Melancton

Servant as in "Slave."

The Devs were very thorough, too. I read in a Wiki commentary that Hero 1 had gotten his Incarnate abilities via the Lady of the Lake and the article concluded that the Well was "a" way to Incarnate abilities, not "the" way. The Devs then carefully made sure that the Lore was that ALL superpowers, not just all Incarnate abilities, were actually given by the Well, no exceptions. As that Noted Philosopher, Sigourney Weaver, opined in "Galaxy Quest": "Well, screw THAT!"

/Devs

What??

/Devs

What is worrisome is that the Devs do not seem to understand that the appeal of CoH is in playing beings with free moral choice who have superpowers they use to defeat the opposition. The Well as it is being presented effectively removes the free moral choice aspect RETROACTIVELY. They appear to think that if you get to beat up guys in a cool way, that fixes all problems with the Lore. They are greatly mistaken.

/foghorn leghorn

It's a joke, Son, Ah say, Ah say, it's a JOKE!

/foghorn leghorn

Like Saul is Ascendant's agent?

It did not have to be that way. "Retconned and tap danced on everything" about sums it up. It is really sad.

The Well is "directed" ?

Good Grief, Charlie Brown. I hope they do not make the problem worse.

The Well is problematic on two main levels.

1) It retcons everyone's heroes and cosmology: simply stated, your origin story is wrong, it was the Well of Furies that gave you your powers.

2) It gets into areas really not required. The Well takes on the trappings of real-life Diety in many aspects, and that is not necessary. Like it or not, however, here it comes. "Incarnation" has specific definitions in many religions, and as long as we are not getting any more serious than Greek mythology style "incarnation" giving us Heracles, then we are still in Wibbly Wobbly Superhero Stuff and you can sort of hand-wave it all away. When I was reading the comics, Odin and Zeus happily co-existed without any thought as to who was Top Dog. The Well, as it is being presented, goes above and beyond the call of duty, and when it is presented as being the source of all power for everyone and everything everywhere and able to possess Statesman, against his will, and make him chatter like a sock puppet... that puts a whole new look and meaning on being an "incarnate" of the Well. They did not need to go there. They did anyway.

Technically there is a third level, in that the actual scripting of all of the above is very problematic also, but that is execution and not concept.

The overall concept, as presented, is, for me, extremely flawed. Once the Well became sentient and insane, in addition to all-powerful, we had a problem, Houston. It won't be cured by saying, "Actually it was (Doctor Doom/Red Skull/Nemesis/Homer Simpson/White Lab Mice) actually making the all-powerful Well their puppet to make puppets of everybody."

Well, actually, maybe the White Lab Mice WOULD work...

Also very well played, good sir.

This is a hate-filled remark, you hater, and my having LOL'ed at it has, alas, made me a hater, too. I hate that.

Very well played, good sir.

I have fought every last one of them. And each of them carries 300 pounds of caltrops, all of which they dropped at my feet within 5 seconds.

I once lost a teammate to being Caltropped to death. It was sad.

You are, of course, quite correct in this, but especially so that it must be done carefully and skillfully. In theory, I know how to pull a fastball to right field, too, but don't expect to see me in the majors. Likewise, I get the feeling that some of the writing in CoH is being done by someone who thinks they are Christopher Nolan producing "Memento." I don't think so, Tim.

In this instance, you cannot care about the characters if you don't know them. One of the reasons "The Empire Strikes Back" is so lauded is because the huge plot reveal happens after we have had about four hours worth of background on the characters involved. If it had occurred in the first half-hour of the first movie, it would not have had anywhere close to the thunderclap impact it had back in 1980.

I am sure that there is an official name for the sorts of mistakes they are making, but I think the biggest irritant is that the bad writing in CoH suffers in comparison to the rest of the game. I love CoH. There is so much that is GREAT about it. And then we get awful lore tossed onto all of the game and it really honks me off.

When the plot gets shoehorned, and shoehorned retroactively, I might add, so that the sentient, insane, possessing Well of Furies is the shaker and mover for every hero in the game, that is failing-grade story construction. Reed Richards only THOUGHT it was Gamma Rays... it was actually the Hoary Hosts of Hogath all along that gave him his powers! And now, they have possessed him like an Elmo muppet! Blecch.

And to your point, Sam, there might be a way that an engrossing, enthralling story could be constructed so that getting defeated by a rock is an appealing challenge to be overcome and not an appallingly infuriating turn of events... the Devs did not pull that off. Not even close.

There might have been a story between Statesman and the Dark Watcher, but all I know is that this DW character appeared and started bellowing things that did not make much sense. As such, it is lousy writing, and it suffers enormously more when compared to the way "Smoke and Mirrors" was scripted and plotted.

Paging Dr. Hickman, paging Dr. Hickman...

These examples abound in the comic, and alas, they have made their way into the game.

As Samuel Tow summarized, you cannot just skip Act One. The reason that "Hamlet" is a classic is because of the examination of the characters, not because there are more folks dead on the ground at the end than at Gettysburg. When you skip the exposition and development, you have a bad Season Three Star Trek episode where a red shirt nobody cares about gets offed. Right now, the Incarnate Lore is playing about as well as "Journey to Eden" or "Spock's Brain."

I read that history at the same time I began playing. I never understood why the Statesman in the City of Heroes comics, with the exception of Troy Hickman's arc, was such a stone-cold jerk with zero people skills, while in that history, he is a noble, inspirational and beloved hero. A thousand heroes follow him in the Alpha Gambit, knowing that it is likely certain death, and around 800 of them perish. The non-Hickman Statesman could never lead that.

The writing in the game is currently feast or famine, it seems. There has to be exposition and set-up. You can't just open up with the verbal equivalent of haymakers; there have to be some jabs thrown to set things up.

Take the "sudden and unexpected" return of the Dark Watcher in the comics. He resurrects some of the Freedom Phalanx, and when Statesman says the FP needs to "plot our next move," out of FREAKING NOWHERE, the Dark Watcher explodes with this nuclear payload: "Ill tell you what your next move is, MARCUS. It's the same as it was when YOU LEFT ME WANDERING THE OUTER DIMENSIONS AND SACRIFICED HERO 1 to the Rikti. You... do... nothing!" (emphasis mine)

(ftp://ftp.cityofheroes.com/comics/topcow/comic_20.pdf p.17)

As I recall from the history of Paragon City cited by Samuel Tow, Hero 1 volunteered for the Omega Gambit and felt he was better suited as a magical hero than Statesman, and that Statesman was better suited to lead the Alpha Gambit. Further, Hero 1 knew he would not return and gave Excalibur to Ms. Liberty for safekeeping. This riff by the Dark Watcher accuses Statesman of pretty much sending Hero 1 to certain death without Hero 1 being aware of it. He also blames Statesman for... what? Not coming to find him when he was wandering the outer dimensions? I thought DW went on his own accord, and until very recently, he was the only one that could do it. Was Statesman some interdimensional AAA towing and rescue service? How could he find him? I don't understand where all the PENT UP RAGE!!!!111!!!! from the Dark Watcher comes from. Frankly, this is poor writing without the proper exposition and setup. And it sounds like DW is channeling... William... Shatner... at... the... end.

Blecch.

There may have been a legitimate reason for the Dark Watcher to be such a prong right out of the box, but the writing does not clue us in. We just get an industrial-sized can of RAAAAAAGE!!!!111!!!! poured on us.

At the risk of beating a dead horse (or at least hitting it with a rock), the exposition, set-up and presentation are vital.The Incarnate lore continues to lack it. If you get killed by a rock while purportedly Incarnate, that really ruins the proverbial mood, doesn't it?? What is next? Papa Smurf and Smurfette off you with Incarnate level "LA-LA" Singing?? It may be technically "challenging" but it also makes you feel like a total Incarnate chump.

I and many others have been on this bandwagon for a while... and it would not necessarily have to be a FREE comic. I think a LOT of folks would pony up for such a comic.

And it would make Troy's probation officer so happy that he had ongoing employment! Talk about a Win-Win!

Troy Hickman did a wonderful job with Statesman in the CoH comic arc he wrote. Had he been given a long run, I am certain you would have seen a magnificent, nuanced Statesman whose dialogue was well-scripted, in charge of a supergroup that fought evil together as a team. Instead... well, you pretty much nailed what happened.

WotF: /JessicaRabbit

I'm not insane, sentient, controlling and bad... I'm just written that way.

/JessicaRabbit

************************

Incarnate Spiderman getting defeated by lunchladies with rolls, indeed.

The Incarnate lore was already wretched in its premise, and now it appears to have taken a huge turn to the utterly laughably silly in its execution.

Messing with the Fourth Wall is a very tricky proposition.

It is one thing to wink at the audience by say, having the author(s) make a cameo. As long as the major players are not breaking the wall, it is still possible to carry forward with the integrity of the narrative intact. For example, I thought it was GREAT to see Ascendant in the comics. (If you are not familiar with this hero, take a look at his phone call transcripts in the CoH Wiki.) Ascendant's presence was a wink at the audience that still left the wall intact.

It is another thing altogether once a major player breaks the Fourth Wall because once it is done, you cannot take it back. If Hamlet steps to the edge of the stage and says, "Geez, I wish Shakespeare would make up my mind for me!" then the tragedy has turned into a farce. It is not possible to have a straight narrative drama any longer, since the audience has been informed that at least one (or more) of the players is aware that they are in Strawberry Fields, where "nothing is real." If the characters have, as it were, suspended the suspension of disbelief, then it is all over unless the story is a farce.

Ms. Liberty resuming her station as a trainer does not strike me as all that problematic; new heroes need training, and that does not necessarily scream "MMORPG!" Getting awarded an Exploration Badge, however, does. It is a cheap laugh like Hamlet's quip that cannot be undone.

If writing superhero comics were easy, we would all be Troy Hickman.

Devs am hating Trolls.

It is noteworthy that the mechanics are not the problem, ie, folks are not trying to avoid a difficult challenge from powerful mobs.

It is the story, the presentation... the Lore, if you will.

If it were a horde of purple reptiles with zapper guns taking these Incarnate heroes down, much of the outcry would not be occurring. But it is citizens chunking rocks that are doing it, and that strikes a lot of people as Just Wrong.

Good, compelling story-telling is vital to the process. The accolades for Troy Hickman and the "Smoke and Mirrors" arc do not come just because somebody died. There are plenty of stories in which people die, and many of them are terrible. Troy made us care what happened.

The wires upon which good writing hang are rather frail, and it takes someone skilled to string them. I keep clamoring for Troy to be brought back into the process because of his established bona fides, not only in general, but with the CoH characters SPECIFICALLY.

The Incarnate Lore is problematic in a myriad of ways. And as you have indicated, Dante, bad writing can suck the fun right out of what might be an enjoyable challenge under a different presentation.

Ah, but folks come and go on the team, so what is passe today might be retro chic tomorrow.

While it was extremely rare, there WERE people that got killed and stayed dead in the comics. Bucky and Uncle Ben.

And now... Bucky apparently "got better" like John Cleese. He stayed dead for a long, long, long time, though.

And for all I know, Uncle Ben will be returning on a retconned cloud of Converted Rice in a moment or two.

But I think States will show back up again... and we will be shocked, shocked that there is gambling going on in this place.

Issue 23: The Coming Storm Arrives!

First Hero: Stop or I shall unleash my Nova upon you!

Battalion: *sneers*

Second Hero: Stop or I shall devastate you with my Inferno!

Battalion: *laughs*

Charlie Brown: I got a rock.

Battalion: *flees*




Well, THAT sure was a fast arc!

/Dylan

"Everybody must get stoned!"

/Dylan

Troy Hickman has talked about that in the past. He was taking a handoff of a Statesman character that, shall we charitably say, had been depicted as having issues "working well with others." He thought he could fulcrum off of that to take States in a different direction.

There are two standout points in Hickman's depiction of Statesman:

First, the way Statesman relates to the others in the midst of their worst nightmares, and the telling content of his own. Not only was that very moving, it set the stage for a major shift in the presentation of Statesman. It was pretty much discarded by subsequent writers.

Second is a SPOILER. Stop here, as I shall discuss the very end of the arc.












Cyrus realizes he is moments from death. Statesman cradles Cyrus's head and shoulders up from the ground.

Cyrus: Is it okay? Did you manage to stop them?

Statesman: No sir, we didn't. But you DID.

I have lauded Hickman's skill with dialogue a number of times, but that right there is the crown jewel.

The subsequent dedication of the Cyrus Thompson statue, with further rehabilitation of Statesman, a great speech by Manticore and a wonderful inscription on the statue, is a brilliant finale.

There is no way to translate that to the CoH game. The Ouroboros arc comes as close as can be done, but it can never capture what Hickman does there, especially with Statesman.

And yes, his interpretation of Citadel was also wonderful.

And also chucked out the window summarily.

McNum, your post was very thoughtful. I hope to respond to the points you and a couple of others have raised when I have a bit more time this evening.

However, the Wag in me requires that I briefly posit that if it actually WERE Doctor Doom carrying on after the death of Reed Richards, he would obviously devote his entire existence to tracking down his OTHER nemesis, the bane of his existence... that #$#%^&# Squirrel Girl.