Maelwys

Ice is fine in PvP, in fact it's arguably the best Primary.
Not for the defense, but for Hibernate, Hoarfrost and the slow/recharge resistance.

Fire is the other PvP primary that's fairly common, for the Resists, Firey Embrace and Healing Flames.

For a PvP secondary, you want something that can deal fairly high single-target damage in a short space of time, and ideally something that can mez (to detoggle squishies). This is either Energy Melee (Build Up + Energy Transfer/Bonesmasher/Total Focus), Stone (Build Up, the 3 Mallets and Seismic Smash) or Super Strength (Rage and Haymaker/KO Blow). ET and Stone have Stuns, SS only has a weak hold, but lots of +ToHit and KO Blow is available at level 30 for Sirens Call.

Fire Melee doesn't have mez, gets its big attacks late, and its damage comes in "ticks" over time rather than all at once in a "spike". This makes it a poor choice for PvP despite the generally unresisted damage type.

If you want something that is reasonably good in both PvP and PvE, I'd pick SuperStrength or Stone Melee. And make sure that you take the AoE of the set ("Foot Stomp" or "Tremor") for PvE tanking.

Either SuperStrength or Stone Melee.

SS has Rage and KO blow by Sirens Call, Stone is a little better higher-up and has a bit more useful mez.
(a few Stone attacks cause Stun, and most of them have a very quick animation time, also gets -fly)

Neither of them will be as good as EM after level 39/40 though.
I've seen a few /Fires who do OK as well, but SS and Stone definately have the edge on ST spike damage.

The main problem with ToHit debuffs is they don't scale well against higher level mobs.

For instance, you only need a difference of 45% between your Defence and the mob's ToHit to hit the "cap". Against even-level foes, You can accomplish this with +45% Defence, or -45% ToHit, or a mixture of the two.

However, against higher-level foes the strength of the ToHit debuff drastically decreases. Against +2 foes, your debuffs are only 80% effective, so you'd need 56.25% -ToHit rather than -45% to achieve the same effect. Against +3s, -69.23% ToHit. Against +4s, -93.75% ToHit... and so on.

Look in the "Combat Modifiers" table here for a full list.

I'd definately go for Health rather than hurdle, since you can put the Numina/Miracle +recovery uniques in it, and Human form attacks are endurance intensive... I'd slap a FlightSpeed IO in Swift. And if possible, take Dwarf at 20. It makes a REALLY handy tank for early TFs.

My own current Human/Dwarf PB build I'm really happy with right now, and is below. He's got 37.5% Global Recharge (which is the equivilant of 5 LOTG +Recharges) in the build.

I thought I'd miss Pulsar, but TBH with Dwarfie so early, and Light Form on such a fast recharge, I've never actually needed it. Seekers/Solar Flare/Dawn Strike make a pretty light show though.

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.30
http://www.honourableunited.org.uk/mhd.php

Level 50 Natural Peacebringer
Primary Power Set: Luminous Blast
Secondary Power Set: Luminous Aura
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Glinting Eye -- Decim-Acc/Dmg:40(A), Decim-Dmg/EndRdx:40(3), Decim-Dmg/Rchg:40(5), Decim-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg:40(13), Decim-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:40(48), Dev'n-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(50)
Level 1: Incandescence -- Aegis-Psi/Status:30(A), S'fstPrt-ResKB:30(48)
Level 2: Gleaming Blast -- Decim-Acc/Dmg:40(A), Decim-Dmg/EndRdx:40(3), Decim-Dmg/Rchg:40(5), Decim-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg:40(11), Decim-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:40(17), Dev'n-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(46)
Level 4: Essence Boost -- Numna-Heal/Rchg:50(A), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg:50(9), Mrcl-Heal/Rchg:40(9), H'zdH-Heal/Rchg:40(15)
Level 6: Radiant Strike -- C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg:50(A), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(7), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(7), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(11), C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg:50(15), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg:50(46)
Level 8: Hurdle -- Jump-I:50(A), Jump-I:50(50)
Level 10: Combat Jumping -- Ksmt-ToHit+:30(A), LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(50)
Level 12: Build Up -- HO:Membr(A), HO:Membr(13), HO:Membr(46), Rec'dRet-Pcptn:20(48)
Level 14: Super Jump -- HO:Micro(A)
Level 16: Health -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+:50(A), Mrcl-Rcvry+:40(17)
Level 18: Incandescent Strike -- C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg:50(A), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(19), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(19), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(21), C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg:50(21), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg:50(42)
Level 20: White Dwarf -- Aegis-ResDam:50(A), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx:50(25), ResDam-I:50(25)
Level 22: Stamina -- Efficacy-EndMod:50(A), Efficacy-EndMod/Rchg:50(23), EndMod-I:50(23)
Level 24: Reform Essence -- Numna-Heal/Rchg:50(A), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg:50(40), Mrcl-Heal/Rchg:40(40), H'zdH-Heal/Rchg:40(40)
Level 26: Solar Flare -- Sciroc-Acc/Dmg:50(A), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(43), Sciroc-Dmg/Rchg:50(43), Sciroc-Acc/Rchg:50(43), M'Strk-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(45), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(45)
Level 28: Hasten -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(29), RechRdx-I:50(29)
Level 30: Acrobatics -- EndRdx-I:50(A)
Level 32: Dawn Strike -- C'ngBlow-Dmg/Rchg:50(A), C'ngBlow-Acc/Rchg:50(33), Sciroc-Dmg/Rchg:50(33), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg:50(33), M'Strk-Dmg/Rchg:50(34)
Level 35: Photon Seekers -- HO:Nucle(A), BldM'dt-Dmg/EndRdx:50(36), BldM'dt-Dmg:50(36), RechRdx-I:50(36), RechRdx-I:50(37), RechRdx-I:50(37)
Level 38: Light Form -- Aegis-ResDam/Rchg:50(A), TtmC'tng-ResDam/Rchg:50(39), ImpArm-ResDam/Rchg:40(39), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg:40(39)
Level 41: Conserve Energy -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(42), RechRdx-I:50(42)
Level 44: Quantum Flight -- EndRdx-I:50(A), EndRdx-I:50(45)
Level 47: Restore Essence -- RechRdx-I:50(A)
Level 49: Super Speed -- Run-I:50(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Acc-I:50(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- ULeap-Stlth:50(A)
Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx-I:50(A)
Level 1: Cosmic Balance
------------
Level 20: White Dwarf Strike -- Acc-I:50(A)
Level 20: White Dwarf Smite -- Acc-I:50(A)
Level 20: White Dwarf Flare -- C'ngBlow-Acc/Rchg:50(A), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(31), Sciroc-Acc/Rchg:50(31), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(31)
Level 20: White Dwarf Sublimation -- Numna-Heal/Rchg:50(A), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg:50(27), Mrcl-Heal/Rchg:40(27), H'zdH-Heal/Rchg:40(34)
Level 20: White Dwarf Antagonize -- Acc-I:50(A), Mocking-Taunt:50(34), Mocking-Acc/Rchg:50(37)
Level 20: White Dwarf Step -- Range-I:50(A)
------------
[u]Set Bonus Totals:[u]<ul type="square">[*]+6.3% Max Endurance[*]+23% Enhancement(Accuracy)[*]+37.5% Enhancement(RechargeTime)[*]+67.8 (5.63%) HitPoints[*]+Knockback (Mag -4)[*]+MezResist(Confused) (Mag 20%)[*]+MezResist(Held) (Mag 20%)[*]+MezResist(Immobilize) (Mag 29.9%)[*]+MezResist(Sleep) (Mag 21.7%)[*]+MezResist(Stun) (Mag 20%)[*]+MezResist(Terrorized) (Mag 20%)[*]+2.5% Recovery[*]+30% Regeneration[*]+3.13% Resistance(Negative)[*]+3% Resistance(Psionic)[*]+5% RunSpeed[/list]<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>| Copy &amp; Paste this data chunk into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|MHDz;4771;1303;1740;|
&gt;-J]5TMOXS80O@?(?_"MAR*-2.J)GI+U;K/==1#8V_;,R(Q-1`]#HMSN0M!O[XQDD;0L)S)0%'&amp;$T?#
C&lt;-XC/H@BGW/%_Q1%*?/L5_*+&gt;WU5/W)5%3RIGP2/Q7,ALXTHKJ^^5JG,\JJ&lt;W2&gt;\5+5^O0-L_3G;BD
)DJOXD52;*LOXJ^`XVUJN=$&amp;O@;K8*7Q_SV5.&gt]=73MW]D=JKYR*6*5&gt;@0',7Q[?S=-.X#?$(/%G#(
D!9"%B]_9BME^M_6A#M070(6L;;3@[K(&gt;[PI$Z.0;H]DM`1I0S.TQ(#P.W!'&lt;?`@5P_:/$NX-&amp;8&amp;P)6
=[;C_YW8R+)Y*N7M"L14)6*=J-U!$;Y2@J]?X(S94Y$K$;&lt;G+47YY1XP-'1Z).C2RNXETPF&gt?^_9YU
IGB7^A9[UC/4,[*+P?,04Y3^5LP]YMN&gt*&amp;.1QY$#SI)3`6]1)8/&lt;]CE1=B/?LKK[)U.0"R'AC6"U
GP.!E(HD&amp;O&gt;U@_\"+-,_D#9"$&amp;,G^`-1%PC=YH@@O/#T55;F'/['.ZX[&amp;R0A?YO1*GJ!'W.*2'^^&gt;$6
A%WG/?1!\F1]AK$&lt;TR1'A=JG%LO^&amp;L.P;B72HSEB.,-8XE&gt;"=IHDKKYO4IW#&gt;2D5C(8X=GUA5F)U!=9
ID(UW_('J7[&amp;DCFD+91,!%TL?IWE+S.U%;/?&gt;/J&lt;B*)!A5I@,%JW!!\^J-4L1/I&lt;`,#KK+R!%?B-LND
I.T0[EUC/+Q+R9"F4Q)QZBG&lt;J`X3O=SXF@\IF8!8%HEG(N,A17F2.89: :'JA(@3Q3!4NQ$1DX?U]\1V
.92W6H/)W@9IDY5F4:;5"S&lt;&amp;+*`OBBG"7A14G[!OPD:^G$K`7&lt;]*PEEE^PM?K@_JZY0[&gt;&gt;\[1M[*8@H
J-%8Q)S7'V\6_=[(3HV6X&gt;9$@@S!OKCRXN,&gt;?Q]=K?F.VAC#0A&lt;Y&amp;O,)$^'%M!G&lt;+U!OJ?['(6D/0BA
T+(LMK:38G$&amp;%[=:.KG70KZ]TVSA-[W;LLC2W&gt;N*V:M7L2SR.,8PST6QE^76GI;$9,-;4"LGJ?:52\=
VV!./.F]C4;K&amp;$@N[J!(E9RM5R%&lt;QH@/19&gt;&gt;ZQ]B1FB.!!38."L`W.$DA!^,MR@6[3'8$9_CA6;Y)6N
S-V*N:@\*07P9HQ8B1ON5]2`3?8[G&gt_G?1QXDVH.`/H;9SB/:&gt;&gt;R"H#`Z.3L8/?6S/ES7+F.6=&gt;AL@
M]IS6.%*&lt;X:W]'-'%;!B'P]6_!LS94X_CZC3#&lt;&gt;YIT"6T1D(49C&lt;I;OG^4;Y8.Z' 7?LN(WU-6?Z(@"_
2&lt;4S6:70'3A&gt;`P9@:AHS"VOHQ^AF0-]!61&lt;G6/W1"=@EW%"4W(MQ:!A84*VXBY_'X;FTAM5Q/CG+-Y*
Q&amp;V+G'TMK6!QE6P7G^NA2I,:/LKSOXM!M/P.6588H,X:TJ=TE`)^8L`"BNB&lt;X?2UV&amp;!3T1_:,G1AZ *%
[=FI5*U!;@'O$&amp;FYQV&amp;^WJ=TQ/&lt;JQ`V)UD'8&gt;BFD\)W@G1%V,'X*VC]&lt;3$#[3(;+W!B71#NM?_@$=:7
;PQ-Y)H"/.GP7!D3FE5@+YPXC!G^A0![/3)P*R&lt;Z8P(+Y[[L&amp;_BW*?^&gt;W,?$!?,?3:,`#[&amp;`K7(X]&lt;V
***`5IJ*#&amp;X.O((G?!J9F0KR1H"6EWT2G3;-P]FTJW"&gt;;036#1U+$RP3T+M]"V$"&gt;M!M0]H.0]\B?4,
237JAX3J&amp;&amp;QDN-62/[0]U#\G?WB8"/(JUP"`T9*3)T#$D,20U)#.D$19ZAC1R0]^0[H&amp;\OOH762MJ8@
``
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
</pre><hr />

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
All I was saying/implying was that your understanding of game mechanics was lacking.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's your opinion

[/ QUOTE ]Indeed. That's what it says in my sig.

[/ QUOTE ]


Mace got a buff recently to cast times, I'd place it above Axe but below SS now for ST damage output. It's one of the better AoE sets IIRC (it has a fair amount of cones) but it's a good bit more resisted than Fire.

I know Hammer doesn't have that high an opinion of it as a powerset though. Can't say I blame him either...

Yeah. It's virtually always better to be able to anticipate a threat than react to one when it happens.

In the case of the teammates, you could easily end up trying to multi-target through several people. If you target an empath and taunt, that empath might have YOU targetted, or a scrapper, or another defender... a toon's target isn't always another mob, let alone the mob that's hitting them. And if a mob DOES surprise a player, the instinct is to jump and/or run away, not stop what you're doing and target it.

Personally, I rotate my view around like a hawk when I'm tanking, and I watch the chat window for ambushes announcing themselves. I usually react when I see a nearby mob "twitch" (stop performing their "default" motionless/waiting animation and look towards my team before pulling their weapons out).

Jump towards them, taunt the one one at the front, footstomp the ones in the middle... The ones at the back need to run past my Aggro Aura to get to my teammates. "Hey guys, when you're finished with THAT mob, this one's ready..." It takes a certain knack to be able to keep the aggro of two full mobs on you at once without going over the aggro cap. But it's doable.

The most effective trick I've seen, and one of the most simple... is to avoid AV "splash" damage on teammates by having someone slow or immobilise a AV/GM and then you taunt it from range. At one point I tanked the four Patron AVs this way, the one the team was beating on was being taunted from range, the other three were giving me +defence in "invincbility" range. Done this with Monsters in Peregrine's Monster Island too.

Usually a good rule of thumb is to have the majority of a spawn pointed towards you but away from your teammates so they avoid being hit by any cone attacks. Jumping over a mob and taunting them as you pass overhead is probably one of the easiest methods of doing this... but bear in mind that taunt only affects 5 targets at a time, so follow it up with a good, hard AoE!

Source:

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If a Quantum hits you, it does negative energy. If it hits you and you're a Kheld, it does that negative energy plus a bonus wallop of more negative energy.

It used to be a bonus wallop of unresistable nictus damage, but now it's resistable negative energy.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

See here for the patch notes.

Note it's actually not quite yet in the current patch on test. Coming SOON (tm) though!

Update

[ QUOTE ]
You'll be happy to know that the Defense Debuff will be going back in and the Recovery Debuff reverted out in an upcoming patch. Also, the Temp power thing is going the way of the Dodo.

I'll take a look at all this again in I12 to try and balance out the Def/Resist inequality.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I suppose you could say "Unlimited Inf", but it's basically whatever you can get by farming mobs.

I'm quite poor on Villains actually. Mostly due to the lack of a good arcane salvage farming map on Villains, although I generally don't play on redside as much so I don't have a steady cashflow there. My Stalker only has about 100 mill worth of stuff on him, and my other villains are still mostly on Common IOs or even SOs.

Heroside I can't complain about inf, if I'm in the mood I can make over 40 million a day fairly easily. My INV/SS tanker has probably got the most pricey build out of my four fully-IO'ed level 50 heroes... Due to the big rise in LOTG +Recharge and Impervium Armor set prices, along with Membrane and Ribo HOs, it'd probably currently cost somewhere in the region of 600-700 million influence.

And I'm not one of the "richest" ones on the server by any stretch of the imagination...

I only farm inf when I actually want to buy something, not simply to pass the time. I always keep about 100 million inf on one of my heroes to pay for "impulse purchases", but beyond that I don't really farm inf regularly.

I'm currently down to about 55 million on that Heroside Balance after tweaking my INV/SS's build a bit (to squeeze out some more +recovery for the rage nerf), and I expect to make most of it back tonight. If that'd been a villain, I'd be farming the Television Nemesis Army map and it'd take me at least twice as long.

I just included Axe as an example of one of the traditionally lower-damage sets, I'd only intended the post to show an idea of where Superstrength sits compared to the other "high damage" sets for ST and AoE.

I didn't include Dual Blades because I don't know how I'd have included the whole combo-effects business.

On "Hurl": Yeah. I tried to avoid it in both SS and SM's chains, but since they were using Base recharge rate, SM simply ran out of attacks to cycle during the 10-sec chain. For damage/animation, Hurl beats Tremor...

Stone's a lot better than it looks when you just consider the recharge times. Attack numbers are nothing special, but due to their animation time they can literally be chained several times faster than they recharge.

In a real-game build, when you can slot up +recharge and run Hasten, Stone Melee damage skyrockets.
(Assuming you can handle the endurance drain, of course...)

[ QUOTE ]
They aren't what I'd get but then I'd do it on excel and it would be a summation of damage done until the endurance ran to 0, in short to the end bar. All sets will generally have peaks and troughs. They will differ in damage output over different time periods some will give better AoE and some will give better ST. Fire cleans up on damage overall but then there is nothing in its way of secondary effect but damage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stone and EM always outpace everything else on Single target damage, including non-Rage'd Superstrength.
This is due to the animation times rather than the recharge times for their heavy-damage attacks.

They will do this with a measurement period of 5 secs, they will do this with a measurement period of 5 hours.
Likewise, nothing compares to Fire Melee for AoE damage output over any given period of time.

If your Excel sheets say differently, I'd like to hear the reasoning.

-Maelwys

[ QUOTE ]
Super Strength is not gimped without Rage and is in fact the best offensive tanker set with rage as it currently stands.

Please check your figures before you shout DOOM!


[/ QUOTE ]

[u]Super Strength[u]

Jab - 30.3 Damage, 2 Secs, 3.54 End
Punch - 44.5 Damage, 4 Secs, 5.2 End
Haymaker - 73 Damage, 8 Secs, 8.53 End
KO Blow - 158.4 Damage, 25 Secs, 18.5 End
Hurl (Ranged) - 73 Damage, 15 Secs, 9.36 End
Foot Stomp (AoE) - 63.2 Damage, 20 Secs, 18.5 End

Total ST Potential: (15.15 + 11.125 + 9.125 + 6.336 + 4.8667 + 3.16) = 49.76 Dam/Sec total
Total AoE Potential: 63.2 Damage/20 Secs = 3.16 Dam/Sec

Full Chain: (30.3 + 44.5 + 73 + 158.4 + 73 + 63.2) = 442.4 Damage over 11.93 Secs.
Average DPS (Animation Time): 37.08
5 Sec Chain: HM (1.5) + Punch (1.2) + KO Blow (2.23) = 4.93 Secs
Total Damage in 5 Sec Chain = 275.9
10 Sec Chain: HM (1.5) + Punch (1.2) + KO Blow (2.23) + FS (2.1) + Punch (1.2) + HM (1.5) = 9.73 Secs
Total Damage in 10 Sec Chain = 456.6

Base Damage + Normal "3x Damage SO" slotting = 195.5% Damage.
Rage = +80% Damage.
Rage's boost to "normal-slotted attacks" = 195.5/80*100 = a 40.92% increase.


[u]Stone Melee[u]

Stone Fist - 44.5 Damage, 4 Secs, 5.2 End
Stone Mallet - 73 Damage, 8 Secs, 8.53 End
Heavy Mallet - 101.4 Damage, 12 Secs, 11.9 End
Seismic Smash - 158.4 Damage, 20 Secs, 18.5 End
Hurl Boulder (Ranged) - 73 Damage, 15 Secs, 9.36 End
Tremor (AoE) - 44.5 Damage, 14 Secs, 13.5 End

Total ST Potential: (11.125 + 9.125 + 8.45 + 7.92 + 4.8667 + 3.18) = 44.67 Dam/Sec total
Total AoE Potential: 44.5 Damage/14 Secs = 3.18 Dam/Sec

Full Chain: (30.3 + 44.5 + 73 + 158.4 + 73 + 63.2) = 494.8 Damage over 11.54 Secs
Average DPS (Animation Time): 48.88
5 Sec Chain: SF(0.57) + SM(1.17) + HM(1.17) + SS(1.5) + SF(0.57) = 4.98 Secs
Total Damage in 5 Sec Chain = 421.8
10 Sec Chain: SF(0.57) +SM(1.17) +HM(1.17) + SS(1.5) +SF(0.57) +HB(3.3) +SM(1.17) +SF(0.57) = 10.02 Secs
Total Damage in 10 Sec Chain = 612.3


[u]Energy Melee[u]

Barrage - 30.3 Damage, 2 Secs, 3.54 End
Energy Punch - 44.5 Damage, 4 Secs, 5.2 End
Bone Smasher - 73 Damage, 8 Secs, 8.53 End
Total Focus - 158.4 Damage, 20 Secs, 18.5 End
Energy Transfer - 202.9 Damage, 20 Secs, 10.2 End
Whirling Hands (AoE) - 44.5 Damage, 14 Secs, 13.5 End

Total ST Potential: (15.15 + 11.125 + 9.125 + 7.92 + 10.145 + 3.18) = 56.65 Dam/Sec total
Total AoE Potential: 44.5 Damage/14 Secs = 3.18 Dam/Sec

Full Chain: (30.3 + 44.5 + 73 + 158.4 + 202.9 + 44.5) = 553.6 Damage over 9.37 Secs
Average DPS (Animation Time): 59.08
5 Sec Chain: EP (0.57) + ET (1) + TF (3.3) = 4.87 Secs
Total Damage in 5 Sec Chain = 405.8
10 Sec Chain: BS (1.5) + EP (0.57) + ET (1) + TF (3.3) + EP (0.57) + WH (1.67) + BS (1.5) = 10.11 Secs
Total Damage in 10 Sec Chain = 640.8



[u]Firey Melee[u]

Scorch - 48.1 Damage, 3 Secs, 4.37 End
Fire Sword - 73 Damage, 6 Secs, 6.86 End
Breath of Fire (Cone) - 74.7 Damage, 10 Secs, 10.2 End
Greater Fire Sword - 144.2 Damage, 12 Secs, 13.5 End
Incinerate - 111.2 Damage, 10 Secs, 6.86 End
Fire Sword Circle (AoE) - 83.6 Damage, 20 Secs, 18.5 End
Combustion (AoE) - 57.8 Damage, 15 Secs, 13 End

Total ST Potential: (16.1333 + 12.1667 + 7.47 + 12.0417 + 11.12 + 4.18 + 3.8533) = 66.97 Dam/Sec total
Total AoE Potential: 83.6 Damage/20 Secs + 57.8 Damage/15 Secs + 74.7 Damage/10 Secs= 15.50 Dam/Sec

Full Chain: (48.1 + 73 + 74.7 + 144.2 + 111.2 + 83.6 + 57.8) = 592.6 Damage over 14.37 Secs
Average DPS (Animation Time): 41.22
5 Sec Chain: GFS (2.03) + Inc (1.67) + FSC (1.5) = 5.2 Secs
Total Damage in 5 Sec Chain = 339 (note: will actually be lower due to DoT nature of attacks)
10 Sec Chain: FS (1.83) + Scorch (1.67) + GFS (2.03) + Inc (1.67) + FSC (1.5) + Scorch (1.67) = 10.37 Secs
Total Damage in 10 Sec Chain = 508.2 (note: will actually be lower due to DoT nature of attacks)


[u]Battle Axe[u]

Gash - 44.5 Damage, 4 Secs, 5.2 End
Chop - 73 Damage, 8 Secs, 8.53 End
Beheader - 87.2 Damage, 10 Secs, 10.2 End
Cleave (NARROW Cone) - 122.8 Damage, 15 Secs, 14.4 End
Swoop - 101.4 Damage, 12 Secs, 11.9 End
Whirling Axe (AoE) - 44.5 Damage, 14 Secs, 13 End
Pendulum (Cone) - 84.5 Damage, 15 Secs, 14.4 End

Total ST Potential: (11.125 + 9.125 + 8.72 + 8.1867 + 8.45 + 3.1786 + 5.6333) = 54.42 Dam/Sec total
Total AoE Potential: 44.5 Damage/14 Secs + 84.5 Damage/15 Secs = 8.81 Dam/Sec. (17.00 with Cleave)

Full Chain: (44.5 + 73 + 87.2 + 122.8 + 101.4 + 44.5 + 84.5) = 557.9 Damage over 15.91 Secs
Average DPS (Animation Time): 35.07
5 Sec Chain: Gash (1.83) + Beheader (1.37) + Chop (1.83) = 5.03 Secs
Total Damage in 5 Sec Chain = 204.7
10 Sec Chain: Chop (1.83) + Beheader (1.37) + Cleave (2.87) + Pendulum (2.27) + Chop (1.83) = 10.17 Secs
Total Damage in 10 Sec Chain = 440.5


[u]Rankings[u]

- Damage per second (Animation time) -

Energy Melee - 59.08
Superstrength (Rage) - 52.25 (140.92% of Normal SS)
Stone Melee - 48.88
Firey Melee - 41.22
Superstrength (Normal) - 37.08
Battle Axe - 35.07


- Maximum Damage output in 5 Seconds -

Stone Melee - 421.8
Energy Melee - 405.8
Superstrength (Rage) - 388.80 (140.92% of Normal SS)
Firey Melee - 339
Superstrength (Normal) - 275.9
Battle Axe - 204.7


- Maximum Damage output in 10 Seconds -

Superstrength (Rage) - 643.44 (140.92% of Normal SS)
Energy Melee - 640.8
Stone Melee - 612.3
Firey Melee - 508.2
Superstrength (Normal) - 456.6
Battle Axe - 440.5



How's them for figures?

Note also that every Set except SS can go much higher than their above figures for 10 seconds using Build Up.

Given Hasten and "+Recharge" Set Bonuses, "Damage per second (Animation time)" is probably the most useful way of ranking damage output for min-maxxed builds, since it completely ignores attack recharge time.

The "Total ST Potential" and "Total AoE Potential" values are 'damage divided by recharge time' for each attack in the set, combined. So they should give an idea of a set's damage output over a long period of time.

[ QUOTE ]
It's like food, how do you know how it taste like before youve tried it?
CHILDREN refuse to eat...

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like mushrooms.

I don't need to eat every kind of mushroom under the sun to know that I don't like mushrooms. I don't like their smell, I don't like their texture, and I especially don't like their taste.

If someone were to say to me "Ahh, but you haven't tried THIS type of mushroom! Go on, you might like it" then I would consider that person to be not worth listening to. And I would not eat their mushroom.

But this is somewhat besides the point. Unless the person offering me the mushroom was completely misinformed about the exact species of that ugly little vegetable, then eating their mushroom would probably not kill me.

What Castle is doing isn't offering someone who doesn't like Mushrooms a few odd-looking Truffles. Rather, he is stuffing peanuts down the throat of someone who has a severe nut allergy.

Superstrength is an endurance-intensive, low-damage melee set. Rage brings it up to par with the damage of other such sets. Tankers/Brutes rely on a steady supply of endurance in order to solo, and to fulfil their role on teams. Superstrength is no exception, and as KO Blow and Footstomp are endurance-intensive and staples of the set, it suffers badly when exposed to ANY form of -recovery. Pair the new Rage with a Defensive set that does not have an endurance drain (Stone, DA, INV, etc.) and you have a recipe for complete disaster.

We do not need to play on test to know that this change is going to have a VERY NEGATIVE INFLUENCE on SS. We do not need to play on test to know there's going to be a massacre, only to determine the bodycount.

That said, I will be going onto test with my INV/SS tanker, and I will be sending a fresh petition each and every time his toggles drop due to a Rage crash. As my INV/SS currently solos Carnie maps on Live and I have no intention of behaving any differently on test, I fully expect the EU test "inbox" to be clogged for a while.

-Maelwys

[ QUOTE ]
I just despair that people capable of thinking like this, then launching a test that they know people won't like, are in charge of the dynamic of the "fun" the game produces.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I quite like Castle.

He gives us "real numbers" on stuff, he responds to queries helpfully and he's usually very "fair" in the way he designs powers. He's made some controversial decisions, but usually things are balanced out soon afterwards.

Unfortunately, this time he has made a bad decision and appears to want to run with it until i12. It appears to be due to his inexperience with playing SuperStrength in the real game, coupled with a desire to see "insps" used more often. I fully expect it to be rolled back or the -recovery period to be vastly toned down or removed.

Also, everything is now gearing up for i12. So there's no time to make more major changes to Rage until then. Which is why these proposed changes should NOT go live until the players are at least slightly convinced that it will not completely kill their enjoyment of playing SuperStrength toons.

[ QUOTE ]
I would challenge the remark that "The Devs are probably the best players at this game". Many of the Developers do not play CoH regularly on the live servers, although Castle and BaB do. During Playtesting, which is where this proposed change to rage was formulated, Castle will have tested isolated instances of running rage. This is not consistent with in-game experiences of actual Tanking or "Bruting". The fact that Castle had to use BaB's tanker to test it and did not have a Tanker of his own is proof enough that Castle does not have experience with real in-game high-level tanking.

[/ QUOTE ]

In case anyone still has doubts about the above point, I submit the following point as further evidence:

(Castle's Statement)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Foot Stomp, Energy Torrent, Air Superiority, anything that keeps an enemy off his feet is time they can't sit there and hit me.

[/ QUOTE ]
And yet, on Live currently you can do none of those things. This is a contradiction of the highest order -- a knee jerk reaction to a change. The sheer volume of this sort of reaction to this has made getting a real feel for it nigh impossible, which is why it is going to the Training Room and probably live for a while where I can get actual data instead of fear, uncertainty and doubt.

I am sorry that people think this is being unfair, but I really must proceed this way.

[/ QUOTE ]
(Player response)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He's referring to doing this PRIOR to the crash and inactivity. The taunt time or the knockback time carries over into the period of inactivity from "only affects self."

This can be done without reliance on inspirations or particular IOs and is a common tactic for Rage tankers. This isn't a contradiction of any order. It's an experienced Rage user failing to take into account your (apparent) lack of experience with the use of the power - just miscommunication.

I would expect the "sheer volume" of the dislike for this change to make you consider that maybe it really isn't a good idea. Instead, you've decided it's going live (to be looked at again, maybe, if there's time... in 3, 6, 12 months "soon"). Any other response is just over-emotional, ignorant, knee jerk reactions... and you're going to force the thing down our throats knowing how unpopular it is. Datamining an unpopular idea on live really isn't a good reason to make so many people upset when you have a test server.

And if no one comes to test, that should tell you something, too. Look, spaghetti flavored ice-cream isn't sold in stores. There's probably no one even asking for it. Sure, someone out there might like it...but not enough to sustain the effort. Your idea is the equivalent of forcing everyone to eat it just so you can get a "feel" for its potential success and then saying anyone who doesn't want to try it is just being close-minded.


[/ QUOTE ]

2 points for Omega. This is how I deal with the Rage Crash presently. A Foot Stomp or Hand Clap right before the Rage Icon stops blinking. It is annoying not to be able to do anything for 10 seconds, but my Brute can handle it. I'm sure a Tanker, with better D and more HP can weather those 10 secs too.

Kill the End debuff, or lessen its severity. This is not fun as is.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with the bottommost post 100%. This is exactly how my own Tanker holds aggro during a crash, and it is clear that Castle has no experience with the use of Rage under real in-game Tanking conditions.

Also note here that BaB himself is suprised and likely a bit miffed by the change.

Shannon, the recovery is going to be a pain regardless of whether you are "low on end" or not. Even FA, with Consume, will have a very hard time keeping up with a regular loss of over 50 endurance every 120 seconds.

I would challenge the remark that "The Devs are probably the best players at this game". Many of the Developers do not play CoH regularly on the live servers, although Castle and BaB do. During Playtesting, which is where this proposed change to rage was formulated, Castle will have tested isolated instances of running rage. This is not consistent with in-game experiences of actual Tanking or "Bruting". The fact that Castle had to use BaB's tanker to test it and did not have a Tanker of his own is proof enough that Castle does not have experience with real in-game high-level tanking.

Please enlighten me as to when you see Rage being "a little bit of a buff". At present, I see zero use for the power at all times, unless you are an Ice Tanker or Brute with a regular, autohit Endurance drain.

[u]Solo:[u] over 50 endurance every two minutes just to keep your toggles up during the crash is not remotely sustainable. The upsides of Rage are greatly outweighed by the negative impacts of the crash. The only time it is remotely going to be useful is when coupled with the Geas accolade or Unstoppable, and even then you will STILL lose over half your endurance bar every two minutes, but simply regain end faster afterwards. At this point I doubt it is even possible to run all your Toggles + Hasten, and keep attacking during the crash, even if you are initally at full endurance (and how often does that actually happen in-game?).

[u]Teamed:[u] The only time Rage is useful on teams is when that team is lacking Damage output. The crash will be unsumountable unless there is a Kinetic on the team. When there is a kin, you will not need +damage.

By the way, I make it 53.9 -Endurance total for doing nothing but running toggles/taunting on my INV/SS tanker (-27.5 for the initial endurance crash, -1.76 end per second during the -recovery). If he was running Hasten and it crashed, that's another -15% (16.5 with accolades). If he was attacking (just spamming Footstomp), that's 11.3 End per use every 6.69 seconds (down from 18.5 per use base every 20 seconds with Hasten and IO slotting) so assume I use it twice during the crash - bringing the total to (53.9 - 16.5 - (2*11.3)) = 93 Endurance total. That's one Knockout Blow away from a total Endurance drain. Every 120 seconds.

Heaven help any SS Tankers that don't have +Recovery Set bonuses and a large amount of Endred slotted.

-Maelwys

I'm with Lionsbane on this one. A version of Rage that features fifteen seconds of zero recovery with a 25% Endurance crash at the start of that period is going to go to test, then on to live until at least after i12.

My INV/SS Tanker is heavilly, heavilly, IO'ed. He has stacks of +recovery and endred in his powers.

This change means that every time he uses rage, it costs him 78.5 points of Endurance total through lost +recovery. If he only runs his toggles and does nothing but taunt, he will lose 53.9 Endurance total.

HE WILL NOW BE UNPLAYABLE IF HE EVER USES RAGE.

I was annoyed enough about the last rage -25% Endurance "bugfix". I am not a happy bunny right now.

If my INV/SS was my only level 50 toon, I would probably leave the game over this. As it is, I will not be playing my Tank again until Rage is fixed. It is now unusable, let alone "balanced" or a desirable power pick.

-Maelwys.

The enhancement itself is level 21-50, The level 50 ones are currently priced at around 6 million hero-side, it's about 500k to craft and they need a "Pangean Soil" which is another 4 million.

Pre-crafted ones are going for about 10 million.

To benefit from it? Just stick it into Stamina, using a 4th slot. Though don't expect wonders. At 20% chance every 10 seconds, it averages out at about 0.2 +End per second, less than the toggle cost of Invincibility.

Chance for endurance is that Recovery Set Proc that has a small chance to return 10 endurace. It's a ridiculous argument, frankly, that you should have to carry a certain type of inspiration or take a certain type of IO in order to compensate for the effects of one of your powers.

And "Chance for recovery" slotted into stamina isn't really a valid workaround anyway, since as a Proc it will only have a 20% chance to recover 10 Endurance once every ten seconds.

Castle in this case is looking at Rage completely out of context from a real in-game experience. Look at what he says: starting from 50% endurance he came close to zero during a crash. That's around 50 Endurance used (since he was using BAB's Tanker which almost certainly has +End Accolades). Any Tankers here that think that losing a spike of 50 Endurance every 120 seconds (or sooner with stacked rage) is remotely fair? Consider that the current Rage only costs 25%, and many Tankers will currently frequently dip below or operate below 50% endurance under normal gaming conditions.

Bear in mind that with Hasten running you will have ANOTHER periodical endurance crash to contend with. What if both happen at once? 65 Endurance or more, just *gone*. Cue detoggling, followed by a faceplant...

[ QUOTE ]
In addition, if the cap was applied after resistance had been applied, any excess buffage would counter damage resistance, countering all the complaints about AVs with high S and L resistance on the US boards.

[/ QUOTE ]
See here:

[ QUOTE ]
In short:
1) I will almost certainly never have the time to go back and re-balance 5 years worth of critter design to correct "imbalances" in resistance types. (Why does no one ever mention the imbalances in Defense types? Oh yeah, players compensate for that.)
2) The changes to Assassin Strike damage types were NOT made (although, I did fix Energy Melee and Martial Arts damage types since they were inadvertantly markes as Lethal.)
3) The extended critical is being changed again -- from 4% buffable to 7% unbuffable. The Scale 5.5 base critical damage will remain as is on test currently.
4) I'll look into the impact altering Lethal AS to Toxic would have. I dislike it thematically, but it ought to work mechanically.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also here:

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1. AS costs No Endurance, or very little Endurance.
2. Placate Recharge to match AS's Recharge
3. Build Up +Damage Increased to 100%
4. Damage Modifier Increased to .90, or 1.00


[/ QUOTE ]
1) No.
2) And PVPers everywhere lynch me. As there is no way to decouple PVE/PVP in regards to recharge on a power, this cannot be done.
2a) Adding AoE to Placate steps on the toes of a Ninjitsu power, which I'd personally like to avoid doing. Very conditional 'Maybe'.
3) Again, No.
4) Very conditional Maybe.

Most of these increase Stalker PVP performance, and since they are extremely good in that realm, I can't do them. If you want to provide suggestions, focus on suggestions that increase PVE performance while leaving PVP performance untouched OR decreased.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
It depends when the crash happens. Obviously a crash taking you to 10 end could mean that eventually your toggles will cost enough end to drop you in 10 secs. Invulns don't recuperate end well or resist end drain. No end recovery will hurt them more than anyone I can think off. I don't think its as sadistic as losing the ability to control though.

[/ QUOTE ]

DA Brutes have a much higher endurance use than INV. WillPower Tankers/Brutes' Quick Recovery AND Stamina AND +Recovery Set bonuses will all be disabled for the duration of the crash.

INV will have problems, but nothing compared to a SS/DA Brute.

Also, you are seriously underestimating the amount of endurance that 10 seconds of 0% Recovery will cost you on a team. it is considerably worse than a -25% Endurance crash, and we STILL have had no confirmation that the recovery debuff is replacing rather than adding to the -25% end crash.

How much Endurance can you recover in 10 seconds? That is how much Endurance "0% Recovery" costs you. NOT how much you actually USE during the 10 seconds. For my INV/SS Tanker: Solo, it would be around 34 End (assuming I'm not using Unstoppable or the Geas accolade). Teamed, anything from 40+ End depending on buffs.

I'd much rather see either a tohit debuff, or the endurance bar LOCKED at a certain value (ie, can't decrease or increase) for the duration of the crash.

Apparently it's being changed again from 4% buffable to 7% unbuffable.

Should still be fairly powerful though, and if my maths is right (fat chance!) it's going to work out as a slight damage buff against normal critters. Though "Build Up" won't add quite as much damage now.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fire is the only Tanker set without an autohit taunt aura, and it gets access to Burn which wouldn't be affected by the -damage or tohit debuff.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a pet.

Only certain buffs/debuffs carry across to pets, and only those that you have on you at the time of casting.

Even if it DID carry across:
(i) Providing that you drop Burn before Rage actually wears off, the patch won't get debuffed by the crash.
(ii) The base accuracy of Burn is insanely high. It's likely it would still hit even *with* a -tohit debuff.

Being countered by FA is largely irrelevant... since it could just as easily be countered by Fortitude or Forge. Or Tactics and the Kismet IO for that matter. From what I've seen the devs don't really care about buffs overriding debuffs as long as they aren't in the same power- look at Granite Armor's -recharge (it can be somewhat countered by Hasten) or Absorb Pain's -health (can be countered by Regen Aura), etc.

As long as the tohit debuff is sufficently high enough that Stacking Rage won't overcome it, it should be fine. Slotted Rage can boost your ToHit by about 31%, so a debuff in the region of -50% should do it. That's high enough to make you miss considerably unless you are very highly buffed (eg. Stacked Rage AND FA/Fort/Forge)

The fact that Tanks get access to FA and Brutes don't is also pretty much irrelevant from a development POV. From the player's POV: Tanks get FA, Brutes don't. Tankers can keep hitting stuff through the crash at the cost of a lot more endurance. Brutes get Fury, Tanks don't... so they can keep building +damage during the crash.

Changing Rage to Build Up isn't going to happen. It would require too much of a change to what that power actually does, and would require a radical rebalancing of the SS set. From Geko's old posts on the US boards, SS's damage output numbers are balanced around Rage- it isn't simply a "tack-on" in place of Build Up.

[ QUOTE ]
Ah heavy -tohit would make it unfair on the hit-check taunt aura's (dark, fire, stone, elec), so it nothing better then the -def version (ice, EA, inv - where the last has good resist to overcome that).

[/ QUOTE ]

Fire is the only Tanker set without an autohit taunt aura, and it gets access to Burn which wouldn't be affected by the -damage or tohit debuff. Stone's Slow component (and therefore the taunt) is autohit.

On CoV, The Brute sets Fire, Dark and Elec are not autohit (as far as I know, the -endurance on Elec requires a tohit check) but remember that they'd be no worse off than they are currently (the only-affecting-self crash). And Fury generation won't be affected since Brutes still gain Fury even when they "miss" enemies.

So Taunt could be used without issue, you could still deploy "pets" like Burn and you could still gain Fury. And allied +ToHit buffs are much more common than allied +Endurance (note: 'endurance' not 'recovery') buffs. It seems to me that -tohit is a lot more fair than -defence, -resistance or -recovery.