Memphis_Bill

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Also note when you go to a mechanic for repairs, you're also paying for the parts used in the repairs.

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... which you're charged separately for. You are still charged for labor.
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In this case, there isn't even any actual "merchandise". Anybody can farm a mission or use the market to earn money. Anybody can reach lvl 50. But buying money and/or powerleveling saves people TIME, which is what makes it a service. They spent time doing it for you.

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The money is the merchandise. Just because you can earn it yourself doesn't change that. I can go to the river and catch fish myself, but that doesn't mean when I buy fish at the store it's not "merchandise".

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If you pay the neighbor kid to mow your lawn, what are you paying them for? Sure, a tiny bit of it goes for gas and what not, but you're paying them so YOU don't have to mow the lawn yourself. You are not paying for merchandise, you're paying for a service.

When you see some high school kids offering to wash your car and you decide to let them, are you paying for soap, water, etc.? The majority of it is for their time, for time YOU don't have to spend washing it. You're not paying for merchandise, you're paying for a service.

There are... I forget the term, I want to say concierge services, people who will take care of your chores and, in some cases, go shopping and such for you while you're at work. If you have one go out and buy gifts and such - yes, you pay for the gifts, but you also pay them for the time they take to do so. Time you didn't have to spend doing it. You're paying for a service.

When you pay to have your car parked (and brought to you) by a valet, are you paying for a parking space? Typically not. You're paying *them* to find the space and place your car there, and retrieve it so you don't have to wander around when you're done for the night. You're paying for a service (and I do not mean the tip.)

The INF is not the RMTers merchandise. The 50 (or whatever level you take them to) is not the merchandise. You're paying them for the service - for them spending THEIR time while you do something else.

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Show me which of your examples shows the customer getting something transferred to him as part of the service? The RMTers are transferring the inf or the character. Thus, it is being sold.

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The character is not being sold. The character remains under the person's account. The character does not get moved from account to account. There is no transfer of the character to the RMTer, nor do they ever leave NCSoft's overall control. You are paying for the time they spend leveling it, as opposed to you leveling it.

Same with INF.

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What part of this are you having trouble grasping? If a product is changing hands as part of the transaction, then that product is being sold.

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*The character does not get sold.* There is no product. You are paying them for the time taken for gaining X amount of INF.

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It doesn't matter if the service is -ALSO- part of the transaction. The kid that mows my lawn doesn't give me his lawnmower when he's done.

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The service is the entire transaction. YOU don't have to spend the time cutting the grass, but you end up with the lawn garbage (and a shorter lawn.) Instead of spending *your* time doing so, you pay someone else to spend *their* time doing so.

That is what they're selling.

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From the trademark aspect, they're even MORE explicitly in violation. They're using NC/PS's material for profit, and can -easily- be shown to be interfering with PS's legitimate customer base.

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This is the closest to a legitimate complaint I've seen that NC could take - but not because of trademark violations.

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But the trademark violations are -very- valid. Using someone else's trademarked material as part of your business without their authorization is flat-out illegal. And that's exactly what the RMTers are doing.

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If they were going under, say, www.COHInfluence.com (I don't know if that site exists or not, just made it up,) they could be seen as violating trademark. They're directly using COH's name.

By what you're saying, none of the people on DeviantArt who do character pieces should be there - since they say things like "I'll produce artwork of your character from games such as City of Heroes." They'd probably be even MORE in violation, as they're doing reproductions of items, characters, designs and such from within the game, which are *also* marked as "property of NCSoft" in the EULA. NCSoft gets nothing whatsoever from that - at least the RMTers have to have a live account!

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Sorry, the "selling my time spent getting it" is BS. Time is not a marketable commodity. It is a unit of measurement.

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I work. I don't do piecework, selling individual items. I get paid for being at work 40 or more hours a week. Nothing that I do produces a physical object I can point to and say "I made that." I can, however, show the time I've spent talking to people, helping them, fixing things or whatnot.

I am getting paid for my time.

Ever get a car repaired, something installed in the house, etc? You're paying, among other things, for "labor" - the time for someone else to be there to perform a service.

Ever rent a movie?

Selling time spent is not BS.

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Yes, it is. Neither you nor the mechanic are getting paid for your time. You're getting paid for [u]WHAT YOU DO[u] during that time. You can bet your sweet bum that you wouldn't be getting paid if all you did was sit around on it and ignore the job you were supposed to be doing during that time. That directly proves that it's not your time you're getting paid for.

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Really?

Last job I had (doing contract work,) I got paid for *exactly that* over the weekend. While there'd be the occasional call in, I could bring movies in with me and watch them *all the way through,* browse the 'net, etc.

I just had to be available.

They paid me for *being there.*

I didn't get paid per call, or per person talked to, or closed incident, or item fixed. I got paid *to be available.* I don't get paid more for doing more. I got paid for my time. And past a certain point, I get paid *more* for that time... even if I'm not doing anything.

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Also note when you go to a mechanic for repairs, you're also paying for the parts used in the repairs.

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... which you're charged separately for. You are still charged for labor.
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In this case, there isn't even any actual "merchandise". Anybody can farm a mission or use the market to earn money. Anybody can reach lvl 50. But buying money and/or powerleveling saves people TIME, which is what makes it a service. They spent time doing it for you.

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The money is the merchandise. Just because you can earn it yourself doesn't change that. I can go to the river and catch fish myself, but that doesn't mean when I buy fish at the store it's not "merchandise".

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If you pay the neighbor kid to mow your lawn, what are you paying them for? Sure, a tiny bit of it goes for gas and what not, but you're paying them so YOU don't have to mow the lawn yourself. You are not paying for merchandise, you're paying for a service.

When you see some high school kids offering to wash your car and you decide to let them, are you paying for soap, water, etc.? The majority of it is for their time, for time YOU don't have to spend washing it. You're not paying for merchandise, you're paying for a service.

There are... I forget the term, I want to say concierge services, people who will take care of your chores and, in some cases, go shopping and such for you while you're at work. If you have one go out and buy gifts and such - yes, you pay for the gifts, but you also pay them for the time they take to do so. Time you didn't have to spend doing it. You're paying for a service.

When you pay to have your car parked (and brought to you) by a valet, are you paying for a parking space? Typically not. You're paying *them* to find the space and place your car there, and retrieve it so you don't have to wander around when you're done for the night. You're paying for a service (and I do not mean the tip.)

The INF is not the RMTers merchandise. The 50 (or whatever level you take them to) is not the merchandise. You're paying them for the service - for them spending THEIR time while you do something else.

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From the trademark aspect, they're even MORE explicitly in violation. They're using NC/PS's material for profit, and can -easily- be shown to be interfering with PS's legitimate customer base.

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This is the closest to a legitimate complaint I've seen that NC could take - but not because of trademark violations. NCSoft runs a subscription based business. They can state that RMTers interfere with their business in two ways:

1. By "playing the game" for someone else, they reduce the amount of time that player would spend IN the game, potentially reducing the time they spend subscribed and lowering NCSoft's income. PNC could, potentially, go for monetary damages here, though the amount would be very hard to come up with and prove, and

2. Through their spamming, they reduce the enjoyability of the game environment, which could cause people to leave - not to mention the "halo" of having a CC # stolen by one of these sites providing the service. This would damage the reputation and marketability of the game, again potentially reducing PlayNC's income due to lost subscriptions. But again, hard to come up with and defend a number.

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Well, at the very least, the sites I've looked at (yes, I've looked at these sites, mainly to see who the enemy is) use City of Heroes logos, which is blatantly illegal.

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How many COH fansites use the logo? How many other places might, as well? How many of those went out and got NC's permission ahead of time?

They aren't marketing COH, or the logo, as *theirs.* Not in the least. Nor are they claiming to be in any way associated with COH, NCSoft, or Paragon Studios. They are saying, simply, "If you play this, we can provide you with INF for a price, saving you time and effort."

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- "Influence" is an in-game property, and as such, is wholly owned by NCsoft. (Check the EULA; you might think that your influence is "yours," but it's not. NCsoft lays claim to everything on the servers, including your character and all of their possessions.)

- By selling "influence," RMTers are essentially offering to sell something that someone else--NCsoft--is the rightful owner of.

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But they aren't selling influence. They're selling the time they spent (or that you don't have to spend) to *get* that amount of influence. They're not claiming the influence is "theirs" in any way shape or form.

Yes, it feels odd kinda-sorta defending the RMTers viewpoint in this - I don't agree with them at all, and want to see them out of the game - but they aren't doing anything illegal just by selling the INF.

Violating the EULA? Yes, absolutely. But EULAs aren't laws.

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It would be kind of like putting an ad in the paper for your buddy's car without his consent. At the very least, it's fraud, even if he gave you a spare key a while back and you had it within your means to actually deliver the goods.

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It would be theft. It's also representing that you own the physical object and have the right to sell it. It's not the same as what the RMTers are doing. What they're doing is - EULA, credit card fraud risk, etc. aside - charging you for their time to wash that car so you don't have to.

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Also, if I had an opportunity to go after them, I'd pile on the fact that in the EULA it states, "Members whose Accounts have been terminated by NC Interactive may not access the Service in any manner or for any reason, including through any other Account, without the express written permission of NC Interactive." [Section 4(i)] I would argue that once an RMTer has been banned, if they access the service again, they are guilty of violating the Federal Computer Fraud and Abuse Act. It might be a bit of a stretch, but if the lawyer is good enough, I think it's doable.

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Had to do a quick lookup. This is, of course, Wikipedia, and I'm not a lawyer, but:
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The Computer Fraud and Abuse Act is a law passed by the United States Congress in 1984 intended to reduce cracking of computer systems and to address federal computer-related offenses. The Computer Fraud and Abuse Act (codified as 18 U.S.C. § 1030 governs cases with a compelling federal interest, where computers of the federal government or certain financial institutions are involved, where the crime itself is interstate in nature, or computers used in interstate and foreign commerce. It was amended in 1986, 1994, 1996, in 2001 by the USA PATRIOT Act, and in 2008 by the Identity Theft Enforcement and Restitution Act. Section (b) of the act punishes anyone who not just commits or attempts to commit an offense under the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act but also those who conspire to do so.

The CFAA has specifically defined “protected computers” under 18 U.S.C. § 1030(e)(2) to mean a computer:

* exclusively for the use of a financial institution or the United States Government, or, in the case of a computer not exclusively for such use, used by or for a financial institution or the United States Government and the conduct constituting the offense affects that use by or for the financial institution or the Government; or
* which is used in or affecting interstate or foreign commerce or communication, including a computer located outside the United States that is used in a manner that affects interstate or foreign commerce or communication of the United States;


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1. No system is being cracked.
2. Doesn't involve the federal government or financial institutions
3. doesn't regulate interstate or federal commerce.

I think it'd be thrown out pretty quickly. And not just from the next point you bring up - trying to enforce US law elsewhere.

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Second, the authorized uses of NCsoft's IP is spelled out in the EULA, and one of those conditions is that you will not use it for any commercial purpose without their written consent. As soon as you do, you are violating copyright and/or trademark law, depending on what you're doing with NCsoft's IP.

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Again - there's nothing *legal* to do with the EULA. And I highly, HIGHLY doubt you could get them on copyright or trademark violations. They're not claiming the copyright or trademark, altering it, etc. If they made a game called "Township of Heroic People" that was more or less a COH ripoff, then you can go for the IP violations. But just saying "We offer this service to players of this game?" Nope.

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Sorry, the "selling my time spent getting it" is BS. Time is not a marketable commodity. It is a unit of measurement.

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I work. I don't do piecework, selling individual items. I get paid for being at work 40 or more hours a week. Nothing that I do produces a physical object I can point to and say "I made that." I can, however, show the time I've spent talking to people, helping them, fixing things or whatnot.

I am getting paid for my time.

Ever get a car repaired, something installed in the house, etc? You're paying, among other things, for "labor" - the time for someone else to be there to perform a service.

Ever rent a movie?

Selling time spent is not BS.

I love my Plant doms and controllers - except for one item. The "Target in air" issue when trying to use some powers.

I get, thematically, why. I don't *agree* with it, but I get that. If it can't be removed as a restriction (which I doubt,) then the height at which a target is considered "in the air" needs to be raised.

Why? Two days in a row, I've had targets that should, frankly, have been able to be controlled not be.

Situation 1: Group of Devouring Earth on a mildly sloping hillside. None of them fly (no swarms) - we're talking Sentries, Geodes and the like. But because they were ON that slope - "Target in air."

Situation 2: Confuse a group including an Agony Mage. AM casts their grav Immobilize on one of their compatriots... which lifts them ever so slightly off the ground, and makes them an invalid target.

Honestly, I'm making ten foot high vines sprout and knock things around, I should be able to grab something a few inches above the ground.

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Thing is, there's really nothing to prosecute. RMT doesn't break any laws

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Well, you know, except for all those pesky copyright and trademark laws...

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What trademark does selling in-game money for real world money violate? What copyright?

The RMTers are not selling "Cities of Heroes" using the COH engine, a pirate server, copyrighted characters, etc. They aren't actually *selling* anything but a "service." (You pay us for the time we spent getting these levels/this inf.)

Copyright, trademark, and other IP protection laws don't apply to RMT.

Two points -

1. As far as the levels, I don't know if you have been paying attention or not, but it will do some auto-SKing and such to at least the minimum level of the mission. Now, yeah, that spread... er... yeah... but it will do that.

2. You can solo, sure - but as you're doing so, and finding PUGs to play with, etc. start watching for other players who play like you do, don't want to deal with that much AE or whatever, and put them on your friends list. Get them together and form a SG, or join theirs. Go down to the server forums and say you're looking for a non-AE, mission group. Check the SG recruiting forum up above.

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What is so wrong with an AS IO?! Why must people look down on an idea!

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There's a difference between criticizing (which is what's being done here) and looking down on (which... well, look at City_Life's thread.)

There are flaws with the idea, things that could be fixed, things to debate over the necessity/possibility/desirability of, etc. That's what's being done here. The big problem, at least initially (and I mentioned this) is that you're taking a set that's served pretty well by melee sets as is, and making another "just plain" melee set usable only by one AT - read through everything, good and bad, that's been said.
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What if the AS IOs reduced the interupt part of an AS?

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... that's not alterable, the way the power is designed. *shrug*

...

Yeah, you're hopeless. Not even bothering.

Nine full ATs and multiple powersets "dont' appeal to gamers."
Upper level content and the zones to host them "don't appeal to gamers."
IOs "don't appeal to gamers."
Having missions actually be playable "doesn't appeal to gamers."

Right. As I said, you haven't thought this through at all.

You want a suggestion? Do some research on what would actually be affected before you make a suggestion. Like going to the wiki (link in my sig,) and typing in "Issues" to see what was added when and JUST how much you'd really lose.

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therefore, i envy the knew player that dont use MA, and i wish they where servers with different versions, as in FPS. So one can play their own style.

That would be more efficient than having many servers with the same game.

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You really haven't thought about this, have you.

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First off, this is probably impossible. Also, the level cap was 40 in Issue 1, there was no PvP, no villains, no Inventions, no badges, no Market, no AE, no Kheldians, several of the zones didn't exist...

Yeah, this is probably one of the worst "repeal ED" posts I've seen. ED isn't going away. A rollback to Issue 1 would probably break the game in a variety of intersting and catastrophic ways. This is not a good idea. Probably not even a possible idea.

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So, you think the game nowadays is in good shape?
Sorry, this aint my opinion, but, its just me.

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I think it's in far better shape, yes. And I'm going to assume by "Issue 1" you actually mean release, technically "Issue 0."

Let's see, going back to Issue 0 would, for me:
- Delete probably half my characters, between villains, Kheldians, and those on extra slots.
- Ruin multiple others whose powersets didn't exist. (Sonic, TA, Archery, Mental manipulation, Plant controllers, /thermal, Cold/Ice Defenders...)
- Ruin anything that has IOs in it. Not just sets.
- Remove 50s.
- Remove multiple zones. The Hollows, Eden, the Shadow Shard, Striga, Croatoa, the RWZ reverting to the RCS, and more.
- Remove any indication you're on a story arc.
- Force you to continually run around tram stations, as the trains would only go one zone to another - no menu to pick from.
- Remove my SG bases, and everything stored inside of them. (Bases did not exist until COV.)
- Remove my global friends list. (I3 or I4.)
- Gut probably 80% of the *remaining* characters costumes.
- Remove auto-exemplaring from task forces. Hope your exemplar doesn't drop, since you'll be auto-kicked!
- Break multiple story arcs, where you'd get an error instead of a waypoint.
- Remove the fifth costume slot. (Edit - going to issue "0" means removing all but one slot.)
- Remove capes and auras. (Issue 2)
- Remove the respec trial
- Only allow you to trade 9,999 inf (Issue 2 increased to 99,999.)
- No TP confirmation or rez confirmation.

And those are just for starters.

"No" doesn't begin to sum it up. "Bad idea" doesn't begin to describe it.

/hc now, not /h

Um... >.> I see at least one small problem - you didn't mention what side you were on. (I don't have one, just pointing it out.)

You may want to mention this either in the market and/or in your server's forums, as well.

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Bill Roper, co-founder and CEO of Flagship Studios, is currently working on Champions Online as a Cryptic employee.

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Did not know that!

Bwaaaah.

[/ QUOTE ]There was someone else that said that it was a trinity of developers that was keeping their interest in the game low. Unfortunately, the only two I can remember being mentioned are Emmert and Roper, though the third was supposedly in the same vein. (to the poster)

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I'm not sure it was a dev, but their PR guy, that Ivan somethingorother (Mr. "<censored> LAN!") who got that response. We found out about him when we started hearing about them coming onto here to solicit players, since he wrote the "apology."

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I
And yeah - the whole "I can't type because my fingers are fused from a fire" was ... so inconsistant and idiotic.

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Oh gawd... I'd forgotten all about that. *shakes head* Yeah. That does place it on "Most interesting excuses for bad spelling" though.

Why? Because... I don't know. It's an interesting idea.

Oh, I'm aware of that. I'm mostly pushing back to get thought into "What would actually be acceptable/work" (as far as what they'd do.)

And I'll repeat the objection about how they'd drop - especially if they can't filter them per side. (I know, going rogue may make this less of an issue - heh - but wouldn't eliminate it entirely.)

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Only one thing...

After Hellgate London fiasco... I will NEVER pay for a lifetime sub again...

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Okay, someone point me towards where I can find out about this place. I keep hearing about Hellgate, but I don't know the story. Enlighten me on this bit of MMO history.

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Initially set up with some of the refugees from Blizzard under the name Flagship Studios, the game was supposed to be set in a post-demonic-invasion London (with potentially other cities added on to other games.)

There were a lot of screenshots, and not a lot of info for a while.

Eventually, they became a single-player-sorta-MMO-kinda-subscription bas... er, conglomeration of a game. The game was horribly buggy at launch (and even through the first several patches,) and had serious performance issues. (I could, up to the time I uninstalled it... eh, maybe two months ago now, even fully patched, walk into a station and see NPC names with no NPCs models.)

You could play single player.
You could go multiplayer on their servers, but not get some of the content.
Or you could purchase a subscription, get extra storage, special goodies, access to new areas (I think all of one was ever released) and more, through monthly fees or a "Founders" lifetime subscription.

(Notice the missing multiplayer option - LAN - despite having single player playability. The main PR person, ivan somethingorother - also now working at Cryptic - said, flat out, "Who cares about LAN, F*** LAN" to the people asking about it. Wonderful attitude.)

Eventually, the game just crashed and burned. The founder members got bupkis for their "faithfulness" or whatever to the game, content was nonexistant, single player was always at least a patch behind (never got Stonehenge,) bugs didn't get fixed...

The game itself, actually, was taken by one of their creditors or partners or some such, and is apparently being re-developed or continued in Korea. Whether the US or EU will ever see it, or things like the founders offer will be honored still, nobody seems to know.

They do read them. They almost never reply, though we have, on occasion, seen a comment here or there.

And yes, some have indeed been implemented. Off the top of my head -

ED, in a way, was inspired by forum debates.

Dual builds.

Renaming builds

PVP-specific bonuses/IOs/rewards for PVPing

I want to say the "Accurate-X" IOs, since some of the debuffs and heals hurt for not having a spot for accuracy.

The change in the Sonic buff set's graphics (since the old ones were making people ill.)

I want to say some sets, actually.

I know others have actually set up lists, those are just off the top of my head.

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One IO set per AT that enhances there primary function or a subset of that function might be nice.

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I say the opposite.

You design the IOs to shore up the weaker areas of the AT and make them more rounded.

Defenders would likely appreciate something to make them sturdier and better soloing.

Tankers don't really need better aggro tools or more defenses. Damage and offensive minded bonuses and perks would go further.

Scrappers already have solid defenses and damage. They would likely enjoy more utility and team-usefulness. Chances for debuffs and the like could benefit them.

ETC.

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... which, again, are already handled through current IOs giving defense bonuses, damage bonuses, resists, faster recharge and the like. Not to mention choices in power pools... which themselves can open up more sets.

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I understand what you are saying, but there are MANY remedies to international offenses just like this. The entertainment industry faces this and more daily and has developed a fairly good system to deal with international violations like this.

I do understand what you are saying but there IS a remedy what is actually need more than moneyin this case is will. The lack of will is the issue that undercuts elmininating this kind of thing.

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Don't forget, however, the RIAA and such have actual *laws* behind what they're going after them for (the DMCA and such.) NCSoft would be trying to take RMTers to court for breaking an EULA.

How much do RMTers fear an EULA? While not trying to godwin the thread... Their reaction to an EULA reading would be similar to this.

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Who knows if they can or can not be restricted by AT. None of us are on the developing team and I don't know if they've told us.

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Thus my "Eh, we don't know" It may just be another database entry, or it may be a programming nightmare.
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Ok Stalkers eh....I say a set with bonuses for Stealth, DMG and ACC and maybe rech...

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Why the stealth bonus? For PVE - it's a pointless bonus, which could potentially backfire depending on how it's handled (hostage rescues.) The rest? It's already in melee sets, so why limit it to one AT?

Yeah, I know, I'm being a PITA. I'm just looking for a good, solid reason for sets like that to exist when, IMHO, any functions they could serve are already served by existing set types, and they'd have the drawback of not even being Consignment House fodder if they drop on the wrong side. (Something we *haven't* seen an ability, or perhaps desire, to limit.) At least if, say, a Tank gets a Pet (or Recharge Intensive Pet) set, they can put it on the market - while people may think of them as MM sets, Controllers, some Defenders, PBs and WS can use them. (I want to say Elec blasters can, too.) When they get a "Mastermind - Command Performance" set? It'd be an instant delete. (And may well be, depending on what happens with the set and bonuses, even for the AT on their own side.)

In that case -

You'll probably be looking at Win7 Ultimate for the multiprocessor support (which is, coincidentally, what the RC is.) And running it here (64 bit, dual boot,) it really is quite good. It takes a little adjustment for someone used to XP, but so would vista. I want to say Win7 Home would only support a single processor, just like XP home.

(That said, every version of Win7 is a superset of the version before it - so if you had, say, Win7 Home, you could buy an upgrade, plug in the key without having to reinstall, and unlock all the support Ultimate would have. At least that's the plan.)

I'm a little hazy on what's going to go on as far as upgrades with Win7. Vista will be able to be upgraded directly, XP I *believe* they're saying will need a reinstall. (That said... I'd do a clean install anyway.)

If you're planning on building it yourself, get the parts that won't be affected or likely drop (I tend to start with a case, since it just starts calling "Fill me up, build me!" better than anything else >.&gt and things like DVD drives, and hold off on things like mainboards. Video cards... eh, I'd buy about halfway, keeping an eye on what's coming. Processors, I'd watch for sales.

You mention looking for solid state drives - the ones that will give you decent performance (SLC in most instances, as opposed to MLC, except for one from IBM... think I remembered the acronym correctly) are going to be pricy, and I don't *believe* I've seen one over 160 Gb. I'm looking, for the suggested system, at an IBM 80Gb boot drive, at around $300-$350 right now. So it should be cheaper when I actually *buy* it. Most storage is going on regular hard drives.

My main thing with mainboards right now is apparent problems with booting on 12 Gb RAM. (Yes, I run enough stuff *now* to see this as an upcoming issue for me.) These seem to get fixed with BIOS updates, but it's something I'm watching.

I'd hold off on buying whole systems right now, save money, and watch what comes out, planning on a Win7 "from the start" system.

And, of course, there's the chance they'll just take your credit card number and abuse it (the RMTers, not NCSoft/PS,) use your account to spam (another reason to get banned, not to mention getting on ignore lists across the game) and more.

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Yep. They'll wail on you with the Ban Hammah.


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... and as true as this is, I can't help but chuckle at the image of someone being beat up with a rabbi.