Either SuperStrength or Stone Melee.
SS has Rage and KO blow by Sirens Call, Stone is a little better higher-up and has a bit more useful mez.
(a few Stone attacks cause Stun, and most of them have a very quick animation time, also gets -fly)
Neither of them will be as good as EM after level 39/40 though.
I've seen a few /Fires who do OK as well, but SS and Stone definately have the edge on ST spike damage.
I'm not a massive PvP player but what I have heard is:
1) Primary Ice (Ice Armour) is not that good in PvP, but like i said it's what I have heard. Apparently the explanation was because it's defence and not damage resistance.
The attacker can just pop a few yellows and its reasonably easy to bypass Ice Armour's Defences. Whereas Damage Resistence is that you take a lesser amount of damage when hit, unless attacker has popped reds.
2) I would probably go for either Fire/Energy or Ice secondary, not for the smashing/lethal component but more for the secondary effects. Fire - apparently great AoE and DoT. Energy - some component of energy damage (but i know you want to avoid this). Ice - slow effects with some controllerish powers.
I would recommend playing a tank before thinking of powers for PvP and to look at your playstyle.
I'm not sure if you can overcome the Smashing/Lethal resistance/defence easily.
@Eiceman
Morphius - MA/Regen - Union
Taelan - Ice B/Ice M - Union
Hellyon - Ice A/SS - Defiant
Bubbletastic - FF/Energy B - Union
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not a massive PvP player but what I have heard is:
1) Primary Ice (Ice Armour) is not that good in PvP, but like i said it's what I have heard. Apparently the explanation was because it's defence and not damage resistance.
The attacker can just pop a few yellows and its reasonably easy to bypass Ice Armour's Defences. Whereas Damage Resistence is that you take a lesser amount of damage when hit, unless attacker has popped reds.
2) I would probably go for either Fire/Energy or Ice secondary, not for the smashing/lethal component but more for the secondary effects. Fire - apparently great AoE and DoT. Energy - some component of energy damage (but i know you want to avoid this). Ice - slow effects with some controllerish powers.
I would recommend playing a tank before thinking of powers for PvP and to look at your playstyle.
I'm not sure if you can overcome the Smashing/Lethal resistance/defence easily.
[/ QUOTE ]
See i was told ice/energy was FOTM for PVP it will be primary for PVE see im trying not to lean towards Regen scrapper (for mainly pvp) there is so many it just ruins the groove a bit for me.
I have a Ice/Fire at the moment who im duoing with a mate but he aint logged on in like 1 week so im tempted just to play her!
Ice is fine in PvP, in fact it's arguably the best Primary.
Not for the defense, but for Hibernate, Hoarfrost and the slow/recharge resistance.
Fire is the other PvP primary that's fairly common, for the Resists, Firey Embrace and Healing Flames.
For a PvP secondary, you want something that can deal fairly high single-target damage in a short space of time, and ideally something that can mez (to detoggle squishies). This is either Energy Melee (Build Up + Energy Transfer/Bonesmasher/Total Focus), Stone (Build Up, the 3 Mallets and Seismic Smash) or Super Strength (Rage and Haymaker/KO Blow). ET and Stone have Stuns, SS only has a weak hold, but lots of +ToHit and KO Blow is available at level 30 for Sirens Call.
Fire Melee doesn't have mez, gets its big attacks late, and its damage comes in "ticks" over time rather than all at once in a "spike". This makes it a poor choice for PvP despite the generally unresisted damage type.
If you want something that is reasonably good in both PvP and PvE, I'd pick SuperStrength or Stone Melee. And make sure that you take the AoE of the set ("Foot Stomp" or "Tremor") for PvE tanking.
You have heard wrong, Ice (hibernate), fire(healing flames) and invul are all good primaries in PVP. Stone is relatively bad due to that it tends to rely too much on granite, and you arent much use to anyone while in granite let alone be able to kill anybody.
Ice/ss would make a great tanker for taunting which pretty much is their jobs in teams. If you want zonal fun either ice/em or fire/em I prefer fire/em
[ QUOTE ]
Ice is fine in PvP, in fact it's arguably the best Primary.
Not for the defense, but for Hibernate, Hoarfrost and the slow/recharge resistance.
Fire is the other PvP primary that's fairly common, for the Resists, Firey Embrace and Healing Flames.
For a PvP secondary, you want something that can deal fairly high single-target damage in a short space of time, and ideally something that can mez (to detoggle squishies). This is either Energy Melee (Build Up + Energy Transfer/Bonesmasher/Total Focus), Stone (Build Up, the 3 Mallets and Seismic Smash) or Super Strength (Rage and Haymaker/KO Blow). ET and Stone have Stuns, SS only has a weak hold, but lots of +ToHit and KO Blow is available at level 30 for Sirens Call.
Fire Melee doesn't have mez, gets its big attacks late, and its damage comes in "ticks" over time rather than all at once in a "spike". This makes it a poor choice for PvP despite the generally unresisted damage type.
If you want something that is reasonably good in both PvP and PvE, I'd pick SuperStrength or Stone Melee. And make sure that you take the AoE of the set ("Foot Stomp" or "Tremor") for PvE tanking.
[/ QUOTE ]
Dont forget Seismic smash is a mag 4 hold so cuts thru arco on squishies, oh and theres 2 mallets :P
Nothing like good old energy melee for pvp tanks. Lightyears away I'd go stone, only for the hold. Getting aoes gimp your build tho, there is not such thing as 'hybrid' builds for pve and pvp in this game. A good build for the first means a gimped build for the latter
If u don't want to go ice or nrg for a tank then the only real other option would be imo fire/ss which is better than /nrg from sirens downwards. Although i would hold off creating any ss tanks until the rage change is clarified if i was you though.
@NeoArc
@Neo Arc
@Neon Arc
Member of the 1AT
[ QUOTE ]
Getting aoes gimp your build tho, there is not such thing as 'hybrid' builds for pve and pvp in this game. A good build for the first means a gimped build for the latter
[/ QUOTE ]
I'd disagree here. It's quite possible to build a toon that is good in PvE and perfectly acceptable in the majority of PvP. The build is often likely to be VERY tight though, and doesn't leave much room for "concept".
For instance, most damage-dealer toons with the Speed, Leaping, Medicine and Fitness pools can fare reasonably well in both PvE and PvP. Similarly, a Fire/ or Ice/ Tanker with Speed, Leaping and Fitness could fare perfectly well assuming that they take one of the better PvP secondaries and *focus* on single target attacks for PvP, taking only one or two AoEs for PvE aggro-control.
And slot taunt with accuracies as well as the standard-PvE Duration/Recharge, obviously... 
Good PvE tanking ability really doesn't need that much extra work beyond a standard PvP build. You'll already have high defenses and a well-slotted taunt... so one AoE will easilly suffice.
If we're talking about completely min-maxxed PvP builds, then obviously there are plenty of PvP toon builds that won't fair well at soloing in PvE. Like the "Pure Empath" Ill/Emp controller. For more casual PVP or Teamed PvE though, there's no reason that most "hybrid" builds wouldn't work fine.
You can get a very good hybrid build for a Fire/SS tank
thePhilosopher Martial Arts/Regen/Fire Scrapper
theRegulator Empathy/Energy/Soul Defender
Total Inertia Ice Blast/Kinetics/Psy Corruptor
Total Inferno Ice Blast/Thermal/Leviathan Corruptor
[ QUOTE ]
For instance, most damage-dealer toons with the Speed, Leaping, Medicine and Fitness pools can fare reasonably well in both PvE and PvP.
[/ QUOTE ]
But that would mean wasting some precious power slots on a second travel power, let alone skipping aoes and focusing on single target attacks if you wanted a PvP spec 
[ QUOTE ]
Similarly, a Fire/ or Ice/ Tanker with Speed, Leaping and Fitness could fare perfectly well
[/ QUOTE ]
Ice defenses are worthless in PvP. In fact, you want EA slotted 3 rech 3 endmod for pvp, whilst for pve you want 3 defbuffs instead. You need to slot acc on taunt, and have it 6 slotted too, and need permafrost. Besides fighting pool, that is so cool for pve should be replaced, most likely by concealment, which is also a waste for pve. Attacks, you just want single target as said, so in order to have a good pvp build you should skip each and every aoe you can get, and epics, there's no more options than getting FA (forget about fire epics aoe goodness)
To be honest, I'm not entirely sure why Ice Armours are so glorified on these forums. I've only seen Ice been used a few times, and seen the other sets used better more frequently.
Granite can be a good panic button if you see something coming that can take you, and if you have enough burst damage you can get rep by surviving on the non GA armours.
Fire has great survivability, a +end, Burn, Build Up, and a very overpowered heal. This definetely gives the most damage.
Invulnerability gets Dull Pain and huge S/L Resistance, and with Aid Self can be very tough.
Ice? Ice gets Hibernate. The Defence, in my opinion, is pretty much useless against "PvPers" that will easily have enough Accuracy and ToHit to counteract your defences.
Primaries, if you don't want Energy: Stone has high damage as well as stupid endurance... Battle Axe has high damage too, similar to that of Broadsword. Superstrength is okay from experience, although the lack of a serious mez is a downfall.
Ice has dull pain and hibernate, which makes it by a huge gap the most survivable tanker in pvp
Perma Hoarfrost, 62.5% Global Recharge, 41.5% Defence to S/L/E/N without Energy Absorption, Capped RunSpeed, Capped Jumpspeed, +Perception, Footstomp recharges in 6.5 seconds, KO Blow in 7.8 Secs.
Constant +68.4% ToHit. Hibern00b is slotted for Healing. About all that's missing for PvP is Permafrost, and you can swap that in for the Fighting pool if you decide it's worth it for the extra 20% slow resistance.
Swap out the fighting pool for anything you fancy, Leadership, Concealment, etc. It makes little difference to the toon's survivability. A Hybrid build that I'd be quite happy to play in PvE or most PvP situations.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.30
http://www.honourableunited.org.uk/mhd.php
Level 50 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Ice Armor
Secondary Power Set: Super Strength
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Frozen Armor -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx:50(11), RedFtn-EndRdx/Rchg:50(11), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg:50(13), RedFtn-Def:50(43), RedFtn-EndRdx:50(43)
Level 1: Jab -- Acc-I:50(A)
Level 2: Hoarfrost -- Numna-Heal/Rchg:50(A), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg:50(3), Mrcl-Heal/Rchg:40(3), H'zdH-Heal/Rchg:40(9), Aegis-Psi/Status:50(9), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+:30(13)
Level 4: Haymaker -- C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg:50(A), C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg:50(5), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(5), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(7), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(7), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg:50(15)
Level 6: Wet Ice -- EndRdx-I:50(A), EndRdx-I:50(15)
Level 8: Hurdle -- Jump-I:50(A), Jump-I:50(46)
Level 10: Chilling Embrace -- EndRdx-I:50(A), EndRdx-I:50(19)
Level 12: Combat Jumping -- Ksmt-ToHit+:30(A), LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(45)
Level 14: Super Jump -- HO:Micro(A), HO:Micro(46)
Level 16: Taunt -- Mocking-Acc/Rchg:50(A), Zinger-Acc/Rchg:50(17), Mocking-Taunt/Rchg/Rng:50(17), Mocking-Taunt/Rng:50(40)
Level 18: Health -- Numna-Heal:50(A), Numna-Heal/EndRdx:50(19), Numna-Regen/Rcvry+:50(34), Mrcl-Heal:40(34), Mrcl-Rcvry+:40(34), RgnTis-Regen+:30(37)
Level 20: Stamina -- P'Shift-EndMod:50(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg:50(21), EndMod-I:50(21)
Level 22: Knockout Blow -- C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg:50(A), C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg:50(23), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(23), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(25), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(25), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg:50(33)
Level 24: Glacial Armor -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx:50(31), RedFtn-EndRdx/Rchg:50(31), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg:50(31), RedFtn-Def:50(42), RedFtn-EndRdx:50(43)
Level 26: Hasten -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(27), RechRdx-I:50(27)
Level 28: Rage -- HO:Membr(A), HO:Membr(29), HO:Membr(29)
Level 30: Super Speed -- HO:Micro(A), HO:Micro(46)
Level 32: Hibernate -- Dct'dW-EndRdx/Rchg:50(A), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg:50(33), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg:50(33), Dct'dW-Heal:50(45), Dct'dW-Rchg:50(45)
Level 35: Energy Absorption -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A), LkGmblr-Def/Rchg:50(36), Efficacy-EndMod/Rchg:50(36), P'Shift-EndMod:50(36), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg:50(37), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc/Rchg:50(37)
Level 38: Foot Stomp -- Sciroc-Acc/Dmg:50(A), Sciroc-Dmg/Rchg:50(39), Sciroc-Acc/Rchg:50(39), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(39), M'Strk-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(40), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(40)
Level 41: Focused Accuracy -- HO:Cyto(A), HO:Cyto(42), HO:Cyto(42)
Level 44: Boxing -- Acc-I:50(A)
Level 47: Tough -- Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:50(A), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx:50(48), ImpArm-ResDam:40(48), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx:40(48)
Level 49: Weave -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx:50(50), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx:50(50), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg:50(50)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Acc-I:50(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- ULeap-Stlth:50(A)
Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx-I:50(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
------------
[u]Set Bonus Totals:[u]<ul type="square">[*]+4% DamageBuff[*]+3% Defense(Smashing)[*]+3% Defense(Lethal)[*]+3% Defense(Fire)[*]+3% Defense(Cold)[*]+3% Defense(Energy)[*]+3% Defense(Negative)[*]+3% Defense(Psionic)[*]+3% Defense(Melee)[*]+3% Defense(Ranged)[*]+3% Defense(AoE)[*]+1.8% Max Endurance[*]+23% Enhancement(Accuracy)[*]+4% Enhancement(Heal)[*]+62.5% Enhancement(RechargeTime)[*]+10% FlySpeed[*]+112.4 (6%) HitPoints[*]+10% JumpSpeed[*]+MezResist(Confused) (Mag 20%)[*]+MezResist(Held) (Mag 22.8%)[*]+MezResist(Immobilize) (Mag 31%)[*]+MezResist(Sleep) (Mag 21.7%)[*]+MezResist(Stun) (Mag 20%)[*]+MezResist(Terrorized) (Mag 22.2%)[*]+5% Recovery[*]+42% Regeneration[*]+3.78% Resistance(Fire)[*]+3.78% Resistance(Cold)[*]+3.13% Resistance(Negative)[*]+3% Resistance(Psionic)[*]+15% RunSpeed[/list]<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>| Copy & Paste this data chunk into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
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</pre><hr />
[ QUOTE ]
Ice has dull pain and hibernate, which makes it by a huge gap the most survivable tanker in pvp
[/ QUOTE ]
Plus it can cap slow resistance as well 
@NeoArc
@Neo Arc
@Neon Arc
Member of the 1AT
It would be ok's for PvP with 4 more jumps in cj and hurdle, one more taunt duration/recharge on taunt, dropped fighting pool for conceilment (stealth, GI and phase), and added permafrost, laser beam eyes and, for duels, conserve power. Anyway I'd always go /nrg for a pvp toon, and /stone as a far second choice and only for team pvp
ss is by far the best team tanker.
You'd ALWAYS pick EM, even for Sirens-based PvP Dark? Seems a bit odd to me. EM and Stone only get their decent-damage attacks after level 30 so they'd be trying to score kills with just Bonesmasher or the Mallets.
Perma-Rage also gives a large +ToHit buff that EM and Stone don't get, so Taunts are more likely to land.
Anyway, you mentioned that you'd always go /nrg for a "PvP toon" - but we're not looking at building a min-maxxed PvP toon, but a Hybrid that can perform adequately in most forms of PvP.
For instance, on the speed issue: unless you're trying to completely min-max a toon specifically for PvP, you don't need maxxed-out unsuppressed movement, merely GOOD unsuppressed movement and maxxed-out suppressable movement. I've always found two-slotted Hurdle + CJ + Sprint more than ample for unsuppressed movement, and SJ and SS are capped with just the base slot + hurdle/sprint. Likewise for Phase: with Hibern00b you won't NEED Phase unless you're specifically building for "untouchability" in certain arena duels.
That's the whole point of a Hybrid. I'd guess that if you're coming from the POV of an arena-build Min-Max'er; you will automatically pick holes in any build you see because you can visualise certain scenarios where that toon would be at a disadvantage (like SJ'ing toons versus /Dev, /Traps or the Mace Patron webnades). But 'Hybrids' are not intended to perform extremely well in all situations, merely adequately well for most.
It could mean someone goes into a PvP zone playing on a Fire/Empath instead of an Illusion/Empath, or a Ice/Fire instead of an Ice/EM. But I wouldn't deny a player the chance of participating in PvP and enjoying the experience simply because they didn't design their toon specifically for it.
Case in point: I have a Sonic/Elec Defender that has the Medicine Pool and Sonic Cage properly slotted, with Clarity and the Resistance buffs slotted up for range, and good (Leaping) movement, but doesn't have the Speed Pool. Would that toon not still be a benefit to a zonal team that didn't have Perception or Resistance buffs, despite not having Superspeed, (completely) Perma-Cage or the /Sonic secondary set?
Any build would do for sirens, as it's a pvp where builds still don't really shine. Ofc for sirens only I wouldn't go em, but I was thinking about global pvp, not just an specific zone. Anyway I see your point, and I partially agree on the fact my points were aimed for min maxed pvp toons, but I think we start from different assumptions. Your point is that a hybrid build can do fine in pvp and in pvp, whilst my point is that a hybrid build means it's quite improvable for pve and for pvp. Both assuptions, imo, are correct, and you can have a jack of all trades, but that means it's ace of none
Even full pvp builds can do bad in pvp DB.
[ QUOTE ]
Primaries, if you don't want Energy: Stone has high damage as well as stupid endurance... Battle Axe has high damage too, similar to that of Broadsword. Superstrength is okay from experience, although the lack of a serious mez is a downfall.
[/ QUOTE ]
eh? ss lacking a serious mez? tell that to all the squishies hit with KOBlow
The amount of peeps over the years that have said after an arena fight:"damn that mez gets annoying.."
The other beauty about super strenth is Hurl. A -fly with a great range is awesome in team pvp.
Also, heavily underated is Hand-clap. Jumping into a group of 3 enemy squishies and letting one of these rip, can become a royal pain in the backside.
[ QUOTE ]
Even full pvp builds can do bad in pvp DB.
[/ QUOTE ]
Its all about teh mace of doom
thePhilosopher Martial Arts/Regen/Fire Scrapper
theRegulator Empathy/Energy/Soul Defender
Total Inertia Ice Blast/Kinetics/Psy Corruptor
Total Inferno Ice Blast/Thermal/Leviathan Corruptor
What is a good TANKER Set for PVP? EXCLUDING ENERGY MELEE! Primary Ice. (Must be good in PVE :P)
I have a Broasword Scrapper and i know that one of the tanker melees is a exact copy of it so thats a no no