NightshadeLegree

Positive vibes? Then people need to stick to praising the devs and not making asides about those who dare to regard them as not infallible. Not you, specifically, but there's been some of that in this 'positive' thread.

I like the game. I really do. I've spent more time on it than on any other MMO. Than on every other MMO combined. It's because I like the game (and by extension like the work the devs do on it) that I'll voice my concerns, and I'm sure that's true of all of the 'negative' posters of recent days.

I don't think the MMO genre is old enough yet to be able to speculate on the lifespan of these games. Yes, games have closed, but they were failing. CoH is still lively, and there are several even older MMOs that are still alive and kicking. That, and when MMOs do get sequels their success tends to be mixed, to say the least.

When I play the 1-20 game in Praetoria I often feel that I'm already playing 'CoH 2' since in so many ways it's a far more sophisticated experience. Sure, there's room for improvement still, but would we really want to swap out 7 years of content for a new game which would inevitably have less content and less depth but a somewhat improved engine?

If there is a CoH 2 in the works then NCSoft/Paragon Studios would have to be VERY careful about how and when it was announced, because it would cast a very big question mark over the long term future and continued development of CoH 1, unless it was a completely separate project by a brand new development team... and given that this is already the dominant superhero MMO, do they really want to compete with themselves?

They haven't been specific, but they will be going down the P2P route, and I'd be quite surprised if they didn't at least launch on the standard $15/month model. EA's long term goal has been stated as retaining a couple of hundred thousand subscribers, for ten years...

Snipped for space, but that's probably the best defence of the freemium model I've ever read. Sadly many titles seem to prefer to sell temp xp/loot/power boosts, which give no permanent benefit at all.

Everyone on the forums is loud. That's why they're here. Most every thread about I20 or incarnates or any other controversy degenerates into bickering between rival groups of people with 4 and 5 figure post counts. Two very small groups of people.

I'll be the first to admit that the forums are not likely to be an accurate representation of the mood of the community, but that cuts both ways as well. The only people who will know whether this is worth it or not will be the devs when they datamine to find out who's doing what.

I'd love to see those numbers. Not the numbers when it goes live, but the numbers in a year's time.

Agreed, but that cuts both ways. The Dev Defence Force (they know who they are) are at least as one sided in their defence of the new system as those who dislike it are in their criticisms.

Also, when "an increasing segment of the population" is reacting this strongly, that's usually a sign that there's a genuine cause for concern.

A lot of this comes back to development time. I'm pretty sure we were told that Going Rogue would see the start of the endgame system, but now it's been pushed back to I19, I20 and so on. If most of this had been released with GR I doubt we'd be seeing this reaction. As it is we're looking at 2012 for this to be 'finished', although endgame, by its nature and contrary to its name, is never really finished.

It's not whether they finish a stoyline, it's how they've chosen to do it.

People wanted an endgame. Fair enough. An endgame entirely comprised of Raids is... to me it feels like Going Rogue didn't pull in the new subscribers they were hoping for so after almost 7 years of doing their own thing they've decided to follow the "How to MMO - the WoW way" handbook. I hope that isn't the case, because it would smack of behind-the-scenes desperation, but it looks like it.

I wouldn't mind that so much, except CoH isn't exactly known for getting new content out quick, so if they focus on this enough to do it justice in the eyes of those who want an endgame then expanding the rest of the game is going to go on the back burner.

People put up with the last content drought because everyone knew they were working on Going Rogue. What's going to be their excuse this time? Because let's face it, if I21 is also focusing on Raids, and it will be, then we're looking at the end of this year, at the earliest, before we see any return to 'normality', unless this is the new normal, in which case I fear for the future of this game.

I can't believe I'm saying this, given my general dislike of TFs, but... /signed. That's actually quite a cool idea. Not as a replacement for the existing arcs, but as an alternative. Choice is always good.

I ran the heroside Midnighter arc a week or so ago. It's not bad, but there's an awful lot of runaround (typical for blueside, but surprising given it's relatively new content.) The redside arc is better, but it can be pretty hard going, depending on your AT and level range.

Star Wars: The Old Republic would beg to differ.

(Now if that doesn't do very very well then I agree, future mega-budget P2Ps will become an endangered species.)

I don't think the freemium market has settled down yet, and I think when it does we'll see some casualties. 3 years ago or so when I was exploring MMOs for the first time there were very few quality full 3D world freemium titles. That's no longer the case, and I doubt that there's enough microtransaction money to keep them all in the black.

No, because if I wanted to run repetitive Raids for concept-breaking loot I'd be playing WoW.

I like to enjoy new stuff as well. Ignoring incarnates means ignoring most of I19, most of I20 and who knows how much thereafter. I've been through the I14/I15/I16 content famine. I'm not eager to experience another.

Why bother? Occassional raiding results in slow progress toward the rewards, and the rewards are, for the first time in this game, the central reason to do this stuff.

I've done so before, I'll do so again. That's why I have 18 months of vet badges on a 30 month old account. Upcoming issues should make me want to renew, not quit. This one isn't doing that.

Yeah. If you want to read uncritical praise 24/7 stick to reading Golden Girl's posts.

The sad thing is, something I've come to realise during this latest round of discussion of the incarnate system, is I'm now looking at CoH the way I look at WoW. I enjoy levelling in WoW, but I've never touched their endgame raiding and never will. The game doesn't start at the level cap, for me, the game ends at the level cap. Same here, now.

My MMO subscriptions are justified by two things - a) is the game good? Yes it is, and b) does the game add new stuff, for 'free', that interests me? To which the answer, right now, is no.

It's not the first time, and no doubt won't be the last, but Incarnates have now eaten up 2 issues in a row (I19 and I20) and I can't imagine that it won't be a sizeable part of I21 and I22 at least.

You talk about time spent on PVP, or VEATS. That doesn't apply here - because neither of those got more than one issue of dev time. Hell, City of Villains only got I6 and I7 before the focus shifted back heroside. Yet now we're on two issues and counting of big team content that focuses on a single entirely linear storyline...

If I wanted that I'd pay for a single player game. Once.

Yes, and so is paying a monthly subscription while the devs lavish all their time and attention on an endgame you won't/can't play.

That's the problem with the "if you don't like it, just don't play it" argument - you're suggesting that people either turn a blind eye to the amount of dev time that the endgame is going to consume over the next half a year or more while continuing to pay for it, or quit. P2Ps should aim to have something for everyone on a reasonably regular basis, because issues aren't 'free' - they're paid for by our monthly subs. We're already being microtransacted for 90% of all new costume pieces, so is it really too much to ask for something that isn't endgame/team related in I20? Or to be concerned at the prospect of I21 being more raids? How about I22?

WoW's updates, other than the major paid for expansions, are all-endgame, all-the-time, but anyone who plays WoW knows that going in. That's never been the CoH model, and the prospect of multiple issues dedicated to more giant incarnate raids is one that's not going to go down well with some of the playerbase. Nor will they shut up about it, unless, like PVP, the argument dies down because the people who cared the most just said to hell with it and quit eventually.

I winced every time post-I14 I saw a bunch of patch notes with another huge list of AE changes/fixes/nerfs as god knows how much dev time was wasted trying to make that disaster viable. I hope the same doesn't happen with the Raid system, but sometimes I fear it will.

Strange. Sunstorm must really have it in for my lowbie Peacebringer, because he keeps sending him after Vahzilok (one reason why he's still a lowbie) The last time I ran a low level Warshade it was mostly Clockwork as I recall.

Vahzilok are also nasty because they have a mean tendency to spawn in larger than normal groups. Sure, the zombies have laughable perception, but if there's even one Reaper or Mortificator it's very hard not to pull a lot of them.

I'm cursed by concept then. I usually pick science origin for innately powered heroes, whereas gun users are natural or tech, and melee weapon users are usually natural or magic.

Sea Witch is definitely one of the hardest EBs in the first half of the Redside game, though to be fair Frostfire is no pushover and heroes encounter him even sooner. Praetoria is just all around hard. I enjoy the challenge, but I'm very leery of pushing up the diff in Prae, or even switching on bosses, which I usually do red or blue by level 10.

Yes, Science origin heroes (and Peacebringers) don't realise what they're letting themselves in for.

Come to think of it... are there any actual redside arcs about the Vahz? I've fought them on the streets of Cap Au Diable of course, but I don't recall any actual missions involving them. I think there's one from... The Radio, I think, but that's about it. Nothing in Mercy or Oakes, certainly.

I think of Sharkhead as a kind of trial by ordeal that Masterminds must go through before they reach level 26, get their final pet and become godly.

It was the glue guns that did for me in that tip mission. /Regen is an interesting set, but it's really dependant on click powers, and when your recharge gets floored... well... not good.

All that said, I will agree with Memphis Bill about the Vahzilok. Those guys are murderous for the level range they appear in, worse than just about anything redside, or goldside for that matter, which is saying something.

COH survived and prospered for almost 7 years with no endgame to speak of. I'd attribute a lot of the long term success of the game to the fact it's an altoholic's dream - sure, it's the same content, but it plays out very differently with different ATs or even just different power sets.

I think the game has a bright future ahead of it. We've now seen two newer, shinier MMOs enter the superhero genre and neither of them has really made a dent in COH's title as THE superhero MMO. If Paragon Studios/NCSoft weren't confident that COH had a future they wouldn't have released a major expansion last year, nor would they be embarking on adding endgame content now. They'd be talking about going F2P or the dread subject of server merges would be coming up. Neither of which is happening.

Okay, that's me being positive. Now for some DOOOM!

The main thing that worries me about the whole Incarnate thing is the possibility that the powers that be have decided 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em' and that the best way to retain players, or gain them, is to become more reward focused. The Incarnate Raid Grind is, so far, shaping up to be rather WoW-lite, and the prospect of seeing a greater focus on that style of gameplay (i.e. the majority of new content being high level/incarnate/group based) at the expense of the rest of the game... well... I hope not.

I'd hate, absolutely hate, for COH to become a game where it can be said "The game starts at 50." It never has been, and for a lot of people that's one of its great strengths.

I suppose so. No strong opinion either way, but I'm not sure the devs would want to be seen to be 'encouraging' speed runs.

Too much work for too little return, and having played voiced MMOs I'm quite happy that CoH isn't. Apart from anything else speech in battles is mostly just cues for "Here comes my big attack - DUCK!"

More importantly it would draw massive attention to the fact that the game has no facial animation.

Besides, I know what the better written characters 'sound' like, and if they did go for voice acting I'm certain some of them would sound... wrong.

If this skips cutscenes for the entire group then absolutely /unsigned. You may have seen those scenes a million times, but I might not have. Half the time the only way I have even the slightest idea what's going on in a TF is through the cutscenes, and I don't want that taken away from me by someone trying to shave 30 seconds off his speedrun time.

Eh?

*runs off to look up the wiki*

Cool. Yeah, my PB is only level 7. He would be higher, but Vahzilok zombies keep beating him up. Anyway, that's good to know, and something to definitely look forward to (I love hover blasting.)