Microcosm
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Posts
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Joined
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My build will not be altered until we also have toggle suppression. That was more of a problem for me than the shifting time.
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Reppu, did you use waterspout on your pylon run? I find it to be the best all around as well, for the -res, AoE, single Target, knockup, etc.
I'm not sure about the chains avoiding sky splitter, as I didn't calculate them. I suppose ithey could be better, but the +damage from keeping form of the body three-stacked is not extreme... Someone test it and compare. -
Quote:Toggle suppression in forms is the next thing we need, and really should go along with this change. Hopefully they will attempt to add it to the list.Originally Posted by Thoran_EU
I'm getting more and more excited for I23:
-New Incarnate ability
-New trial
-Instant form changing
Now if they would only add toggle suppression...
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BrandX, are you not able to run any of the other chains? That chain has lower dps than several others.
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One step closer to solving all kheld issues. Slow going, but we are still seeing progress
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As I told granite in PM, those top 5chains are very close in dps, to the point that it doesn't really matter unless you go with the absolute best.
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Quote:Ya, I've calculated it before, and even assuming you could get that build up every cycle (which you can't, as you said), it is not necessarily this massive killer it is made out to be. In AoE this is also true, even with the 100% crit on burst. My point is that there are a lot of misconceptions floating around based on feeling--such as 'km is super strong'--not on fact.Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
KM can't really function right now because it relies so heavily on the Stalker ATO proc which is limited to proccing only once every 10 seconds. If the KM Stalker doesn't get his ATO proc, he doesn't get his BU, which means his BU isn't perma, nor can it have it's potential 150% BU uptime, which is it's greatest niche, also missing the BU proc means there will be a gap in KM's top attack chain, which includes BU.
Regarding db with brutes vs scrappers, blinding feint certainly favors scrappers, but other sets did not fare much better. If I could link more easily on my phone I would dig up the thread for you. -
MB>PS>AS>SS is indeed the top, though not by much.
I am confused by your statement about keeping the -res perma; if the proc were perma you would multiply your final damage by 1.2 (after enhancements and other procs). -
I'll be back to explain how to make these calcs later. You guys know how to calculate avg -res right?
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Quote:You guys post so fast i have trouble keeping upOriginally Posted by BrandX
So the question is, how much more damage does the Scrapper SF user do compared to Brute SF user (if they do at all, but I'm inclined to think Scrappers will generally make out with higher DPS than Brutes when it comes to Staff).
. I am sure a scrapper will do better dps than the brute, but not necessarily by much.
If you want a reference for top performing brute dps (minus ss/fire and TW), Deus made a thread on it in the brute forum some time ago that has several good data points. Shinobi's staff time is not that far from other sets.
I will also say I have not seen that km on a stalker seriously beats staff. I will have to do some testing there. -
Quote:Yeah. That chain should be the best non-stalker version. 227 dps is not tops, but its not horrendous either. Deus Otiosus got about 260 dps on a brute replica of my scrappers db/elec (highest scrappers time to-date) for comparison purposes.Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
I mentioned before that I did use a build with a procced out Mercurial Blow, it did not provide better dps than the PS>SR>PS>SS chain. Also my build has 105% global rchg before hasten, which is slightly more rchg than needed for the chain I use, but is still relatively high. Also Micro was talking about Stalkers, my toon is a brute.
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Quote:Again, TW is the obvious outlier, as well as the SS/Fire pairing. Find any other SS brute build in the pylon thread, you will not see these kinds of numbers. Comparing the set to the two outliers as "standards" is silly. Honestly, though people may not like it, this is more of a story of TW needing a nerf and rage needing to only work on powers within it's own set (as in, not gloom and not burn).Originally Posted by Granite Agent
My TW/SR Brute was getting 345dps on average (with some runs of 355dps).
Tommy just posted his SS/Fire/Soul took down a pylon in 2.30, which is 383.5dps. -
Quote:The recharge burden is on Sky Splitter. AS has plenty of time to recharge because of Sky Splitter's long activation time.Originally Posted by Granite Agent
What is the gating recharge item in those chains -- AS? What kind of recharge are you needing to hit for AS out of hide, to run those chains?
Also, still surprised you put Guarded Spin in some of those chains -- are you slotting it with something I'm not thinking about?
For guarded spin, Armageddon + Fury of the Gladiator proc. The affect of the -res on AS and Sky Splitter make up for the lower dpa than SR. -
If you are speaking about Dread Shinobi's, that was a brute.
As for the attack chains, it is sometimes better to use a lower dpa attack if it allows you to use your highest dpa attacks more frequently. Sometimes the addition of -res procs will make the difference. In such a case where you have two heavy hitters (AS and SS), it is better to get whatever -res you can or simply shorten the chain. -
Quote:Dread shinobi's staff fighter was a brute, not a scrapper. While not comparable to ss/fire or a TW, that is not far from average for a brute. Also, PS>SR>AS>SS is not the top chain at all.Originally Posted by Granite Agent
Messing around in MIDS based on a build I think Test Rat or someone through together. It's looking like Stalkers will have the only reasonable single-target chain in the Staff world, as the DPA on the attacks outside of AS aren't that hot. Dark Shinobi said his purpled-out Staff scrapper on Test was only getting 198 dps
In the build below:
1) Power Slice = Precise Strikes
2) Sweeping Strike = Guarded Spin
3) 10K cuts = eye of the storm
4) Dark Blast = Serpent's Reach
5) Ablating Strike = Sky Splitter
6) Vengeful = place holder for Dark Blast pre-req to Shadow Meld
In theory this build has enough recharge, I think, to run PS>SR>AS>SS, which appears to be the top ST attack chain. The problem is there is nowhere to really slot -RES since Mercurial isn't a powerpick, and sticking a Glad Armor in EoTS may be a waste.
Open to suggestions to proc it out more, etc. Not sure the Shield Wall +RES is really needed.
Build has 45%+ S/L def, and with Shadow Meld up (15 sec downtime, up every 30 secs, 15 sec duration) it i-caps on S/L and Melee, and hits 45%+ on just about everything else. Why Shadow Meld? 1) I hate redraw; 2) endurance hopefully is handled by Energize (see Power Sink question below); and 3) in i-trials, Shadow Meld is a godsend.
Base RES is 60%+ on S/L, 75% on energy, 50% on C/F, and 30%-35% on neg/psi with elec's toxic hole.
Skipped Power Sink -- is it worth it? Could take in place of SuperSpeed.
I would try to keep Power Sink. -
Quote:Was that test on a scrapper or a brute? I believe it was a brute, which makes the dps not as far from normal as stated (outside of ss/fire and TW, highest brute dps was usually 260ish). Also, saying you have to reach 300+ dps to be competitive on a scrapper is simply wrong. It is very abnormal for a scrapper to go above 300 dps unless it is dm/shield or db/elec.Originally Posted by Granite Agent
Everyone hating on Reppu is ignoring his post above, quoting Dread Shinobi's testing. This is pathetic dps for a purpled-out T4 reactive scrapper. People were beating this DPS on scrappers before incarnate powers and PPM procs. It should be at least in the 300+ range to be competitive with other sets.
I tested staff but only had time to get up to lvl 18. Lack of level bumps at available resources held me back. I concur that most of the comments in the Staff thread were aesthetics.
You may not like Reppu's delivery but it's really hard to argue with this message, that the set underperforms. Making it perform better or on par with higher end sets won't change the aesthetics or anything ppl like about it.
Edit: Going back through the pylon thread, scrapper builds other than dm/sd or db/elec vary widely, but most don't get close to 300 dps. As an example, John_Printemps's Scrapper:
KM/SR w/ T4 Reactive: 188 DPS (630/s, 10:30)
KM/SR w/ (I22) T4 Degenerative: 198 (550/s, 09:10)
If the staff brute is matching that km/sr scrapper, I don't think we can say the damage is terrible. -
Quote:Lol, there are five chains better than that one for stalkers.Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
PS>SR>AS>SS should be the best the stalker staff chain.
MB-GS-AS-SS
MB-PS-AS-SS
PS-GS-AS-SS
MB-SR-AS-SS
SR-GS-AS-SS
With appropriate -res procs where possible. -
Eh, it's difficult for me to get excited about it now, since it has been dangled like a carrot on the end of a stick for months.
However, I have a staff/ice stalker planned with costume, name, and weapon choice just waiting. I expect it to be vastly superior on a stalker for the reasons brandx stated. -
Correct me if I'm wrong, gents, but the recharge set bonus here is lower than the other ATO set, and therefore the catalyzed version would not likely conflict with purples but be something like~8%?
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Quote:I think you need to run some numbers on spines' single target chain, as even with the new AS it does abysmally low damage compared to other sets. It may feel ok, but it's really not.Originally Posted by Leo_G
Yes, it does better AoE than practically any set. It's very well balanced...for Stalkers. And while Spine Burst is slow like Thunder Strike, Spine Burst is *not* the workhorse of Spines. That is taken care of by Throw Spines (great AoE and fast so can be used on fewer foes too) and Ripper (not quick to animate but hits very hard *and* hits multiple foes easily). Spine Burst, at best, supplements your AoE and secondary effects like Chain Induction does, and at worse can be skipped.
For Stalkers? Yes, Spines is good and Spines is fine. For everyone else? Maybe not. For Scrappers, the only saving grace of the set is its continuous AoE (aka its ability to stack damage auras) but for a Brute, I have a feeling it'd have trouble building fury and for a Tanker, it wouldn't have many powers with an AoE Gauntlet effect (just taunt on its AoEs). The set could stand to be rebalanced, yes, but not because it does not do good AoE dmg, but because it does too slow ST dmg...except for Stalkers.
Gotta emphasize that last part. For Stalkers, the set is an overperformer thanks to AS. Slotted for cost (END/rech) and used whenever its up, there's no reason not to be able to take down ST foes with moderate ease.
As for secondary effect? It does have a 'kill it' secondary effect in the toxic DoT. Just like Fire Melee, except it has -rech, slow movement and immobilize as well...which can all help a melee character kill even faster due to less running foes...then there's the range in there too.
Another note, thunder strike is not the workhorse of electric. It should never be used in single target situations unless you have absolutely no other options. Every time you use thunder strike against a single target, Tinkerbell gets an STD.
The good thing about chain induction is that it is balanced as a single Target attack, not as an AoE. It is essential to your single Target damage and should not be skipped.
Edit: Pleaserecycle, while I'm not going to compare ci to spine burst, ci should still be jumping to new targets after one dies as of a couple of patches ago. If this is not happening you need to send a bug report. -
Quote:I think the thing with staff is that it has two AoEs, which both have extended range (secondary effect of the set). Really radius is what hampers both km's burst and stj's spin; even when the enemies crowd up on each other you will not hit nearly as many with those powers as you would with staff/elec/spine. I have high-level stalkers of all these primaries (except staff, obviously), and as far as I can tell, even with the broken nature of burst, elec and spine leave the other two in the dust in terms of AoE.Originally Posted by Reppu
Staff's AoE isn't that good. Worse than Kinetic Melee for sure. Burst is pretty overpowered, though.
Ripper is 'fairly standard' Range 7: Radius 90. It's not that great but it's something
Spine Burst is ugh.
Throw Spines is the only thing really worth acknowledging.
Meanwhile, Kinetic Melee has Burst... which beats all of the above because it's Burst. It's broken and it's been known to me.
Jacob's Ladder is 'okay'. I wasn't claiming anything amazing from it. It's lesser than Ripper for potential AoE but it's a better attack.
Chain Induction is what you're there for. Delicious AoE damage, although 'slightly delayed' due to the jumping mechanic.
And then Lightning Rod. Sure, the cooldown is long, but it's short enough to be there for mostly every single spawn, at least at high recharge levels.
And Street Justice has Spinning Strike. Even opening with it with 0 Combo Points at Stealth isn't bad, and you'll have it saturated for the second salvo really quickly. Otherwise, just combo point up with an AS from stealth on a Boss, punch that boss, then when everything is swarmed they eat a Spinning.
All things said; Spines is derpy. Needs overhaul.
I agree that spines needs an overhaul. Throw spines is fan-freaking-tastic on a stalker, but the rest of the set is clunky and low damage. -
Quote:Personally, I've been playing a stalker of late, and when staff comes out I will be leveling a new one. You might not see my khelds for a whileOriginally Posted by _Relikk_
I've been in the SG for a couple of weeks now, and it's sure quiet around there. Most of the big names that I was excited about playing with when I joined are missing-in-action. Is everyone just hibernating until staff-fighting comes out?
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Quote:I agree it should be tested, and if it turns out to be 400+ dps, that is probably a problem (though two brute sets are up there already, which is a bigger issue IMO). We will see. Regardless, Stalker MA and all version of EM are not performing on even footing.Originally Posted by Reppu
Of course they're just a theory. Theories are not proofs, ever. Hell, most of modern science is a theory, but a commonly accepted one. Until it is field-tested, it is a theory. A powerful theory due to the nature of Pylon Tests being just executed math, but still a theory.
In THEORY, Street Justice will be performing well above the next step up. This is bad, so it is a theory that NEEDS to be tested. If only because Martial Arts probably shouldn't be losing to anything due to, well, it sacrificed everything for Single Target.
Is this an issue? Not a MASSIVE one, but outliers always need to be kept under a careful gaze. -
Quote:You are comparing estimated guesses (however well-informed) at their upper limits to demonstrated data points not necessarily even optimized nor in an ideal situation. Apples to orangutans. I know for a fact that top scrapper time that the street justice build just out-dpsed could be higher, because it was my build and has room for improvements.Originally Posted by Reppu
And I'm saying that if you include a margin of error with all the years of gathered info, it is not illogical, nor impossible, to go purely off math. In fact, I did that with Beast Mastery on beta, and people called me out for it. (Although I did field testing, which I regretted since I was, you know, positive.)
I ended up being right and not a SINGLE person has spoken up since then. So, I know what I'm talking about. IF there is a long basis of trial and error and you have sufficient data and information, you CAN base performance purely off of numeric testing, and not field. Is Field Testing superior? Of course it is.
But writing off anything else is just ignorant, ESPECIALLY with Pylon Tests.
I'm also well aware Stalkers aren't terribly beating Scrappers, and I'm not saying they were. But it's still pretty early in Stalker 3.0's lifetime. We'll have to Wait and See.
Although I still totally support the AS normalization.
If your beast mastery estimate turned out to be accurate, good for you; that does not mean all estimations of this nature can be taken as fact. I say this as someone who does calculations all the time; I am not saying you do not know what you are doing, or that Auroxis does not, but that these things must be taken as interesting theory and nothing more unless proven otherwise. -
Quote:Hold on, I need to stop you here. Regardless of who the poster is, it is foolhardy to consider calculated dps as actual dps. There are too many possibilities of either an error in calculation or forgetting to take all variables into account. This is not to say I think Auroxis's calculations are off, because they usually corroborate my own. You should only use actual dps times until Auroxis actually gets the numbers for said build in practice.Originally Posted by Reppu
My apologies. I forgot Auroxis is known for making err- wait. You know better than to say someone else is wrong just because they didn't post a video on it. If Auroxis says his StJ build is 450 Theoretical if he doesn't miss Crushing Uppercuts, and is at least 400 DPS in a worse-case scenario, you can't deny that unless you can prove otherwise because pylons are simple math tests. And yes, that's 450 DPS In a perfect scenario where Crushing Uppercut and Assassin's Strike aren't being picky. Which is why its 420 with margin for error, and 400 if everything keeps going wrong, last I checked.
Ask Auroxis yourself.
Your response?
Aside from that, I am only halfway through this thread, but I would like to point out that the top dps stalker build so far has only outdone the top dps scrapper build by about 3 dps (and that's an older scrapper build, before ATOs).