Obsidian_Force2
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Posts
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Joined
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Let me see if I got this.
The current Kheldians do not do enough "support" so your assuming thats an oversight on the developers part and not a strong indication their not really ment for support and you want the AT changed to better reflect your views on Kheldians?
Once again I find it odd that this sort of thing only happens here.
The developers will not ever come out and state the role of Kheldians no matter who wants them to or how badly, but in my opinion the fact Kheldians do not have enough control powers to be truely effective controllers or enough buffs/debuffs/heal others to really take on a support role effectively but DO actually have enough damage to make formidable damage dealers to me points the way. Just as it does for each and every other AT.
We can do effective damage, we can effectively tank. This is built into the AT for a reason, and the fact we lack other abilities commonly attributed to other AT's I believe is also for a reason.
Again, just to be clear. I do not care how anyone builds their toons, more power to ya, but assuming the reason Kheldians dont have more support is because the developers never thought of it and it's some tradgic oversight I believe to be nothing but wishfull thinking on the part of people who as Darkstar said so well "claim to love Kheldians but do not actually love them because they want to change them into something their currently not." -
Quote:Actually I knew some powers spawned pets to cause an effect, I was unaware some powers spawned 2 pets for differing effects.Originally Posted by LordXenite
I was quite surprised at first, to learn how many powers actually do things by spawning hidden "pets" that heal, buff or debuff, and even cause damage ticks.
I figure it's doable just because they're the Devs and they can essentially do anything they'd like and this doesn't seem like something that would pose a technical difficulty to the game-engine in its current version.
I know, I know... if it's not about damage, it's not worth your time
And it's not su much not worth my time as, if I wanted to play a support toon I would make one. And my support toons do actually outnumber my damage toons so your just placing opinions of me you think fit, which is fine as I dont really mind. But when I play a damage oriented character I pick one (and like it or not Khelds are a damage oriented character whos main job is doing damage.).
You can build anything to be anything in this game and I don't care who makes what dispite what some people seem to proclaim, but trying to convince me a Kheldian isn't a predominantly damage oriented character and trying to build them as damage dealers and not support somehow makes me crazy is going to require a bit more proof than "well you can do it so it's gotta be good to do so." -
With I16 and the ability to scale encounters as if your an 8 man team solo and the ability to exclude bosses, I'm not sure the PB would be the easiest or best to solo up.
I'm not saying they wouldnt be but I would be interested in how things play out after I16. -
LOL, I don't hate it. It is true. The only time I hate the whole playstyle factor excuse is when it is used to refute numbers (theoreticly because there are too many possible combinations to acurately deduce results. Untrue btw because you "could" run data on every possible combination, it's just nobody is willing to spend THAT kinda time doing it, and the naysayers of the ebil maths like to capitalize on that fact.).
There are always factors and they do change results.
As to reliability of a ws tanking we do not run all Kheldian teams as a rule and our prefered tanker for ITF's are 3 seperate WS's all with slightly different builds and none have any problem smacking Romulous around normaly without buffs or heals needed. Not saying a PB might not be better or more reliable but all three of our WS's can tank well enough to where beating the TF is never in doubt, and with a very small number of deaths (damn squishy blasters and their over-agro). -
Quote:I'll be honest I'm not really going to miss the giggles and such, i'm not a silly person and have a low tolerance to it, I don't even like "family guy". I think your very correct about the change happening and it makes me sad to see the Kheldian forum the main if not only one ressistant to talking about the numbers.Originally Posted by Guardien
but the shift is taking place everywhere. Every board is talking numbers now, and not surprisingly, it has spread to here, the home of FUN! (tm). Not that numbers aren't fun...no no...math is good, stay in school...there's just no sense of adventure to it. There's no "omg, I did X Y Z on my WS last night, it was awesomesauce!" because all we see is 300% this, 180% that, 85% thisthat. The stories are gone....gone, from our EPIC! ATs....
I REMEMBER when LordX first started bamfing around in here, all wide-eyed and full of giggles...it makes me a lil sad to think the next generation of khelds might not be like that...
I agree totaly and I take almost full responcibility for it. I'm not nice, I am rude and in some cases condocending. It's my nature and I accept that i'll never be anyones choice for prom queen. I'm even ok with them taking Aliens advice before mine, as it's a free country.Quote:Originally Posted by CaptainQC
One thing that is not helping the comunity is seeing you both getting back at each other for some subtilities. You both have very valid points and I find that AlienOne as always been very helpful to anyone around here, where you Obsidian on the other hand you stand out as a rude person.. In the end what people remembers is that Alien is helpful and you are rude so likely that people will follow AlienOne's advice before yours. That's just my 2 scents i have been back to the game for about 1 month and been following the forums and thats how I feel about it.
What I'm not Ok with is when points I bring up are ignored because the answers that are true aren't liked. I LOVE to be proven wrong, it's the times I actually learn something new and I truely enjoy that, but when actually relivant questions and points are bypassed (and this happens OFTEN) I do get more rude and irritable.
I respect what you said (and you said it well) and I believe you are correct with only one exception. Asking the questions nobody else asks and running the points nobody else is willing to talk about IS usefull even if it is unwelcome due to the way it's posted.
I have said it before, I really don't care about being liked. What I do care about is that the facts (no matter what they are or who is right) get brought to light by debate and explaination for the purpose of giving everyone (even the "lazy" forum browsers) the insight they need to make fully informed decisions on how to play and build their Kheldian. -
My initial urge was a snarky comment, but this is actually probably the best thing to be done as he can continue to make his points and I can continue to raise mine when I believe something is amiss or left out without the bickering between the both of us.
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I don't doubt the RNG can hose you and maybe I just have abouve average luck but I do not remember a time where it caused me to miss so consecutively that I couldn't keep myself healed even on "most" AV's (there are some AV's that impose such a massive to hit debuff that yeah it's almost impossible, but this is a rare exception and not the rule) it simply recharges so fast that a miss while annoying is not a deal breaker for me.
I'm often infact able to battle back from 30-40% health to full by the end of the AV fight.
Reliability definantly goes to the PB while a better (over time) faster recharging heal goes to the WS. This simply to me follows the trend that hard targets are the PB forte while the WS deals better with multiple foes.
The more I think on it the more your probably right, on the average (meaning probably 8 out of 10 PB to WS comparisons not a so-so built character) build PB will probably provide a better consistant and reliable tanker. -
I am aware that was your intention, my only point was that it could easily be taken as both an advocation for "noobs" to take human only before their ready and an indication that "all" human builds would perform at the same type level as your build is indicated to perform at.
And I believe this a dangerous place to take a reader of the forums without also explaining the downsides to avoiding the forms.
So I am infact still wondering what your objection is to you or anyone else putting that sort of disclaimer in. Because I'll be honest it seems to bother you alot when I do exactly that. -
Fair enough, I didn't notice the bolded till after I posted, but in any case I do not remember (and no I do not have perfect memory) any of your posts where you admited error on your part other than the one involving 5x set bonuses (which I seriously couldn't believe you didn't know, because as much as I do not like you, you are very good at this sort of thing).
As such I also stand by my assertion, and infact speculate admitting error in a debate with me might actually kill you. -
It's more of "when" you choose to bring up numbers than if you like it or why that I find funny.
To my perspective (and I admit it's biased) you only bring up the stats when it supports your views and when the stats do not you claim the numbers do not match play experience and therefore cannot be fully trusted. -
I was going to post quotes of mine where I have said things like "you have a point but.." or "I'll have to give up ground on this one, although.." and things of this nature, but after rereading the word you used (Lies). I decided I would be wasting my time again and stopped as you didn't address anything I said. You just flat out said I was wrong (and lying)and figured that was good enough.
This however is exactly what I was talking about with your complete and total belief your always right and do not need to explain why. I cannot change that and thats fine, but the more I read of your posts the more I come to believe you really do believe your head and shoulders abouve the rest.
But again, thats just my take on things. -
Quote:And yet I have given up ground and conceded points I have had in error. You have not.Originally Posted by AlienOne
Well, I'm sorry to have to let you in on this, but you're not the "be-all, end-all" source for information on Khelds, no matter how much math you can spout off for hours on end. Many of us have had varying *SUCCESSFUL* experiences on playing Khelds MANY different ways, and we're all welcome to share what we know and what we've personally experienced on these boards.
Yourself included.
Your always correct in some way shape or form and you continue to throw around your credentials as proof you "know" what is what.
Your good. Your very good, but here is the thing. So am I. I have played longer than you (and I do not believe this matters in any way at all but you posted how long you have been playing so I thought I would point it out), spent "just" as much time on Kheldians as you have and am just as correct as you in my facts. So please remind yourself that you also are not the be-all, end-all of Kheldian affairs (oh and I know your going to say you never claimed to be but neither have I and it didn't stop you either).
I'm rude, I'm arrogant, and I'm annoying. I fully admit that. But seriously, how much of my information was actually incorrect? -
And this is exactly why I'll continue to say it. Because if the disclaimer isn't put in they might not be aware of it. Or somebody reading the post who is also interested in the information being talked about might not be aware of it either.
Tons of posts I have read but not entered into contain advice that is relivant to me, and I would want to know (and I'm not alone I believe) things like "If you build this way you will have alot of fun but overall you will be losing in some area."
If they want to build one particular way the disclaimer will not deter them but it will (possibly) inform them and or the other people reading along.
I do not see the harm in providing all the facts when a question is asked. Unless of course your attempting to sway people to one thing or another, in which case giving them all the facts might not be benificial to your cause (and I'm NOT saying it's your intention), it's just the only reason I can figure to not relate pertinant facts such as this other than not wanting to do the extra typing.
And just because I found it finaly, this is why I keep stating your making a claim, it's not direct but it would lead people to believe human is the equal of Tri-Form in my opinion and I believe this is missleading as it might give them the idea "they" will automaticly be able to do what you do.
Quote:If your talking pre-Eclipse I'll buy it but after Eclipse the survivability factor isn't an issue and the damage Squid puts out even including shape shifting time far surpasses what human can do in most situations on "most" builds with even a tiny bit of recharge built in.Originally Posted by AlienOne
I've found that numbers on paper and actual battle-numbers, depending on the type of enemy you fight and what powers they have are quite different. I've found when soloing 8-man mobs that my human form is waaay more likely to survive and continue to put out numbers than my nova form is, therefore making the human form numbers higher in the long run, because the nova form winds up dying after a very short period of time. That, and the fact that there are only 4 attacks compared to the 6 or 7 I have in human form....ehhh... On top of that, there's no form switch time in human form--you just keep going with no stop... Numbers on paper aside... It's a no-brainer to me. I'd rather stay alive and continue to put out numbers. Don't get me wrong... I love nova form.... But, only in a situation where I have full and complete team support... If there's a controller holding the whole mob, yeah, nova is going to be the obvious choice... But, if I'm by myself taking on an 8-man mob with no help/no support? The form that's the most survivable AND puts out a heck of a lot of damage? Human form all the way. Dwarf may be more survivable, but it doesn't compare to my human form damage. Therefore, human form wins the "balanced" (survivability/damage output) equasion.
That said, I can't WAIT until i16 is released and I can scale mobs, so I can actually show videos of both in action, so you can see what I'm talking about.
"The One"
I believe you when you say it works best for you but this post would lead people to think human would outperform Tri-Forms on the majority of builds and I do not believe this is the case for most players skilled enough to run both types equally well. -
Lets just pretend we didn't and nobody will notice...
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In odd or extream cases of high defence or extreamly bad luck sure. But for the most part I'll live with my 95% heal. I do not concider this enough of a limitation to put PB dwarf form any more than marginaly better than the black version.
I do however find it ammussing that you only point to numbers when it aids your causes and tend to ignore them when they do not. -
Quote:Much hatred of agreeing is mine. But yes, the Kheldians getting left out till later is getting very old. If were a REAL AT we need to start being more than their afterthought.Originally Posted by AlienOne
Why would I want to? I don't know... Because I like other colors better than purple? Maybe because all ATs should be afforded the same attention when it comes to colorization?
"The One" -
I don't understand your discounting Black Dwarf Drain (a 200-300 point self heal every 6-10 seconds) as a decent self heal. Over time I believe it might actually be superior to the PB Dwarf heal.
Additionaly saying "without Eclipse" is like me saying I would be a better pitcher than the major league baseball pitchers if you took away their pitching arm. Your correct but... -
Quote:Pot, meet kettle. Did you know your black?Originally Posted by AlienOne
No, I'm not stating what "will" happen. No one can do that.
I'm stating what "has" happened.
I find it personally extremely very hard to pay attention to any of your points, legitimate or not, because I'm being overwhelmed by the argumentative, belittling way you come across. Because you "know numbers" shouldn't signify that you are "better" than anyone else, and although I doubt you really think you are, that's how you come across.
Makes it hard to hold a normal conversation/debate with someone like that, because my automatic reaction is to just either argue back, get defensive, provide the "flip-side" viewpoint (whether I agree with it or not), or all of the above. On top of that, putting words in my mouth, or constantly assuming you know what my intentions are (example: "promoting" human form), just further exasperates that.
"The One"
Your more passive agressive but just as annoying to me.
I don't care about your "Kheld cred". How long you have been playing them, how many set bonuses you have nor how awesome you look on video.
This all started "for me" when you made a vague claim that human form builds perform as well or nearly as well as Tri-Forms, a statement I believe to be wrong and showed why I believed it to be wrong. Not to stroke my own ego but because I believe such statements need to be verified so that new Khelds can make informed decisions on how to build if their desire is to make a numericaly superior build.
At that point you made a statement along the lines that my method of determining performance was flawed due to the possibility of playstyle factors.
Then I wanted to know what playstyles could do to overcome such a large numerical difference if both players were equally skilled on the two types of builds.
Then things changed to what people enjoy and that I was rude and obnoxious because I was berrating people for playstyle (something I do not believe I actually did unless you concider bringing up alternate opinions and statistics to provide evidence of my views as berrating).
Then several threads later you informed people that when things get really tough you switch to an IO'ed Tri-Form build, and that you were playing Human only as a form of a chalange build. Which I thought interesting since your original claim was human only did the same job as Tri-Form well enough that neither was superior to the other.
So honestly, which is it? For the knowledge of the people new to Kheldians, If you had to select one build only to cover all situations what would it be?
My beligerant attitude and snarky manner all stemmed from the inability to provide this simple answer to the people interested in starting their first Kheldian with the intent to be as good as they can be.
I have no problem with people not playing to the max, I have no problem with people making concept toons, I have a BIG problem with an entire forum being unable to add honestly and truthfully that human form is fine but you will be at a slight (or not so slight depending on build) statistical disadvantage in playing Human Only, assuming they take equal time to master both types of playstyle. And in my experience this disclaimer is almost never added into posts answering the "what way do I build my Kheldian" questions when the advice given is to go human. -
Quote:I'm starting to like this guy.Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Almost as much fun as the blatant and intentional hyperbole in my first statement, there.
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Quote:I was unaware they used this on any powers but I do not know all the mechanics for the powers. If it's doable more power to them if they decide to use the idea. I simply do not like the idea on it's base concept.Originally Posted by LordXenite
I rather think they'd like to implement it the way PrincessDarkstar described, if they even choose to implement it at all.
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Quote:I'm basing this on how the game currently works.. which I find to be a good way to measure how things work. I suppose they could allow the heal to heal the PB more than the people getting the aoe effect, but I think thats more work than the dev might be interested in spending to make the PB more like another AT.Originally Posted by LordXenite
You know... for several years we've been told that the Kheldian inherent powers were not going to affect the forms (game-design concepts/game-engine), and yet that was done. We were told power-customization (at least color wise) was too complex, and that's coming too. So, you're basing your nay-saying on what exactly? game-design theory, or game-engine limitations?
The most likely way it would happen is one of the two ways I posted abouve. -
I had to check this before posting but I was right, the -20% recharge debuff on a well slotted Dwarf Mire could keep a consistant -40% recharge on tanked mobs allowing the WS to avoid needing to shake off enemies for even a second.
And I KNOW how much you guys love alternative methods to reach the same destination.. -
Well, not "everyone" but close enough for par.
Most sets get it with a few exceptions and Kheldians,SoA's, and I believe Mastermind Primary totaly out of the picture. -
As i have stated before I do not get into debates much less argue fun. It's pointless.
I do not hate the tanking human form as I believe I suggested it's use to ACTUALLY tank mobs and not just run around letting a lower threat rating and at best moderate damage agro everything as without either a taunt aura or taunt you cannot actually hold agro to yourself and off others unless your actually the most damaging person on the team.
My interest in your post was that it seems there are situations where even you are willing to admit the forms are useful in some situations that a pure human build is as you say "practicly useless".
I have never been in a situation with my Tri-Form where I have felt I should change builds to a human only one because my present build will not be up to the task.
I had no doubt you had at least one Tri-Form Build because your well versed enough in the numbers to know that situations exist where human only will be an excersise in frustration.
And this is why I continue to advise people to go with the forms.
I do have no problems with dual builds, but I find the promotion of human form only while keeping a Tri-Form build in storage for when the rubber meets the road to be a bit..misleading. -
Quote:You say this as if it is fact and not your own speculation.Originally Posted by AlienOne
Except if you do that, they won't remember what power you suggested, they'll just remember the nasty attitude in which you said it... Which, I guess, might also be what you want.
"The One"
I stated my intent only. You are attempting to state what will happen.
You might be right or you might be wrong, but I don't phrase things in any manner but my own and for people argueing so strongly about allowing each person their own ways I find this strangely ironic.