QiSnake

[ QUOTE ]

the thing i can't understand is that heroes complain about thing that they seems to think can be founded only in the vilain side.
i can't remember all the time i got attacked by 5 heroes at the same time and saw on the local channel "o my gad you died!"


[/ QUOTE ]
If you think that heroes only think the villains do it, you're sorely mistaken. Villains often call 'gank' too. Heroes would appear to do this more, but generally because of the no-interaction nature of a 'fight' with a stalker for those who dont have strong defense/strong perception+accuracy.

[ QUOTE ]
Here's another thought for you. Once the 'going rogue' system is in place and we have stalkers on both sides of the wall, will we see the same complaints about certain 'uber' builds once they are available to all?

[/ QUOTE ]
I think so. Heroes will complain about scrappers and blasters (at least the squishies will ), and Villains will complain about the stalkers and the brutes. On the bright side, with all AT's available to both sides, even in a less abundant number, it might be a bit more likely to break out of those mood-breaking deadlock hours in PVP.

It'll be interesting to see what people think, once they are forced to face some of their own AT's in combat. I think it'll be a rude awakening for a lot of us, and hopefully that might cause a bit more peace on the PVP front? Wishful thinking, yeah, I know

[ QUOTE ]
2 acc 3 range 1 rchg on Licker works a treat

[/ QUOTE ]
I was about to suggest throwing a recharge in there

I have yet to take the power, but i've seen the recharge times. It all depends on how often you end up using it. If its one of your last-resort tricks, then perhaps the three-accuracy three-range would serve you better, but if you use it more, the extra recharge should make a good bit of difference.

[ QUOTE ]
How anyone could boast, gloat & feel any more worth over someone else over pressing a button, in the rough vincinity of another character, with a power that's the rock/paper/scissor to someone elses rock/paper/scissor defies belief & is the behaviour of fools.

Whats more bewildering is people who advocate relaxed & respectful play & doing entirely the opposite on the test server .


[/ QUOTE ]
::Mighty vanishes in a gust of imploding material, only to reappear in an upside-down mess, an inch from a drone::

lol [censored] n00b u dont no wot reul powar is
...
Even for a joke, I suddenly feel really dirty. Dirty in a bad way. I mean uh, non adult-rated bad way.
*goes to scrub himself clean*

[ QUOTE ]

Golden Girl is the most Heroic in spirit. Perhaps the only person that makes me regret my evil ways. ;-)


[/ QUOTE ]
You know its not too late to turn away from your evil ways. Dont worry, im not going to sing an inspiring song at you to a scrolling Paragon City flag background, but still, think it over. We have benefits even the villains dont get.

DISCLAIMER : If you see something that can be interpretted as either an insult or a blunt point, try interpretting it as a blunt point first, thanks.
-----------------
[ QUOTE ]
Erm, its a PvP Zone. If a villain sees you, they are instinctively going to attack you, that is called PvP. Its not ganking, griefing or any other word. Its a PvP zone so anything goes. Get over it and stop whining.

[/ QUOTE ]
The coined term for overwhelming odds which you cannot fight against, and being forced to face them in a way that is exceptionally difficult to escape from, is 'ganking'. Sneering down at someone for raising an actual subject out of the poor behaviour in the PVP zones, only makes you sound obnoxious. Playing that "Get over it and stop whining!" card, does nothing but spark hostility. If its so necessary you use things like that, you could always try substituting it for : "Man, I think im so cool."

[ QUOTE ]

There's nothing particular to the villains side and stalkers, don't kid yourself. Controllers, blasters and scrappers behave in exactly the same way. I've had relentless name-calling, personal tells and badgering playing as a Dominator from heroes simply because they think it's unfair I should even be in the zone, since of course everyone knows Dominators are a rubbish AT and shouldn't have the temerity to show their beastly face in PvP.


[/ QUOTE ]
People are often under the misconception that the obnoxious behaviour in the PVP zones is limited (or mostly confined) to a single side. Both sides suffer it, and it becomes something of a passive hatewar unless you have characters on both sides. If I had a laser-shark for every time I heard a "you heroes" or "you villains" line, i'd have a whole lot of fricken laser-sharks.

[ QUOTE ]

Villains are acting like villains imo, pvp has no rules


[/ QUOTE ]
Firstly, -players- are acting like villains. Roleplay is something that is done with mutual consent and within the games rules, not inflicting a vile character upon someone else in a zone that has no attached roleplay elements. Secondly, the PVP zone does have rules, the same standard rules of common courteousy and such that we are all held by in even the PVE sections. People seem to suddenly believe that once they are in a competetive environment that they can start hurling abuse around and treating the opposition (and sometimes their own side) like dirt. Not everyone does it, but it repeatedly occurs at a rate that makes people stop PVPing, or outright puts people off returning after their first visit.

[ QUOTE ]

-So don't imply that people are stupid...
-and again with the insults...
-or on the forums apparently...
-So take a chill pill and stop being so bloody offensive.


[/ QUOTE ]
Listening to the same old regurgitated, patronising remarks like :
"Get over it, stop whinging (go to the arena)"
"Its a PVP zone what did you expect?"
"What did you expect villains to do?"
"You're only annoyed because you lost? "
"If you ditch half of your powers in a respec, its easy to fight -insert enemy AT here-!"
..is bound to make someone frustrated, especially when they have heard them repeatedly. Hearing them that extra time in the actual thread you're adressing a subject you loathe, is going to get someone riled up. Making further patronising remarks in reaction to his responses, will only further the frustration. Poke patient in bruise. If patient yelps in pain, try poking again to make them quiet. Nope, doesnt work. If this isnt a "Dance my puppet, dance!" deal, then a different approach/tone would better serve to disarm hostilities. I expect you'll point out that my tone isnt exactly polite either, but the difference is, I talk like this when people just cant help themselves from sticking a little knife in every single bloody time the gap for another knife shows. My behaviour has reason, even if im prone to overreacting, and if thats all im doing, feel free to ignore me and/or beat me with a handful of dry reeds. Dog gets to a point where he only learns with a good beatin!

And finally, now i've stopped lecturing people like an egotistical jack[mule] (I mean well, please trust me on that much -.-), its time for that little snippet of divinely inspired text that actually addresses the thread at hand. I'll just wait a moment for people to stop gouging my eyes out... there...

Those of us who go to the PVP zones have likely suffered something like this at one point or another. Some handle it a lot better than others, but regardless it still ends up wrecking the fun. When it persists, it ends up emptying the PVP zone as one side exhausts their friends lists of support, and figure that they simply dont have a chance unless they spend an age sitting around on their hands, or are simply insulted of the field back into PVE, or frustrated enough to log off and try to get out of a bad mood. I think that most people would agree that it would be nice if something would be done about these times it gets out of hand, both on the in-game side and on the player-to-player interaction.

Now, this is the real killer :
What exactly can be done?

Moderating the PVP zones at most active times will take resources that most companies dont want to spend (or maybe that they simply cant). Even if they could do that, it would mean that there is a human being making decisions and occasionally pointing a galvel around saying "Guilty!", and human beings make mistakes. Things blow up easily in a charged environment, imagine what would happen if a PVP moderator made a bad call, and punished/warned a person/team that were in fact the victims of something, rather than the aggressor?

An automated feature that 'balances' elements of a PVP zone when one side heavily outnumbers the other is also unlikely to happen, due to the fact that player desires are unimportant when compared to the devs 'vision' of the game. PVP zones have been around long enough for them to notice how bad it can end up at times, and im certain this has been suggested before. Can anyone remember a more definate conclusion, any kind of redname comments? Outside of more brainstorming and hoping that some merciful PVP god above would make our suggestion be heard and implimented... or perhaps holding a kitten to ransom... what exactly can we do?
(thats an actual question, not supposed to be self-answering)

Although the primary purpose of this thread might have been to vent amongst friendly faces, I wouldnt write it off as nothing more than a complete rant. We all go into the PVP zones know that the odds wont always be fair, but sometimes it can be so ludacrous (both in-game and between individual players) that we cant help but wonder if something could be changed for the better.

Still so tempting, but with the lack of a Union character I really 'feel' or want to raise, and the abject lack of fine roleplaying talent, its still a long way off

Nope
The moment I saw the name of their team, I did a little wormholing and discovered their devious little plan. Whilst the names serve to initially slow down your targetting a little (having to quickly cycle through them to find the one you're looking for), eventually you memorise them instinctively and its just a normal battle. They went one step better than creating AT's with decieving costumes too, if I remember correctly, each of their members was the same height, wore the same colours, and so forth. Was nothing a quick 'consider' didnt solve for us. Oh how I love those little icons..

Didnt stop them from kicking our [bums] though!
*shakes fist at ice-patch and assorted slows for making both his scrapper and tanker useless*

Im not sure though, it might actually serve to actually confuse those who arent familiar with the game, but due to even the smaller audio/visual cues given by the powersets, its pretty easy to work things out.

In an RP sense of things, how would inspirations work at all? You could attribute it to talking to old contacts you've worked with for a quick chat, and feeling uplifted/inspired in a manner that during combat, your unwavering morale allows you to perform higher than normal... with break-free's meaning that fuelled by either determination to see justice is done, or rage that someone is defying you, you managed to shrug off the negative effects someone placed upon you. Why would there be an exception for -fly/terrorise/etc? If a person can return from sleep, paralysis, choking, a state of swimming consciousness etc, on this premise, then why cant they use a breakfree and say that in that moment of fuelled determination, then managed to focus their powers in a manner that they 'shook off' what slowed/terrorised/denied movement?

Using an RP point of view to try snuff a question/suggestion isnt very effective, given that people use "mysterious unnamed energy X" and "cosmic radioactive micrometorite wheetos" to attribute the fact they can control robots or wield a broadsword. Roleplaying outside of what the game rules enforce upon you, is optional, and im not here to talk about the in-character implications, but rather the simple in-game rules and functions.

True enough, but why I land a -fly on someone with mez supression, they dont seem to have their SJ ability removed for more than a few seconds, and this isnt enhancable. (gravity power : lift)
If I face an opponent with super speed, and they have mez resist, landing an immob doesnt really effect their ability to wave at me from the horizon whilst their yellow motion-streak catches up to them.

And yet, why does it seem that every time Air Suppression is used, the target is grounded for what seems like an absurd amount of time? I can apppreciate that there are some who dont have the ranged attacks to effect a hover/flyer, but does the -fly have to last that long?

The funny thing is, I do recall being Air Sup'd by a few people ages ago, and the effects werent nearly as long. In fact the effect was about right, it gave them long enough to pound on me, but not so long that I was forced to sit there for a fortnight whilst they brawled through my PFF. Now, Air Sup appears to ground me for a good weekend..

So, my foggy little mind asks this : Is it possible to enhance -fly? Or is it possible that the effectiveness of -fly increases dramatically as that characters level gets higher? Why doesnt a breakfree counter -fly and -jump?

Then again, people with mez resist seem to be able to SJ/SS even when I land a hit-but-resisted immob (slow), or a -fly (grav control : lift), but the fliers still appear to be grounded? Are my observations off, or is fly just easier to cancel out than the others?

Its almost like the division between tauntless scrankers and aggro-managing tankers. Both are viable uses of an AT, and have their uses (an endurant but slow-progressing damage dealer, and a unit that focuses mostly on keeping the other teammates alive). The first thing anyone who picks a stalker will notice, is "Hide" "Assassin Strike", "Placate" and "Build Up" placed in all of the sets (not sure about BU though), and this reads to many people that the AT has but one solid purpose. Single-target oblitoration. Whilst I believe that stalkers are supposed to rely on their hiding ability, I dont think they were entirely supposed to rely on AS. The AS-placate-critical-run stalkers, are akin to the blasters who will only engage in combat with BU+Aim+Snipe, and coincidentally those kinds of fighters normally have some form of stealth too. The main difference is that blasters (and other AT's who resort to relying almost solely on a single powerful technique), have a more readily usable arsenal should things go awry.

Stalkers unfortunately dont have quite that same ability readily available to them. Its possible for a stalker to stand toe-to-toe to a lot of builds and hold their own, but for them to do that, they have to be careful with their build, and sometimes start the character with this unhidden combat in mind. I wouldnt see stalkers as underpowered, but more of an AT that requires a certain kind of player. Anyone can do the AS/Placate fighter, in the same way that anyone can spam holds, spam heals and snipe-hide-repeat.... but a competant AT user has to learn not only the AT, but their personal build inside-out. Whilst spamming holds and heals can be quite effective, those who know what they're doing see far more than just a few buttons to mash. Its the same with scrappers. Some scrappers think "I have a high damage AT" and run to melee range and do little else but mash buttons as they recharge. A good scrapper will learn what to use and when, how to move, when to engage, and in which order. This might lead back into the old thread of "there is no skill in PVP", but given what input we can use, there is at least an element of skill.

Whilst I cannot completely write off solo-assassins as being the inexperienced way of stalker using (devoted quick-killers have to learn timing, patience, and even psychological tactics to survive in PVP)... I would have to see it as the basic form of stalking. Way back when, I thought every stalker would be a gank machine, full-stop. I then had the (dis)pleasure of meeting some stalkers who actually had some real skill, and despite my flowing stream of blood-gargled profanity... it just showed that the stalker AT is simply hard to use to its fullest extent.

Its kind of like Tai-Chi, the famed "old fogies" martial art, considered useless outside of mere exercise by many, and often seen as a weak style by those who employ more forceful arts. Only if you tried to mug someone who had been practicing nothing but Tai Chi all his/her life, you'd still find yourself on the floor. Even 'basics' when honed enough, can be very effective, and shouldnt be looked upon as a a lesser form, exactly.

The frustration from stalkers does come from the basic stalking form, and how there is no gray area, the way that the stalker is either the nullifier or the nullified. They are hated because of the way they dont actually seem to take part in fights, but seem to be a "special rule" that the devs threw in.
"If target hero stands still, remove hero from play"
"If target hero spots stalker, roll rice, 1-2-3 : Stalker dies. 4-5-6 : Stalker escapes"

That is why stalkers learned to run, they had to, or they'd suffer the same ganking that they have come to rely upon to actually play a part in the game. Once a stalker gets hooked on that way of life, and devotes more and more time, thought and patience into raising and living as an budding one-shotter, the less likely they are to try develop another way of fighting. This may be why many stalkers are treated as "recruit and forget" weapons. They are added to a team, then ignored as they go about their own business elsewhere.

To be honest, I wouldnt try to raise a 'blitz' stalker myself, its difficult, and there is little advice or obvious hints on how to raise a less 'cowardly' stalker. That wont stop me from being annoyed at being a null-factor when a stalker makes me a favored target, though.

Cheers

Despite flys lack of actual aerial speed, I would have to say it is the most stable and versatile of all the powers. True, its hungry for some initial slotting, but its my fave out of the lot.

-fly is still a bit overpowered, in my opinion.

[ QUOTE ]

BUG : , ATM VILLAINS CANNOT TEAM WITH HEROES...


[/ QUOTE ]
Can we get confirmation that this happens in the arena? I thought this was a Warburg-only problem, given the valentines day mixed-side missions. If heroes and villains cannot team together, then the random element will be shot in the foot (only one foot, mind )

[ QUOTE ]

Oh broaden your perspective. If there wouldnt be tactics for survival and everyone would just charge headfirst to get kills or die trying, pvp would be very boring due to being one-dimensional.


[/ QUOTE ]
Like when heroes dive-bomb the villain base in SC, trying to grab a one-shot before the drone gets them? :3

I have to agree with Upsurge here. As he has said, its understandable cowardice, practically cowardice by design. He wasnt saying that tactics for survival are bad, he said that heroes often need tactics just to bring a stalker out to actually participate, rather being a thorn-in-the-side factor. I have to agree with that, too. Many times, people protecting stalkers in these threads keep pointing out that if a stalker cant make that insta-kill (be it 1-shot, or AS with placate and follow-ups), then they are likely to end up dead if they dont run for the hills. There is one little thing that people are missing here : Stalkers are in part a support AT. Thats right. Sure, stalkers can solo most single targets exceptionally well, but that doesnt rule out the fact that due to stalkers abilities and low hitpoints, they are support AT's. Attempting to assassinate a target who has strong friends around, and then getting floored after the kill, doesnt mean that stalkers are designed to be played on instakill->run tactics, it means that to show their real strengths, they need teammates.

If you have ever seen a good stalker actively participating AND supporting a team, they are far more lethal than when they are alone or even when teamed up with another stalker. Sure, stalker squads and drop targets fast, but stalkers still have their weaknesses. A stalker who knows how to compliment a team, with a team who actually works with the stalker in mind (rather than treating them as recruit-and-forget weapons), are incredibly powerful.

It does make me wonder. Stalker enthusiasts have asked for increased AS damage so they can better solo against tankers, they have asked for enhanced hitpoints and normal damage so they can be more effective in revealed combat, every time someone talks about AS/Placate or the hide/detect rules there are sure to be a handful of them accusing you of "NERF T3H ST4lkz0r5!!11" without actually reading your post, and the enthusiasts think they have it hard when they cant dive a crowd (invisibility or not), take out someone, then get away scott free...

I guess what im trying to say is, nobody is forcing stalkers to play it solo, and play it suicidally. Stalkers are not the only AT to have downsides.

[ QUOTE ]
I havent been able to try this myself yet (not on the training server) but I expect that the repulsion field in the force mastery epics for blasters will stop an assasin strike and send them flying I certainly intended to 3 slot it with acc and hopefully thats the last I will see of the stalkers.

[/ QUOTE ]
Its kinda useful, but you have to remember that a normal anti-stalker tactic is to keep moving. So lets say you're running repulsion field, and moving. A stalker manages to start their AS, and you walk off. All they have to do is dodge a single 'tick' of repulsion, and they have you. The best way for it to be effective? Stand still. Though isnt that the one thing you dont want to do around stalkers? Give them the space to approach you the best way and make a strong attempt? Unfortunately the damned thing doesnt reveal stalkers, so whilst it might frustrate them, you're still looking at basically the same equasion... only a small anti-stalker boost, and a fair end-drain. xP

[ QUOTE ]

I've seen some odd thing happen with fear where I could actually move while having fear on my blaster. The effect is so short I've never really had any time to figure out whats going on.

[/ QUOTE ]
Fear isnt an absolute mez, it gives you tiny breaks every so often so you can either move for a short while before the 'hold' part of fear kicks in again, or so you can fire off an attack. I -think- you get short breaks in the cowering-in-fear by getting hit by an attack.

[ QUOTE ]
Keep Moving

[/ QUOTE ]
Unless of course you're trying to use a PBAoE to save your behind from an imminent attack, in which case you have to hold still or all but perhaps one of the ticks will miss (distance).

[ QUOTE ]

If your soloing in a PvP zone, stay in the water you can see a stalker in the water.


[/ QUOTE ]
Isnt this just a myth? I've been trailed by a stalker before, tried baiting them into striking me whilst we were in the water (I had my PFF up), and I heard them splashing, they kept nudging me... and evidently they must have been bored because they started jumping up and down right next to me, sound-spamming the splash after a while, but I didnt even see the remotest shimmer, even a non-targettable one. The sound helps you figure out if a ground-bound stalker is following you, but thats about all that water is good for. Outside of that, the water is more likely to hinder your ability to combat a stalker due to the targetting bugs that a load of people get.

Actually, this randomly assigned 3vs3 idea sounds awesome. Definately interested, now all I have to do is get a few more bars and Archelon'll be ready to go.

Man, im glad I grabbed that respec

[ QUOTE ]

These tactics ruin the zones and I fail to see any fun in them, if I am in the zone when this is going on I will usually swap to the side who is being base TPd, send a few fast PMs and wipe the zone. However I do it in a bad mood and with vitriol as the fun is all gone.


[/ QUOTE ]
I agree in part. Constant TP'ing of choice enemies is a great tactic, just the same as using knockback to keep someone in check is a great tactic too, just the same as droning the worst of an enemys team is the best way to force them to back off. Though in my humble opinion, there is a line where it goes from being a good tactic, to being something that seriously ruins the fun in the name of winning.

When there are -that- many people all crowding around a base, teleporting you out, using diving-one-shots before the drone removes you... then droning is the best tactic you can use. Yes it will annoy the living bejeebus out of them, but thats the idea... if you can force them to back off somewhat, then your side has the option to run into the field -with- them, and thats where the most is normally had. If you have to compare base-anchored combat to the times both sides have somewhat equal numbers, and meet in the middle, every time the combat in-the-field, even with its debt, is far more enjoyable.

As it stands, TP'ing only seems to beget TP'ing. Its like a hand-grenade. One devious person TP's someone into a drone/ganksquad a few times, then sits far far away and watches as every man, woman and their dog starts taking it personally, and makes it into a "who can TP fastest?" competition. Once those kinds of situations rise up, there isnt really much that people can do other than back away from the enemy, or leave the PVP zone... and leaving a PVP zone just because people are using annoying tactics just seems wrong. Getting your rear end handed to you is supposed to be half of the fun, but when your only option to survive is to run to the zones exit-point before your PVP:Off timer ticks down, then something isnt quite right.

On the bright side, at least i've only ever known one person to deliberately use NPC's to take out an enemy. Apparently the devs say its a 'valid tactic' and isnt against the rules, even with debt considered. At least -that- dirty tactic is being left alone enough. A few times, some of the worst TP offenders have taken a break to save an player-enemy from debt, or simply broken combat for a moment (losing their advantage) to prevent another persons debt. It gives me the warm fuzzies to see that But I still say debt doesnt belong in PVP zones, at least not full outdoor debt..

So, this thread has no real iron-cast purpose or topic, feel free to twist the subject as you see fit. I think im done.

[ QUOTE ]
What I find a bit strange with your 'revalation' Qi, is that you take what happened to you as the norm, while it is often the exception, not the rule. Also, you clearly have more experience playing as a hero, and you can't expect to hop into the oposite side and be just as effective as you are when playing your usual toons. Also, the fact that the villain base was under siege by a whole team of heroes tells me that the fight was a tad off balance in the first place.

[/ QUOTE ]
Oh, I havent taken this quite as the norm, but I made this thread just to give the stalkers i've poked at a little chance to retaliate whilst the getting is good I've already said that its probably down to how the battle was flowing at the time, and the fact I was using a villain of lower average original-level. The main point I guess I was trying to make, was that between PVE and hero-side PVP, I never quite realised there was a shadow in my opinion of PVP balance... one that i've started to explore now i've started to spend more time out in villain PVP.

[ QUOTE ]

Now, the same COULD have been said about blasters VS. stalkers, but here there is another factor coming into play, and that is the fact that 95% of stalkers can two-shot 95% of all blasters, and this doesn't give the blaster a chance to fight back, so experience don't come into play. Why? Because the only thing that can prevent two-shotting is the ability to see the stalker, and apart from /devices, no blasters will ever be able to see a stalker without the help of a leadership defender.


[/ QUOTE ]
And as i've said before, just being able to actually target a stalker is only half the battle, actually managing to hit/interrupt the buggers is the next half. After that rather messy siege of the villain base, stalkers were beginning to look necessary. I still think having an AT with that kind of "either you nullify me, or I nullify you" way of living is just a bad idea, because all it does is make either one side or the other feel completely robbed of any fun. Brutes are the only real staple of melee damage that the villains seem to have, even though stalkers are melee damagedealers, they feel far more like loner support AT's to me.

This looks shopped, I can tell from the pixels and having seen a number of shops in my time.
[/meme]

Heh, I had a fair old grumble to myself when I spent 90% of the time on the floor. Rad/Dark corruptor, only purpose in those fights was to teleport in, use fearsome stare and cosmic burst, then teleport out if I could. In the end, its all I could do. Im far from getting to grips with the villain side of things, because PvE and hero-side PVP gave a bit of a floored view on how powerful scrappers and blasters are. Just never realised how strong they are (or can be, in all the builds that passed me by), until I was being pommeled by them. Well, I can barely call it a beating when I go down in two (or one, as the case was).

Funny really, to be on the recieving end of my ex-teammates wrath, only to find I couldnt stand up to more than three hits at tops. So much I have yet to learn..
Oh, and forward apologies for the open moaning I did whilst getting beaten. Having a team of heroes camping on top of the crates in the villain base, teleporting hospital leavers up there straight into insta-mez and two-hit-kills (in the case of us without mez protection and squishy HP/def), and then if that wasnt enough, they were calling someone a n00b for droning them throughout the fighting? xP

[ QUOTE ]
See - crime doesn't pay - really, it doesn't

[/ QUOTE ]
In comparison to heroics, yes it does. I keep saying, but we heroes dont even get a sodding meal-ticket when we arrest an arch-villain for christs sake.

Congratulations!