulating the required drill of how things are supposed to go. To, this doesn't so much constitute challenge as much as the computer is a cheating meanie. It feels like a cheap challenge that players are more or less forced to cheat in order to overcome.Originally Posted by Jophiel
I guess I just don't see it as a "better" challenge. It's not especially "worse" either, but it reminds me of old school Complete Heal chains from Everquest or something. Cast your CHeal, sound off, next cleric waits the prerequisite time, fires his, sounds off, etc. Druid waits for the cleric sounds offs and fires a patch heal. Main tank calls off aggro, secondary tank maintains aggro just under the main tank. Main assist calls targets, melees make sure to stay behind the target, etc etc. You can have some idiot players in there but as long as the principles are sharp and know their jobs and communicate, it should all go okay. Tick-tock-tick-tock.
All very clockwork and a "challenge" in its own way but it doesn't feel like an especially heroic challenge. It's more just finding out the trick to work the system. Once you've cracked it, the only challenge lies in finding people with a functioning brain to go through the motions. But that's always going to be the issue with MMORPGs.
What I like about the Sewer Trial is that you really can't plan it like clockwork, for the simple fact that glowies move around and things don't always go smoothly. At the very least, you can't always predict if you'll get a worthless Thermite cannon or a very useful Particle Cannon. On my run with Zamuel, someone accidentally killed a generator before we were ready, so him and I had to essentially bring the team back to the generator FAST, handle the Rikti who beamed in, leave the generator standing and then move on. It's not the "regular as clockwork," to quote Hans Gruber, part that really interests me, as much as the need to react to circumstances as they happen in real time.
Personally, I hate challenges that can be rehearsed and blitzed through. I prefer the ones that make people think on their feet. Valve's AI director is a VERY good step in the right direction, as it ensures that no level ever plays out the same twice in a row, and it forces people to both explore their environment and think on their feet. It's this process of decision-making in real time, and team-scale decision-making at that, that is the most interesting to me. Just basic run-of-the-mill combat is fun, sure. When I'm by myself and grinding through a mission. But when I get together with a team and I approach a challenge that's supposed to be so damn great, I want it to be creative and interesting, not cheap and cheating. -
Quote:Personally, I think ParagonWiki and the online Guide to Guides that Zombie Man made are the way to go. The game evolves too fast for a printed manual to ever hope to stay current, but an online resource which can be updated as changes take place can stay perpetually current, especially if updated officially. The developers already seem to endorse ParagonWiki by putting it in the loading tips, after all.Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Agreed. I would love to see them do a detailed up to date free online game guide along the lines of the old Prima Game Strategy Guide. The manuals contain just the bare bones minimum information.