Monstrofo

If I have GM rewards correct, in that I need to do 10% of the total damage to get the badge and merits, then I am quite impressed by Demon Summoning's damage.

Earlier today someone spawned Babbage in Skyway city from the TF and announced it so I figured I'd head over.

My MM is Demon/Therm, level 31, no attack powers taken. I put Hell on Earth on the Prince, Forge on him and Tier 2s, and let them attack while I spot healed.

I was not in a team, there were at least a dozen others there... Plenty of scrappers and at least one stalker, and for some reason someone summoned a Vanguard HVAS. So, if I have the requirements right, the demons alone, even without the 32 buff, did 10%+. I'm impressed if that's true.

I have Thugs/Poison and Thugs/Dark (both 32+), Thugs/Pain and Thugs/Thermal (both 26+) so this isn't a bias speaking.

If I'm wrong about what I needed to do for the rewards, totally ignore me!

How about since currently neither power stacks (I think. I know Envenom doesn't because I can't halt regen, only slow it), then when using either debuff, the initial target gets the full effect. Every "split" gets a 20%, stacking debuff (up to 80% of the total), which is overwritten if hit by the direct debuff.

I'd just like to feel more useful in a team on my Thugs/Poison. I can slow groups, I can TRY to hold some, I can debuff the toughest enemy and the heaviest hitter, and when it's up I can use Noxious Gas, but I can't do much to feel like a team contributor unless it is against a GM or AV. This would just give people a reason to pick poison instead of seeing that darkness can drop a tar patch at nearly every mob, and give defense, and other debuffs (including stacking -regen)...

I was over reading the Controller forum and found this thread http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=236649

When I saw the below explanation of the "AoE" of the power, I pictured the debuffs in /poison doing this. Many other games have biological abilities than "infect" nearby enemies, and since this kind of "travel" from enemy to enemy is now in the game already, it could be applied to Envenom and Weaken.

Any of us who have played /Poison know it's extremely difficult to put these debuffs on the many multiple enemies in a large team, so we have to very carefully pick and choose the best targets. That's all well and good, strategy is nice, except every other debuff set gets AoE debuffing AND more utility. This could be a nice way to level the playing field for the only unique MM secondary (seems like they should care about it more since it IS unique)

Every single primary and secondary ability a Brute has that connects with an enemy (including things like Hand Clap which do no damage) has +400% taunt on it to each enemy it hits.

The difference between a Brute and a Tanker in taunting is that single target attacks don't taunt other enemies around the Brute. When a Tanker uses single target attacks, up to four enemies around them are also taunted (Gauntlet effects up to five targets per "use")

It seems like the majority in Praetoria have it... including those without a single veteran badge. I think they see others with it and ask "Hey wow how are you running and/or jumping so much better than me?" and of course we answer NINJA RUN! and they go and purchase it.

I'd say definitely go with Demon Summoning for a primary... You get a little bonus resistance from the tier 2 pet, but the Demon Prince is going to be your best friend... He has no knockback unlike a number of other tier 3 pets (the lich is a nice choice for that, too... but zombies are annoying), what he DOES have is POAoE slow and -recharge, so those enemies you want to surround you for Rise to the Challenge will be slowed into the area, and the -rech will be a nice form of damage mitigation for you. Demons also have a good deal of AoE damage so you can focus on the big enemy while they take down everything else (Demon Prince also happens to have a PBAoE damage aura after 32) The other pets do close to melee, although I am not sure why you want that... Most MM players dislike meleeing tier 1 pets especially. They die fast!

For Secondaries I'd recommend Pain Dom, Thermal, Dark or Traps. I'll go through each one

Pain Dom is a significant healer, and gives significant regen bonuses... If Suppress Pain and Painbringer are both on you, combined with WP, your regen will be absurdly high (and it already is to start with). Painbringer, besides regen, also adds damage, which you'll like... and recovery, which you won't care about. If anyone doesn't need more recovery it's willpower. Pain also has an AoE damage, to hit and res buff, and an AoE -Res -Def debuff. They're not as good as the buffs and debuffs in thermal, but they're less work to use (Pain is in many ways a lazy thermal, which truly has some appeal... Thermal is a busy secondary)

Thermal does everything but healing (and recovery, which you don't need) better than pain, but it's more work, as I've said. It has stronger Resistance than Pain (or any other MM I believe) and if you two are mainly duoing then it won't be too much work to keep up (a little annoying in full teams). This provides enough Res that you should be able to reach Scrapper softcaps pretty well. It also has a very good single target damage, to hit buff that recharges fast enough to keep on you AND the tier 3 pet, and maybe another if slotted well. And it has very good debuffs.

Dark is a very good AoE debuffer and also has a number of control powers which can help you out. They also have a very strong heal, and a team Def buff that's decent. The final ability is a pet that, when cast next to you in times of trouble, might save your life (heals and controls)

Finally traps is a set that tends to be more of a solo favorite but should help you out in a duo, too. It is a good debuff set and also comes with a great Def aura and is light enough on end use that your MM ally can justify taking attacks better than most other MMs. The DS attacks have -Res to them so those would help a little. It can also be a fun set to play because the MM "sets up" for the mobs, and you could lure them into the traps and then help the pets mop up. It has no heal but it has a stationary regen beacon that'll add to your regen when you want it up, and they can take medicine if needed.

For the other secondaries: Poison is actually pretty good in my opinion, amazing on very hard single targets, but very unpopular right now because it has very little AoE utility and basically no buffs (the final power is a great AoE debuff though)... FF and Storm both have way too much knockback for you. I'm not experienced with TA.

Edit: Oops I read it as you being the Scrapper and your friend being the MM, thus referring to you as the Scrapper in this.

I tried to solo Deathsurge... He couldn't do enough damage to the Bruiser to take him down (obviously with heals and debuffs going) but apparently his regen has been buffed since issue... hmm, I think I did him in 8, or the -regen of envenom has been lowered, so I barely saw his health lower after 10 minutes. Figure it'd take me hours to kill him... and he runs so the Bruiser apparently doesn't taunt (or can't taunt a GM) oh well!

You should be using release_pets not dismiss as it actually kills them instead of dismissing them... Dismiss won't get rid of bugged pets for example

I just started a Thugs/Pain and I'm wondering about the effectiveness of three things.

I have two World of Pain questions. First, do you actually notice survivability increase in the pets, especially the arsonist, when it's running? Second, if you pop it on Gang War does that make a huge difference? It seems like the combination would be very effective, more accuracy and damage on a dozen temporary pets!

And then does the Bruiser have enough health that between Suppress Pain and Painbringer he has noticeable regen? Does it justify slotting Painbringer for heal/rech IOs to increase it? Maybe put in multiple heal/rech and end mod/rech to make sure it's on him all the time and really keep him in the fight? (obviously we're talking solo I wouldn't put it on him on a team...)

I have not tried DS/Poison but I do have Thugs/Poison and I've got to say DS would be the only other thing I'd put /Poison on because the Demon Prince does go right to melee after it casts its Ice Blast (and sometimes it'll hold from range, too)... This might be a VERY good reason to go with /Poison and I plan to try it

The Demon Prince has PBAoE slow, keeping things inside of Noxious Breath in a way the bruiser can't, and he has that Hold which you can stack with the /Poison hold. (of course you can do that with /Dark, too) The space from 32-38 will feel weaker on /Poison than on /Dark because you have no AoE -RES to take advantage of all the AoE attacks the demons gain with the 32 upgrade, but after Noxious Breath that'll even out.

Still, /Dark is /Dark and there is a reason it's so popular...

Frankly this feels too close to a reskinned mixture of Mercenaries and Thugs. If they're going to do this I'd rather they just add a Heroic version of each MM primary (and fix Mercenaries while they're at it) and reskin Mercenaries over to Police for blueside.

It seems like it'd be less work to give us graphic and "title" choices of pets instead of making entirely new primaries, but who knows.

Yeah... I had this happen again today. /release_pets gets rid of them. Phew.

I see that almost no one here is using /Poison. This character was made when Thugs were brand new. Thugs/Poison was the flavor of the month because it was seen as such an awesome ST soloer (I killed Deathsurge on my own with it for example... Don't know if that's possible with him anymore, thinking of spawning him to try it)

So anyway I came back recently with GR and I just got him to 35 (he was 33) ...Still very impressive ST Solo (haven't tried anything past a purple boss though) but... I feel weird on teams. Of Masterminds I've been playing Thug/Thermal and Demon/Pain since coming back and they just both feel so much more useful to teams.

With /poison the most I can do to large groups is slow them. When I see a boss I'll use my debuffs on it and hold it, but everything else dies before there is a reason to. I have no attacks and frankly I'm barely even using end. I have stamina and I'm wondering if I should drop it... But it seems like I'd regret that for a tough fight. When I hit 35 the poison trap seemed truly unappealing (I see the advantage of sleep solo but...) so I took Maneuvers to add to pet defense.

I at least will get to 38 to try out Noxious Gas. Sticking the Bruiser in the middle of a mob will let me bring more debuffs to my team... Can it be made perm?

I'm wondering if I should respec and drop my travel power and just take all of leadership to add to a team and my own pets. With my debuffs, leadership (the so-so numbers MMs get from it) and spot healing is it worth taking this guy into the 40s and beyond to add to a team? Do people find it useful? The debuffs are pretty impressive when a solo target is difficult...

Also since I'm nearly there, anyone play Thugs/Poison all the way and have opinions on APP/PPP? I'm open to either side.

Thanks.

Felt the need to come back and edit this in:

I am not looking for the answer "Any character is worth playing if you enjoy it" Yes... yes I know that. I haven't made a character in this game I didn't enjoy to an extent. I like this game. I'm speaking strictly of its use and desirability, mostly in teams, at level 50, basically. I don't think I've ever even seen a 50 /poison, but they must exist.

Hey. I've had this bug, too. It's quite impressive... They'll just stand there and even if you dismiss them or LOG OUT they'll stick around. Amazing.

So the only way I've found to deal with it is to sidekick... They'll all die and you can summon new pets (which won't have the same issue). Just do that whenever it happens... If you can't find anyone lower though you're screwed. Hopefully they fix it!

Wow thanks for the followups, great!

I never noticed repel on hurricane, glad to know... That'd have cost me a few deaths before I realized it.

Also, Local_Man, your guide is, I believe, the reason I first played an Earth/Rad. Thanks for the strategy tips! They'll definitely help us out.

Thanks to everyone for the replies!

We've actually decided to change her Corruptor to a Fire/Dark and I think I'm going to be Earth/Storm

Reasoning as follows:
Drop Quicksand, Immobilize with Stone Cages, drop Tar Patch, Freezing Rain
All mobs now have significant -RES, -DEF, very slow even when if immob misses
Stand in the middle of them with Hurricane running since Stone Cages has -knockback, so now mobs have significant -To Hit, and use Earthquake for more -To Hit and knockdown of mobs that I miss immob on
Run Steamy Mist, Shadow Fall, Maneuvers so we are less likely to be hit Twilight Grasp is a nice heal when we are, very likely to hit
We stack Holds on the hardest enemy and use that as our anchor
Three AoE stuns between us
Knockback using Storm pets can have their full damage done since they won't be knocking enemies away thanks to Stone Cages
She drops Rain of Fire and Fireballs on them which are both quite likely to hit and do significant damage, with single target damage in too of course

It sounds effective and a lot of fun, so I think we're going that way.

I'm going to be in a leveling pact with my wife's fire/rad corruptor. I have one and am experienced with that, and I'd like her to try it... very effective. I want to bring utility to the duo, and also be useful in a team. I don't want to go /radiation since I've played that a good deal already. Also not interested in /thermal, have a MM of that. I'm disappointed /dark isn't in for controllers, I was hoping to do that.

The only controller I've played before, into the 20s, was an earth/rad. It brought a lot to a team and I can see earth/ bringing a fair amount to a duo, but its damage did seem horrible, which I guess is the obvious trade-off.

I'm thinking kinetics for a secondary, but maybe something fits better? And is there a controller set that actually does fairly good damage while still bringing utility to a team, or should I forget the damage and go for earth? Thanks.