Mikoto_yo_Akuhei

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yeah, I just got the hover. thanks for all the help everyone

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Everyone must fly on their first toon!

Must!

surrious bidnezz!

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Well, its an interesting perspective...

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It's a refreshing perspective.
Especially to be espoused so prominently.

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Craig Morrison (AoC Lead Designer) : You know, I think in normal MMO-and anyone who’s worked on an MMO will probably tell you the same thing: You spend 90% of your time on the last 10% of any design, preventing players from doing stuff. [Laughs]

Because players main disposition is to break things.

And I think that rather than looking at things like that, I prefer to ask the designers to embrace the thought of putting their minds into the minds of a player, rather than seeing it as a challenge almost like, “We must police them, we must force them to play the way that we want them to play!”

I hate that. I know hate’s a very strong word, but I really do. I really, really dislike that approach to design.

.:from this interview at mmogamer:.

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^^
That.
That right there is what needs to be embraced across all MMOs.
If all the concern is about preventing exploits etc., fun get's lost in the extremely mad shuffle.
Players are like water, they will find a way.

Devs focusing on preventing exploits and punishing players is tantamount to running around New Orleans after Katrina with a hair dryer team.

Focus on content.

If it's fun everything else will fall in line.

The current implementation of PvP is less fun.
It is less fun because we are role playing super powered beings with much of our powers severely mitigated.
Most of our support relegated to ineffectual.
Zone and Arena content is stale.
Rewards are meh.

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My blaster can't AoE stun or AoE hold or AoE immob or AoE knockdown.

They also don't get ranged holds to deal with extremely problematic foes before they get there.

And once you jump into build options, although not part of the base design, the defense and resist modifiers of Doms is higher even than Scrappers meaning they get higher benefit from Tough and Weave (plus resist/defense PPPs) than anyone but Tankers.

As some one that has played blasters and doms: those holds add a LOOOOOOT of survivability, even the ST ones.

That 20% extra hp means they can take just 16% more damage, thats means that that 7 minions kill a blaster as fast as 6 minions kill a dom that just crosses his arms.

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Ummm...
I'm not following you.

I think you're right on an AoE hold, but as for the rest... I mean I can post all those powers if you like.
Some of them you of course get from Epic, but they're there.
Ice has 2 ranged holds alone.

/Psi only has Psionic Lance and PSW that chart above moderate damage.

Is this really about inhibiting farming?
Which I don't do nor could I care less what anyone does.
Farmers are like water, they will find a way.

Best just to keep the content fun.

Leave mah dommy alone!
I just returned and am trying to figure out how to have some fun with her.

Fix content, not AT's.

That Curveball guide is pretty good and is what I was going to link.
Siolfir got 'er done tho.

I usually create my own .txt files and then run from that.
The hotkeying (or keybinding) is very customizable and fairly easy to achieve.

And with all the emotes in this game, it's pretty easy to get some hilarious bind string going.

Welcome to Infinity!

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That article is very interesting.

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Isn't it though?

Should clone that guy and put him in charge of all MMOs.

You're only herding lolzcats tryin to hammer your hard earned money payin' public to conform to something they will always try to get around anyways.

Just make it fun.
Save the drama fer yer mama.

And back to a point I had meant to make in my previous post in regards to Devs not really caring about PvP: The Monkey Cage in the Arena is still around?
I don't know how many times I've had to reset because of that dumb map.
The players don't like it.
Get rid of it.

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People go to PVP zones to get badges and little else. There's a ton of cool content that's not being used or is implemented in a way that no one wants to use it (I LOVE the "hotspot" battle system in Siren's Call, for example, but that's kinda broken now plus even when we had it, hardly anyone used it)


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I think the content there is ok.
But just ok.
It should be epicly fantastorgasmic!

Upthread I was bemoaning the lack of rewards.
Someone stated that bribing is not the way to increase pvp activity.
I guess I got kind of simplified in my post.
I'd like to see rewards that were fairly enticing, but, as with any MMO area, the solution lies in [u]content, content, content.[u]

One thing that immediately comes to mind is a Villain vs. Hero combination Mayhem/Safegaurd.
I know that it would take some tweaking to figure out how to get this to work well.
But it could be done.
I think things like this where Red Side and Blue Side are working for different goals in a PvP environment would be amazing.
Vils are heading for the bank. Heroes gotta stop them.
No timer? I dunno. Maybe the timer still is good. Maybe just increase the overall begin time from 15 minutes to 20?
Just speculating.
I think that whole Task Forces could be built around this idea of mutually competitive, team oriented, goal driven destruction!
As one side draws closer to victory the NPCs roll in to try and turn the tide.
Obviously we'd need the NPC and characters to have an even playing field. Unlike what currently exists in the PvP zones.

But this is just one idea.
I'm sure there are tons out there that would make for great PvP content.
I'm just trying to make my earlier statement more lucid. Good rewards, but via great content. And better rewards for larger teams.

As to the, "I got my face pwn'd off in 1 second. Now I hate all pvp.", I don't blame you for not wanting to participate in PvP.
It's no fun to get destroyed like that.
And getting taunted is terrible. Trust me, I know.
I've lauded the point of comeuppance here, but it's just not being read.
But reiterating that over and over again in this thread is, as another posted earlier, not the "dialogue" I am hoping to attain.
No offense meant. I'm just saying that, "PvPers are ebil!", has been heard.

For those that say that the I13 approach is a step in the right direction, I just don't get it.
I just disagree wholeheartedly that the game should feel that different. And, to me, incredibly bland.
I wanna feel superpowered. That's the point.
Not gimped and a shadow of my PvE self.
And I'm coming from the point of view of someone not crying because they broke my, "I win!", buttons.
I mostly pvpd with my Ice/Cold Corr and my Mind/Psi Dommy.
And not very well.

But people liked me. And they liked that I tried to get Vils more involved in PvP.
Our first Arena Match, against the long since broken up Anointed Brotherhood, was a study in futility.
But in stark contrast to the stereotype of PvPers, they applauded our effort and endeavored to help us.
Just the fact that I was willing to field Arena teams was an amazing recruitment initiative for my SG.
Soon I ended up with quite a decent roster of PvPers.
This is before they expanded SG numbers and I had to actually create 2 more SGs to hold all the activity (well... 1 was technically for semi-retired toons).
We could do damage in any zone and hold our own vs. many SGs, Red or Blue.
This offering that the learning curve is that hard is just not so.
As with any game. It's experience.

I do agree completely that PvP is an afterthought to the Devs.
Which is horribly, tragically blase.
I wish our Devs would take some cues from Craig Morrison.

Working as intended.

Well... if I get called off work next Monday night, I'll join.

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For some PvPers, they wanna pwn up. But not just defeat you, they want to humiliate you if you let them.
Don't let them.

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A large number of players determined that the best way to achieve that goal was to avoid PvP. No one seemed to have a good story to sell to players why they should tolerate bad behavior when they could simply avoid it completely. That made advice such as the above lack a sizeable audience.

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Which is exactly why the rewards system fails.
If there were significant rewards then most peeps would hazard a journey into a zone.
They would then find that ignoring the idiots is easily achievable. They should be able to find someone that can tutor them so they can become survivable enough for their goals.

And then they would eventually find themselves in the situation where they crush the idiots, and that is one of the greatest things in video gaming. Regardless of genre.
However much immersion one can attain in PvE, dropping the PvP zone loudmouth is infinitely satisfying.

And I've seen players hand out fantastic rewards at the Arena.
Purple recipes.
50 million in inf.
Etc.

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And that's why you're not going to get a dialogue going with the developers about this. The developers aren't PVPers — if you insult them, call them names, name demands, throw tantrums, and basically act like that idiot in the PVP zone that everybody hates, they're going to ostracize you. Jeez, children on the playground figure this part out.

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I don't believe there is any tantrums thrown in this thread.

I know exactly what you mean about dealing with the infantile behavior of some.
I'd recommend a personal ostracism.
The /ignore usually works pretty well.
Turning off broadcast works wonders as well.

From my limited experience pvping upon my return.
Most of the asshattery is very limited as folks are just delighted and amazed that someone is in the zone to play with.

I'd love to see the rewards scalable along team size.
I think that's a capital idea and have stated so numerous times.
Rewards is how you encourage participation. Not nerfing.

I don't believe a forced ostracism is the solution, Hertz.
I understand the frustration.
Honestly, the best solution is to never reduce yourself to the level of an [censored].
I know it's hard. And I definitely didn't follow that advice when I first hit Warburg and was griefed for hours.
But you adapt.
There are always layers to gaming.
For some PvPers, they wanna pwn up. But not just defeat you, they want to humiliate you if you let them.
Don't let them.
Your response of, "gg", will win the broadcast pvp.
Remaining unflappable is epic win.

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They should hire macskull to fill the PvP Dev position.

macskull
macskull
macskull

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QFT
/e cheer

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However, I would like to see more options added to the arena so that one can create an i12 environment, as far as mechanics go. Make it so that those of us that enjoyed THAT style of PvP can have it, and those that enjoy i13 PvP can have theirs too.

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If you do that, though, you'd never see the hardcore PvP'ers in the zones ever again, unless there were big changes to the zones. The general argument for the I13 changes has been that they were implemented to try to attract more people, and it didn't. If you work to further separate the I12 PvPers from the I13 PvPers, no one wins. Zones would be even more empty than they already are, and Arenas would just have the same people getting tired of fighting the same people over and over again.


I think people need to be patient and see what the Devs plan on doing with the Zones and Base raids before they totally give up on PvP.

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As it has been 2 issues since their PvP "fix" blew up in their face, I don't think patient is the right attitude.

Vigilant.
Demonstrative.
Ernest.
Forthright.
Diplomatic.

Hey... their changes cost them money and a lot of people fun.
It's ok to admit that you made a mistake.
It'd be even better if you fixed said mistake.

Dollhouse makes a great point at how the new rules completely marginalize some ATs in mac's thread.

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<QR>

What's really ad about the whole PvP change its, it was directed to the Non-PvPer. They did this in hopes to get more PvErs involved into PvP and failed big time.

But yet, the PvPers are the ones left to deal with the changes, as it didn't effect the PvErs at all.

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Agreed. I am (or was, more accurately) an RP'er who liked to go in for some PvP now and then (yes, we exist!). I was terrible at first, but enjoyed it enough to move from occasional zone PvP to mostly Arena stuff, and to realize the value of a dedicated buffer. I worked hard at making my Kin/Psi Defender, an RP character built to be a "team leader/force multiplier" type, a valuable member of an arena team. I don't think I can say I ever got good at it, but I did get to the point where Festival was getting picked in the first round of Arena League drafts on her home server, sometimes by genuinely good PvP'ers from Old School and similar SGs. Most importantly, I enjoyed it.

No longer. The new PvP is essentially mindless button mashing. It lessens the effectiveness of characters like Festival to the point where they're a liability to a team, not an asset. MMO PvP is never going to be as acutely skill-focused as FPS PvP (where you have to, you know...aim...), but the i13 changes removed a big chunk of what skill requirements there were.

Fail. So very, very fail. It's been months since I've PvP'd...and I don't see that changing any time soon.

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Great post, Dollhouse.

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Nice post Mac. Read it all, agree with the main points.

The only thing I do like about the changes is not needing a full tray of break free's to play a squishy in the zones.

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I'll take the break frees and a pocket emp any day over this!

I really like this discussion and am glad to see so many participating.

I'd sure like the Devs to also chime in.

The modified rollback (i.e. getting rid of TS and DR) may not happen, as so many state, but that's not going to stop me from beating the drum for that change.
The change in rewards and the modifying of PPPs is nice, but the advent of Ish13 did the opposite in regards to PvP promotion.

There is no question that the PvP minigames need to be rethought. Successful completion is easier with a team, but I have collected more Shivans and Nukes solo than I care to remember (early LRSF days).
This definitely needs addressing and is a much easier fix to PvP promotion that dumbing down our characters to this ugly thing that passes for PvP right now.
What they implemented was a mistake.
And, sure, they may hold onto this mistake stubbornly as they have done with many other things, but it's a mistake nonetheless.

I thank the many that have reiterated my point that PvP is a cathartic change to the grind of leveling.
I like the analogies used as well.

I like that someone pointed out that some are hesitant to face defeat with their characters who have steamrolled through every mission.
Those first few faceplants in PvP can sting.
But enough of them and you get used to it. You improve and you actually improve your PvE game as well.
Although... that is handcuffed now with these current implementations.
But improving in PvP meant understanding your powersets that much more. Thus more success in the PvE game.

I'm sure that I can adapt and have some fun with the current system. But I can't stand that they just mitigated the support so harshly. Those are the ones truly left hanging. The healers and mezzers. It's a joke and a slap in the face to a vital segment of the PvP population. Ask any serious team PvPer and they should tell you that their MVP is this empath, that thermal, or this kin (or maybe even this dommy, salud, Tops, wherever you are!).
Or was.
I know how much respect, value and appreciation the great support people garnered back when I used to PvP a lot.
Those peoples roles have literally been written out of the game.
And that's truly sad.

Think about those analogies made. About the fluid tactics needed to succeed in PvP.
Now think about the crack healer who gets you through the toughest of <insert PvE experience here>.
Extrapolate that to how bomb of a healer, or other support toon, you had to be to foster success in the PvP realm.
And the Devs just said... (essentially), "We don't want you to play anymore."
And that's what the Devs got.
Shameful.

Keep the dialogue going!

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the problem with pvp in this game is simple:
there is no easy way to go and start meaningful, "balanced" pvp.

WoW has imbalanced pvp - but they have battlegrounds. You can easily get a pick-up group of 10 to pvp in a game against your foes. The pvp is not just endless defeat/respawn - that isn't popular in WoW either. And you get rewards for it - making it meaningful.

Wandering into a pvp zone and hoping for a fight - when they are largely empty, is a waste of time.

Fighting someone who will just respawn is a waste of time.

The imbalances in pvp don't matter - except to hardcore pvpers.

The rest of the players avoid pvp because it isn't something you can do casually and feel like you accomplished anything.

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Well... a roll back to PvP circa Ish 12 would be a start.
Keep the changes to PPPs tho. (I'm not sure when they were introduced as I left between Ish 10 and Ish 11).

I do agree that something needs to be done about the rewards for PvP.
That should have been the obvious choice/fix to up participation in PvP.

Fighting someone who just respawns is a waste of time?
That's pretty much every FPS out there.
And I love those and have tons of fun playing those.
But I'm a comic book nerd. I want superheroic craziness PvP!

That's the big letdown on the current PvP.
These characters that we have invested so much time and effort into are mere shadows of themselves in the PvP environment.
Bleh!

I think the rewards should be upped, but only redeemable (or scalable) via team on team, objective based PvP. There's some good concepts in RV and SC, but they really fall short of CoX potential.

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In that regard, Spidey is the posterboy argument *for* travel suppression. It would be hard to think of a worse example for the point you want to make.



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Hrmm... you might want to read some Spidey.

And my point to you is that knocked down or up, stunned, held, etc. would be more in line with what your actually addressing. You know... how the pvp used to be.

Not "onoz! the bad guy is getting away cuz I'm running in quicksand" feel that pvp has right now.

Those that persevere through this... cool.
I admire your tenacity.

I lament having that cathartic reprieve from the grind that old school PvP was.
*lights pipe, reminisces*
Epic battles in SC and RV.

As for attitudes of certain factions within the game, etc.
I learned a long time ago that taking anything seriously in broadcast pvp or forum pvp is failing at either.
Relenting and participating in a shouting match with an [censored] reduces you to that level.
lol
My friend rolled a bdsm "gimp" scrapper just to have fun with those fools. Complete with a whole set of binds lauding the PvP battles as his masochistic frenzy.
Hilarious.

Ah... but I digress.
This is serious business!!1!

No it's not.
It's a game.
And one of the facets of it that gave me, and many others, a lot of joy is massively broken. By design.

Thanks for all the responses.
Pro and Con.
This is dialogue, and if kept up will attract some notice.
~Mik

Hiya...
I just returned after a long hiatus.
I came back to team with friends and enjoy the hilarity that City of... always provides.

At one time I ran a pretty successful Villainous PvP SG on Infinity.
I pretty much quit the game because of the lack of attention to the imbalance of Red vs. Blue.
I would have to field just about the perfect team to hang with the Hero SGs. Whilst they could plug and play Emps, Kins, and whatever 4 Blasters that were lying around.

I know that the Devs have been making attempts to correct things. I know that in the entirety of PvP in this game that it has always been the red headed stepchild of CoH (wasn't there at launch, playing catch up ever since). I know that it cannot be an easy task. I applaud all the work that has kept this really fun game whirling along after 5 years. Thank you. Now, please work at returning fun to the PvP. Start by listening and talking to the practitioners.

I returned for the camaraderie, but only part of it is available to me.
What passes for PvP currently is abysmal.
Or even sub-abysmal.

I would much rather bang my head against the wall of imbalance that was PvP life before Issue 13 than roll with whatever you call this now. I do like that PPPs were finally addressed.

[u]I created this thread because any dev response to anything PvP is older than 2 months and is in closed threads.
Hardly conducive to discussion.[u]

As I am just returning to the game I hardly have any ground to stand on in regards to ranting. Thankfully, I have friends that are well equipped to do so.

Please read macskull's Open Letter to the Devs.

Please keep these threads alive.
Post in both of them.
But also keep in mind that these are meant to be engaging discussions with the hopes of attracting developer attention to address, rethink, and hopefully change what has become PvP.

I'll close with a line I've come to adopt when discussing this subject: Spider-Man don't have no travel suppression!

My good friend Bug You Too added: Wolverine don't have no diminishing returns on his healing power!

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Way to go mac, and seriously never give up the fight. Still fighting it my self atm. good luck bro.

everyone should mail 100 copies of this post to the devs lol.

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Good idea.

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Hrmm...
I don't think emailing anyone this stuff would solve anything.
I can only imagine the plethora of emails that the Devs receive.

I wonder...
a coupla snail mails might work.
The shock and awe of actual snail mail might cause an actual furor.

I'm willing.

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just post in here if you would like to see i12 pvp back into the game im curious to see how many people would cause i am one of them

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LOL

ROFLMAO

uh, NO

PvP is fine the way it is thank you very much.

I remember I-12: holds that lasted forever, unresistable noob, er, assassin strike, OPed Widows, and low talent players taking out skilled players with ease. Good riddance to I-12 PvP - it was terrible. Once all the ATs are available to both side...balance.

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That's why the idea of a zone that offers I12 is the best idea.
Or alternate Siren's Calls and Recluse's Victorys that offer the old PvP.

"PvP is fine the way it is thank you very much."

/facepalm

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Looks like summer is going to be busy for us with peeps coming back for a break from RL. Too bad PvP sucks!! Welcome back gang!

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Fixt that for you.

I'll still sucky pvp with you.

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shameless bump for the devs to notice a well written letter to them

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This.

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i know they never would tho they arent smart enough to do such a thing what they could do is make new pvp zones designed for old hardcore vet pvpers with i12 pvp they could make a whole new issue with it that im sure would kick some serious [censored] and would really bring lots back that droped due to i13 pvp man if only i was a dev id make it a reality the new zones would kick butt too it would make rv look stupid

i would also change the way rewards are for pvp give you this thing called like pvp experience where once you gain enough you can use it to purchase pvp io's and have like scenerio pvp with epic huge team batttles i mean id make it so damn fun i got so many idea's that its crazy as im sure others do too but they are never heard or looked at or thought about sadly

thats just some of the ideas that breeze thru my mind and like anything the things that can be done in a mmo game are endless

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I like the idea of another zone with I12 pvp enabled.
Another level 50 zone.
Or, hell, just make 3 new zones.
It's not like we couldn't use an update.

Have a I12 zones and whatever this crap that passes for pvp now zones, and see which ones fill up.

I don't know about the pvp IO idea.
But I agree that the rewards need retooling.
I think rare recipe rewards would be cool.
Or red side Recluse could reward with Infamy.
Or how about zone control engineering?
Like being able to create a mobile hospital or pillbox where you'd like them.
I think the rewards should be scalable as well. Along team size, amount of players in the zone, diversity of ATs, etc.

You do have good ideas, Kaatrina78.

Umm...

What was the question again?

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Recently some one close to me has canceled their account because they are not finding it fun to pvp anymore because very character that they liked has had its benefits for a team taken away. with diminsihing returns the thermals buffs did nothing and thaw did not protect from mezzes so it, the holds from the Controllers and doms only lasted a moment and then they were gone and slows did nothing. And every heal healed for less and less til it did nothing.

i am afraid that all my favorite toons have had the same thing done to them. It got to the point where i deleted some of my favorite ones that could not do anything near what they could have before to try and find something that i would like in a near comparison to them and i can not. I would like nothing more than to have the changes to pvp go away but i know that will not happen so i would agree that i would like to have some constructive thinking with the developers about the way pvp has gone since the changes and what could be done to make it better than what it is now.

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Shard echoes the sentiments in the (brilliant) OP.
The Devs need to work with the PvP community.

I recently returned after cancelling after Ish 10.
My brief foray into RV had me shaking my head.
I still had fun. But it was so gimp.

We all know that PvP has been always been an afterthought in City of...
It's shameful.
Superpowered battles are the reason most of us signed up.
However compelling the content may be, pitting one's superpowered character vs. other player's superpowered character is the true test.

I wouldn't begin to understand how to fix the situation, but the dialogue has got to begin between those PvPers still fighting for a decent game and the developers.

Heck... even a roll back to pre Ish 13, with the addition of the PPP changes would seem to be a good start.

I don't envy the task ahead of the Devs to keep this aspect of the game viable, but I hope they address it. And soon!

Spider-Man don't have no movement suppression!
PvP zones should have epic battles between numerous teams of Red and Blue of all ATs!
Not this... stop and go... crap.

I want mah dommy back!