Rooftop_Raider

I do want to make clear that I think the boss changes are too much, too. But I can't decide how much that is, really. I enjoy the challenge, but the disparity between LT's and bosses is noticable.

Maybe leave the damage changes in but lower the HP to normal. Something. I don't mind them being somewhat tougher. But it just takes dramatically longer to take one out than LT's, and that's what I have an issue with.

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, isn't the point of the game to be a SUPERHero? Not just a hero? That logic works both ways.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, and even Batman, a hero with no super powers, is still a superhero. Because he's not a quitter. Nor is he a whiner.

[ QUOTE ]
And just because someone enjoys just being able to jump on and solo on occasion makes him antisocial?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope by his comments Snow Lionne said the following:

"I DO NOT team well, I play games so I don't have to be social. If I wanted to chat with people, I would go hang out with friends. A lot of teams ask me why I don't chat, what's wrong with me that I don't type "LOL" everytime one of them says something remotely humourous. I don't want to team, I don't care for the changes in the bosses as it makes it next to impossible for me to solo, with ANY of my chars "

I'm not being mean by saying he's antisocial. Batman is a classic antisocial hero. There's nothing wrong with that. I sure as hell wasn't being flippant with him as you are with me. I even admitted that I too am antisocial sometimes and that from time to time we are all like that. (practically speaking)

[ QUOTE ]
Or just a casual player that wants to just jump in on occasion, or they are RPing or playing a theme character that is the "Lone Wolf"?

[/ QUOTE ]

I took his words by the context he used them. He wasn't speaking as one of his characters, to my knowledge, so yes I assume he is speaking about himself. I am not calling him a loser, mean, etc. I am just saying that someone that ADMITS he doesn't want to be social, doesn't want to chat much, doesn't want to team, etc. I take him at his word, and I take him seriously, which is more than I can say about you.

[ QUOTE ]
I know and agree that AVs and Elite Bosses are supposed to be tough enough to require grouping, it's within the whole Superhero genre where there are epic badguys that need at least a handful of superheroes to defeat, but we are talking about just the common, garden variety, generic bosses that in the comics the superheroes should be able to take solo with a moderate effort. Named bosses, maybe Elite Bosses, should be the toe-to-toe, knock down dragem' out fights.

[/ QUOTE ]

And you know, I think the bosses are a little too hard, compared to the LT's and minions. If you use the baseline, right now a LT equals about 1 minion but a boss equals about 8 minions. I think that's just a little too steep a curve for me.

You can either a) recognize that I am offering constructive and valid opinions, and either agree or disagree with me, or you can keep making flippant comments that I never asked for or provoked. It's your choice. But my purpose on these threads is not to play tit for tat forever with you or anyone else over irrelevant comments.

[ QUOTE ]
Uhm, ok... Sure... I'm sure that makes sense in your little world somewhere.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sticks and stones.

[ QUOTE ]
If you say so. Sorry, I guess I just don't subscribe to your narrow little vision of things (thank god).

[/ QUOTE ]

No you have your own narrow view where you believe anyone who disagrees with you has malicious intent. Hence your jab at me that I should be a Dev because I say people who adapt will be more successful than those who don't.

[ QUOTE ]
I find it completely amazing that if you have any complaint that another person doesn't agree with your instantly a whiner.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, because rather than have intelligent discussion about it, you complain incessantly about it. That's whining.

Unless you disagree with me that people who adapt will die less often than those who don't, you have nothing constructive to say to me. So not only does that make you a whiner, it makes you a flamer.

[ QUOTE ]
If you'd like to consider me a quitter be my guest, but usually if I find something that is heavily biased against me I don't see the need to keep "beating my head against the wall" so to speak.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're the one that gave up, not me. You're the one that said the following:

"Now my blaster can just avoid his missions altogether so he won't get beat down by generic bosses!"

Yeah, go ahead and quit missions altogether, like you said you would, and tell me you're not a quitter. That's as honest as anything else you've claimed so far.

While I understand your complaint, your situation is in large part your own doing. Being antisocial is more of an impediment now than before Issue 2. I solo when I am not in groups, because it gets boring sitting around and doing nothing, and like you because often I want to do missions on my own. Similar to Batman. I don't think it's bad to want to "go it alone" because that is QUITE a common theme in comics.

But so is teaming up when you fight villains too big for you to handle on your own. Hence teamups, comic crossovers, even super hero leagues.

Just keep in mind that being a hero and being super are 2 different things. You didn't play this game just to be super, right?

Be a hero. Don't give up.

[ QUOTE ]
Hey, with that thinking, you could be a Cryptic dev! Apply now!

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey with that pessimism you could be walking the streets with a sign saying "The End is Near!"

[ QUOTE ]
Your right, we can adapt... Now my blaster can just avoid his missions altogether so he won't get beat down by generic bosses! YAY, how fun! Thank you for that nugget of wisdom...

[/ QUOTE ]

You're blaster is no hero. He's a quitter. Remind me not to activate the WhinerSignal for you.

The only way deaths would occur significantly more often is if people refused to adapt to changes. It's sort of a self-punishment in that case.

If anyone can't figure out they need to be more careful than before about bosses they either have a minmaxed solo-friendly build, or have always had problems with bosses. For the rest of us, we're pretty smart and can adapt.

[ QUOTE ]
Players don't have a problem with AVs being unsoloable. I think soloists have a problem with getting so many missions from their personal contacts that require defeating AVs as part of the mission requirements. Players have a problem with unsoloable missions. It doesn't mean that AVs should be soloable. It means they shouldn't be part of the mission requirement if in the mission at all.

Players want the ability to solo all missions from personal contacts. Not all AVs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes some players want every single mission to always be soloable. Not everyone feels this way. You don't even have alot of missions with AV's until you reach the 40's anyways. Unless you're completely anti-social you might have a SG or some friends by then, and even then you still have a search tool and broadcast/request channels.

I'm lvl 41 and to date I've only fought a handful of AV's in missions. The 1-40 game is what applies to the majority of gamers. Those of us that have reached or surpassed 40 are a minority. Most people don't even have this problem, as the only AV they've probably fought in their own missions is probably Dr. Vahz. The Envoy of Shadows is the first AV I fought and that was at lvl 38. I picked up some heroes the first time I fought him then retained those heroes and beat him 2 more times in the story arc without a problem.

The thing I don't get is, and I may just be tired here and missing something, but you're having difficulties soloing AV's and that's the problem?

It just seems to me that really nobody is supposed to be able to solo them, but some min/maxers have been able to do it, and spread the word on how to do it, and particularly scrappers have been successful with it, and the rare controller, so now a lot of people just expect to be able to do it.

I just think if you're that frustrated for having to now fight AV's in some missions in your 40's, that you should just get teams together and beat them, and not worry about it.

My main is a sliver from 42 and so far I've had no problems, on the least populated server (Protector) getting people quickly to help me dispose of them.

I'm a blaster. I don't expect to be able to solo AV's.

I think you mean 3 blasters and 3 defenders.

***

Long story ahead

Okay I started organizing a team yesterday morning. I already had a commitment from a blaster the night before, so I just had to get 6 more people to commit to it. Took the better part of 5 hours to recruit a team, and a couple people couln't make it. The one tanker we had switched to her empathy defender and exempared down, leaving us without a tanker. Ultimately we ended up with the following:
3 Regen Scrappers
2 Blasters
2 Controllers (1 fire/force, 1 illusion/kinetics)
1 Empathy Defender

3 Regen scrappers were sufficient to tank everything the trial could throw at us. Having them bubbled helped, too.
The combination of Bubbler + Healer + Buffer was a boon. We never ran out of endurance, always fought at our damage caps, and always had sufficient healing, with one glaring exception due to a miscalculation on our part. You'll see.

The kill 200 DE task at the beginning is nothing special. At lvl 41 or so, the droves of DE that litter the area around the Woodsman are a surefire way of completing this promptly - so get everyone hunting.

After you speak with the spirit of the Woodsman you notice IMMEDIATELY a LARGE mountain door next to him opens up. Go in.

Once you're in, you notice a cavern that dwarfs anything you've probably been in before. There are a bunch of holes you can drop down. As noted above, the 1 o clock position is the best one to go through. It's almost to the very back of that first cavern. You drop down a couple times then end up in the first Wall Chamber. There's a couple Quarry monsters standing around, so defeat them before you search for the First Wall.

Once you get to the Wall #1 you need to be prepared for roughly 80 Boulder minions to come out of the ground once you attack the wall. We got the wall to halfway before the Cairns generate enough to become an issue, and the wall ended up regenerating back to full health, as we fought for 5 minutes. We went to town on the Cairns, destroyed all the Boulders, and were exactly where we were when we started. A wall 100% of health.

So we began anew, and we focused on Cairns and Boulders more and one of the scrappers and blasters focused on the wall while the rest of us fought everything else. The wall fell. Took 10 minutes for this exchange.

We destroyed everything in the area around the bridges, and picked up about 18 Ambrosia inspirations. When we were done we noticed nothing else spawned, so we shuffled around inspirations till the blasters/defender/controllers had 2 of the, with the regen scrappers with 3-4 each.

When we got to the Second Wall I told everyone to take a discipline or two. I took two. That took about 5 minutes to fall, maybe less. We didn't have a problem with the Fungoids, and to be honest, I didn't notice many spawned. Some Greater Devoured Spawned too. I don't know if these would also have dropped Ambrosia as my inspiration slots were full at the time.

When you come to the final chamber, take note that as you drop to the Crystal Titan's chamber, there is a small room above that drop point where you came from. As a flier, you can fly back up and that place is a safe haven. In our case, that became a neccessity because of a fatal miscalculation on our part. Someone with fly and TP can be a mission-saver should things go wrong against the Crystal Titan.

The Heroes that you must save are on the OTHER Side of the whole thing. Past the Crystal Titan. I recommend everyone make their way to those heroes, clear out the hordes around them, and make that a place to fight from. We cleared that just fine, freed the heroes, and decided to clear a path to the Crystal Titan.

We did so, but made a fundamental mistake by doing that. We engaged the Crystal Titan, and within a minute the WHOLE ROOM around us, roughly 400 Crystal warriors, all came to help out their gargantuan master. We had a near-total wipeout right there. So the lesson to be learned here is: CLEAR THE ENTIRE MOAT around the Crystal Titan. It's arguable that you don't have to clear the area around the drop point, but anything remotely nearby the Crystal Titan will come to aid him.

It tooks us a few rezzes, a few more deaths, and a few more rezzes from a safe location (the area above the drop point I noted above) for us to effectively regroup. And the WHOLE ROOM was aggroed on us. It didn't matter WHERE we went, they were still coming after us.

It's here that we realized a second successful tactic (The safe haven being the first). The hill you land on when you first come in the room, is a great Last Man Standing location. I was King of the Hill for 10 minutes straight as roughly 300 of the remaining crystal minions came up that hill, IN SINGLE FILE, as I chain blasted them. This is where having unlimited endurance was a plus. Hordes of them kept coming up that hill, and we kept knocking them off and blowing them away. This is where having an energy blaster shines because it helped prevent us from becoming overwhelmed on that spot.

Once we totally cleared the whole chamber, we took on the Crystal Titan again. I never noticed that he summoned anything. But on his demise he exploded into 4 Crystal Bosses that we took out.

At level 41 I made about 100K between the destruction of the Crystal Titan and Mission Complete XP alone. I cleared a couple bars, even with some debt, doing the whole thing.

One last thing before I go. It seems to me that having a high defense DOES help you against his attacks. I was bubbled, and I swallowed a few lucks, and he missed me twice in a row! I had no Ambrosia so a single nick from this guy would have obliterated me.

We completed the trial in under 2.5 hours, too.

[ QUOTE ]
How do you define success?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not ending in failure. The important question to you is, how do YOU define success?

You're the one making the claim you've never been in a successful pickup group ever. EVER! Unless you're playing around with the meaning of "success" that's not good.

Pickup groups are bad. Because in your experience they are never ever successful when you've been in them. Then you turn around and say well we completed missions so in that sense they were successful but I wasn't having as much fun, and so forth. You're playing around with semantics Fraktal.


[ QUOTE ]
Note in my example, we beat nemesis and the villains. We got "mission completed". The mission could thus be considered "successful." I never said I was on groups that FAILED missions. I said the missions were "disasters." The first time I said this, I admit I did not explain, but I then did subsequently, as I patiently explained the "disaster" was not in failing but in not having fun as I went along. To me, gain of XP + beating up villains + mission complete is NOT SUFFICIENT for fun. I need to have people I enjoy chatting with, socializing with, and (gasp) RPing with, as I go along. I do not care about the levelling/mission-running grind. I enjoy being with friends and that is why I prefer to play WITH FRIENDS.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again this is your fault you aren't having fun, not your teammates, or Cryptics. You need to take personal responsibility for your own emotional state.

What characters are you having a hard time fighting bosses on Test btw? In your sig you have 2 characters that are even lvl 25+ and one is a SR scrapper. If you're doing a solo mission, I can't imagine how often you come up against a boss or 2 that would even give you trouble.

And btw this example is clearly on Live. Unless you managed to get a pickup group on Test to help you with that AV. Which is highly unlikely in my experience.


[ QUOTE ]
The odds ain't so bad considering I only tried pickup groups 4-5 times and then gave up because those 4 or 5 were not pleasurable.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you don't even have a good sample of experience to draw upon - I get it. You've got a lvl 42 and 28 hero but you've only joined 4-5 pickup groups ever. And by your own admission you've successfully completed missions with them. But not a single one of those was successful because you somehow had no fun.

That seems like such an extreme case. Who else has spent, what 600+ hours in the game, like you apparently have (not bad at all really, shows you have considerable experience) and have only ever joined pickup groups 4-5 times ever, but not once had any fun with them?


[ QUOTE ]
I readily admit I didn't spend hours and hours trying to do pickup groups. Why the hell should I?

[/ QUOTE ]

I never said it was a requirement. I just note that you're complaining about an aspect of the game that's happened so rarely with you. You've only joined/formed pickup groups 4-5 times, yet been able to complete missions because of it, but haven't had fun. I DO however think that for you to be a successful advocate for or against pickup groups, you should have at least have some considerable experience doing it. You've had successful missions with groups, but because you of all people don't have fun doing them, pickup groups as a whole are bad? Don't you see the flaw in that line of reasoning?

Lets also keep in mind what you've said in the past Fraktal. That "the main problem is that COH doesn't encourage grouping... it encourages grouping with random people." I just don't see how that's possible. That CoH somehow encourages one form of grouping over, like other Random versus Planned. Clearly you've been far more successful grouping with friends and SG mates (though how you ever grouped with them in the first place, and had either success or fun, is another story) than with total strangers.

But having played EQ and DAOC and now CoH I don't see how CoH is somehow different from any other MMORPG with regards to ease of grouping. Particularly one form of grouping over another. I'd go as far as to say it's easier to group in CoH now than I've ever had it in the 2 other MMO's I've tried.


[ QUOTE ]
Almost any time of day except early morning when I get on, my SG-mates are on. I know I will have fun with them. Why should I take the 80% chance (Amberyl's guess) that a pickup group will be mediocre to poor when I know I will have an awesome time with existing friends?

[/ QUOTE ]

Amberyl's guess is also insane. 80% of pickup groups will be mediocre to poor? You and him/her just have horrible, horrible luck. In Atlas or Perez Park or the Hollows. My success rate with pickup groups is easily better than 80%. That's not even chest-beating. My example isn't unusual. I just can't fathom having that bad a time as what you and him/her are describing. Of course, you're description of success is fun, and you somehow can't have fun with new people in pickup groups, no matter how easily you get through missions.


[ QUOTE ]
If you accept even a 50-50 chance of a bad group in a pickup situation, then my experience is the equivalent of getting 4 heads in a row in a coin toss. You don't assume an unfair coin in 4 flips that happen to come up the same. Maybe it was bad luck, and the probability is 50-50... (Amberyl by the way would not agree with you). So what? I have two choices: 100% chance of NOT having a lousy time either solo or with existing friends, or 50% chance of not having a lousy time with strangers. I play the odds. By limiting my choice to (1) group with existing friends or (2) solo if no friends are online, I guarantee my play-time never, ever sucks. Doing pickup groups, I can't guarantee it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well you're just such an extreme case in so many ways then. I am sure there is a fringe you are a champion of, the "anti-pickup group" crowd, but for the vast majority of people, I doubt that's the case.

You only want a guarantee of fun. A 100% guarantee of fun, or else. That's a standard you have, but that is clearly an extreme case. You craft a standard for yourself that is probably foreign to most players in the game. The good news is that the rest of the people on the server don't have to be held to such a standard because they'll never EVER EVER group with you.


[ QUOTE ]
Maybe you don't want a guarantee of fun every time you log in. I do. So I take action to ensure it. That's my choice, and you are in no position to second-guess it, any more than I would second-guess yours to play in pickup groups.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I'm not second-guessing you. I just take you at your word that you never have any success in pickup groups. Then you say well success is only measured by fun, not the fact the group is completing missions successfully. You admit you weren't clear but chastise me for taking your words out of context. Ok.

No, I don't expect a 100% guarantee of fun every time I log in. But I also take an active role in the groups I form. I create more groups than I join, but I join groups to. Unlike you, I am a proponent of all types of grouping. Not just one single type: friend/SG grouping. While I too also group with friends and SG mates more often than pickup groups. I have joined COUNTLESS pickup groups. Not a handful, and I've had a large, VERY LARGE, margin of success because of it.


[ QUOTE ]
Um. Again READ MY POST. My SG was started by me and 2 existing real-life friends. Nobody recruited me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Um. Read MY post. My statement was to whether or not I "know how a SG would even know you're a good player in order to recruit you."

To which, oddly enough you replied:

[ QUOTE ]
And you're right, no one would know to recruit me otherwise.

[/ QUOTE ]

So I'm right. Thank you. That is all.


[ QUOTE ]
So why, given that I have that, would I ditch it and go play pickup COH?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's up to you whether or not you group with others. I just find your examples of "success" dubious and disagree with your notion that pickup groups are bad because of your unique and extreme PoV on them. You even admit you've successfully completed missions, etc, but that's not good enough for you. You also admit that no other SG would probably know to recruit you. You won't even play the game unless there is 100% certainty of "success" by your standard.


[ QUOTE ]
No, again READ WHAT I POSTED. I told you I grouped with existing friends. The two guys I group with and I played NWN together for 1.5 years. Then we played SWG for almost 9 months. Then they shifted to COH, and I came along with them. Other people in our group are almost entirely RL friends of one of the three of us. I don't need pickup groups to get into a group. So why would I bother with a random group?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because as you have admitted, your friends aren't on all the time with you. Or else you wouldn't have needed to join those 4-5 pickup groups and have total failure with them even though you completed missions successfully, etc.

Even you would have to admit your PoV is extreme here, right?


[ QUOTE ]
My point was, I *have* a group of very good friends, and it annoys not just me but the whole entire team, that certain things like the respec trial are just not friendly to friend-groups, that our friends list is too small and uninformative, that it is harder than it should be to keep tabs on each other.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I've done the respec trial 40+ times now (Sky Raiders) and while I've failed probably a dozen times, mostly early on, I've had fun on practically all of them. I know a couple ended in disaster and I didn't have fun. But that's the exception not the rule. And I'm made a lot of new friends this way that you just can't being solo and grouping only with friends.

I do agree with you we need a larger friend list. But I parse everything that's not in my SG and those who've been playing any time recently. I'll wager money I have tons more friends than you in game. Easily. Because of pickup groups. And still I've done fine with the current friend list as others move on, remove alts, stop being in contact with me, and so forth. Sure, increase the friend list and SG list. No disagreement there.


[ QUOTE ]
That, in a sense, the game is much friendlier to pickup groups than SGs. That was my point. You've managed to latch onto one thing -- my lack of succes 4 or 5 times in a row with pickup groups -- and totally missed every point I made.

[/ QUOTE ]

No I just find it very extreme, your case. Believe it or not I agree with your reasoning to group with friends and SG mates more than pickup groups. I just disagree with the notion that pickup groups are bad as a rule. And totally bemused by your 100% failure rating for pickup groups based on 4-5 pickup groups in your entire history of playing the game, despite their obvious success in completing missions, etc.

One question, were the people who grouped with you having fun? Or were they having as little success with you having fun? Did they enjoy grouping with you at all? Helping you with your mission?


[ QUOTE ]
Let me be clear one final time. I went 0 for 5 (or maybe 4, I didn't track it) in pickup missions during the spring and summer when my SG-mates weren't on and after that I gave up. Note that the "0 for" is 0 fun in 5 attempts, NOT 0 mission successes. We succeeded in every mission. Try to understand that mission success is NOT how I determine having fun.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're totally clear. Just it seems to me it's more a problem on your end than a problem with those in the pickup groups with you.


[ QUOTE ]
Did you actually read the posts in this thread? We are discussing standard, mission-ending, orange-con bosses having been boosted so much on the training server that nobody without an uber-build can solo them now.

[/ QUOTE ]

I read the whole thing. The fact I took exception at some of your comments should be a clue that some of your comments are just really weird. You admit I'm right in some of them, too.

Only my fire tanker is a solo-opitmized build. My glass-cannon blasters are more group-oriented. And my Scrapper is SR, which I'm sure you can attest to in the lower levels, is not an uber solo set. In fact I only have 2 defense powers, FF and FS, with Hasten and CJ providing barely passable extra defense. Yet I'm just as successful on Test as I am on Live with Donnybrook.

YOU have an SR scrapper - and I am surprised you aren't having the same sort of success I am. And no doubt you have a better build than I do.

I do agree with you that the fringe builds. Those that barely solo well on Live, will have problems with the bosses on Test. But inspirations or teammates will help. And really if this game doesn't get more challenging for us at the higher levels, that's not going to bode well in the months to come.

Bottom line: If you make a less than optimal soloing character, and you intend to solo 100% of the time, you are going to have problems, even on Live. You can't sit here and complain about the solo-centric AT's and builds which will still be successful. You can't complain about the solo-adverse AT's and builds which solo poorly anyways, and now solo more poorly against bosses that are lvl 25+. By then you should have worked out whether or not you're character is a competent soloer, and regardless, everyone should need help with AV's and Monsters.


[ QUOTE ]
These bosses occur in almost every mission starting with Marrowsnap at level 11. An orange-con boss, a single one, is your level (he cons orange because he is a boss).

[/ QUOTE ]

Well this is a change that is lvl 25+ not lvl 11+. And yes the game will be similar below lvl 25 as it is to Live.


[ QUOTE ]
So what we are saying is that if they make it so that most non-uber players can't solo even-level, orange-con bosses, that'll hose not 5% of missions for soloists but probably 80% of missions. And since you can only have 3 missions at a time, and there is no way to tell whether you're going to accept a mission with an orange-con boss in it, you could conceivably, and rather easily, find yourself with 3 missions you HAVE to team to win at, during a period when you just are not in the mood to be sociable. Why is it so hard for people to understand that this kind of circumstance (a) will become extremely common if the boss buffs go in as they are and (b) is not desirable in a game?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well first of all you're jumping to the conclusion that all missions lvl 25+ with bosses will be impossible to solo. That's a rather hasty conclusion, don't you think? Sure the game will be harder for fringe soloists, but really, how much more difficult are we talking about? I've seen nothing but dubious conjecture on your part, as someone that doesn't even play a fringe soloer. For my less than optimal builds I solo just fine. The only experience I don't have at higher levels, soloing, is with a defender. I've played the other 4 AT's lvl 25+ and the game is still playable, including bosses. And somehow I don't think a smart defender is going to have a problem soloing a boss or 2.

The game is modestly more challenging at lvl 25+ and apparently for the fringe soloers. That's my take so far, with the characters I have tested.

[ QUOTE ]
Clearly you are not reading what I said. I judge success as follows:

success = fun = success

[/ QUOTE ]

No I read what you said, I just don't understand how you can't have fun in an otherwise successful group. I notice to date you STILL haven't answered that question.

Am I going to get an answer Fraktal?


[ QUOTE ]
In other words, if I die 10 times and fail the mission but had a lot of fun doing it (as is generally true with my SG mates even when we all die in things like the respec trial), then I'm good. If I "complete" the mission but had no fun at all, then I consider it "not worth it."

[/ QUOTE ]

We know how you define "success." That is "fun." How do you define "fun" then? You seem to constantly avoid answering that question. How about a real stab. Not another explanation as to success = fun. What is success/fun to you? Since clearly it's not completing a mission objective, getting XP, grouping with anyone else other than RL friends, etc.


[ QUOTE ]
My pickup missions haven't been failures of doing missions, they've been failures of having fun. They've been me teamed up with 3-5 nice people and 1-2 absolute idiots who ruin the entire experience for me and make me want to log out. That happened to me 4 or 5 times in a few weeks in May-June and I gave up on pickup groups. And since I don't NEED pickup groups because I have an SG, they were the easiest thing in the world to give up. Are we, finally, clear here? Yeesh.

[/ QUOTE ]

No you've always been clear that success = fun, and that you've never been in a successful pickup group because you've had fun. The question remains, what is success to you then if it's not successfully getting XP, completing missions, and so forth?


[ QUOTE ]
Good for you. Glad you could beat your chest and tell us how great you are.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hardly beating my chest about it. That's just how some of my characters get XP in their 20's and lower 30's. I do missions with 3 of my characters, to experience game content. The respec trial is a very lucrative XP deal and it beats whining for powerlevelling in PI, and allows me to actually contribute, not stand around, bored.


[ QUOTE ]
I've done the respec once. With friends and fellow SG-mates. One of them messed up, and he was the highest level of us, so the rest of us were fighting +3 enemies, and then he levelled during the first mission (oops) so then we were all fighting +4s but him. So we failed the respec and everyone died and got lots of debt. We also didn't know you could heal the reactor, LOL. Despite that it was fun. We had a blast because we were roleplaying and one guy who has a great sense of humor made it funny. I enjoyed doing it with those 3, and would do it with them again if they asked. We FAILED the mission, but I don't consider that group a failure or "disaster" because, for the 2 hours or so we were on the mission I had fun.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough. I had fun nearly all the time, in all my respec trials, except in the last moments of failure. Sometimes that was the catalyst for a successful one right afterwards. But I am not going to say "thanks for beating your chest for having fun" because that's just silly.

I'm not here to deride you for having fun. I am here to get you to clarify what specifically is fun since mission completion, XP, grouping with others that aren't RF friends, etc are not. You made quite a few hefty claims in this thread against pickup groups, to have it become obvious that you're no expert on pickup groups. Hardly a source of viable information. Especially when your standards are so far out of norm for what defines "success" in a pickup group.

Fun is apparently an abstract concept that has no correlation to "doing well" yet somehow is the very definition of "success" for you. Yet you complain to me as if I am somehow being unclear here. Or not paying attention. Or taking your words out of context. Nevermind that you admit you weren't clear earlier, and admitted I was right on some points. The fault for my not understanding what you mean by success/fun isn't with me, but rather your inability or desire to explain it.

[ QUOTE ]
FUN is the yardstick I use in any game, because it is the only thing that matters... not how much XP I got, how many respec badges I have, how fast I levelled, or any of that crap. FUN... that's it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then you should use "fun" as your yardstick, not success. Because if anything you've said you've been successful in pickup groups except for some less-than-clear explanation of fun that's totally independant of measurable goals like XP, completed missions, and so forth.

[ QUOTE ]
Pickup groups (the 4 or 5 I've tried) have been NOT FUN (not NOT SUCCESSFUL... NOT FUN), and thus I don't do them any more.

[/ QUOTE ]

Totally understood. But you'll understand if the majority of people disagree with such an absolute statement. Or don't equate success with only fun.

[ QUOTE ]
Again, if YOU have fun doing them, go ahead. That doesn't change the fact that not everyone ELSE has fun doing them, that I don't, or that the game is much friendlier to pickup groups than to permanent groups of friends.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough. Just don't expect everyone to have the same values as you either. I'd bet far more people would agree with me that pickup groups can be successful AND fun, in more ways than just you envision. Just because you write them off entirely doesn't mean the rest of the players will.

Well I respectfully disagree with you Concern that a strong group game must be comprised of strong soloers. But I agree that a game like CoH should have competant solo classes because clearly some people like soloing more than others, and some people like having the option of soloing effectively while waiting for groups, etc.

We do see the dynamic that some classes can solo better than others, but offer less to a large group than the less competant soloers who are more geared for group play.

That happens, and I don't think anyone has a problem with that.

I don't believe this game is starting a bad trend, in making the content harder. I see that as neccessary, because quite frankly much of it is just to easy. And is at best, time consuming.

I come from a strong background of FPS shooters, and maybe that colors my opinion. But I found all my local LAN parties boring beause quite frankly I outstripped all my friends in skill. It's only modestly fun winning a tournament LAN with only an Impact hammer.

This is essentially what much of the gaming in CoH has become, for quite a few AT's.

I can't tell you the last time my 2 blasters, 2 tankers and 1 scrapper sweated in a mission, solo. My SR scrapper, as "gimped" as he is for not being Regen or INV, can take on a dozen even-con mobs constantly on the streets of IP, and only have to pop a couple CaB's per fight, and if things go south, 1 Respite. I've yet to encounter anything hard for him since the Atta mission in the Hollows. At most I see 3-4 even cons in a mission tight enough to all aggro, solo, and that's no challenge at all.

I do agree that it's probably significantly harder for a fringe-soloer to fight bosses, but I doubt it's impossible.

I see where Fraktal and CH are coming from, I agree with them that grouping is more fun than soloing, for the most part. I also agree that people who are built to solo should still be able to solo. But I disagree with the notion that this game should not a) encourage grouping or b) the game shouldn't be more challenging. Solo missions need to be more challenging. Not merely upcoming ones that are being created, but existing ones. Because most of them are very easy until you come up against the AV in the mission. But frequently the only challenge I find in any missions period are when bosses are in them, and that varies depending on which hero I am playing, which boss might be challenging at all.

Sure there is the mission slider, and that helps. But even at "hard boiled" the game is too easy. I still am having fun with it, but it's not the same thing. The only way to have any risk in the game is with groups, in my opinion, but to me that's just more fun. This is totally outside the social aspect of teaming with friends or other heroes and fighting villainy with them.

Bottom line: I haven't seen on Test, through my testing, how increasing the health and damage of bosses on test in any way makes this game dramatically harder. Or a less soloable game. Not to any significant measure. I'd argue a change to the AI to make villains smarter is a better alternative than raising HP/DMG, but that should be done across the board.

Will that make the game harder to solo? Certainly. But it would make the game more fun, and allow tactics to be more important. Right now if you have a tanker or controller, or decent scrapper in the group, you can herd or hold a small group while the damage dealers take care of the dirty work. Very simple tactics, and they work every time. The other tactic is to let the AoE blasters go to town and decimate the group in seconds. At lvl 32+ a 3-blaster group can wipe any street corner their level, or any mission with barely a scratch, regardless of minions, LT or boss. Just take turns with Nova/Inferno/etc. Once they reach an AV they suddenly need a tanker and a practically any defender or controller. That's about it.

[ QUOTE ]
Which is the whole point of this tread. Very few people will complain if 5% of the missions are unsoloable.

[/ QUOTE ]

However, we have that now, and look at the threads we have by people complaining they have to get others to help them finish some missions? One person on these forums complains he has 3 missions now he cannot solo because of AV's, and he's so frustrated. Oh how the game forces grouping, and so forth. This is just proof that you can't please everyone all of the time.

[ QUOTE ]
However if bosses where changed so that there wasn't a reasonable chance of beating them solo, then that makes 95% of the missions too hard for most AT's to solo.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, if 95% of all missions were impossible to solo, you'd have a point. The fact is, that's not even the case on Live. I've already tried most of my alts (all of whom are 25+) on Test and they can all solo, even my highly pathetic mind controller (Psyclonus) can still solo, though not his missions because I didn't design him to be an effective soloer. I just avoid LT's and bosses with him as I normally do.

[ QUOTE ]
If this becomes the way things are on live, where 95% of the missions can not be soloed by most AT's, then that is a fairly major change in how CoH currently is played.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. But as I can certainly tell through testing on the test server, that's nowhere near the case.

YES it will be harder, to whatever extent, to fight bosses. But not impossible solo, just harder. With the characters I've tested to fight bosses it's only marginally more difficult. My blaster still drops in 2 shots from an even-con boss if hit. My scrapper has to use a little more endurance, the endurance hog that he is. My fire tanker has to put down another burn patch. And so forth.

[ QUOTE ]
As others pointed out, this is not adding new content in, it is changing what was solo content into group only content.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not hardly. Not even remotely close in my experience. I don't know how specifically others are having problems but I've got 2 tankers, a scrapper, 2 blasters that can still solo bosses just fine on Test. If I had a free respec I'd test Psyclonus on Live and Test and make him a solo build, and see if there is a significant change. But there isn't on my other characters, for sure.

Fraktal, but you said you've never been in a successful pickup group. Something is wrong there. I get in successful pickup groups all the time! It's hard to find a group that fails in this game.

You say you group all the time, but 100% of your pickup groups are not successful. Does that seem a little odd? Who else has that sort of abysimally bad odds?

When you say you've never ever ever EVER ever EVER been in a successful pickup group - not even ONCE in all your time playing the game EVER - that has to mean something. That is, if you word means anything at face value.

If you want me to believe you - you need to post something credible. Otherwise I have to believe there is something wrong with you, because you've never ever ever been in a successful pickup group. I don't know how a SG would even know you're a good player in order to recruit you. What happened the first time you grouped with them? Utter failure?

Personally, I can't believe for a second you are totally incompetant. But then, I don't even believe that you've never EVER EVER EVER been in a successful pickup group. Really. Not with the characters I see in your sig, not to mention any others you probably dabbled in from time to time. By no means are you an inexperienced player.

I see both sides. I agree if you want to solo, you should be able to solo your way to lvl 50. Just some AT's and power sets are better at it than others. My mind controller would take me forever, for example. Then there is player skill, etc.

But the fact is there are some missions, I'd guess about 5% in my experience, that are too hard for most AT's alone. That's the exception, not the rule.

If you want to do these missions, most likely the vast majority of players will have to recruit help.

If 100% of all your pickup groups have not been successful, how have they been fun?

One last thing, I didn't put a single word in your mouth. I merely assumed by your own statement that you've never been in a successful pickup group, and assumed since you're the constant in all those pickup groups, the problem must lie with you. That doesn't mean I am claiming you said you're a miserable failure, or whatever.

I've failed a few respec trials to be honest. But I've done the first one 40-50 times so far, and I figure I've failed it a dozen times, all told. Done the second one twice, both successes.

[ QUOTE ]
[censored]? ever been to Perez Park?

[/ QUOTE ]

Countless times.

[ QUOTE ]
Almost every since group you see street hunting *sh, not the park* has a damn boss in it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Every "single" group you see? Yeah Perez Park isn't your ordinary zone like AP/GC/KR with small groups of mobs. You know why? It's called a "Hazard Zone." Those are zones that are designed for groups. Just so you know, it's been this way since the game's release.

[ QUOTE ]
some more then one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct. And sometimes you can see 2 bosses by themselves, or groups without any bosses whatsoever.

If you're going to complain about soloing bosses, why not talk about a zone where bosses occur in non-Hazard, non-Trial zones. Or in missions than you took solo.

[ QUOTE ]
I dont mind soloing a boss, but when u got 10 other mobs shooting me, PLUS 2 OR SO LTNS, it gets annoying, plus with them RAISING the damage..what the heck?!?!

[/ QUOTE ]

Well it seems you weren't aware what Hazard zones are for. That's basically your problem, not anybody else's.

[ QUOTE ]
Bosses are already strong enough, especally when you solo, why make them unsoloable for chars lower then the boss?

[/ QUOTE ]

That would be a red boss, or a +1 boss, just to clarify. Well they won't be unsoloable to all AT's, just more difficult than before, apparently. The reason why? To require you to use more inspirations (or use any inspirations at all - My scrapper rarely uses them at this point) or to encourage grouping.

You can easily read the Dev Digest to get a better understanding of they Dev's decisions here. Many of their quotes have been showcased in this thread actually.

[ QUOTE ]
They said they would not try and force people into grouping...right

[/ QUOTE ]

Who specifically said that, and when? Quote please. I'd like to see the context of such a thing if they said it.

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps because it is so true... Pickup groups... every one I've ever been in has been a disaster. So "I don't do pickup groups" anymore, thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's pretty sad, really. Do you just not function well in a group, Fraktal? Most of the pickup groups I've been in have been successful. Or certainly, a far better success rate than 0% which you apparently have.

You're the first person I've ever heard to have no success _ever_ when grouping. That's quite an abberation. I'm impressed.

I've read your arguements in this thread, and although compelling, your arguement is flawed by your inability to be successful when being part of a group. This should be a warning sign for those who might not know what they're about to get into, having you on their team. I can only imagine what you do in pickup groups, which cause every single one of them in your experience, to fail completely.

Mind you, I'm only taking you at your word here. So I might be wrong, based on something you've omitted, but certainly your constant failure to acheive success in just ONE single pickup group HAS to be a factor somehow.

The fact is you can solo through 95% of this games's missions if you play a solo-centric hero. There are a number of missions, particularly in the high 30's and 40's, which have AV's at the end of story arcs, or in select missions. But until then for the most part you might have a boss or 2 in a solo mission.

I see here all 4 characters you list in your sig are great solo AT's, with effective solo power sets. I can't imagine you have much problem soloing too many missions. That's obviously a plus in your extremely bizarre case.

Bosses ought to be rare? No! I WANT to fight bosses! They give good XP! If you're street hunting, and not in a trial or hazard zone, you won't often see bosses. And you can skip them and move to the next group.

Inspirations are cheap! Stock up on them before each mission! I have a lvl 40 blaster now, who's done every lvl 30-40 door mission the game can throw at me, most of them solo, and I've rarely had problems. Why? Skittles!

I know I'm going to face a boss or 2 every mission. I also manage my inspirations as I use them in a mission, and be sure to pick up what I need from my contacts as needed.

I think too many of your are willfully trying to take what Statesman et al says out of context for no constructive purpose.

If you pick up the game and never read the tutorial, never read the missions, decide never to ask questions, solo exclusively, you'll STILL figure out how to play the game given enough time. Sooner or later you'll figure it out, or you'll quit in frustration.

If you can complain on these forums, then you're intelligent enough to realize that bosses are tough. Some tougher than others. Not all can be solo'd easily. Each have different strengths and weaknesses. And depending on what type of AT you have, what powers you picked, and how smart you are, you may have less problems than others playing a similar character, in a similar mission or situation.

The things some of you say, somtimes....

[ QUOTE ]
personally I could care less about it... i just like to beat up things, complete missions and get badges... and i would rather not have to read things from contacts...

this is just the way i like to play... so if there will be missions that cannot be solo'd... then I would like the ability to drop them so I can move on and not get my mission log clogged up with non-solo missions...

yes perhaps i should go find another game then...

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like to walk to the corner store and get some milk, but I don't want to have to look both ways before crossing the street. So perhaps I should quit drinking milk...

Really, ignore warnings at your own risk. It's understandable that not every contact gives you a warning that the mission is timed before it starts. But you can bug it and help reduce the chance you'll get a timed mission by paying attention.

Usually the warning about timed missions is at the bottom of the contact's message to you, btw.

Well he's clear in what he says, but he uses a lot of generalities. There's nothing wrong with that. You can always find exceptions to the rule, as it's nigh impossible to defend an absolute. But there is a difference between using generalities often, and being unclear.

I don't think he's been unclear at all.

I think this thread would be more appropriately titled:

The things some readers interpret from Statesman's comments.

Well Imps for the longest time had the HP and damage of minions instead of pets. That's the bug they were talking about.

[ QUOTE ]
How is everyone elses SG doing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Very good, thank you for asking. We're still getting more recruits (higher lvl people, 30+ mostly) here and there. We've had to dump alts to make room for more people.

15 types of enemies eh? Have you played past lvl 10 yet? I've played a few MMO's and CoH holds it's own nicely. Furthermore it's alot more freeing than others too, with it's combat style and travel abilities. This game is not supposed to mirror EQ. And the majority of people are glad for that. Who needs dozens of time sinks, endless camping, and so forth?

The very concept that Epic Power Pools, or anything new for that matter, somehow "dooms" a game is silly.

I think a brief Hold effect for a number of electric attacks would be appropriate. We already see some attacks do that on mobs, where they shake uncontrollably. I think they should extend that to the majority of attacks like knockback or disorient is for most energy attacks.

Well they are not forcing grouping, just adding more incentives to group.

[ QUOTE ]
Why not just, I don't know, YANK Unplayable Stance and put something similar to Practiced Brawler or Integration in in it's place? Smaller job, no rooting. I don't even find a SLOW to be "comic book". I don't recall seeing many tanks creeping slowly around, let alone being locked in place.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah it's not like INV Tanker or Scrappers NEED the resistance offered by US, with all their other defenses and resists.

I'd argue mobile status protection is more important than even more resists.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just to give you a stat side...

The success rate on the respec is a tad over 75%.

[/ QUOTE ]

is that based on people who have completed respec 3 or less times? or does it include people who farm the respec missions and always win... vs the gimped pickup groups that usually fail at least once or twice?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's based on all attempts, which includes those people you listed above, and everyone else.