Memphis_Bill

Now, since Geko has effectively threadjacked this with his complaints about people being given instructions on how to search, let's see what he has to say about the rest of the cut and paste, with the arguments that typically come up.

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However, your claim is STILL incorrect that, with "subject and body" as you posted, that this is the only post. Are you at 1 week, or 1 year? 1 week will give only this post.


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I never said that. I said:

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Hmmm... and I got 6 different threads...

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If I search "in subject and body" I get 200. Nevertheless, I don't get anything recent other than this one.

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I've always been fair. What I was pointing out was that search is flighty at best. Using your instructions, you come up with nothing. Using "in subject and body" requires you to spend some time sifting through older posts, which you can't necro anyway and not run afoul of the rules.

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Just scanning the *titles* should be enough. Vehicle pops up in several. "Burn rubber?" Where else is that typically mentioned other than in relation to vehicles - possibly racing, but that's still likely vehicle related?

The point is, even without "necroing" them, the person can read them and see the prior arguments - which, yes, I summarize in my cut and paste replies. They can see the problems that are brought up, the ideas to get around them, see if they apply, and revise their OWN idea potentially to see if they have a new twist on it. They can even address the individual points that come up.

The cut-and-paste itself has evolved over time with an example of "possible" ways of vehicle-like travel. It is not, and is never meant to BE, the be-all, end-all, final word on the subject, and I have never claimed it to be such. It is a reference, and a shortcut so the exact same discussions don't happen time and time again. The document is meant to be informative and educational. And that, so I'm told by people who *read* it and PM me - no, not the "S&I Regulars" as you put it, but usually people posting the ideas - is a successful goal.

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Did the exact search Bill described just now, even copy-pasted his search terms. Got only one thread. This one. BS indeed. Ignore these folks, but be thankful, they're bumping your thread.

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Edit: Point. That search needs to mention body, because of the way posts about vehicles are mentioned. That said, do the vehicle search.

Screen capture of my search screen with those exact terms.

Results screen, with EXACTLY the results I said.

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You said above:

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4. Click the "In subject" radio button. This is a search, not a cute blonde in a bikini. Here, you want to ignore the body.

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Now you didn't click that button when you searched. I did. As you instructed. And came up with one post. Your search terms don't have the button clicked. But then, I don't expect an apology from you either.

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You'll note the edit above, removing that comment. Which is even in your quote.

(Which I would have removed anyway, since it was unfair to say the least - I'm irritated by someone else flat out calling me a liar for doing precisely what he said he couldn't do, and snapped because of it. I rarely agree with you, but you didn't deserve to have that pointed at you. So expect or not, yes, you are getting an apology from me for that. You didn't deserve to get snapped at like that, and I'm sorry for doing so.)

However, your claim is STILL incorrect that, with "subject and body" as you posted, that this is the only post. Are you at 1 week, or 1 year? 1 week will give only this post.

Results following the exact directions, with "Vehicle."

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Did the exact search Bill described just now, even copy-pasted his search terms. Got only one thread. This one. BS indeed. Ignore these folks, but be thankful, they're bumping your thread.

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Edit: Point. That search needs to mention body, because of the way posts about vehicles are mentioned, IF searching on "Cycle." Typically, it does come up under "Vehicle" however. That said, do the vehicle search.

Screen capture of my search screen with those exact terms.

Results screen, with EXACTLY the results I said.

That said, the EXACT search mentioned in that post (of +vehicle) STILL shows up with three unique threads.

CTF - or more PVP "games" in general.... sure.

Problem with the first type is getting enough people to start.

The second, I'd reset about as often as Siren's Call zone control is.

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Searching Effectively

1. Click on "Search" up at the top of the forum.
2. On the left, under "Forum(s) to search," select "Suggestions and ideas."
3. On the right, Keyword Search Terms. This is probably where your problem was if you did search. Try the following, exactly as typed:

+vehicle -"re: "

This will search for anything with the string "vehicle" in the title.The -re: portion of it removes replies, so you'll see the root of every thread that comes up, letting you see just how many threads there are on this. (The last helps for other subjects, as well.)

Be sure to put the space between the colon and last quote.

4. Click the "In subject" radio button. This is a search, not a cute blonde in a bikini. Here, you want to ignore the body.

5. Leave Username Search blank.

6. Date range, Newer Than, change the 1 to a 3, and the time to Months.

7. Result format doesn't matter. Click on "Submit."


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Just out of curiosity, I did this, added the additional search terms "car", "cycle", "jet" and looked for all posts within a year. Found nothing. Certainly not enough for anyone to post to the thread and not be accused of necro-posting.

Posters: Please ignore the advice to search first. Just check the most recent 200 or so topics. Search on this terrible forum software is too funky and the anti-suggestion forces will just tell you you're beating a dead horse anyway.

Anti-S&I cabal (you know who you are) - Is it so hard to just explain why you think it is or isn't a good idea. I'm not saying you have to agree with everything posted here, I know I don't. But take the time to make an argument.

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So, you didn't follow the instructions, and got a different result. Wow. Imagine that.

And posters: If you look in the forum rules, you'll see a specific directive to search first. Please disregard EG in this instance.

EG: You searched on Cycle, one year? Funny, I just did.

Search terms:
Suggestions and Ideas.
1 year
+Cycle -"re: "

Relevant results, other than this thread:

Burn Rubber
Vehicles as travel powers
Powers based upon Origin
Travel power 'secondary toggle'
Misc power pool
A small suggestion


And that's the first of two pages. So... BS, EG.

Or, y'know, some of us give information to educate them how to do so as well.

For the OP, this does two things - one, tell you what you could search on (and how to do so effectively!) and two, let you see some of the arguments we've had over the years. It does alter as good/alternate ideas/discussion come up (like the last section.) Use the info, consider and possibly refine your suggestion.

Disclaimer

Yes. This is a cut and paste reply that I keep handy, as well as a quick bit of instruction on how to search. Neither are meant to cause fights or to be insulting. The search instructions are in, not just because forum rules say flat out to search, but to help you and anyone else reading this use the search tool effectively.

The body of the cut and paste reply is the way it is because we've seen these arguments numerous times before. They're a summary of the salient points that come up each time. They are not here to insult you, make you feel stupid or otherwise "bring you down a peg." Instead, they are meant as instruction and information. Please read through the points and the explanation behind them to see the issues that are commonly brought up in response. They may not always match your suggestion 100% - in fact, you may have explained around one or two of them - but they're there for consideration and refinement of your idea.

Yes, I do look forward to the time, with some of these suggestions, that someone not only addresses all the points, but does so exceptionally well. It'll probably be added to the end of the cut/paste reply, with credit. For now, though, read and consider the points. They really are just there to help you, and move discussion along to help ideas evolve.

If you're going to see this and say an "evil forum vet is just shooting down your idea," or "You think you're the last word because of your post count," you're wrong. Heck, if you say the second, you've just worried more about my post count than I have in the last four plus years. Tongue-in-cheek comments in here are meant as humor, not put downs.

Searching Effectively

1. Click on "Search" up at the top of the forum.
2. On the left, under "Forum(s) to search," select "Suggestions and ideas."
3. On the right, Keyword Search Terms. This is probably where your problem was if you did search. Try the following, exactly as typed:

+vehicle -"re: "

This will search for anything with the string "vehicle" in the title.The -re: portion of it removes replies, so you'll see the root of every thread that comes up, letting you see just how many threads there are on this. (The last helps for other subjects, as well.)

Be sure to put the space between the colon and last quote.

4. Click the "In subject" radio button. This is a search, not a cute blonde in a bikini. Here, you want to ignore the body.

5. Leave Username Search blank.

6. Date range, Newer Than, change the 1 to a 3, and the time to Months.

7. Result format doesn't matter. Click on "Submit."

The subject at hand: Vehicles.
Vehicles as travel powers. This gets brought up a lot.

Short answer, don't expect it.

Long answer:
There are a lot of problems with the idea.

1. Movement.

Forward and back,even turning - ok. But you can do things that a vehicle can't - such as strafe (direct side to side or angular movement.) It doesn't work with a vehicle. There are also issues such as drift and "realistic" handling. We can go side to side, as mentioned, and make immediate right angle turns. Cars... not so much.

2. Movement, part 2.

Go stand in the road. No, not you personally. Take your character out and stand in the road, if you're heroside. Or even in the path of civilians. What happens? You get pushed. While not as big an issue with a motorcycle, perhaps, a car would have issues. What happens if two cars meet head on - yours and an NPC, or yours and another player's? Do you just pass through each other? Would you be satisfied with that very odd result? Or would you get stuck? How about those NPCs, can they walk and push your car, or are they walking through it? Neither answer is very satisfying, and intelligent, dynamic pathing is too computationally expensive.

3. Terrain.

Not every place has roads, or even makes sense for "off roading." Go look at Founder's Falls. Go look at Crey's Folley. Or Eden. Try to get to the north islands in Talos. What, do you have a kubelwagen? Look at the Pit in Sharkshead. Try to use your travel power (car) to get up to some of the doorways in high caves. Cars and motorcycles would be more like Superspeed - horizontal movement, period. And look - I'll be blunt - flat out *stupid* tied with, say, Combat Jumping or Superjump.

4. Combat.

You get ambushed on the way. How do you fight? Just have your powers blast out of the rolled up windows? How do you buff or debuff? EVERY power would need a new animation. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. Then you want people with motorcycles instead of cars. Redo ALL the animations AGAIN. And they still wouldn't make sense - how do you use Footstomp in a car? Or Stalagmites?

5. Customizing.

Yeah, it would come up. Not everyone would want a sports car, or a mid-70s Buick boat, or an exotic, or a minivan, or whatever else.

6. Making "sense."

This was touched on in terrain - how do you get across water? How about the Shadow Shard? And if you want downright ridiculous looking, go do the heroside 25-34 Respec. Look at the Sky Skiffs inside of rooms or the reactor room. It makes no sense and looks *ridiculous.* Something that, yes, the devs try to avoid.

That's just a quick overview of why vehicles as generally envisioned aren't a spectacular idea for a travel power.

Further discussion

This I think merits a bit of extra commentary, honestly.

"Vehicles" covers a lot of different ground for different people. Some only consider cars/jets/motorcycles vehicles. Others add jetpacks, wings and the like. Much of the above considers cars and similar sized vehicles, with nods to motorcycle type vehicles.

Jetpacks and such, I don't see happening as travel powers. As costume options for Flight? Or as invented pieces that interact with Fly, similar to wings? Absolutely - but they don't need to be a separate travel power for that. I'm all for more jetpack and wing (or combination) designs. Besides, there are so many "temp" jetpacks, I don't see introducing yet another one as really being feasable - just my opinion.

But vehicles - cars, specifically - as a travel power, have issues.

One way to have them "somewhat" work.

For all that, I know some people *would* still like to pull up in front of a mission. So how do we do it?

A temporary power, based on the same tech from the Mac/Valkyrie pack Mission Teleporter. The temporary power would:

(a) be an invention - dropping from enemies. (A reward, because you saved... well, we'll get to that,)

(b) be a single use each time - you can only hold one at a time, not one of each, one total.

(c) use rarely used salvage, because... it's rarely used, and cheap. No Luck Charms here.

(d) come in multiple varieties.

How does this get around the various issues?

<ul type="square">[*]Terrain - It doesn't pass terrain. It just arrives.[*]It follows the same 'rules' as the mission teleporter - it's not indoors, doesn't go to contacts, etc. Just mission doors. [*]Customizing - It's not "your" vehicle. It's a temp power. You've called a cab, limo, or other transport.[*]Power animation - since you're skipping the space in between, no powers can be used 'til you arrive anyway. [/list]
The varieties?
<ul type="square">[*] Limo: Stereotypical slightly stretched black limo.[*] Checker cab: The classic yellow cab. [*] Alien "drop pod" thing. Just for giggles. [*] Burrower - Think mole machine, but not quite. [/list]Now, part of the issue with these are still animating your character getting in or out. How do we deal with these?

In: Who cares. You teleport away. We copy the Mission Teleporter power. Not as "cool," but less intensive to work on. And you can use it to leave from inside the mission, SG base, Pocket D or wherever. It's an MMORPg. RP that you called a cab.

Exiting: You don't get animated.
- Limo: Pulls up. NPC driver gets out, opens door, flashes (or just bright light) from inside (think papparazi or some such.) You appear.
- Cab: It's an old cab. It pulls up in a cloud of exhaust when it stops. When the exhaust cloud clears, you're there.
- Alien drop pod - *Plop* - Steam - It dissolves, you're there.
- Burrower - Pops "out of the ground," releases steam, you're there and it's back underground.

(Refinement of temp power idea from discussion with DragunBlud, among others.)

Oh, wait, just to get this out of the way:

NO! Wouldn't work, can't happen, dev time, money, who cares about Champs, power customization, and RP!

... there. Contractural argument against covered. (What, you think Forum Cartel-ing is easy?)

Now with that done - hmm, water, jungle... Now I want a full glass wall. And stuff animated outside of it. We know they have sharks...

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And besides. If she's been dragging around a big honking sword for 40 levels, she's probably pretty fit.

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... honestly, other than ceremonial swords, most swords really aren't that heavy. And they're balanced to make use much easier, typically with the balance point at the hilt. Claymores, I see a weight (doing some quick searches) of about 5 lb. Broadswords, 2-4 lb. One link.

Now, USING it... that I can see. &gt;.&lt;

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How does making a team in just a few minutes from login prove it's "harder?"

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But that's DIFFERENT! Bill is a FORUM CARTEL member. And thus, everything happens in a snap because of his post count here!!

It couldn't POSSIBLY be because he looked for a team, quickly, not picky, around the right level range, decided what to do, ran and did it, and had fun.

Because only forum cartel people can do that.

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This is actually true. Whenever a Forum Cartel member logs on, all of the non-cartel people on the server recieve a tell:

[forumname] THE ALMIGHTY has logged on. Quiver, ye mortals!

And if we're unlucky enough to be in the same zone as them when they log on, we all recieve a 30 minute debuff called "In the Presence of Greatness". It's only cleared if we get a group invite from the Cartel member.

So you see, Forum Cartel members most definitely have an advantage when forming teams.

*sigh*, seven minutes left on my debuff...

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Sorry about that. Though, honestly, mine says "The Ineffable."

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Bill - 2:54 PM, "I have a team." No mention of when he logged on to Freedom, but mentions 3 minutes and waiting for replies.


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Part of the delay was me playing my Dark/Dark scrapper (without stamina, and doing fine at 22, thanks) on Pinnacle.

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Camera points wouldnt make sense tho for the reason of where your windows are placed

if i placed a window and had a camera point looking at capitol building in one window. i could have a camera point looking at a building 2000 feet away from the capitol building in the window right next to it. wich would be more like security cameras on a t.v. then looking out a window

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Thinking more of "underground" bases and a security system in that case, so that's quite apt Since not all bases would be in a building above ground.

Similar things have been suggested, but I don't think I've seen this sort of mechanic in the idea.

Ideally, the "map" would be bigger than any base *anyway* (and somewhat logical - either that, or "monitors" with camera points for underground type bases) so you're not looking out of windows where there's actually, say, a big empty park on the map itself.

I don't know what it'd be like lagwise, either. I *suspect,* though, that if they ever did anything like this, we'd just get pre-rendered "points" we're looking at, instead of a map overlay.

Interesting way of trying to lay it out though.

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Honestly? I'm hoping Going Rogue breaks the 'no teaming, no friending, no trading' ban between sides. I'd love to have a Supergroup base that members on both sides of the pond can enter. Just make it so only Neutrals and Heroes can use Hero Teleporter locations and only neutrals and villains can use Villain zone teleporters.

-Rachel-

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FWIW, I do believe Posi mentioned merging the markets - so removing the other barriers, well...

And I wish I'd seen the rest of this earlier, I'd have saved you a run to the D. Tested that *long* ago - no cross-faction level pants. Er, pacts.

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...I am curious as to why you left that typo in. Amused, but curious!

Still, it was a good excuse to get rollin' today.

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It was, of course, intentional.

As a side note, there's a pond in Grandville that lets you do this, that's older than Cimerora. West wall. Only clear pond around.

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Bill! You changed your avatar! o.O

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Yes, yes I did.

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Awesome work. The question remains: Will DrainBamage pick up your dry-cleaning bill?

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I don't have any dry clea... oh, wait, there's no comma there.

Well, you CAN just remove laser beam eyes from the tray...

Or go with Leadership. Yeah, another toggle, I know... but more of the "harder to hit" and "hits harder" fits, too, doesn't it?

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I believe the topic has switched from people discussing their personal experiences on the Freedom server some time span prior (X months/issues ago) to now to that of waffles.

I enjoy all manner of waffle myself, but prefer belgian style, not always with accouterments either. Butter, I feel, is not necessary for the enjoyment of waffles or pancakes for that matter.

If we could do a find and replace on this entire thread against "forming a team" and implement "making waffles" the entire thing would make more sense.

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So, is it waffles or pancakes? And do you count such things as crepes and potato pancakes? We should be specific here.

And do we go into side discussions on toppings? I had someone try to give me pecan-topped waffles once. Now, I like pecans. Love pecan pie. But as a topping on a waffle, it just didn't work for me.

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Should just give you a temp power based on your origin. The tech people get a short duration raptor pack, etc. Science / Natural get an energy drink or something that makes them run faster for awhile. Magic get a short range teleport power. Mutation, I'm not quite sure there lol.

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Can I just say "My usual origin-based power objection" and leave it at that?

(Though, honestly, as easy as it is to get packs and such, I don't see even this being needed. I'd like to see more variation in the available temp powers/packs/etc. of course.)

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Honestly? I'm hoping Going Rogue breaks the 'no teaming, no friending, no trading' ban between sides. I'd love to have a Supergroup base that members on both sides of the pond can enter. Just make it so only Neutrals and Heroes can use Hero Teleporter locations and only neutrals and villains can use Villain zone teleporters.

-Rachel-

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FWIW, I do believe Posi mentioned merging the markets - so removing the other barriers, well...

And I wish I'd seen the rest of this earlier, I'd have saved you a run to the D. Tested that *long* ago - no cross-faction level pants. Er, pacts.

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'Cause swapping costumes takes up memory. Not just for you but for everyone else nearby. A person could, theoretically, hot-swap their costumes fast enough to overload someone else's RAM with each change, causing a system crash.

-Rachel-

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I'm pretty sure this is the reason for the 30 second delay - though I wouldn't mind seeing that reduced some (say, 15 seconds.)

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Off topic.

B_I said this:

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One of your ignorees is one of the worst flamers on these forums, who has been Ignored by me since the first week I signed up.

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I'm wondering how she managed to put herself on her ignore list.

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I admit, I LOL'ed

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*nod*

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LOL!!! You obviously didn't read it well enough. I said I was already on a team.

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So you were already on a team, and I still put one together and ran it faster than you. Hmmm.
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It was just tougher to find a team than it used to be, compare and contrast.

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Let me repeat:

"I've been here four years. It is not tougher now than it was then." My experience speaking.

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Also note that Bill's toon was lvl 25 and what lvl 22 wouldnt jump on that team?

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I didn't advertise my level. I said, almost verbatim, "Low to mid 20s mission team forming, want in?" And got people, as you so carefully IGNORED, from 22-25.

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Besides, Bill is gonna say whatever the hell comes to his mind like the rest of you dudes.

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No, I have no reason to lie. I gave my experience EXACTLY as it was. Even a play by play. But if that's not enough, I did anticipate that a small minded git like you might say some such thing:

Here's the team list, partway through the arc. First brute dropped, second brute and mastermind added.
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Credible? I think not.

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You calling me a *liar,* there, sonny? I'd call that a personal attack.

I did PRECISELY what you said, made a team faster than you, and probably ran it *better* than you.


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I am not talking about every moment of every single day, I am talking about SOMETIMES!!! but overall, it is harder to find a team than it was 4 months ago on the Freedom Server, if you do not play freedom server often, just shut up. Epic Fail on your part my friend.

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There's a story from a long time ago. Tell me if you get the point.

Long ago, the French - not all that fond of the English longbowmen - threatened to maim them by cutting off a specific finger if they were captured. Well, obviously the longbowmen weren't fond of this. So after the English defeated the French (with an army made up mostly of longbowmen) at Agincourt, they made it a point to show them their unmaimed hand and yell "See? We can still pluck yew!"

So, Ares?

Pluck yew. You're not worth the pixels on the screen to me. And I know EXACTLY what your problem is - and your'e about to have it apply to a few more accounts, who will never see your messages.

&lt;-- not big on numbers, but I don't see them being way out of whack.