Acrobatic Power Pool

How about this.

Adrenal Boost: Click power on a Long timer. Short Duration +Runspeed +jump +recharge. Similar to the increase in speed of toggling Sprint with a +15% recharge to all powers. Backloaded end cost to give it a micro-crash.

Quickfoot: Toggle power, very low end cost. +Runspeed +res Slow +Def (same as combat jumping)

Acrobatics: Toggle power +Run Speed +Jump Speed +Jump Height +Def. Roughly equivalent to 3 slotted Swift and Hurdle as it's base, with a decent +Def mod. Higher than that of Flight or Superspeed, for example, since you're moving more slowly than Flight -and- you're still vertically limited.

Rush: Click power with a -long- recharge. +Run Speed +Jump Speed +Jump Height +Recharge +Def. The defense would be in the range of 3-7% (Based on AT) with a massive run speed and jump speed increase. These parts of the power would last for 1 minute with a crash at the end (not a full crash, but backloaded end cost) however the +Recharge would be somewhere on the scale of +1000% recharge for 5 seconds.

I think it'd be a fun pool to have, and I know I'd take it on at least 3 of my characters (All 4 powers)

-Rachel-

Hmmmm....

First thought was that it might be a bit low for that first end crash, but Hasten as I recall does that as well... so not really an issue.

I'd rename Quickfoot (IO set) and Acrobatics (Leaping pool) obviously, but that's minor.

Think I'd have to see numbers, but I could see trying to shoehorn this into my Bane (who relies on Mental Training, swift, hurdle, and sprint to get around.) >.>

See my Guides and Tutorials

Well let's see!

Sprint gives you a .5 increase to your run speed (+50%) while Swift gives you a .35 (+35%) to run -and- fly. Meanwhile hurdle grants a 1.245 (+124.5%) to jump speed and 1.668 (+166.8%) to height. Now these are all unmodified numbers.

So! Adrenal Boost would be a short duration click granting a +50% run speed/fly speed bonus for a short time. 45 seconds? 1 Minute? It would also grant a 15% recharge rate boost. That still puts it well under the marks of awesome that are Siphon Speed (+297% run speed) and doesn't infringe on Speed Boost, either. (+50% to recharge)

Quickfoot (I just don't have another name for it at the moment) would be a run/fly speed equivalent of Combat Jumping. So a slight defense buff, a buff to slow resistance (as opposed to immobilize) and an insanely low end cost (.03/sec)

Acrobatics (Still needs a new name! >_&lt on the other hand would be pushing the borders. It would start out with a +70% run and fly speed increase, as well as a 300% Jump speed increase (as 3 slotted hurdle gives you). It's still WELL under the 2700% increase to jump speed that Super Jump gives.

I'd also like to suggest that Acrobatics users gain a Defense buff on a slightly higher scale than that of hover or Combat Jumping.

Meanwhile Rush would -probably- give you all of the movement rate increase of Acrobatics without the toggle's end cost and WITH the 5 second 1,000% recharge rate to all (affectable) powers. I'd then suggest making Rush be unaffected by recharge enhancements or powers.

Combined with Swift and Hurdle the Acrobatics Set (as I've outlined it) would -almost- border on Super-speed, grant some defense instead of stealth, and increase the character's recharge a -little-. However it would cost 6 powers. Worth it?

For several of my characters: Oh Heck YEAH! =-3

With Numbers: Good or Bad?
-Rachel-

<-- not big on numbers, but I don't see them being way out of whack.

See my Guides and Tutorials

Freem! =-3

Anyone else?

-Rachel-

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Freem! =-3

Anyone else?

-Rachel-

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How does it fulfill any role that Leaping + Fitness doesn't already fulfill? I don't see how it does.

In order to figure out how the powers compare numbers wise, you'd need to provide more info. You need to give Adrenal Boost (which probably needs a name change because of the similarity to Empathy:Adrenaline Boost) its duration to go with its recharge time to calculate up time. Combat Jumping costs .065 end/sec, not .03 (the cost is .0325 end every .5 seconds). The +recharge cap is only 400%, which means that Rush is going to be wasted, especially since you only want it to be a 5 second duration.

Personally, my biggest problem is that I don't see what it accomplishes honestly. You don't like having to take Fitness and Leaping in order to have an acrobatic character (which is what Leaping is supposed to signify anyway), is that it? Doesn't really seem like that big of an issue to me.

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Freem! =-3

Anyone else?

-Rachel-

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How does it fulfill any role that Leaping + Fitness doesn't already fulfill? I don't see how it does.

In order to figure out how the powers compare numbers wise, you'd need to provide more info. You need to give Adrenal Boost (which probably needs a name change because of the similarity to Empathy:Adrenaline Boost) its duration to go with its recharge time to calculate up time. Combat Jumping costs .065 end/sec, not .03 (the cost is .0325 end every .5 seconds). The +recharge cap is only 400%, which means that Rush is going to be wasted, especially since you only want it to be a 5 second duration.

Personally, my biggest problem is that I don't see what it accomplishes honestly. You don't like having to take Fitness and Leaping in order to have an acrobatic character (which is what Leaping is supposed to signify anyway), is that it? Doesn't really seem like that big of an issue to me.

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Well... It fits the niche of 'Natural' travel power. It's Robin's Travel Power. As well as dozens of 'Street Level' heroes.

As for the Recharge cap being 400% I was well aware. The 1000% makes sure that you can't possibly be 'slowed' through the 5 second burst of recharge. Say: By player made NPCs with Carrion Creepers. Similar to the Knockback Set IO which gives a percentage chance of increasing your recharge by: 1000%

As for what it can do that Leaping can't: Increase your recharge rates of powers. What can they do that fitness can't: Get you going -really- fast.

However a player -could- simply take this set as opposed to Fitness to get around. And with 2 toggles and 2 clicks it fits into the 'classic' setup for a travel pool.

=-3

-Rachel-

QR

I'm all for an Acrobatics pool, but I think it needs to be cooler visually whatever the mechanics are. Sabertooth in XMO: Wolverine being a good start for what it should look like. I fear that technically it's too difficult, but I don't see this as worth doing unless it's done right.

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Well... It fits the niche of 'Natural' travel power. It's Robin's Travel Power. As well as dozens of 'Street Level' heroes.

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So power pools should be made for specific origin niches? Once again, Robin most likely just has the Fitness and Leaping pools independent of the other. Adding a specific "Acrobatic" movement method doesn't add anything new to the game. You can move identically to the method you're suggesting simply by taking Hurdle and Combat Jumping.

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As for the Recharge cap being 400% I was well aware. The 1000% makes sure that you can't possibly be 'slowed' through the 5 second burst of recharge. Say: By player made NPCs with Carrion Creepers. Similar to the Knockback Set IO which gives a percentage chance of increasing your recharge by: 1000%

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For 5 seconds? What's the point, especially considering any activation time? 5 seconds of capped recharge every 2 minutes requiring activation is a minuscule benefit. The only powers that would get any real benefit would be attack powers that are already going to recharge in a second or 2 anyway.

By the way, the Force Feedback proc isn't +1000% recharge. It's +100% recharge. There isn't any precedent in-game for +recharge on that scale, not even in Adrenalin Boost (which is the largest player generated +rech buff, iirc, at +100%).

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As for what it can do that Leaping can't: Increase your recharge rates of powers. What can they do that fitness can't: Get you going -really- fast.

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The question that I posed is what does the power pool do that the combination of the other 2 pools doesn't already do in any noticeable manner. The amount of +recharge in the set is tiny. A 15% +recharge clone of Hasten and a power that grants capped recharge for all of 5 seconds every 2 minutes? That's not any marked increase in +recharge. That's less than an LotG +rech IO for most people.

How is your proposed acrobatic movement method different enough from the combination of the 2 pre-existing power pools Fitness and Leaping? It's not. It's the exact movement method accomplished by taking the small but cheap increases to horizontal movement. It's not markedly different.

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However a player -could- simply take this set as opposed to Fitness to get around. And with 2 toggles and 2 clicks it fits into the 'classic' setup for a travel pool.

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Actually, the 2 of the major travel power pools have 3 toggles and 1 click power (Leaping and Flight). Speed has 2 click powers and 2 toggles. Teleport has 4 click powers. There isn't any specific definition of a "classic" setup, and Teleport would probably be considered a distinct outlier considering.

=-(

Robin probably has the fitness pool, all things considered. Same with Batman. However an Acrobatic set could have flashy moves and other awesomeness.

Power Pools should not be set up specifically for origins, no. However a natural human character cannot superjump, fly, teleport, or use superspeed without picking up outside equipment or casting a spell (which are outside of the origin of the specific character in question)

Should that character be limited solely to sprint/swift/hurdle? Would it make the game at all better to add a new set in?

Personally I say yes, it would make the game better to have a new 'travel power' pool.

And 5 Seconds at 400% recharge drops a 25 second recharge power (KO Blow) down to a what recharge? 2, 3 seconds? I know a 48% recharge drops the recharge on KO Blow from 25 down to 16.89....

Though you -are- correct on the Force Feedback recharge. Don't know why I thought it was 1,000%

And yes. 2 other pools can admirably handle exactly what it does. However popping Superspeed and Superjump both -far- outdo Swift and Hurdle. So should we get rid of the Health pool? Or remove those two powers from the Health pool?

And while it might not be markedly different to you, Umbral, the single pool doing what would otherwise require 2 (or more) pools keeps me from having to -take- 2 pools, thus locking out other pools I might want and costing me more powers.

-Rachel-

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And while it might not be markedly different to you, Umbral, the single pool doing what would otherwise require 2 (or more) pools keeps me from having to -take- 2 pools, thus locking out other pools I might want and costing me more powers.

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And that's pretty much the only reason to put it in game, which isn't a very good reason at all.

Keep in mind that there is a recharge cap of +400%, or 1/5 the time. (A 100s recharge, f'rex, cannot go below 20s.)

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Originally Posted by Dispari I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.

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Keep in mind that there is a recharge cap of +400%, or 1/5 the time. (A 100s recharge, f'rex, cannot go below 20s.)

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I believe Rachel and I both already addressed this. You know, 5 posts back.

Also, to address your comment as to how much recharge would actually affect powers within that time frame, check it.

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And 5 Seconds at 400% recharge drops a 25 second recharge power (KO Blow) down to a what recharge? 2, 3 seconds? I know a 48% recharge drops the recharge on KO Blow from 25 down to 16.89....

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Recharge time is equal to (original time)/(1 + recharge)

KO Blow (base 25 secs) with 48% +recharge would is reduced to 16.891 seconds (as you said). At recharge cap (400%), the recharge would be reduced to 5 seconds (25/(1+4.00) = 5). The problem with this, for such a short duration, is that the actual additional benefit is so minor. The only powers that would have any noticeable affect would be short recharge powers. Any leftover recharge is calculated by on a percentage basis (re: leftover buffed recharge in seconds/buffed recharge time*unbuffed recharge time = remaining recharge when the buff drops).

Because most players are already packing impressive amounts of +recharge via enhancements, set bonuses, and other powers, the actual benefit is going to be significantly less than 400% and the short duration of the buff is only going to affect "big" powers like Unstoppable (1000 sec recharge) isn't going to be that impressive.

Consider: Unstoppable slotted for 95% +recharge via enhancements and 50% from global benefits (Hasten? Wha?). The recharge would be reduced to 408.1 seconds. The recharge time while at capped recharge would be 250 seconds. To calculate the "real" recharge (assuming only a single application of the buff within the time frame), it's pretty simple. 245/250*408.1 = 399.9 seconds. That's an 8.2 second benefit. Not particularly impressive.

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And 5 Seconds at 400% recharge drops a 25 second recharge power (KO Blow) down to a what recharge? 2, 3 seconds? I know a 48% recharge drops the recharge on KO Blow from 25 down to 16.89....

[/ QUOTE ] 1/5 of 25 seconds is 5 seconds, btw. The more recharge you have, the less each extra percentage point gives.

RechargeTime = BaseRechargeTime / ( 1 + Enhancement )





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Keep in mind that there is a recharge cap of +400%, or 1/5 the time. (A 100s recharge, f'rex, cannot go below 20s.)

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I believe Rachel and I both already addressed this. You know, 5 posts back.

[/ QUOTE ]And I was pointing out that Rachel was still not grasping what it means. KO Blow's 25 second recharge would not recharge in 2 or 3 seconds, because the cap of +rech means a minimum of 1/5 the time...or five seconds.

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Originally Posted by Dispari I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.

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And while it might not be markedly different to you, Umbral, the single pool doing what would otherwise require 2 (or more) pools keeps me from having to -take- 2 pools, thus locking out other pools I might want and costing me more powers.

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And that's pretty much the only reason to put it in game, which isn't a very good reason at all.

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In other words concept and customization should be set aside due to time constraints? What, exactly, is the reason -not- to put it in the game? Because you -can- have something similar?

Well shoot! Why'd villains get Pain Domination if they already had Thermal? It's the only other Non-Empathy set in the game with an AoE and a Single target heal. Just pick up the Medicine pool and you're golden, right?

Why'd we get Willpower? It's functionally similar to both Regen and Invulnerability. Just Pick up Health And Stamina on an Invuln!

Katana? It's just Broadsword with different animations. Go ahead and cut it!

Dual Blades? We've already got 2 sword sets in the game! Why Bother?

Just because you can 'equate' powers doesn't mean they are adequate.

A) It's a new power pool, which will draw attention, might force some respecs, and could wind up forcing alt-rolling. Which in turn means more time spent going from 1-50 and a net gain in monthly fees.

B) Not everyone WANTS to take Hasten or a metric ton of Sets. So your statement of 'Most Players' might or might not be true. Considering how few people use the market or forums (in relation to the overall population of the game) I'm leaning towards false.

C) It offers players an alternative to taking 2-3 different sets. Not a shining alternative, no, but an alternative which takes parts of each (Speed, Jumping, and Fitness)

D) It allows concept characters a different method of advancement based on player-designed restrictions. This is a Role Playing Game, so if a person wants to have an acrobatic martial artist who is merely at the peak of human perfection he no longer requires glowing fists of fire.

E) Consider the fact that short-recharge powers would basically recharge instantly on a 5 second 1000% recharge. It's been established that any 25 second or less power will recharge before the 5 seconds are up. So people could (Whether using Hasten and a ton of Set bonuses or not) could have most of their powers suddenly refresh to instantly usable, even if their recharge rate has been floored by slow-effects.

So there's 5 different reasons for it to go into the game. Is that enough reasons For puting it in the game, yet? I'm sure I could think up more.

-Rachel-

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And that's pretty much the only reason to put it in game, which isn't a very good reason at all.

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In other words concept and customization should be set aside due to time constraints? What, exactly, is the reason -not- to put it in the game? Because you -can- have something similar?

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No, what I'm saying is that there is no good reason to include a pool power set that is simply the bastardized combination of 3 existing pool power sets (Fitness, Leaping, and a bit of Speed if you really want to tote the minor +recharge).

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Well shoot! Why'd villains get Pain Domination if they already had Thermal? It's the only other Non-Empathy set in the game with an AoE and a Single target heal. Just pick up the Medicine pool and you're golden, right?

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Because it's a villain power set that differs not only in effect but also in theme and implementation. Your Acrobatics pool is already in game, only, instead of taking the 2-3 power pool choices you need to in order to get it, you want to have the devs create an entirely new power pool just so you don't have to.

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Why'd we get Willpower? It's functionally similar to both Regen and Invulnerability. Just Pick up Health And Stamina on an Invuln!

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How about maybe because you can't pick both Regen and Invulnerability? You seem to be ignoring that. Fitness + Invuln and Regen + Fighting don't have any resemblance to Willpower. Willpower is distinctly different in effect and in theme (unless you wanted to explain your Invuln or Regen character as doing all of that via Willpower).

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Katana? It's just Broadsword with different animations. Go ahead and cut it!

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Uhh... we started with them both, and, if you actually paid attention to numbers, you'd know that they also play very differently (now that they have different animations and animation times). They're only similar in the fact that they have similar powers at similar level tiers. They're nowhere near as similar as they used to be when the game first came out (re: they were made more different).

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Dual Blades? We've already got 2 sword sets in the game! Why Bother?

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Personally, that's my honest opinion that you just voiced, but, now that it's in game, I don't want them to take it out. I was curious as to why they were going to put in another weapon set when there were other more interesting and less thematically restrictive set possibilities out there (Psi Melee woo!). Now that it's in, it provides a distinctly different play style than any other melee set which is why it should stay. The combo system allows it to play like no other set can even get close to.

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Just because you can 'equate' powers doesn't mean they are adequate.

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Okay... I'm curious as to what you mean by this, especially since you've only used primary power sets to get your point across, and, even then, only melee primaries. You do realize that the pool power sets are different than the primary powers in their design, as well as their implementation and flavor, don't you? Or is it just that you have a character that you need 5 pool power choices to make at the moment and want to save on one by having a new power pool that does everything you need newly created?

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A) It's a new power pool, which will draw attention, might force some respecs, and could wind up forcing alt-rolling. Which in turn means more time spent going from 1-50 and a net gain in monthly fees.

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I really don't see how creating a new pool power is going to force alt rolling. If anything there would be respecs to account for people having the extra options, but, I doubt anyone would roll up a new character now that they have an acrobatics pool especially for them! Also, how are you going to force alt rolling, or is that simply another atrocious word choice?

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B) Not everyone WANTS to take Hasten or a metric ton of Sets. So your statement of 'Most Players' might or might not be true. Considering how few people use the market or forums (in relation to the overall population of the game) I'm leaning towards false.

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The point is that the game offers options. If you want to get more recharge, you need to either get Hasten or get IO sets (and oftentimes both). You don't have to powerbuild. What you're asking for is the right to powerbuild your character without being penalized for following the artificial constraints you're placing on yourself. Even Jack Emmert, oblivious to good game design mechanics as he was, knew that you shouldn't figure roleplay and player generated constraints on game design, because most people ignore them.

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C) It offers players an alternative to taking 2-3 different sets. Not a shining alternative, no, but an alternative which takes parts of each (Speed, Jumping, and Fitness)

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How is it any better than simply telling the player to take Leaping and Fitness if they want to do the sub-Super Leap? The devs have already said (in vehicle threads) that they're not going to create redundant methods of transportation (though that's reading a bit into it, I admit). Yours is redundant. That's the point you're not addressing.

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D) It allows concept characters a different method of advancement based on player-designed restrictions. This is a Role Playing Game, so if a person wants to have an acrobatic martial artist who is merely at the peak of human perfection he no longer requires glowing fists of fire.

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I'll point you straight back to my Jack Emmert comment. Player placed constraints should never be factored in to balance considerations. It may me a Role Playing game, but it's also a role playing Game. Games have rules. Rules need to be balanced. They are at the moment (insofar as this discussion is concerned, I've still got beefs with some systems). If you want work to be put in, you need to give decent reasons why the work should be done. "I want an acrobatic character that doesn't have to take Leaping or Fitness and gets recharge without taking Speed" isn't a very good one. It's simply a "gimme" argument.

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E) Consider the fact that short-recharge powers would basically recharge instantly on a 5 second 1000% recharge. It's been established that any 25 second or less power will recharge before the 5 seconds are up. So people could (Whether using Hasten and a ton of Set bonuses or not) could have most of their powers suddenly refresh to instantly usable, even if their recharge rate has been floored by slow-effects.

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And you do realize that means almost nothing when you factor in the fact that players already run with recharge in those powers? You're also ignoring the necessity of animation times which will eat into the effectiveness of it. You're assuming absolute best case for a very small subset of powers as a reason why the power should be put in. That's very flimsy reasoning.

And, by the way, it's not "instantly". It wouldn't be anywhere near that. A 5 second base recharge power used immediately as the effect went active (which isn't even possible considering animation time constraints) would recharge in 1 second. A 10 second base recharge power would recharge in 2 seconds. A 25 second base recharge power would recharge right as the effect was ending. 5 seconds is considerably longer than "instantly", especially when you're considering attacks and attack strings.

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So there's 5 different reasons for it to go into the game. Is that enough reasons For puting it in the game, yet? I'm sure I could think up more.

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And I'm sure they'd be just as flawed. You haven't given any decent arguments as to why it should be put in game.

<ul type="square">[*]The movement method is already in game (and show me an acrobat who isn't fit and skilled at jumping in real life anyways).
[*]The set itself isn't markedly different (and by "markedly", I'm using the definition of "in a strikingly noticeable or conspicuous manner" if its definition eludes you) from existing options. Of course, the options we have are more costly if you're going to artificially constrain yourself so as to disallow the greater benefits of the divergences, but that's player choice. The examples you gave of "similar" sets were either here when the game was first released (at which point, the difference between Katana and Broadsword is better considered an attempt at weapon customization than actual different sets), don't even apply (Invuln + fitness = WP? wtf?) or makes no sense (Thermal = Pain Domination? seriously, what the hell?).
[*] Additional player constraints exist outside of the normal bound of game balance and design and should be ignored for all intents and purposes, especially when they are done specifically to accomplish a specialized ideal that excludes pre-existing options thanks to arbitrary decisions of the player. This means there is no good mechanical or balance reason to think that you should get extra, specialized options just because you don't want to take certain pool powers.[/list]

After looking through your reasoning, Umbral, I find you're almost totally correct.

However we both disagree on a fundamental level what is and isn't 'worth' putting into the game. I happen to love 3 slotting swift, hurdle, quickness and other inherent or automatic movement powers. I -love- running about the battlefied quickly. And I'd love a powerset that caters to that. Even a power pool.

So again. I think it's a fundamental difference in our concepts of fun and we should just end our discourse at this point and let the thread die.

-Rachel-