Maelwys

I agree!

If it were entirely up to me I'd put most of the emphasis on the survivability benefits though, because being repeatedly ganked over and over again doesn't let you get to grips with your abilities and part of the idea would be getting people to learn how to PvP more effectively.

Too much +damage could easily skew things because "newbie" or "casual" PvPers would start relying on the buffs to score kills... but preventing them from being killed too often would better emulate "PvP experience". Veteran PvPers can typically survive for longer than newbies through experience, pure skill, increased movement ability, Aid Self, etc. but outside of the leadership pool and allied buffs, +damage is harder to come by.

[ QUOTE ]
Buffing someone might make more sense in metagame point of view, because the winner could reset the debuffs by exiting the zone and coming back propably.. The loser on the other hand would have an option to stay in zone and receive the buffs. Otherwise Id agree with Mesmer.

[/ QUOTE ]

The basic idea is to balance things out dynamically based on toon performance. How that's accomplished is entirely up for debate

Buffing losers and/or debuffing winners would in essence have the same effect (better performing toons get dynamically balanced against poorer performing toons) but actively penalising someone will likely "feel" far worse ("I got NERFED!") than having the player they just killed be slightly more powerful next time. Buffing the underdog rather than actively penalising good players just seems like more people would accept it.

I'll try to sum up my personal feelings on this:
To me as a longtime PvE'er and casual PvP'er, It'd be attractive to know that if my PvE-built toons entered a PvP zone and get repeatedly ganked, they'd gradually become harder and harder to defeat. But I wouldn't really want my PvP-built toons to actively suffer simply for staying in Sirens for a few hours.

For this reason, I think the focus of the whole idea would have to be around the bonus buff/debuff "baseline". Ideally I'd see this set as current toon performance, so winners would never get penalised below where they are currently... if a toon enters a PvP zone, they would start at this baseline. If they get killed, they gain bonuses, as they kill others they lose those accumulated bonuses until they're at the baseline again. What the bonus is exactly could be determined by just how many times they've been defeated, but the idea would be to increase their survivability in combat so they can become more of a challenge to other toons.

In practice this could mean that if Stalker A kept ganking Defender B, Defender B would eventually become able to take, say, 2-3 times as much punishment before they were defeated. This wouldn't effect Stalker A's ability to kill Blaster C, but it would discourage them from repeatedly ganking Defender A, and thus potentially prevent Defender A from getting completely disillusioned with PvP.

Conversely as Defender B then learns how to use their build effectively in PvP, and starts getting kills (either on their own or in a team) their accumulated bonus would decrease... so as they learn how to PvP more effectively they become less difficult to kill until they're on the same level (zero bonuses) as the hardcore PvPers.

You could look on it as 'softening the learning curve' in PvP, as well as a way to balance uneven teams out.

[ QUOTE ]

I like the basic concept of this, but I would like to reverse it. Instead of buffing the person that's dying, you could weaken the person that's doing all the winning. You could explain it in a way that the person winning all the time, is getting some fatigue and his powers are decreasing in effectiveness. This is probably already programmable seeing as it's possible to track kills through the bounty system in Siren's for example. They could tie that into a global debuff, the same way they already do in the zones.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually when I first posted the idea I'd specified both (A boost for the loser and debuff for the winner) but I had assumed that the latter would be too open to exploitation by relogging or switching characters etc.

A "debuff" would also serve to actually discourage rather than encourage people to do long term pvp, since staying in the PvP zone and scoring kills would be detrimental ("If I do well I'm going to get nerfed, so why bother?", "I've scored too many kills today, I'm getting too weak here. Later Sirens!") rather than compensate the "casual PvPers" for lack of ability ("Dammit they killed me again... maybe THIS time I'll be strong enough to survive/get my own back?", "I might be [censored] at PvP, but I can try it for a laugh and if I get beaten up on enough I could kill that smug FOTM ice tanker...")

Get the idea? As Cogs says, it's the bad, casual PvPers that need a boosts, the regulars are normally good enough already and fairly happy with their performance otherwise they wouldn't be there... but penalising (regulars) for doing well is probably going to go down a lot worse than buffing (casual PvPers) for doing badly.

If there's another way to boost the loser's performance without damage/resistance buffs, I'd be for it.

"GV": Assume that's the last mission?
"G mode": not sure what that is.

Scirocco's End Drain shouldn't be a problem if I'm just taunting and running my armors, though his energy attacks could well be since Dark has no Dull Pain, a somewhat unreliable heal (unless you let me keep a few minions nearby) and only 20-25% Energy Resists (well, mine has 27.3%, but you get the idea... ).

Nightdagger's current build is here, hasn't changed in over 3 months.

[ QUOTE ]
Now that Sir, is a sterling Idea.

[/ QUOTE ]



How to get the Devs sic'ed onto it though, and not overly upset PvP'ers in the process?

Whilst dual PVE/PVP builds might help with some of the disparity, I think the only way to have a TRULY level playing field in PvP zones is to dynamically adjust toon effectiveness based on player performance.

Sort of like a reverse handicap rating: There's a baseline (where we are now) that noone can go under, but you can get buffed above that baseline when you perform poorly in the zone. So say Toon A gets a kill on Toon B. Toon A's bonus would decrease slightly (though not below zero) and Toon B's bonus would increase slightly (up to a predetermined 'cap').

This rating then manifests itself as a buff to damage output, mez resistance and/or damage resistance etc. to those who get killed more often. The handicap could be toggleable in the arena, and mandatory in Zones.

What this would mean in practice is if PvE'er Joe came into Sirens, after getting his rear handed to him several times he would have a much greater chance of surviving attacks and/or killing other players. Essentially you wouldn't be able to gank the same person over and over without them getting stronger and more resistant to the ganking... and it would work in a similar fashion to offset "Greater Numbers versus Smaller Numbers". Eventually the bonus the weaker player/team gets would compensate them for the stronger player/team's ability (whether that ability is due to player skill, build, or team organisation).

Yes, it'd probably be extremely difficult to code. There already exists a set of global zone buffs/debuffs for each faction in Warburg though... so in theory it could be possible.

Replying here because If I tweak the above post it'll break the stupid Google Cache links again.

[ QUOTE ]
Those 54s AVs in RV have GM modifiers.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ah, I see.

I've never really counted them as being GMs because they typically only need a few people to beat. When someone says "GM" I think of something that's actually a Giant Monster, like Kraken/Babbage/Adamastor/etc.

The only GM that I've heard of spawning in a PvP zone is the Kronos Titan (an end-of-mission "ambush" that goes after the mission arc owner regardless of what zone they're in- even at a Hamidon Raid at one point).

[ QUOTE ]
My train of thought is always all over the place

[/ QUOTE ]

Links to Google Cache don't appear to work quite right here, so apologies in advance for the below format.

All-Blaster STF -
http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:wHMqL...;cd=1&gl=uk
(Although the discussed attempt failed apparently it's been successful several times)

All-Tanker STF -
http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cachePAdA...&lr=lang_en
(There are a few other threads about it that I can't get into due to forum pruning - outcome unknown)

All-Scrapper STF -
http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:qR7Od...&lr=lang_en
(Can't find several other threads pertaining to this- darn pruning again. Am assuming from the tone of this thread that they haven't been successful yet though)

And yes, there's Controller and Defender STFs all over the place...

The Tanker STF attempt in particular that I was thinking of was from a discussion on a SG website... which I can't remember the URL of for the life of me. Will see if it's still in my Home PC's history after work. The general idea was "Granite > anything but Ghost Widow" though, IIRC Vengence and Shivans were used for GW and the rest was pretty much cake. Ice Patch + Burn on the repairmen seemed to be pretty much the clincher.

[ QUOTE ]
I would do an all Scrapper take down of the GMs on Defiant if it were possible but I know what "some" PVPers are like. I like to see a multitude of people succeed at something and they like to see themselves succeed at something while a multitude fail but still, it is a PVP zone for PVP. My manners aren't good for PVP, my stalker asks people for a fight.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry Shannon, I struggle sometimes to follow your train of thought and this paragraph in particular has me confused. What has PvP got to do with fighting GMs? There are no GMs in the PvP zones.

If you're referring to Shivans and Warburg Nukes, Nukes are far easier to get ahead of time, and it's virtually impossible to prevent an 8-man team from taking out a firebase in Bloody Bay... but they're not needed. Back in i6 my Regen could solo most GMs, and last issue he was comfortably duoing them with my Sonic Defender. Eight scrappers will have no trouble with anything short of Lusca, YuKon'Grai or Hamidon. Without Shivans/Nukes.

[ QUOTE ]
An all Tanker STF in one aspect is slightly more complicated and in another less complicated. If we get this done this counts as both as far as I am concerned.

[/ QUOTE ]
For my money, I'd say an all Tanker STF is not on anywhere near the same level of difficulty as an all-Scrapper or all Blaster STF. All are doable and have been done on the US boards before... by all reports the All-Tanker STF is by far the easiest of the three because all you need is one solid Granite Tanker with taunt and someone else to kite Ghost Widow - the rest can all be standard Scranker builds- eg. Fire/EM with FA.

[ QUOTE ]
Just cant taunt control 3.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pah, Lightweight!

I might be able to come, depends what day + time you're doing it. I'll likely need a bit of notice beforehand so I can get that morning freed up so it'd help immensely if you could decide on a time + date.

Be warned: there's no way am I burning my Spines/DA's last remaining respec on Live. I've far too much time + effort invested into that build to mess it up and lose all the IOs! If you actually require a different non-kheldian melee toon then I can bring a Kat/Regen Scrapper (respeccable) or INV/SS Tanker (not respeccable).

The Tanker can easily handle LR or a few of the Patron AVs solo the old fashioned way while Unstoppable is running (Unstoppable downtime is slightly over 3 minutes on the current build). Haven't tried the Scrapper lately (soloed GMs back in i6) but it traditionally faceplants a fair bit due to AV PBAoE splash damage.

I don't really see how much of a problem it is anyway- even if it had sufficent duration, by the time you'd stacked enough holds you could have simply spike-damaged the regen to death several times over. My EM Stalker could reliably stack stuns through Integration back when he had Stun in his build. These days he just two-shots the silly Regen. Bonus points if you toggle drop Integration with AS though...

I've not been stunned in PvE on my Regen Scrapper except by the Tsoo Ink Men (level 20-25ish). I've been held by Carnie Bosses countless times though, it's the only reason that character still carries breakfrees.

I can confirm that slotting the Little twits of DOOM (tm) for damage works.

And as Praf says, they're completely unaffected by external damage buffs such as Build Up and Set Bonuses.

....you can jump into the middle of a HUGEass mob, survive the Alpha thanks to Oppressive Gloom and your shields, pop off your heal for nearly FIVE DIGITS worth of Green Numbers (giving the Empath a heart attack in the process), "arrest" the entire spawn 3-4 attacks later, then move on to the next HUGEass mob...

...taking the combined alpha from a +4 Psi CW King plus all his buddies, healing yourself back to full, then dying on their second wave of attacks because your teammates have all fallen over backwards in disbelief. (Bah, even then I would have been fine if I had remembered to bring purples or use the Wedding Band temp!! )

...after dying in above manner you self-rez, stunning the AV and his buddies and healing yourself to full HP/Endurance... and then use Scrapper Taunt to lock aggro down so hard that the Taunting Stone Tanker doesn't even get so much as a dirty look from the AV until after it's completely dea^H^H^Harrested...

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If Scrappers had access to Fire or Energy Melee, they might just be able to reliably kill an INV tanker one-on-one... without it, their damage type is just far too much resisted. I know from past experience that my Kat/Regen can unload attack chain after attack chain onto a Dull Pained, 90% S/L resist INV tanker without eating noticably into their green bar.

[/ QUOTE ]

-Rechg of spines gradually takes its toll on dull pain as well as Unstoppable.

[/ QUOTE ]

It won't make a discernable difference in a RL situation. The -Rchg on each attack except "Throw Spines" is 8%, and on "Throw Spines" it's 16%. Since a decent INV tanker is going to be packing either +Recharge set bonuses, Hasten, or both... even stacked spines attacks are not going to phase them in the slightest.

As an example, my Perma Dull Pain Inv Tanker build has Hasten plus a passive 55% +Recharge. The combined, stacked Recharge from spines attacks will not come close to breaking through his passive recharge buff let alone Hasten. I have a 50 Spines/DA which has fought with my 50 INV/SS (I wanted some testing of my tank's IO build and they're on different accounts) - the INV tanker can practically stand there and let his 267% passive regeneration rate OUT OF DULL PAIN cover all of the incoming damage from the spines attacks, due to the S/L resistances Energy Torrent and Death Shroud actually ended up doing more damage over time than Ripper.

In my testing, any time the INV could concievably need a major amount of healing, Dull Pain was available. He doesn't even need to kite, and that's assuming that the Scrapper is attacking constantly and is going to hit him all the time (My Spines/DA was running Focussed Accuracy, without it he started whiffing like crazy due to my Tank's S/L Defence - +30% ish with one person in melee range plus the "25% PvP bonus").

Bear in mind that my Tanker doesn't have Aid Self, nor is he particularly specced for PvP. He's a PvE team meatshield, and he can easily get beaten on all day by a Spines/ Scrapper without batting an eyelid.
Unstoppable is NOT needed fighting a Spines/ when you already have capped S/L resists from other powers.

Note that this is *Purely* down to Smashing/Lethal resistance being so widespread as to make sets which rely on it borked in PvP. My EM Stalker can easily beat the same, non-retaliating INV/SS Tanker in only 3-4 hits.

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.21
http://www.honourableunited.org.uk/mhd.php

Level 50 Mutation Defender
Primary Power Set: Sonic Resonance
Secondary Power Set: Sonic Attack
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Medicine
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Electricity Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Sonic Siphon -- Acc-I:50(A), Acc-I:50(23)
Level 1: Shriek -- Decim-Acc/Dmg:40(A), Decim-Dmg/EndRdx:40(7), Decim-Dmg/Rchg:40(9), Decim-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg:40(9), Decim-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:40(27), Dev'n-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(27)
Level 2: Scream -- Decim-Acc/Dmg:40(A), Decim-Dmg/EndRdx:40(3), Decim-Dmg/Rchg:40(3), Decim-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg:40(5), Decim-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:40(5), Dev'n-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(7)
Level 4: Sonic Barrier -- TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx:50(A), ResDam-I:50(11), ResDam-I:50(34)
Level 6: Hurdle -- Jump-I:50(A), Jump-I:50(46)
Level 8: Sonic Haven -- TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx:50(A), ResDam-I:50(11), ResDam-I:50(34)
Level 10: Combat Jumping -- Ksmt-ToHit+:30(A), LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(46)
Level 12: Sonic Dispersion -- TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx:50(A), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx:50(13), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx:40(13), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx:40(15), S'fstPrt-ResKB:20(15), Aegis-Psi/Status:50(46)
Level 14: Super Jump -- HO:Ribo(A)
Level 16: Shout -- Decim-Acc/Dmg:40(A), Decim-Dmg/EndRdx:40(17), Decim-Dmg/Rchg:40(17), Decim-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg:40(19), Decim-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:40(19), Dev'n-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(23)
Level 18: Health -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+:50(A), Mrcl-Rcvry+:40(50)
Level 20: Stamina -- EndMod-I:50(A), EndMod-I:50(21), EndMod-I:50(21)
Level 22: Aid Other -- Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx:50(A), Dct'dW-Rchg:50(39), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg:50(40), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg:50(40), Dct'dW-Heal:50(40)
Level 24: Aid Self -- HO:Golgi(A), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg:50(25), Dct'dW-Heal:50(25), IntRdx-I:50(34), IntRdx-I:50(37), IntRdx-I:50(43)
Level 26: Clarity -- Range-I:50(A)
Level 28: Sirens Song -- CSndmn-Acc/Rchg:50(A), CSndmn-EndRdx/Sleep:50(29), CSndmn-Acc/EndRdx:50(29), CSndmn-Sleep/Rng:50(31), CSndmn-Acc/Sleep/Rchg:50(33)
Level 30: Amplify -- HO:Membr(A), HO:Membr(31), HO:Membr(31)
Level 32: Disruption Field -- EndRdx-I:50(A), EndRdx-I:50(33), EndRdx-I:50(33)
Level 35: Screech -- Stpfy-Acc/Rchg:50(A), Stpfy-EndRdx/Stun:50(36), Stpfy-Acc/EndRdx:50(36), Stpfy-Stun/Rng:50(36), Stpfy-Acc/Stun/Rchg:50(37), RechRdx-I:50(37)
Level 38: Hasten -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(39), RechRdx-I:50(39)
Level 41: Thunder Strike -- Sciroc-Acc/Dmg:50(A), Sciroc-Dmg/Rchg:50(42), Sciroc-Acc/Rchg:50(42), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(42), M'Strk-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(43), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(43)
Level 44: Charged Armor -- ImpArm-ResDam:40(A), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx:40(45), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx:50(45), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:50(45)
Level 47: Power Sink -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(48), RechRdx-I:50(48), EndMod-I:50(48), EndMod-I:50(50), EndMod-I:50(50)
Level 49: Resuscitate -- EndRdx-I:50(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Acc-I:50(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Run-I:50(A)
Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx-I:50(A)
Level 1: Vigilance
------------
[u]Set Bonus Totals:[u]<ul type="square">[*]+9% Max Endurance[*]+9% Enhancement(Accuracy)[*]+4% Enhancement(Heal)[*]+43.8% Enhancement(RechargeTime)[*]+5% Enhancement(Sleep)[*]+3% Enhancement(Stun)[*]+72.5 (7.13%) HitPoints[*]+Knockback (Mag -4)[*]+MezResist(Confused) (Mag 20%)[*]+MezResist(Held) (Mag 20%)[*]+MezResist(Immobilize) (Mag 28.3%)[*]+MezResist(Sleep) (Mag 21.7%)[*]+MezResist(Stun) (Mag 20%)[*]+MezResist(Terrorized) (Mag 24.4%)[*]+5% Recovery[*]+10% Regeneration[*]+1.26% Resistance(Fire)[*]+1.26% Resistance(Cold)[*]+3.13% Resistance(Negative)[*]+3% Resistance(Psionic)[*]+10% RunSpeed[/list]<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>| Copy &amp; Paste this data chunk into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build |
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I'd probably go for something like that for general PvE solo play plus occasional teaming, trading out Screech for the Nuke if it's more your cup of tea. You have an impressive range of abilities: 67% S/L Resist, 55% Energy Resist, full ranged attack chain, stackable sleep, a big melee "blapp" and a self-endurance-recovery power... all you'll really have to worry about in PvE is Rikti Bosses and Carnie Illusionists (ranged sleeps).

There's no real reason to gimp yourself for the rare occasions that you'll be teaming. Sonic is one of the best buff sets out there and it can make one heck of a difference to a bad AV-fighting PUG. Although with all that Resistance and -Resistance, I'd be surprised if you couldn't solo most of your own EBs... either through stacked sleeps, endurance drain or just good old "brute force" attacking...

For PvP it'll be a different story... Sonics are usually seen more as Team Buff Bots than solo PvPers (rooting animations, Aim + Sonic Cage, allied resistance and mez protection/perception buffs) but there's no real reson why a Sonic couldn't at least hold their own in the arena. I've used my Sonic/Elec in PvP the odd time with some success (virtually always as a buff bot), but I know Xanthus and a few others have a PvP-built Sonic/Sonic.

Yes, it's one of the easiest combos to solo with actually. The "Sonic Blast" powerset has one of the best if not THE best damage-output-over-time of all the Defender secondaries due to all the stacking -resistance.

The Primary will work *best* in a team, but you do get self mez protection to Stun/Disorient, one other -resist power (Sonic Siphon) and considerable +Resistance buffs. Take Fitness and the Medicine pool (Aid Self), plus a Knockback protection IO or Acrobatics and you'll solo fine. You can cap your resistance to Smashing/Lethal if you take Sonic Dispersion and the Temp Invun. Epic Shield (and get darn close with the other shields!).

One other good thing about the Sonic Secondary for soloing is Siren's Song. It can totally negate the rest of a big enemy spawn while you "arrest" them one by one.

But that wouldn't have been NEARLY as fun...

The third AS actually connected- I saw three "red numbers", so he wasn't 100% dead after the second... but yeah, with 3 Medium Red insps I can effectively two-shot a DP'ed Scrapper, and Fire tankers have less HP.

[ QUOTE ]
But the point of this post was not purely to moan about the overpowered nature of stalkers. Thats been done to death already. No, I just want a way to survive it.

Right, survive that attack and dish out the damage on my own terms. First I need a way to resist holds, then I need a way to survive an assassin's two-strike, and finally a means to glue my enemy in place long enough to beat him senseless.

My character is a Level 50 Martial Arts/Regeneration scrapper. Yeah, not exactly stalker-killer material but I want to make the best of a bad PvP build.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're a regen, so you're a lot better suited to dealing with stalkers than most toons.

Other than "constantly keep moving", or "external defence buffs", the only real fool-proof solution to survive a AS + Follow Up attack from a single Stalker is for you to run Perma Dull Pain. Nothing short of a EM/ Stalker with a lot of external damage buffs will be able to 2-shot you through a slotted Dull Pain, so once AS'ed simply pop Reconstruction and/or IH and start wailing on the Stalker. From personal testing, I know that in Sirens Call on my EM/Regen Stalker it takes 3 medium red insps + Assault for me to be able to 2-shot my Dull Pain'ed Katana/Regen Scrapper (using Build Up --&gt; AS --&gt; Energy Transfer).

I can, however, two-shot any Non-Dull-Pained Scrapper using Build Up --&gt; AS --&gt; ET. Even a Spines/ running Quills, and bear in mind that as a /Regen I've got no AoE defences other than my unslotted Hide/Stealth.

So if you can achieve a "Perma Dull Pain" build you will virtually always avoid being 2-shotted by a single stalker. If you can avoid being subsequently Placated + AS'ed, you're effectively Stalker Proof.


[ QUOTE ]
Note: If you are double-ASed by two stalkers theres nothing you can do..

[/ QUOTE ]

Other than try for +defence, yep.

One of my Stalker's funniest moments in Sirens was in a completely random PUG pvp team of three Stalkers and another toon (MM, Brute? I forget...) It was on Defiant not so long ago, and teams were usually very scarce. We were all clustered in the usual paved area overhanging a hill that's not so far away from hero base, having just finished sending all the active Heroes (Mostly Scrappers and Blasters IIRC, maybe one troller) to the hospital when a Fire Tanker decided to log into the zone not 100 feet away from us.

The 30 second "entering PvP" tick began over his head, but he remained completely still. Now bear in mind that I can *just* about take on a INV tanker one-on-one in Sirens on my level 30 SO'ed Stalker, but a Fire Tanker is usually a bit much because I can't two-shot them (unlike non-Dull-Pain'ed Regen Scrappers) and spamming Healing Flames makes "scrapping" with them a exercise in futility... so I usually leave them be unless I'm teamed or have a few too many reds in my insp tray.

This time I was teamed though, so I typed "Tanker sighted" on team chat, SJ'ed right beside him and did the "/e batsmash" emote. He remained completely motionless. The other two stalkers both caught on - it's rare to find PUG Stalkers that will challenge a Tanker - and they took up positions on either side of me, all within melee range of the Fire Tanker. The tanker was still completely motionless, as his PvP timer kept counting down...

When the timer hit 5, I hit Build Up. The other two stalkers followed suit, and as soon as it hit zero we landed a successful triple AS upside his head. The Stalkers all fell about the place laughing on team chat, the Brute/MM "LOL"ed and "OWN"ed on broadcast, and accused us of being overpowered on teamchat, and the amount of abuse that got hurled at us from the heroes over broadcast was hilarious. For anyone who hasn't played a Stalker, achieving a multiple-AS is usually very difficult because of different stalker's stealth ratings and AS's interruption time, so it was a very rare occurance for me to see one that actually WORKED, and didn't need any kind of orders barked over teamchat.

I've some level of sympathy for the tanker who was on the receiving end of our combined attack spike... But if someone isn't going to move in a PvP zone for well over 30 seconds, or respond to the sound of "Build Up" being used right next to them, what do they expect if not a free one-way express trip to the Hospital?

The other funny moment that always pops into my head is when a certain flying BS/Regen Scrapper was boasting on broadcast about how weak the puny Stalkers were and that we couldn't possibly kill him... in the midst of a hero rush (scrappers + trollers) on villain base. He kept hovering over the water near the Oil Platform and using the Nemesis Staff on anyone he spotted. Completely unnoticed, I used my Temp power Flight pack plus the GvE jumppack to tail him for several minutes, bided my time, and eventually landed a successful AS + ET on him whilst he was in mid flight. He dropped straight out of the sky like an Armor-Plated Dustbin, got suitably mocked by both sides on broadcast, and logged off in disgust...

Oh, and all the /SR scrappers and /FF Trollers that think being bubbled or hiding in PFF will let them avoid getting killed when they're the bounty target of a Stalker with the "Force Of Nature" accolade...

Not sure if it'll help any, but this is the IO build I'm eventually going to get around to respeccing my Human/Dwarf into. He's more of a PvE toon these days though... for PvP the power pick order could use a bit of tweaking, but the chosen powers themselves and the slotting should be fine (maybe a few ranges in taunt).

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.21
http://www.honourableunited.org.uk/mhd.php

Level 50 Natural Peacebringer
Primary Power Set: Luminous Blast
Secondary Power Set: Luminous Aura
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Glinting Eye -- Decim-Acc/Dmg:40(A), Decim-Dmg/EndRdx:40(3), Decim-Dmg/Rchg:40(5), Decim-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg:40(13), Decim-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:40(48), Dev'n-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(50)
Level 1: Incandescence -- Aegis-Psi/Status:30(A), S'fstPrt-ResKB:30(46)
Level 2: Gleaming Blast -- Decim-Acc/Dmg:40(A), Decim-Dmg/EndRdx:40(3), Decim-Dmg/Rchg:40(5), Decim-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg:40(11), Decim-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:40(17), Dev'n-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(46)
Level 4: Essence Boost -- Numna-Heal/Rchg:50(A), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg:50(9), Mrcl-Heal/Rchg:40(9), H'zdH-Heal/Rchg:40(15)
Level 6: Radiant Strike -- C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg:50(A), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(7), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(7), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(11), C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg:50(15), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg:50(46)
Level 8: Hurdle -- Jump-I:50(A), Jump-I:50(50)
Level 10: Combat Jumping -- Ksmt-ToHit+:30(A), LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(50)
Level 12: Build Up -- HO:Membr(A), HO:Membr(13), HO:Membr(48)
Level 14: Super Jump -- HO:Micro(A)
Level 16: Health -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+:50(A), Mrcl-Rcvry+:40(17)
Level 18: Incandescent Strike -- C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg:50(A), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(19), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(19), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(21), C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg:50(21), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(42)
Level 20: White Dwarf -- Aegis-ResDam:50(A), Aegis-ResDam/Rchg:50(25), ResDam-I:50(25)
Level 22: Stamina -- EndMod-I:50(A), EndMod-I:50(23), EndMod-I:50(23)
Level 24: Reform Essence -- Numna-Heal/Rchg:50(A), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg:50(40), Mrcl-Heal/Rchg:40(40), H'zdH-Heal/Rchg:40(40)
Level 26: Solar Flare -- Sciroc-Acc/Dmg:50(A), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(43), Sciroc-Dmg/Rchg:50(43), Sciroc-Acc/Rchg:50(43), M'Strk-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(45), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(45)
Level 28: Hasten -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(29), RechRdx-I:50(29)
Level 30: Acrobatics -- EndRdx-I:50(A)
Level 32: Dawn Strike -- C'ngBlow-Dmg/Rchg:50(A), C'ngBlow-Acc/Rchg:50(33), Sciroc-Dmg/Rchg:50(33), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg:50(33), M'Strk-Dmg/Rchg:50(34)
Level 35: Photon Seekers -- HO:Nucle(A), BldM'dt-Dmg/EndRdx:50(36), BldM'dt-Dmg:50(36), RechRdx-I:50(36), RechRdx-I:50(37), RechRdx-I:50(37)
Level 38: Light Form -- Aegis-ResDam/Rchg:50(A), TtmC'tng-ResDam/Rchg:50(39), ImpArm-ResDam/Rchg:40(39), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg:40(39)
Level 41: Conserve Energy -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(42), RechRdx-I:50(42)
Level 44: Quantum Flight -- EndRdx-I:50(A), EndRdx-I:50(45)
Level 47: Restore Essence -- RechRdx-I:50(A)
Level 49: Super Speed -- Run-I:50(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Acc-I:50(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- ULeap-Stlth:50(A)
Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx-I:50(A)
Level 1: Cosmic Balance
------------
Level 20: White Dwarf Strike -- Acc-I:50(A)
Level 20: White Dwarf Smite -- Acc-I:50(A)
Level 20: White Dwarf Flare -- C'ngBlow-Acc/Rchg:50(A), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(31), Sciroc-Acc/Rchg:50(31), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(31)
Level 20: White Dwarf Sublimation -- Numna-Heal/Rchg:50(A), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg:50(27), Mrcl-Heal/Rchg:40(27), H'zdH-Heal/Rchg:40(34)
Level 20: White Dwarf Antagonize -- Acc-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(34), Taunt-I:50(37)
Level 20: White Dwarf Step -- Range-I:50(A)
------------
[u]Set Bonus Totals:[u]<ul type="square">[*]+4.5% Max Endurance[*]+23% Enhancement(Accuracy)[*]+37.5% Enhancement(RechargeTime)[*]+54.2 (4.5%) HitPoints[*]+Knockback (Mag -4)[*]+MezResist(Confused) (Mag 20%)[*]+MezResist(Held) (Mag 20%)[*]+MezResist(Immobilize) (Mag 29.9%)[*]+MezResist(Sleep) (Mag 21.7%)[*]+MezResist(Stun) (Mag 20%)[*]+MezResist(Terrorized) (Mag 20%)[*]+2.5% Recovery[*]+30% Regeneration[*]+3.13% Resistance(Negative)[*]+3% Resistance(Psionic)[*]+5% RunSpeed[/list]<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>| Copy &amp; Paste this data chunk into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build |
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</pre><hr />

At Level 40 you'll really start tailing off on damage output. A team will help more than anything else. As a PB one-on-one you should be extremely hard to kill, but you won't be able to kill enemies very easily.

Your most powerful attack (Incandescent Strike) does about 300 Damage when fully slotted at level 50 (400 with Build Up) and Radiant Strike does about 160 Damage (220 with Build Up). A full attack chain of Build Up --&gt; RS --&gt; IS --&gt; GB --&gt; GE will do about 870 damage at level 50... and at level 50 every AT except a MM has over 1000HP. You'll find it very difficult to take down any toon with a self heal that refuses to stand still (Photon Seekers can still ruin a stationary toon's day if used properly- unaffected by Build Up but nearly 700 Damage).

For a Build, take Build Up plus IS, RS, GS, GE as your main Human form attacks... plus Seekers, Flare and the Nuke if at all possible. Light form at 38 is very important since it's your "God Mode" and also lets you recover endurance immediately after a Nuke (PB nuke is only -100% Recovery compared to -1000% for Blasters). Take and slot up Essence Boost (Dull Pain) and Reform Essence (Reconstruction). If you're doing PvP you'll want Acrobatics, plus both SJ and Superspeed... so take the Fitness, Leaping and Speed pools.

Get White Dwarf at 20 or ASAP, slot the heal and setup a good Teleport bind since this is your main escape method. Your secondary escape method is Quantum Flight, which is GOLDEN: instant activation and you can stay phased for nearly 2 minutes when combined with Conserve Energy. Note that White Dwarf smite can stun and has a -fly component. Human form's RS and IS both also have -fly. Unfortunately outside Pulsar (very long activation, generally bad for PvP) and Dwarf Smite (not 100% chance) nothing you can do will reliably detoggle opponents. IS is only a Mag 3 hold and won't break through Acrobatics.

You're really going to do better in teams though. Cosmic Balance will HEAVILY improve your damage output in Human Form, and a speedboosted, Sonic-Bubbled Dwarf with accuracy, range and duration slotted in their taunt makes a very good PvP tanker. Capped resists, fear/confuse protection, uninterruptable self heal...

I toyed with PvP on my own Human/Dwarf for a while in I6/I7, his best moment was probably soloing a Granite Brute in RV. The Brute didn't move at all, and it still took well over the entire duration of Light Form (180 secs) to actually kill him. With low damage output and no "unresistable damage" that still felt like quite an achievement though... and the Brute wasn't half surprised that I was actually able to take him down...

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I do. /e smacks with a roll of newspaper. Not a single of my toons is fully IOed yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you misunderstood what i said.Most of PvPers imho that choose to step in a pvp zone at 50 are fully slotted "at least" with COMMON IO's i didnt refer to sets.Sets is a totally different story. But most out there step in pvp zones with full common IO's.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I didnt have full common IOs either... cba. Plus some of my toons didnt have money to make the common IOs..

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, just discovered this gem of a thread...

I can back Hammer up here, my Stalker "False Colour" is level 30.9, has all but one of his enhancement slots filled with level 30 SOs (he has a level 33 Leaping +Stealth IO in sprint) and does quite alright in Sirens... and my level 50 Regen scrapper and level 50 PB do zonal PvP every now and again and are still purely built with SOs.

In regards to the 'tank vs scrapper' argument, my Katana/Regen has only ever encountered one other melee toon that could reliably kill him, and that was due to the very short-lived "100% Fury-with-Power-Sink" bug. I'd go so far as to state that no melee toon can kill a well-played Regen providing that the Regen has a decently-slotted travel power. And I'd say that statement holds true for most (if not all) melee toons with a self-heal.

As I understand it, the whole point of kiting or "temporarily running away" from a Melee opponent in PvP is not to admit defeat to the other player, but to prevent that player from unloading their entire attack chain in your face. By kiting a melee toon you will break up their chain, take less damage, and give you time to counterattack. This is particularly useful if you have an uninterruptable self heal (which can be used whilst running/jumping away) and your opponent does not, since you will outlast them.

If Scrappers had access to Fire or Energy Melee, they might just be able to reliably kill an INV tanker one-on-one... without it, their damage type is just far too much resisted. I know from past experience that my Kat/Regen can unload attack chain after attack chain onto a Dull Pained, 90% S/L resist INV tanker without eating noticably into their green bar. And that was before +HP and +Regen IO set bonuses. If they used Aid Self or started kiting me, I'd never be able to take them down. Heck I'd not be surprised if nowadays an Empath could stay in Melee range of a Katana scrapper with Acro + Epic Shield + Healing Aura on Auto and simply not take enough damage to get particularly worried. S/L damage just sucks far too badly...

[ QUOTE ]
What I would really like is to know how to play a Stalker, effectively, in a mid to large sized team. Or even a small team come to that. Cant see any good advice about this.

I would like to play a team stalker some-day but all my efforts (and to a lesser extend efforts of freinds and stalkers I have teamed with) seem to result in an embaressment.

Aside from the obvious hide, AS nstiest enemy and get recall freind, any idea on this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Get Energy Melee...

I'm serious about that: EM is the primary that relies least on hiding and using AS (TF and ET don't do 2x damage from hidden) so you can stay and scrap without losing DPS. This means that (i) you stay in PBAoE buff range (ii) you don't need to placate mobs onto squishy teammates (iii) your teammates don't think you're running off and leaving them every other hit.

Secondaries? /DA has Oppressive Gloom which can help via the PBAoE stun. Ninjitsu is fairly self-sufficient and has Caltrops which can greatly boost survivability by itself. Energy Aura only really has the Endurance Leech (you shouldn't be low on end anyway in teams). Regen is probably the most self-sufficient and conters Stalker low base HP with Dull Pain. SR has slightly higher defence than EA, plus Quickness.

One thing to consider is that apart from Kins and the odd Thermal, buffers are few on villain side. When teaming you will be expected to stay in Melee range for the most part, and take some Aggro. If you're EM then you'll be staying in Melee range to scrap mobs. Despite the Stalker AT's low HP, /Regen can survive in melee range for long periods through a combination of Dull Pain and IH. The other secondaries have other tricks to help them Melee sucessfully for long periods, though SR and EA are at a disadvantage here since they only have defence to fall back on and no uninterruptable Heal/Gloom/Caltrops.

[ QUOTE ]
However, you are investing a power pool slot (stealth) rather than having 1 power from primary..

[/ QUOTE ]
True. It's a stepping stone to Phase Shift though...

What's the usual "PvP Empath" pools anyway? I'd assume Leaping and Fitness... Then two out of [Speed (Hasten/SS), Concealment (GI + Phase), Leadership (Buffs + Veng), Teleport (Recall/TP Self for Escaping)]?

[ QUOTE ]
as a pvp empath u really aren't gonna have time to be worrying about clickling on sprint every 120 secs or every time u get attacked. putting it in a power that is always on such as ss or sj is far more effective.

[/ QUOTE ]
Assuming that's the case (I see no reason why an Empath couldn't work retoggling sprint into their buff cycle very easily since it has no activation time at all, the Fort cycle would be an ideal place to slot it in):

Firstly that assumes that SS or SJ are going to be used constantly (fine for SS, but you have to pick between CJ or SJ) and secondly it's still using an extra enhancement slot... keeping (Sprint + Stealth) on at all times works out as less costly than running Superior Invis would, especially with the Defender inherent... and Ill/Emps seem to have little or no Endurance issues.

Heck, if you were running Sprint 24/7 you could even free up a SECOND slot (from Superspeed, since you hit the speed cap with only one Level 50 Run IO + Sprint) and it would give you better unsuppressed movement!

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Plus the fact that it really isn't all that endurance intensive to run even if you use it 24/7: Stealth + Sprint comes to (0.32 + 0.3 = 0.62) End per second unslotted. Superior Invis is 1.04 End per second unslotted.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, and superior invis is likely to be unslotted too

[/ QUOTE ]

0.62 is virtually identical to what you'd get if you slotted Superior Invis with two Endred SOs. For a real-world comparison, a level 50 endred IO in Stealth's default slot brings it down to 0.52 End/Sec total for (Stealth + Sprint). Superior Invis 3-slotted with level 50 Endred IOs is also 0.52 End/Sec...

So they're functionally identical, except you need an extra two slots on Superior Invisibility to get it down to the same Endurance usage (and the suppression time when attacked- 6 secs for SI versus 10 secs for Stealth).
You could think of it as a trade-off: for an extra 4 secs suppression time you get two extra enhancement slots, and as a bonus you only actually *need* to turn sprint on once every 120secs so it can cost you less end.

The other factor to consider is that as a Defender, Vigilance will probably help take care of endurance issues. Putting the Stealth IO in Sprint might not be "better" than using SS or SJ, but it'd give him "stealth" at level 2, and save a slot without causing any real trouble... and slots appear to be at a premium in that build.

[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, I was referring the the actual "remember to activate it every 120 seconds" thing. Would be nicer having it in a power that you actually use and have to activate regardless of stealth io or not. I have it in hover cause my stalker enters hover nearly always before AS (to kill the inertia from fly). Currently in Sirens call I am relying on stealth io+stealth+hide which is all nice and fine until I forget to activate hover beforehand and realize it by the time theres a scrapper trying to insert huge bonespikes to my ear.

[/ QUOTE ]

Aye. Unfortunately that's the downside to using the Stealth IOs at all. You need to stick them in a power you remember to use every 120 secs. Travel powers have problems with this: Hover and CJ tend to only be used when you're in close quarters with an enemy... Fly and SJ suppress and are incompatible with Hover/CJ. Only SS can be left on while attacking with no downside (other than endurance usage).

For me sprint is a good choice simply because I can toggle it on whether I'm currently using SJ or CJ... and I find it's fairly easy for me to remember to retoggle Sprint on my EM/Regen because the cycle time is identical to Dull Pain (120 secs). When I need to use Dull Pain, I know I can leave it until the "Dull Pain" buff icon on my tray starts blinking to turn sprint back on. By then my blue bar is usually full again anyway...

Sprint has an instant activation/deactivation after all... The Stealth IO kicks in immediately, or at least semi-immediately (0.5 second activation or thereabouts IIRC), so turning it on and back off again every 120secs is IMO a very small price to pay.

Plus the fact that it really isn't all that endurance intensive to run even if you use it 24/7: Stealth + Sprint comes to (0.32 + 0.3 = 0.62) End per second unslotted. Superior Invis is 1.04 End per second unslotted.

I've a Stealth IO in my Stalker's "Sprint". I do sometimes run low on endurance... but that's not down to "Sprint", he has Assault/Tactics, too few slots (only @ level 30) and a complete lack of any other IOs...