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Quote:Eh, if you heavily emphasize the word situational, then I agree. The problem with recovery buffs is that they tend to encourage all-or-nothing build strategy. Though it's true that infinite endurance sustainability is rare, it's also rarely necessarily or even desirable in practice. Being endurance stable is, I think, a far lower standard, especially for Blasters, whose single-target attacks are generally very endurance efficient.IMO it works quite well as a situational recovery buff. Very few builds are endurance stable, and sometimes you just need that endurance bar up. Also, instant nuke recovery with Drain Psyche is not amazing, but it is nice being able to attack right after I nuke.
Basically all I'm trying to say here is that you should try, if possible, to give your build generally good-enough recovery without Drain Psyche. If you wanna use the recovery buff in an odd situation, then go for it; just don't build around the recovery buff, because there's really no other good reason to use Drain Psyche every time it's available.
The nuke thing is a very minor point, IMO, overrated on this forum. You can use Drain Psyche to get around the recovery debuff, but it's somewhat awkward to do (basically requiring that you hit DP before you nuke) and by no means foolproof. Assuming you hit all ten targets and assuming you enhance the power for heal instead of recovery (which you should do), DP alone will only nullify 3/4ths of the nuke's debuff. You have to have another +150% in recovery from other sources to get on the positive side of zero, which is -- oddly enough -- another argument in favor of not putting all your recovery eggs in the Drain Psyche basket. -
Quote:Yes. Drain Psyche is significantly stronger on a Dom, both by itself and in combination with Dominators' other powers. It's still good on a Blaster, but it can tempt you to make sub-optimal build and combat decisions.The dominator version is stronger and it's a lot safer to use to get the full benefit on a dom.
Choice of primary also, obviously, influences the conversation. I think a lot of people (including myself) have a bit of an under-estimated view of Drain Psyche because we've paired it with Fire Blast. When you really think about it, almost every other Blaster Primary has a good deal more mitigation, and it doesn't take a whole hell of a lot of layering mitigation to make all the difference for a high-order regeneration buff. Anything that slows the rate of incoming damage even the slightest bit can be the difference between death and functional immortality.
Both Drain Psyche and World of Confusion benefit so much from high-end IO bonuses that they're scarcely recognizable. Adding DEF bonuses has an obvious effect on the former; adding the Coercive Persuasion proc to WoC turns a terrible power into a very potent melee-range control power in crowds -- and that melee-range control power just happens to make Drain Psyche more effective, too.
In any case, Drain Psyche definitely needs slots. It's gonna suck at 20; it's gonna get much better as soon as you can six slot it. It's gonna get much much much better if and when you can pair it with IO DEF bonuses. As a regen buff, it's rarely going to be worthwhile against fewer than three targets.
So with all of that said, it's dangerous to build around Drain Psyche's recovery buff. It's a nice perk, but you don't want to pigeon-hole a Blaster build into closing into melee unnecessarily as a matter of course. It's not like Mental Manipulation is particularly good for Blappers; Psychic Shockwave is nice, and Mind Probe is passable, but you're generally not going to see a signficant increase to your kill speed by playing a Mental Blapper. There's a reason Mental comes packaged with a long-range cone attack (Psychic Scream).
Drain Psyche is best used as a situational survivability buff, and/or a situational regeneration debuff. On teams, you're probably best off ignoring the power almost completely, melting spawns from range with Primary attacks and Scream. -
FWIW, I use CPUID Hardware Monitor. It's become indispensible for laptop gaming, always on in the background.
YMMV. My laptop has (as I understand it) a hot-running GPU (nVidia 8800M GTX). Dunno if newer cards use less heat; I'm betting they do.
Also to be taken with a grain of salt: My cheapo cooling pad does markedly lower temps (by about 5 degrees Celcius). The downside is that running the extra fans on the cooling pad seems to clog up my computer's vents with dust faster. Then again, I'm a smoker, and I have a veritable menagerie of pets (2 dogs, 3 cats), so my dust situation may be worse than yours.
The value of the occasional fan/vent cleanup can't be overstated. -
Quote:It's a matter of semantics, then. I don't consider my Team 2 example to be less than a "high-end team" in the grand scheme of things. Generally, I consider anything with that amount of buff/debuff to be in the very upper echelon of possible team compositions. You may not personally wish to run that team. Hell, ideally, I'd want to tweak it too just to account for user error -- but at the end of the day what matters is that team is capable of doing crazy things, in principle.So long story short, yes, tanks can be useful, I never said they aren't. Usually on my teams though, again I iterate, I am only speaking of teams that I usually put together, they are not particularly a +, at best, they're not much of a -. Which brings me back to my point, would I take a tank on a high end team? Naah.
Quote:I do suppose I did go overboard with the "tanks are just crutches" statement, that could have been phrased better. I also admitted that after doing more analysis 'after' reading people's viewpoints on this thread, I did admit that I was wrong about the 'amount' that a tank would hurt the damage of said team.
(Also, as an aside -- the last time I checked, anyone with Hover and a means of holding Recluse's attention can tank him. Poor AI FTW.) -
Quote:Yes, with a minor quibble: Rains are just pseudo pets with an very wide-area damage aura that ticks every 0.2 seconds. Or so I understand. Blazing Aura would be no less broken if it ticked ten times faster than it does now. (Or would have been no less broken, before today.)Neither: It procs on every damage tick.
Sleet has about 70-tics.
Now, this is mitigated somewhat by the fact that eg. Reactive only stacks five times, but that's still pretty bad.
Note that regular DOT's doesen't do this: Rains actually make multiple attacks, and that's why they (pre-fix) procced a lot.
The debuff duration is a discrete, secondary effect of the aura. It just happens to have a duration that (at least on paper, see previous post about the bug) outlasts the pet by 15 seconds. The debuff's duration had nothing to do with Reactive before today's patch, and has nothing to do with Reactive (or any proc) after today's patch.
The fact that Reactive only stacks to 5 was basically irrelevant because fully stacked Reactive is really effing strong, delivering something like 5 * 50 damage over a handful of seconds. As you can imagine, a full 15+ seconds of fully saturated Reactive (3-4 cycles of fully stacked DoT @ ~250 damage apiece) is plenty enough to turn any old Rain power into a quasi-nuke. (A level 50 minion only has about 430 hitpoints. A level 50 Lieutenant only has about 850 hitpoints.)
The intention was pretty clearly that a single player, even one with really fast attacks and the Tier 4 proc, would find it nearly impossible to stack Reactive to the limit consistently, and very hard to stack Reactive much at all in an AoE. As it is, a single application of Reactive is a pretty nice boost to a given attack, and FWIW, I prefer it stays that way. (Edit: To clarify, what I prefer is a stronger DoT that's very hard to stack, as opposed to a weaker DoT that's much easier to stack. Before today's patch, what we had was the strength of the former, and for some few builds, more than the ease-of-stackability of the latter.) -
Quote:It's a fair assumption in principle. It's just that the number you chose to represent that assumption is arbitrary.I've counted lower numbers for debuffers and kins to account for the fact that for quite a bit of their time will be spent on casting debuffs/buffs. Playing a kin, between casting SP and FS over and over again, it leaves very little time for actually doing damage attacks. On my cold/sonic and ill/cold, my attacks are usually, sleet, benumb, heat-loss, 2-3 damage attacks, sleet, damage attacks. Most of the time, I don't even get to casting sleet the second time since the AV is dead already.
As I also mentioned, debuffers stay out of Melee and AoE range of the AV's, which often precludes them from FS/SP.
And as Arcana notes, you make no distinction among different builds, which is understandable, but by the same token you haven't proven anything. The very premise on which the bulk of your assumptions are derived -- that survivability can never be an issue before the Tank's inclusion -- is designed (intentionally or not) to marginalize Tankers.
I believe it's fair to say that a really high-end, heavy buff/debuff team will have survivability well under control for the vast bulk of the game's content. I believe it's fair to say that such a team, generally, doesn't benefit much from adding a Tank, and will probably even lose some sliver of efficiency in the deal. Again, through most content.
I don't believe it's fair to say that all high-end teams are necessarily degraded by the inclusion of a Tanker, or that no high-end team can benefit more from a Tanker than from a hat-picked DPSer. I don't believe anyone here has argued (as you asserted in a previous post) that a Tanker would necessarily increase overall team speed, just that there are instances where a Tanker can increase overall team speed.
By this point, the starkness of your original statement (which may not have been fully intended) has degraded into a rather tepid position, over which it's hardly worth arguing. We're down to splitting hairs. All I will ask is that you consider the following two team loadouts; look at them and think about whether the one without the Tanker is necessarily better-suited to run something like, say, the Lord Recluse Strike Force in a good time.
Team 1
2 Kinetics Defenders
2 Storm/Sonic Defenders
1 Rad Defender
1 Fire Blaster
2 SR Scrappers
Team 2
2 Kinetics Defenders
2 Storm/Sonic Defenders
1 Rad Defender
1 Fire Blaster
1 SR Scrapper
1 INV/SS Tanker
Both teams satisfy the general offensive requirements of your calculations. Neither one has a whole lot of buff/debuff-derived mitigation that translates well to a fight against multiple level 53 AVs. The task is certainly possible for both teams, even easy depending on the specifics of each build and the skill of the players -- but one team has a distinct, and potentially very important, advantage. The other just has imperceptibly more damage.
Team 2 might actually finish off the Phalanx faster because it has an easier time bunching them together. -
Quote:Eh, I think your first reaction was more or less appropriate. Sleet can be double-stacked, but it takes awhile to get there -- and there is (or was, last I checked) a bug with the power that ends the duration of the debuff upon the rain's end if the target is still in the area.That's an alarming assumption. There aren't a lot of things that could reliably hit -60% res, are there? I'd think the effort to maintain that would require some pretty specific builds and/or reduce the debuffer's damage contribution.
EDIT: I see that I was mis-remembering Sleet's stats. Huh.
Heat Loss can be used by Cold characters to stack another -30% RES, but that debuff is only available about 1/3rd of the time, best-case.
Then you've got Storm, which has a Sleet analogue and no other -RES. And Radiation, which can't double-stack Enervating Field. Then you've got Dark, which can double-stack Tar Patch pretty easily, but again it takes awhile to get there. Then you have Empathy, Force Field, and Kinetics, which have no -RES at all.
Pain Domination can (AFAIK) only stack about -20% RES. Thermal can only stack about 22%. So you're left with Traps, Trick Arrow, and Sonic Resonance.
It's certainly not a stretch to argue that the ability to stack 60+% in RES debuffs in a gameplay-relevant length of time is comparatively rare. Then again, if you're cherry picking every team, it's also not a stretch to argue that the -RES debuffers you recruit will have that ability. -
Sleet has a 15 second duration. The debuff lasts for 30 seconds, or at least it's supposed to do. The last time I checked, there was a rather persistent bug with Freezing Rain and Sleet that randomly cancels the debuff on the rain's end if the target is still in the area.
FWIW, on the subject, I have always disliked the 10s-per-proc standard. I think limiting the proc rate of auras/pseudo-pets is a fine idea in principle, but once per 10s seems like too low a limit. That objection is almost purely subjective, though; I have no good numerical argument for any particular value below 10s. Any change I'd suggest would be arbitrary.
Edit:
Quote:Maybe 5s for short duration/short radius/low target cap powers (Burn, Damage Auras)
10s for long duration/large radius/high target cap powers (RoF, Sleet, Hot Feet) -
Quote:Yeah, I think F2P gets a bad rap to some degree because the model is so new, and therefore it tends to attract previously subscription-based games that are desperate for something, anything, to improve their situation.Pointing at the example you just did doesn't help your case at all because my understanding is they were "less" of a failure using F2P than they were using subscription. At the end of the day failing is failing, but...
They fail because they were failing regardless.
There does seem to be a loose consensus among MMO players that the conversion to F2P spells doom, because it often does spell doom. But that's little more than a widespread post hoc fallacy; there's no clear evidence that the conversion to F2P is the direct cause of failure in most cases.
Whatever your opinion on the merits of the F2P model, changing mid-stream from subscription to F2P is a big deal; it does represent a large risk. Publishers are understandably reluctant to take that risk when they have any choice at all in the matter. The trick is in the timing and in the execution.
As far as CoH goes, it already has a kinda-sorta, quasi-F2P model. We have trial accounts that can get a taste for the game and (in theory) improve low-level population volume. We have Booster Packs. We have a (minor) population divider in Going Rogue. It isn't a stretch to think that CoH could move farther down the F2P path, either incrementally or in one big go. It isn't a stretch to think that such a move could be successful.
FWIW, I think it's gonna happen eventually no matter what we say. Hopefully it'll be done right. Hopefully the game will survive in one form or another for years and years to come. -
@slainsteel: Fair enough about the math. Thank you for the clarification.
Quote:To be clear: I'm not questioning your personal decision to code a program to resolve these calculations. You're obviously entitled to do with your time what you wish, and as you say you were working towards a far more complex operation than what you ended up with in this thread.I am pretty certain I didn't get a PM from you asking me for my code?
I spent 2 hours on it because it's been written to be extendable to my final algorithm for it, which automatically tries out every type of toon in all numbers to brute force an optimal team composition. I am not completely sure if you get this part though, considering your insistence that because I didn't post 2 pages of data, my data cannot be correct (my previous posts shows, using your calculations, that my data is correct - you just read it wrong, albeit probably because I didn't clarify that I wasn't counting kins as debuffers).
And this is why it is complex, so I don't have to do the calculations you just did, over and over by hand to find the maximum DPS; the fact that we should have 2 kins and 3 brutes and 3 debuffers for the optimal team didn't require me to calculate everyone's damage, final resistance, total dps, over and over and over again. And I can't run a NP-complete algorithm in a spread sheet macro, it would take hours to get through just one run.
All I'm saying is that the calculations are not so difficult in principle that they can't be explained, or summarized with an example -- like the one you provided in a subsequent reply to me. A 10 year-old math student could do the long-hand calc in my post (probably faster than I can, these days). Invoking the complexity of the program (perhaps unintentionally) glosses over the simplicity of the math, and frankly, the inherently arbitrary and simplistic assumptions on which the math is based.
Numbers that simple, used in a public forum, should not be justifiable only in private. And just for the record, it would have taken me far less than two hours to work through those 12 calculations even by hand. Let's not get too pompous about efficiency.
Quote:I think you are having a very hard time coming to terms with the fact that teams can run without having to worry about 'anyone's' survivability. Maybe you haven't been on such teams?
So I've admitted clearly that I was wrong about how much DPS we lose with a tank, but I was correct about the fact that on debuffer heavy teams, we do still always lose it, so yes, the margin is indeed small.
But I am not sure what it is with you; first you attacked me for poor maths, then poor logic, now you're attacking the premise I started with? I don't get it, are you just desperate to prove me wrong?
What you're doing is no secret. It's also not so unreservedly fool-proof as you've implied in this thread. I suspect you understand that, because you mentioned running a Stone Tank through the first few runs of the Incarnate Trials.
If you wanna speed run TFs with cherry-picked team, presumably at +0, then that's great. More power to you. But there are situations -- perhaps very rare situations, but they do exist -- wherein a squishy-heavy team, even buffed to the gills, can be vulnerable. What a Tanker can bring to a absurdly high-end team is a redundancy that is arguably much more valuable in practice than the miniscule DPS advantage another DPSer would. Over-kill is going to be the rule rather than the exception in such a team, regardless.
There are no hard and fast rules. You prefer bringing an Illusion controller to provide that redundancy; that's fine, but who's to say that you couldn't achieve the same level of team offense by replacing the Illusion by a higher-DPS buff/debuff build*, and a Scrapper with a Tanker? Your calculations certainly can't, because they treat all broad categories of build as monolithic, unvaried.
And even if we accept your numbers at face value -- ignoring that we can change them drastically with a plausible reinterpretation of the underlying assumptions -- they really don't make a strong case.
My pointing all of that out (and more) doesn't make me desperate to prove you wrong. Actually, you've done at least a good a job of disproving your own initial position wrong as I have.
[* - Illusion's pets are nice, but they're largely unfocusable, and Illusion doesn't have a whole lot of AoE, nor any reliable means of setting up Containment against a hard target, on its own. Ill/Cold and Ill/Rad are widely reputed to be perhaps the two most uber character builds in the entire game, and with good reason, but that reason has more to do with their solo capability and their flexibility in team play, rather than any particular advantage in an otherwise ideal team.] -
Mental Manipulation. Notable for its enhancable regeneration debuff (Drain Psyche). If you have a build that soft-caps DEF, then a */mental Blaster should solo some GMs rather easily.
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Just wanted to take a moment to thank you for all you do around here, Xmas.
Good stuff as always. -
Quote:Yup. He also goes on to say in his second post that the lack of challenge in the I-20 game makes him less and less enthusiastic about logging on. Take from that what you will, but it's not reasonable to argue that all of the responses ostensibly directed at the thread's title are entirely irrelevant.I did. My point was that he's not awesome. Many folks have posted those times BEFORE incarnates. Incarnates didn't do anything that was already possible with Purples.
Perhaps next time the OP could avoid using the word Overpowered.
If my respsonse bothers you, why bother posting/reading/etc?
EDIT: Also he states this in the 2nd sentence of the post:
It's surprising how absolutely over-powered toons have become with the Incarnate abilities. We ran a set of Speed MO TF's, these were the times we got. -
Quote:The entire point of the 2 hours of coding I put in was to get real data of can tanks actually be more helpful on a team versus DPS'ers, or not.Quote:
BTW, this is mostly in response to Archana's post, in which she mentioned that the AV fights were the bottlenecks; this is simply to prove that on optimal teams, even for AV fights, tanks hurt, even if by a very small amount. They don't actually 'help'.
Either way, you ought to be able to articulate what you did without resorting to the lame excuse that your code is too complex to share on the forum. Your two hours spent coding a program from scratch don't even appear to be justified by the rigor of the calculations; your stated assumptions lead to grade-school math that could more easily be done in a spreadsheet or even by hand. Like it or not, your insistence that your numbers are somehow simultaneously inexplicable and unassailable only reinforces the impression that you're an albeit competent person with a vastly inflated sense of the difficulty of the tasks he performs.
Quote:Completely survivable teams has been an assumption from the start. If we challenge that, then we're no longer in the realm of 'dream teams'. -
Quote:I wrote a program some time ago to try to brute force the ideal team composition for the maximum dps run (of course, assuming team survivability not being an issue). I never implemented the brute force algo since, well, I was lazy
but I modified it to include calculations for a tank (ignoring the purple patch for bruising of course).
[snip]
So these are the findings,
With 2 kins, on a only scrappers or brutes for dps team (for the purposes of my program, I took only one type at a time), assuming you have 60% resistance debuffers (/colds, /sonics and some toons with sonic attack can all manage that), the ideal number of debuffers seems to be 3.
[snip]
This data is for a +4 enemy (with no resistance) with all team members at 50+1. Other assumptions are that the debuffers will do about 60% of the base damage of the dps toons and the kins will do about 40% base of the dps toons. Damage caps are set to 300% for the kins and debuffers (even if they're corr's, I am assuming lower numbers for them since they won't necessarily be in range for every single FS). Of course as I mentioned earlier, the assumption for debuff would be a stacked of -60% per debuffer.
I've placed the tank's base dps a bit higher than the brute's but lower than the scrapper's.Quote:Without a tank and with 4 debuffer(s), total DPS is 2310
With a tank and with 4 debuffer(s), total DPS is 2191
The specific DPS numbers aren't important. The relationships are all that matter.
DPS toon (Scrapper) = 100 base DPS (capped at 500, 500% of original)
Kinetics toon = 40 base DPS (capped at 120, 300% of original)
Generic debuff = 60 base DPS (capped at 180, 300% of original)
Tanker = 66.6 base DPS (capped at 266.4, 400% of original)
(A Tanker's base damage is 2/3rds of a Scrapper's, by slainsteel's own acknowledgement here in this very thread. Regardless of how you weight crits, that's a fair approximation.)
Opponent is +3 relative to player characters, so all offensive powers except for Bruising are 65% effective. With all of that out of the way, let's try to work out the above-quoted comparison:
4 de/buffers (2 of them Kins) and 4 Scrappers: ((2 * 120) + (2 * 180) + (4 * 500)) * 0.65 = 1690 DPS w/o resistance debuffs.
1690 * (1 + (1.2 debuff * 0.65 purple patch)) = 3008.2 DPS
4 de/buffers (2 of them kins), 3 Scrappers, and 1 Tanker: ((2 * 120) + (2 * 180) + (3 * 500) + (266.4)) * 0.65 = 1538.16 DPS w/o resistance debuffs
1538.16 * (1 + (1.2 debuff * 0.65 purple patch) + 0.2 Bruising) = 3045.55 DPS
So using the same apparent methodology that landed you at a 5.4% advantage for the non-Tanker team (2310 / 2191 = 1.054), I've ended up with a 1.2% advantage for the Tanker team (3045.55 / 3008.2 = 1.012).
Strange.
Anyway, your numbers are only data to the extent that the assumptions are valid, which isn't a given. Personally, i think your assumptions are good enough for an on-paper analysis like this one, but analyses like this one are implicitly over-simplified. The bottom line in this case is that even if your numbers are right, they only tend to demonstrate just how miniscule the differences we're discussing are even in the abstract.
I don't believe that was the conclusion you set out to prove. In practice, it's hard to imagine that such low margins of disparity would be noticeable, much less materially relevant to most any team's (whether low-end or high-end) performance. -
Quote:Yeah, and even hardcore marketeers (I think) generally compartmentalize their activities; a handful of alts might be dedicated to playing the market, while active combat/leveling characters probably just sell their own drops, only bothering to craft the most obviously profitable recipes.The point I am trying to make is that every time an experienced marketeer says they make tons of Inf with little effort, they are telling the truth - but only because they have already put in the effort of doing the necessary market research to find which IOs have the biggest gaps between crafted and uncafted, and the fastest turnarounds. This is not something that someone new to the market will instinctively know, or be able to find out easily. This is a skill that takes time to learn, and that some people don't feel like putting in the effort to do.
There is, in short, no firm basis to say that any market slot that's tied up with salvage listings would otherwise have a more profitable crafed IO in it. Crafting recipes indiscriminately can, in fact, lose you money, to say nothing of the added inconvenience.
As a means of playing the market, selling salvage is sub-optimal, but I think MrLiberty took his argument about three steps too far. It is not always silly to list salvage for more than 1 inf. An active toon selling her drops at the market only needs to take an extra couple of seconds to scan the last five, and if it shows a high going rate, type out a value arbitrarily higher than 1 inf to avoid being lowballed.
If the listing price is in the sweet spot, then that salvage generally won't tie up market slots for any gameplay-relevant length of time. There's a difference between farming for dirt, as Liberty puts it, and making quick, common-sense decisions that might nets you an extra few thousand influence here and there for items that you were going to sell anyway. FWIW, I personally tend to bid very high for salvage when I'm outfitting my characters because I can't be bothered to wait. I generally don't list non-rare salvage for more than 1 inf either, but if something's going for 500k, you betcha I'm gonna list for at least 25k.
If that 500k is a trival sum, which it is in the grand scheme, then losing the market fee on a 25k listing sure as hell doesn't matter. -
Quote:Yes, it's silly to dismiss the point of view of someone who's got a recent registration date. Some of the best players I know are newish. Some of the most long-time vets I know haven't registered on the forums. Hell, I don't even claim to be a great player; I spend a lot of time and effort tweaking builds so I don't have to be a great player to carry a team.steel:I could care less what your reg date is, and I'm willing to take your word for the claimed speed run times......but(come on you had to see that but coming)
That said, it is also silly to assume that people with old registration dates are incompetent, which is essentially what slainsteel did. He comes into the Tanker forum, seven years after the game's launch, and announces, as if to proclaim a new and great discovery, that force multipliers are the key to the team game.
Well, no sheet sherlock.
What he fails to understand (or at the least, acknowledge) is that after a certain point, a team's force multiplication capability makes the rest of the team's composition almost irrelevant. Even if it's true in theory that a Tanker is less effective than a Scrapper on a given high-end team, the difference in practical terms is miniscule, potentially less important than a player's disk speed, certainly less important than the particular builds in question, and the individual players' skill (and/or familiarity with the content).
slainsteel all but acknowledged that, but still he soldiered on with his transparent bid for controversy. Contrary to his recent martyr act, it was he who opened up with the first attacks on other people's competence.
FWIW, I don't care how slainsteel plays. I'm sure his teams work quite well -- never questioned that they do, in fact. I am, however, forced to question the depth of his expertise, if he truly believes that there's one true way to build a high-end team. You don't need Illusion Controllers; in fact, if you don't have a Controller with Illusion as a primary, one of the more obvious substitutions to make, even at the bleeding edge, is a Tanker instead of a generic DPSer. (That can actually work to your net favor too, if the Controller in question has a higher-damage primary, like Fire, or if you replace the Controller entirely with, say, a Cold/Sonic Defender).
There are, in short, many ways to skin a cat. The mark of skill and experience generally isn't to repeat by rote one tried-and-true method; on the contrary, what skill and experience give you is the ability to adjust. For a lot of veteran players, I suspect the adjustment is more fun than simply running roughshod over easy content again and again with approximately the same team composition.
So there may well be a disconnect between a lot of forum posters and slainsteel, with respect to his preferred playstyle. That doesn't mean that those posters don't understand the mechanics, though, or that they don't know how to play. In my experience, the people who understand the mechanics best are actually people who don't run in cherry-picked teams as a rule, people who like to solo or PuG, and therefore desire to make builds that can handle as many situations as possible. Achieving that goal requires lots of build tweaking, lots of calculation, lots of insight. Throwing together half a dozen buff/debuff builds and a coupla token DPS toons really doesn't.
As far as in-game accomplishments go, I'll take Nihilii's 57-minute solo MoITF over slainsteel's [insert time here] 8-man MoITF any day of the week. But wait, Nihilii is a total n00b, amirite? -
Missed these gems:
Quote:e.) It's not about you not wanting to run like our teams, it is about you not being capable of running like our teams. Hell, you'd probably be out on your *** in no time if someone even gave you an invite to our groupQuote:Have you actually played those toons? You're really starting to sound like someone who doesn't know what they're talking about.
Furthermore, if you don't run on speed teams regularly, you really do not have any real data to comment on this subject. -
That much is obvious. You've been all over the place. Your first post (quoted below for reference) in this Tanker thread was clearly aimed at controversy. Ever since, you've been wriggling this way and that, back-pedaling furiously while at the same time tossing potshots at any who disagree with you.
First, you say that Tankers are crutches for weak or middling teams, a waste in high-end teams.
Then you say it's absolutely key that we compare Scrappers and Tankers at the damage cap. When those numbers turn out poorly for you, you emphasize the importance of a Scrapper's ability to solo a Cyst, but you still assume he's at the damage cap. Then you admit that the biggest bottleneck to your speed is travel/loading time, which has nothing to do with AT/build selection. Then you admit that Tankers only lose you about 10% of your speed.
So by your own logic, a player's computer hardware is more important than whether he plays a Scrapper or a Tanker. By your own logic, a so-called high-end team cannot be even the slightest bit slower than record breaking, which is unreasonable on its face. A high-end team must have Illusion Controllers too, apparently.
No one will tell you that your preferred play style is wrong, or that you should bring a Tanker if you don't want one. But it's implausible for you to argue not only that a Tanker's comparatively insignificant offensive disadvantage severely impairs a high-end team, but also that it is impossible for any team with a Tanker on it to match your times. As others have pointed out, the offensive comparison between Tankers and others isn't static; it varies dramatically based on power set selection and IO investment.
I say it's implausible based on your own numbers, your own self-conflicted logic, your own tortuously circuitous thought processes. If you wanna back out now on the basis that you feel a high-end team runs an STF in 28 minutes, and a low-end team runs it in 30, then be my guest. But you know and I know and everyone else knows that that wasn't your original premise. I don't even think you really believed your original premise. Your purpose was, as someone else recently observed, antagonistic.
Quote:Does this mean I'd start taking tanks on my teams now by choice versus illusion trolls or -resistance debuffers? Uh, no. A tank is still the same thing; a crutch for weak to moderate teams to avoid aggro - it still doesn't help dps as much as a scrapper or brute (assuming the same incarnate level/abilities) -
Gatecrasher's too kind.
I hope he won't mind my reposting something from a PM I sent to him. Reading his comments in this thread, it struck me that others might like to know how to make a bind that automatically switches between Hasten and Domination.
Quote:So anyway, this is what I do, FWIW:
- Set up a folder somewhere, or designate an existing folder. Mine is 'C:\coh'. just for simplicity's sake.
- Inside the folder, create two text documents, named however you please. Mine are 'dom1.txt' and 'dom2.txt'. I actually also have dom3 and dom4, but those are gravy. More on that in a second.
- Open dom1.txt, and paste the following (changing filenames/paths as appropriate):
w "+forward$$powexec_auto Hasten$$bind_load_file c:\coh\dom2.txt"
- Save and close dom1.txt.
- Open dom2.txt and paste the following:
w "+forward$$powexec_auto Domination$$bind_load_file c:\coh\dom1.txt"
- Save and close dom2.txt
- Inside the game, type the following into your chat box:
/bind_load_file c:\coh\dom1.txt
Now, every time you press the W key to move forward, your auto-toggle will switch between Hasten and Domination. You can, of course, sub in any key of your choice for W; you can attach that same auto-toggle switch to almost any action you take. In my case, I decided that forward wasn't enough, so I added dom3.txt and dom4.txt to switc my auto-toggle every time I press A go move left too.
It ain't a perfect solution, but I find it helps. Hopefully you'll feel the same way. -
Quote:Tam speaks truth.Scratching my head, trying to come up with what was hard before incarnate stuff. Not sure why shaving off a little time from lvl 45+ tf/sfs is considered game breaking.
I wonder how many people complaining that the game is suddenly a cake walk are running at +0? The game has been trivially easy for quite some time for anyone who made any effort to maximize their build, but the content is still varied enough to slow you down at higher difficulties, especially solo.
Reactive rain powers are throwing the balance off a quite a bit, but meh. I ran +4 Barracuda a coupla weeks ago; that took awhile, even with all of the other goodies. (Before Reactive rains hit the scene, to be clear; those would have made the +4 ambushes a lot easier, but +4 Reichsman would still have been a hilarious bag of HP.)
People like slainsteel are obviously entitled to their preferences; I would never tell him how to play, and in fact I admire some of the times he's posted for speed runs -- but it strikes me as a little disingenuous to admit on the one hand that you've gone out of your way to trivialize the game and then on the other that you've succeeded too well. It's a self-serving argument, though I'm sure slain didn't intend it to be.
Me? I'll just continue to run in semi-PuGs on little old Triumph. Having a ball. -
Quote:Bluntly, no one cares what you -- slainsteel, specifically -- choose to do with your high-end teams. Your logic here is circular: "Why would I want a Tanker on a team that already has a Tanker's greatest strengths covered?" The answer is that you wouldn't, but not every team has invincible Illusion pets coming out of its ears. Believe it or not, there are even high-end teams that might actually want to have a meatshield for certain encounters.Lastly, looking at all the factors, *why* would I want to bring a tank on a high end team? We definitely don't need one on our teams. At best, it won't be a noticeable negative impact.
I have yet to see a reason to actually bring a tank on a team which has no issues with survivability (particularly post i20); which is the basic logic behind my original statement, "I still wouldn't take a tank on my teams".
(The Freedom Phalanx in the LRSF is perhaps the best example in non-Incarnate content; even with 8 buff/debuff sets, support characters can still be two-shotted in that scenario if they're not careful).
All you've managed to demonstrate is that your teams don't need or even want Tankers, or Scrappers, or Brutes, or Blasters, or really anything that isn't a debuff build. That's fine. It's not a particularly interesting observation, though. The game was, I'm grateful to say, designed not to enforce rigid team roles. Of the above list, I'd still say that Tankers are the most generally appealing to teams of all shapes and sizes. You haven't even really tried to make a plausible argument to move me from that estimate. -
Quote:Patronizing much? You're making my argument for me, which is that in the so-called high-end teams you run, the only time that the offensive contribution of one Scrapper/Brute/Blaster even arguably matters is against AVs/GMs.It looks like that you and I play the game at very different levels.
The point is not that the Tanker has the overall damage potential of a Scrapper. The point is that in the situations you describe, the Tanker's disadvantage against trash mobs would be unnoticeable, and the Tanker's resistance debuff is arguably a net advantage against non-trash mobs.
You can't have it both ways. You can't put on your my-teams-are-so-much-more-uber-than-you've-ever-seen hat, while at the same time twirling your one-team-member's-offense-matters-oh-so-very-much mustache. All I'm saying is that if your standard is an Illusion/Rad Controller in super-duper-stacking-debuff team, then just about any individual build is gonna pale by comparison. It was just odd to me that you would single out Tankers, which are perhaps the singular melee AT most well-suited to complement otherwise squishy-heavy teams.
Arcanaville said it better than I have, though, so let me recap:
Quote:In any case, its unlikely any team of any strength, and ironically especially very strong ones, could detect the difference between a single tanker and a single scrapper in normal play. The difference would be less than ten percent, and probably 5% or less most of the time. And it is mathematically possible that the tanker could increase total team damage by more than a comparable scrapper in situations where the team is focused on less targets at one time, particularly in situations such as the LRSF and the STF archvillain fights.Quote:My own logical argument would be: in the speed runs you're talking about, its *less* likely the tanker's offensive underperformance would be noticable because its precisely in those teams that offensive firepower tends to generate overkill which supersaturates the foes - in other words more and more damage is landing more deader and deader things. -
Quote:The why is less important than the how, I guess. AA isn't affected by Domination because Domination, itself, doesn't actually do anything to control effects. Each relevant control power is individually set to add a second, stacking control effect if Domination is active on the character.I see. I know my friend has a lvl 50 Ice/Earth and he put purple proc in it. So even with 10s rule, if one gets confused, it will "spread" out so it is still very good.
Blah, I don't remember why AA isn't affected by Domination. It's not a "pet".
Domination is just a flag, in other words. For whatever reason, AA wasn't set up to check for that flag. There's a small possibility that that's an oversight.
More likely, though, I think that the devs decided Arctic Air is too freely available in comparison with other wide-area control powers to benefit from Domination. Or it could be simply a quirk of the power's mechanics: because AA's confuse only has a 30% chance to fire, how exactly would you stack a second one top of that using the existing Domination mechanism? If you simply add a second 30% chance-to-fire Confuse, then AA will not benefit in the same way that other powers do from Domination.
Instead of increasing the magnitude of the control, a second Domination-prompted confuse effect would increase the probability of confused targets. (1-0.3)^2 = a 49% chance of mag 3, rather than a 30% of mag 6.
Actually yeah, the more I think about it, the more complicated that sounds from a balance perspective. Suffice to say that AA probably doesn't need to benefit from Domination. -
Quote:I don't question that there's some value in freebie players. In theory, yes -- the F2P model insulates paying customers against whatever gameplay problems might arise from low population volume. F2P also can attract new customers, either in full or in part (microtransactions).The value that such players add in F2P MMOs is population volume, which makes a real difference in those that have either wide-scale economies (which CoH doesn't) or large-scale conflicts (and CoH's League system isn't nearly in this category).
Bigger doesn't always mean better when it comes to gaming communities.
All of that is fine, but a fully paid customer is unquestionably more valuable than one who doesn't pay at all, on an individual level if not on a collective level. And that's what's tricky: you don't want to alienate your existing, paying customer base by seeming either to give too much away for free, or by restricting the free players so much that the paid customers effectivey can't play with them. Worse still is the prospect of making your paying customers feel like they're volunteer salesman.
And then there are the obvious concerns about introducing a segment of the playerbase that has no stake in the community. RMT spammers, griefers, etc. None of the above means F2P can't work, as I've already acknowledged*, but there are risks involved.
[* -- Hypothetically acknowledged, because we know that the possibility of other games on this plane of existence is about on par with the laughable prospect of a moon landing.]