MadScientist

My Issues post above got moved to the Bugs+Issues Draft, which has now been replaced with a more formalized draft for Ex Libris. Here.

Pease direct anything still related to the "by MadScientist" part of this thread to that post instead. Thanks.

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To Ex Libris, Positron, and the rest of the City Dev Team,

We, the base-building community, thank you for taking an interest in our thoughts on bases. We have compiled this list of base-related bugs, suggestions and general needs for improvement.

This is only a summary, where there are complicated discussions or multiple ideas of how to solve a problem you will find links to other threads in the forum. When you decide to address those larger issues, an official "call for feedback" thread would be very useful. (Like the thread for thoughts on Defiance.) For example, if you choose to add new rooms, there have been dozens of suggestions for which sizes and types are most desired, an exercise similar to this Suggestion Collection would be useful, especialy with more focus to it.

Would it be possible to have more Developer presence in this forum? We could provide better feedback if we knew your design goals. And sometimes a short explanation from a Dev can clear up debates quickly.

Thank you again.
Signed, the posters in the Base forum.

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Bugs.
This list contains things that are broken. Either not functioning at all, or not functioning properly.

Base Usage bugs<ul type="square">[*]Robosurgery doesn't attach.[*]Upkeep Overpayment - if you pay too early, your next bill for rent will be due 2 weeks earlier than it should[*]Players using the "Leaders Teammates" base entry permission (so not SG or Coalition members) are immediately kicked out of bases after they zone in. This seriously hurts the Silver Mantis SF. Details here.[*]Game Client can shutdown while you are zoning to your base with the message ""You have been forcibly disconnected from the server. MapShuttingDown" Details here.[*]Grandville beacon artwork shows "destroyed" when in place, but not when moving the beacon.[*]Missing FX on many items (mostly defensive items - Stealth Supressor, Force Field Generator, etc.)[*]Empowerment stations list 15 minute durations, they were changed to 1 hour in the 8.16.06 patch but the text was not updated.[*]What's the status on the Cathedral of Pain and Items of Power? What exactly was broken about it? (Players have some likely causes, but no Dev has ever spoken on it.) Maybe knowing where the problems are, the community can suggest COP/IOP designs without those troublesome parts of the system.[/list]
Base Building bugs<ul type="square">[*]Blocking 1 doorway placement completely prevents room creation/movement - the logic of this should only prevent the room if no doorways can be made at all.[*]Changing room style can automatically overwrite other room styles (not reliably reproducable, though)[*]Inability to edit while people use Storage, because storage keeps repainting the base and resetting your edit[*]While editing, the total prestige available sometimes does not take into account the last few edits, leaving you with less prestige than you really have (even a negative total). This can take a long time to correct itself.[*]Incorrect/missing SG logos on items. Bomb, Globe, Lightning 2 and the letter X show up as the Biohazard logo. The number zero shows up as the Globe. Club, Diamond 1, Hourglass, Ornate 2, and Shield 1 are not visible at all. Visual guide here.[*]Personal Invention Salvage Vault sometimes doesn't get Energy/Control[*]Teleporter Beacons don't always interract right with Energy/Control[/list]
Base Raid bugs<ul type="square">[*]"Field" items not working during raids[*]Raids do not end when all attackers are out of the defender base after the half-way point (Back when this did work properly, corpses apparently could prevent a defender from winning. That may still have to be addressed.)[/list]
Supergroup bugs<ul type="square">[*]There is no confirmation prompt when you hit Kick on the right-click menu (unlike using the Remove button on the SG Roster Window)[/list]
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Flaws.
This list holds design flaws. Things that don't work as well as they could. Things that could be improved to better serve their intended use, or their expected use.

Base Usage flaws<ul type="square">[*]Generator Energy Curtain doesn't work with Turbine or Fusion Generators.[*]Inf-&gt;Pres trade-in at the Register is a huge ripoff. A level 50 turning on SG Mode gives up about 1 million Inf for 10k Pres, the register gives 2k for each million. This function did not change back when all other Prestige awards got increased 25%, so it seems it should be at least 2500, but that may not solve the problem.[*]Unable to control the direction you face on zone-in[*]Storage needs to be sortable, or simply default sorted by item instead of by time (such as using the same sort order as an NPC store)[*]Storage permissions don't match how most groups want to use them. Some enhancers should be more secure than others, and so on. (Permission by table would be ideal, a whole tier of more-secure tables would probably give enough flexibility to be useful.) In general, the all-or-nothing nature of the permission, combined with the need to educate new SG members makes it difficult to trust people with any storage permission at all. More storage discussion can be found here.[*]Storage log can be spammed to remove history - should something be guaranteed to exist for a length of time before being pushed off the list?[*]Storage doesn't always remember who placed an item, and definitely forgets it all if you move the storage to a new room.[*]Lack of a way to pool Invention Salvage and Recipe resources among a SG. Thouse should have SG Storage items.[*]Combat Logs is too weak for its huge prerequisite[*]Mission Computer needs more use (see wishlist)[*]Whatever happened to seeing Storage from a Worktable/Empowerment? (If that idea was dropped, just tell us and we'll stop asking.)[*]Most Empowerment buffs are considered insanely weak, and most are rather dull since you can get better effects from Inspirations. Tangent thread on Empowerment, since there's a lot to focus on.[*]Little use for "special" salvage (Alien Tech, Weapon of Mu, etc)[*]Lack of base salvage rarity labels.[*]Lack of concrete information about Salvage drop rates - we have been given similar information for Invention Salvage, Recipes and Enhancers.[*]Base salvage isn't worth selling to stores. Components DEFINITELY not worth it. (Perhaps when we have concrete drop data it will show that 100 Inf for commons is balanced compared to Invention drop rates.)[*]Are we ever getting the Tesla Cage, Elite Sapper, Advanced Holo-display? (like the Fusion Generator, how about a new requirement for the AHD if its requirement doesn't exist?)[*]Inability to use the Base features when teamed in the RWZ[/list]
Base Building flaws<ul type="square">[*]Some higher-end functions were balanced for a 75 player SG, but most groups are only 75 CHARACTERS, not players, so those are very hard to reach. For example, largest plots, the high-end SG Badges, the idea that you have to sign up for raids because not everyone can fit on the team. (This is a flaw in recognizing how players utilize SG Rosters and Alts. Perhaps the solution is not to change costs, but to fix the rosters?)[*]In general, the editor has a lot of room for improvement. Expanded discussion is found here.[*]Low percentage of SG members are given edit permission. Like storage permissions, this seems to be a problem because of the all-or-nothing setup. How can base editing be "tiered" to allow different amounts of access to different ranks?[*]Removing a placed Personal Item deletes it totally. This is a big contributing factor in the previous problem of leaders not sharing edit permission.[*]Having to use 2 different editors to place a personal item is clumsy. Can crafted items go into a SG inventory accessible from the normal editor?[*]Why can anyone edit the base by placing a personal item despite security limitations?[*]Moving the entrance room with no other rooms uses a very roundabout solution.[*]Plot Upgrade Costs are misleading, since the displayed cost does not account for selling back the current plot. (Some people don't even know you get refunded the old plot cost.)[*]Apply room style to base is too destructive. You can't copy 1 room without overwriting everything. Why not a Copy+Paste Style instead? (you could still apply that to the base, just with a bit more running around.)[*]Removable floor/ceiling trim[*]Lack of feedback on collisions, especially when unable to place a door (including when moving a room)[*]"Hollow" items that block pathing (for example, Spike Rings and Arcane Arches can block doorways even though you can walk right thru them.)[*]Roundabout means of getting multiple SG logos onto items. Possible solutions: A color selector for item, similar to lighting/ting. Make these items craftable, selecting colors at creating in an interface similar to a costume editor.[*]Lack of info prior to crafting an item (Size, Prestige/Energy/Control costs, many items lack pictures)[*]Veterans base items are poorly implemented. (Perhaps if they were crafted, unlocking recipes like the Invention badges do.)[*]Not enough Worktable spots on a plot for all 6 tables plus Invention. Why limit Wortables at all, when Teleporters and Defenses are never limited?[*]Inequalities between Tech/Arcane item sizes. (Raid porter, 2nd and 3rd control items.)[*]Stacking items in the editor is extremely difficult. This guide illustrates the difficulties players need to overcome.[*]Inability to move rooms when items are stacked. (any more details on this? does it only take 2 items in the room to block the move, or do you need a filled room to trip this bug?)[*]Many flat-top items do not allow things to be placed on top of them. eg, bookcases, counters, floor tiles[*]Large steps exist in the growth of bases, notably when growing out of the Startup items, and when trying to upgrade a Mainframe to a Supercomputer. Tangent thread here discusses some options.[*]Many architects feel unjustly constrained by Raid considerations if they're not using the base for raiding. Can the system be more flexible? Or if there are general limitations, raiding or not, could they be better expressed in terms that don't trigger phrases like "but I'm not raiding"[/list]
Base Raid flaws<ul type="square">[*]Where's the Scheduled Raid System? (and would enough people care? no, seriously, the amount of people who don't want - even fear - scheduled raids even while wanting IOPs was pretty amazing. Why is the SRS often seen more as a cost to be paid/avoided than as "content"? Should the premise be rethought? Maybe the whole SRS/IOP interaction has to be re-thought?)[*]Griefing on Zoning in to an attackers base. (Yes, all's fair in PVP, this is not an exploit, but so many people are unhappy with it that it needs to be examined.)[*]Long zoning times are no fun, it's just time you're not raiding. Why not instance both maps together and use "elevator" type code to move to the PVP area faster?[*]Defending players are unable to join a raid that's started, even if there's room.[*]Why even require players to find a "join" button to sign up? Just add them to the raid team if there's room.[*]Unable to concede a raid to end it early (Maybe not a good idea for Items of Power Raids, but pickup raids should allow it.)[*]People not in the raid are immediately kicked out of the defending base with no explanation (so often they keep trying to enter) - the base menu should simply tell them there's a raid in progress and deny access.[*]Why is the defending base off limit in the first place? Could you instance a raid version of it to leave the non-raiding people a base to use? The attacking SG has no such inconvenience.[*]Attacking teams can have SG and coalition member "buff bots" sitting in their base providing raid help, Defenders can not. This is an imbalance.[*]What's with the function of the Relay? its effect and worktable description don't match.[*]Batteries are useless on a hidden plot because of the need for Control. What was the design goal for those?[*]The Pylon setup means the ideal defense is to have as few rooms as possible, which narrows strategy options. What's the design goal? Can this be improved to better meet that goal?[*]Mez Protection IOP was insanely overpowered, especially in PVP. This should be examined before it returns to play.[/list]
Supergroup flaws<ul type="square">[*]Many SG issues are related to bases, and often discussed in this forum. eg, security affects storage; rosters affect prestige; SG-focused functions make sense on items in the SG's base. There's a tangent thread for those, and many of the following points.[*]Most people commit many alts to a SG. The SG Roster is not currently designed to facilitate that behavior. Can the 75 Roster Limit count by global instead of by character?[*]Chest icons that aren't available as SG Logos[*]Complete loss of Prestige history and Join On date when you leave a roster (at the very least, if you don't join another group in-between it should remember them)[*]Lack of security with regards to Alts - should we know someone's global, or be able to globally kick a security risk?[*]It's hard to set security limits if you can't demote offline/hidden members. Promoting offline members would be useful, too.[*]Lack of logging - any action dangerous enough to necessitate a Security permission should be trackable when leaders are offline. Most such actions generate system messages to a player involved, or to the whole SG, so should be easily recordable. (eg, Join, Quit, Kick, Promote/Demote, Base Edit. Changes to Permissions are perhaps the big case that doesn't generate a system message but should be logged.)[*]Promoting up to the same level as you should have a confirmation prompt since you can't undo that action (and since it can happen due to lag or an accidental keypress on the right-click menu)[*]SG Register should display and filter on Hero/Villain[*]SG Costume Color Settings should be saved separately for each costume, since changing costumes often needs a SG Mode adjustment.[*]There is no tangible benefit to supergroups working as a group. Such as bonuses teaming with your SG.[*]The auto-promotion system is seen as a bit to arbitrary. A lowest rank can too easily gain sole control of a whole group. Can the system prioritize higher ranks?[/list]
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Wishes.
These are the most popular game additions to improve bases and supergroups. This is only a summary, when it comes to things like new base decorations the list would be much too long to post here, links to other threads will be provided.

Base Usage wishlist<ul type="square">[*]There's a huge list of art that exist in-game, and could be easily used for Base Items. See excellent thread here.[*]and countless wishlists of new decorative items. There's a whole thread on this. The most often requested categories of items are: doors/windows/walls, more room styles (outdoor/water/lava), NPCs, architecture for 2-level rooms, and look-a-likes of functional items.[*]Bring existing game functions inside the base (as was done with Issue 9's items) - Tailor, Auction House, Arena, Trainer, Info Kiosk, Mission Difficult Setter, NPC Store (to sell Enhancers), Mission Doors[*]SG-missions (on mission computer?) Tangent thread started here.[*]Return-to-mission Teleporter was mentioned by the Devs long ago, whatever happened to that idea?[*]New teleporters, either to increase beacons per room, or to simply put more destinations in one click spot. Focus thread here.[*]More personal storage - that would prevent people from trying to retask group storage for personal means[*]Storage for Inf (though would it be degenerate since the character limit on Inf is so insanely high?)[*]Text labels on Storage item interface since people have many systems for how to file their group's items (eg, "Magic Enhancers only in here")[*]Defend against a raid by NPCs A way to use your defensive designs without engaging in PVP.[*]Ability to zone into your Coalition bases directly from the Base Exit Portal, to make it easy to tour, or to utilize coalition items. (Should be easy to code since the Portal can generate a zoning menu if there are multiple instances to zone to. Just get the other bases onto that menu.)[/list]
Base Building wishlist<ul type="square">[*]Clean up and resort item menus see also: the Base Editor tangent thread.[*]Some way to rapidly place favorite items. Such as making a Favorites listing in the base editor. Or a Most Recently Used list. Or a "place another copy" button on the item's info window.[*]Ability to change the Base Exit Portal's look.[*]Ability to change the Entrance Room's size.[*]More variety of room shapes and sizes, especially Decorative rooms.[*]Transition effects in doorways, instead of sharpy dividing the room styles[*]Ability to put 2 doorways side-by-side.[*]Placement of items (including Trim) in doorway squares[/list]
Base Raid wishlist<ul type="square">[*]Can the Raid Schedule window be used to plan pickup raids more than 5 minutes in advance? (eg, current setup a group can plan a friendly raid and put it on the SG MOTD, but still only have 5 minutes to log in and actually sign up when the invite is sent. Why not make the raid official right away and utilize the schedule window for a longer sign-up time?)[*]Option for shorter duration pickup raids?[*]Option for lower level pickup raids? (level 40? 30?)[*]Variable size limits on raid teams[*]Groups with no IOP are easier to defend, there is 1 less victory condition because there is no IOP shield to take down. Should defenders need a Raid Target, so all raids have the same set of rules? (ie: place a Flag to be captured.)[/list]
Supergroup wishlist<ul type="square">[*]Passive recruiting using the SG Register. Anyone looking for a SG should be able to use the Register to find one, and to send that SG a request for membership. This would cut down on the need to run around broadcasting, recruits would come to you.[*]More communication - Messageboard, mass email[*]Some way to email a Group, not a Player. eg, "dear coalition, whoever is in charge..."[*]A way to chat to a single coalition (disabling Chat To every other coalition is really clunky.)[*]SG Info on a character Info screen. (info tab with the logo in SG Colors, SG Motto, player's Rank, "member since...")[*]SG Costumes. Most SGs have a costume, some way to better communicate those costume settings in the costume editor would be useful.[*]NPCs around town should "namedrop" the SG, especially when multiple members of a SG are running around on one team. (dialog like "I saw the Freedom Phallanx battling the Freakshow!")[*]A way to contact a PLAYER who's in the group, even if that CHARACTER doesn't log in. (Knowing globals on the roster would fix this. As would allowing a player to read all their character's email in 1 place without having to log everyone in.) The biggest use of this would be "you haven't logged in for a while..."[*]IO Memorization for a SG. (So one person in the SG doesn't have to do all the efficient crafting and pass it around thru storage.)[*]Info Kiosk style stat tracking for SG members. eg, rank most kills by SG members, prestige gain over the past week, etc.[*]A way to get both Prestige AND Inf past level 35 (frequently toggling SG Mode on and off is a clumsy solution). A Prestige Slider is often mentioned; adding a single 50/50 SG Mode setting would be better than the current extremes of 100/0 vs 0/100; or simply cut back the Inf tax to less than 100%.[/list]
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[ QUOTE ]
Review editor UI make more like Wentworths

[/ QUOTE ]
You mean as far as categories in one list and details in another? That'd be interesting.

An idea often mentioned in terms of Wents, but I believe originally a base request...
Let us create a Favorites list. Or a Most Recently Used list.

[ QUOTE ]
One of the things that frustrates me with base raids is the low limit on player slots and the inability for coalitionmates to participate.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think it's quite the same concern. Raids are a pain to set up and don't happen too often. These Mayhems would be simple to start, and could be run frequently. A player could simply catch the next one, or start one themselves a few minutes later.
On the flip side, though, making them content *requiring* multiple teams is very discouraging for smaller groups. I have enough trouble getting a Respec team together some time, I'd hate to be unable to run this Mayhem because not enough people are around.

As for coalition participation - I want to stress something I said in my post with SG Mission suggestions... SG Missions should not REQUIRE a SG or coalition. They should be just like any other mission, using any pickup team, but REWARD you if you do have multiple members from the SG.

[ QUOTE ]
There was another motive to the control aux suggestions (basic attaching to the combo units, expert attaching to basic control mains), beyond the additional control produced: most aux items do not get used, except for decoration purposes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like things that solve 2 problems at once.

[ QUOTE ]
Anything that can be done by 8 or fewer people should be available as a regular mission or Task Force, I think. I think the SG missions should be geared towards multiple teams, with all the teams coming together for an epic battle at the end.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't that the very tech they've been unable to fix for the Cathedral?
Also, if it was doable, would they have used it for instanced Hammi Raids instead of the 50 person zone limit?
It's certainly interesting, but would it be do-able? (THIS is the type of thing that would really benefit from a regular Dev presence in this forum to answer.... but I digress...)


Course, they could always keep things simple at first, then amp them up a level if they're popular. Kind of like how the simple bank robbery missions were in Villains to start and then got replaced with the much more complex Mayhems.

[ QUOTE ]
Raiding an NPC base.

[/ QUOTE ]

so instead of having to set up your base for a raid (which could be very easy to manipulate raider AI) you could have to attack a base using the Pylon/Anchor strategies. The defenders are not mobs of minions, but instead a small set of Elite Bosses (or whatever is equivalent to one PVP match). Seems interesting as a way to make a SG Rumble.

Would there be AI problems? eg, would something like Taunt be grossly overpowered in such a setup because a Tank and anyone else to plant Pylons may make this raid trivial. Would the defending force be smart enough to react to a fight 2 rooms away, as if they had teammates alerting them over chat? I wonder just how you could simulate a PVP setup with AI, because normal NPC Mobs sure don't utilize player-quality tactics.

[ QUOTE ][*]Supergroup missions based upon Villain/Hero Group: Function is to allow groups who have a particular focus the ability to do an Arc of missions against only a specific type.

[/ QUOTE ]

What about... different SG Missions build you up towards related SG Mayhems.

For example, if you help complete a COT SG Mission (whether its from your mission computer or you jump in on someone else's team) in SG Mode then your SG gets 1 credit towards a COT SG Rumble. If you help complete a Nemesis SG Mission, your SG gets 1 credit towards a Nemesis SG Rumble. And so on.

Maybe it takes 25 credits to unlock the ability to run the Rumble once. at an average of 5 people on a team doing this as a SG that's 5 mission, like Mayhems. (Sure it's more for a soloist, but what isn't?)

Then whatever the special rewards are, they can be keyed to beating the Rumble mission itself. I do like the idea of the reward being something "extra" and not just taking large Prestige gains onto the mayhem-like mission if you succeed - THAT would be skewed too much to non-soloists.

I appologize for forgetting who proposed this one in that base cost thread...

Oversight Center 2. 4x4, holds an Energy Main, Control Main and 2 Control Aux. For something like 50k.

That smooths the upgrade from a Startup Generator by saving a lot of cash on buying the 2 Control and Energy rooms, while still keeping the dev's "feeling" of needing to remove the cumbersome oversight room.

From Snow_Globe in the other thread... (pardon me for not nesting it in a quote, cause it's a lot of text)

Functional base items:
- Increase the Mainframe / Magic Axis to 100 control (+50 control difference) for the same price.

- Corner Terminal / Augury Table increased to 15 control (+3 control difference), change price to 35,000, or leave the price alone.

- Increase the power output of the combo unit to 250-300, keep the price the same, that way a clear upgrade path becomes available (combo unit, purchase control main, buy a few items, replace combo unit/oversight room with energy main + control aux).

- Allow the Mainframe / Magic Axis to attach the Advanced Terminal / Seer Desk or Advanced Corner Terminal / Viewing Portal to allow more flexability to reach the supercomputer.

Rooms:
- 1x1 to 1x8, 2x2 to 2x8, 3x3 to 3x8, 4x4 to 4x8, 5x5 to 5x8, 6x6 to 6x8, 7x7, 7x8, 8x8 rooms with decorative room pricing. *note: Too bad, so sad about the base price adjustments. It should be possible to run a script on the base server to automatically refund the difference in price. The 150k decorative rooms have to be changed. Even if the developers said to everyone you have 3 months to change the rooms to the new ones and after that if you haven't changed to the lower cost rooms, if you ever sell back the room you will be getting the new cost back, you have been warned.

- Make a 1x2 Control room. Charge 50,000 prestige. Allow Mainframe, and one of the Terminal / Clerk Desk, Corner Terminal / Augury Table (bumped to 15 control), Monitor Bank / Scrying Paintings, or Holodisplay / Mystic Advisor. This will give an exta 10 to 25 control over the mainframe's new ability.

- Make a 1x2 Power room. Charge 50,000 prestige. Allow only the Basic Generator in it.

- A 1x2 Medical Room 50k, allow 1 medical main, 1 medical aux.

posted by InfamousBrad in the other thread,[ QUOTE ]
a generator somewhere in size between the Combo Power and Control Unit and the Basic Generator (375k prestige for just a little bit more power is a big jump)

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, it's a LOT more power for 375k. 125 to 1,000. So there's plenty of room to play with a number in between, 300 or 350 may be a good target.

Something to keep an eye on with these gaps is how much a SG really notices them. If a SG is getting 150k per week, is a 4-week or so hurdle off of Startup going to even matter to them 2 months from now? Would it be worth adding a filler item groups will only use briefly if it takes coding time away from adding (just to pick an example) an Auction House Terminal that groups will use forever?

Where I'm going with this is not beating down the gap-filler item. I'm suggesting the item should have a broader use. If that 350 Power Generator was a Startup Item, it then has a follow-up use for later. A SG could have Basic Generator AND the 350 Generator both on the plot at the same time, giving them a step-up between the Basic and Turbine Generators. 2 problems solved with 1 item.
Also convenient if you make that 350 Generator a Startup Item is that you don't need to buy the 150k room for it, you can keep the Oversight Center and just add a Control Room.

[ QUOTE ]
750k to convert from a Mainframe and 6 Databases to a Supercomputer.

[/ QUOTE ]
"But isn't there a room that holds more than 6 Databases?"
Yes, but when that room costs 750k, you still have a 750k step in your Control progression, and you may as well just go to the Supercomputer.

Perhaps, then, the solution to this step-up is a room with more than 6 Auxes, but costing less than 750k. Like a 350k room that holds 8 Auxes.

An attempt to consolidate discussion of the big steps encountered when growing a base. What are the problems? What are possible ways to fill gaps in growth?



There seems to be 2 major gaps:
625k to convert from a Startup Combo Unit and Oversight Center to the Mainframe, Basic Generator and their 2 normal rooms.
750k to convert from a Mainframe and 6 Databases to a Supercomputer.

Are there other gaps?

[ QUOTE ][*]The Mission Computer should always offer one mission that lacks the multiple click glowies, to give small SGs something to do. Lower, or even no, Prestige bonus is fine.

[/ QUOTE ]
As I asked the previous poster: Then why would they do this instead of a Newspaper mission?
Another thing to consider: a running Mission Computer and Raid Porter with nothing else on the plot would cost 925k. Would many small SGs be doing these missions? (and again, that's not elitist, that's simply gearing content towards teams.) It's almost like making sure there's a way for one person to beat the Cathedral of Pain withing realizing that 1 person can't buy all 6 anchors and a Vault.

[ QUOTE ]
... Destruction of the objectives fails the mission. ...

[/ QUOTE ]
The trouble is that you kind of have to design your own failure condition. You need to provide the object the people are attacking. It can be a bit tough to make that interesting, or even challenging. Not saying it's impossible, but given the number of issues with NPC raids it may be a bit ambitious to tackle those at the same time as SG Missions.
This is kind of the COP/IOP problem - we can't have bonus powers while in SG Mode because IOPs are tied to a second, more complex system that doesn't work. There's a lot of benefit to doing the 2 ideas separately.

[ QUOTE ]
You still have to account for those small supergroups which primarily consists or two or three RL friends with a huge amount of alts.

[/ QUOTE ]
There's nothing that would require a SG team. I made a point of that in my post. You could easily do this with 1 SG member and a pickup team.

[ QUOTE ]
SG missions should be just like any other mission in that regard that you do not need a set amount of people to do them.

[/ QUOTE ]
A lot of the game is designed to require multiple players. Task Forces, Giant Monsters, Rikti Ship Raids, AVs. Why would it be a problem to gear superGROUP activities to teams of multiple people?

Really, I think it's the difference between "newspaper-like missions from a new source" and "supergroup missions on the mission computer".
We already have an endless source of missions that any amount of people can do. Isn't the point here to add something new and different?
Just don't make the system punish a 1-player SG if they can't do these. eg, don't go having these missions unlock some uber base item that would be denied to the 1-player SG. (though they have accolades based on multiplayer content like TFs, so maybe I'm wrong there...? perhaps the missions could unlock something if that unlocking is not tied to a head count of how many SG members are on the mission. So the 1-player can unlock stuff for their group by teaming up with a whole other SG.)

[ QUOTE ]
Increase the cost of functional base items, make decorative items free and increase costs for rooms ....

[/ QUOTE ]

Allow me to point you to something I wrote about costs in the consolidated thread where we're trying to gather up ideas.

It's alive! ALIVE!!!! This MONSTER thread exists to consolidate our thoughts before bringing a list here for the Devs. Let's try to present this with some organization and unity, please. Thanks.

My personal take on this would be summed up as...

1) Simple and direct, like the Newspaper or Scanner provides, only on the Super Computer
2) Provide a reward for working as a SG, but not a requirement
3) Build up to a SG Version of a Mayhem/Safeguard


on making them unique...
- To make them group-themed, they should utilize mutliple-click glowies.
- Give each mission an Elite Boss to kill, to increase the challenge.
- Using outdoor maps would make them distinct from news missions.
- If these are outdoors, how about renaming the Raid Porter into a Mission Porter, or a Group Porter or something and giving it the added function of starting these missions?
Doesn't really have to be too complex, just team-focused.

The reward should be bonus Prestige if a certain amount of people from the same SG gain Prestige upon completion (so in SG Mode and within level range). Maybe 100 Prestige each if 3+ members of your SG are present, and 150 Prestige each if 5+ are present. So you can combine 2 coalition SGs and both get rewarded.
Some subtle observations on setting up the bonus this way: the bonus is independent of the relative difficulty of the mission, it's not "double the mission bonus" or something - so you can't exploit this in a PL-type sidekick setup. You also need to get a reward for the bonus to trigger, so you can't get 2 non-SK'd lowbies from the SG to sit at the door while you solo this and reap the bonus.
You could also limit the bonus by time, like PVP zone missions.

SG-Mayhem, SG-Safeguard?
Obviously the pipe-dream here would be the often-suggested raid on your base by NPCs. That's a bit tough to design, with things like base pathing and potential goals for raiding. How about something simpler for now?
How about a very challenging mission like that famous "get these glowies in 10 minuts"? Don't tell the team what it is until they take it, give them 15 minute to...
- Kill any 3 DE Giant Monsters on a map full of them
- Kill a COT AV and his 4 Elite Boss friends (a challenge like the Aeon fight in the States TF)
- Hit 50 glowies on an outdoor map
Something INSANELY fast-paced and designed for 8 people. In-your-face, get-in-and-get-out, wild fun that you might truely fail miserably and have fun failing!


oh yeah, you can easily add badges for doing some number of these, or doing specific tasks within them (Glowies, Hostages, etc)

An attempt to consolidate disussion about SG Missions.

What would you like to see for SG-themed Missions?

How does one balance a Teleporter with more beacons?

Clearly you can do it with costs: Energy, Control, Prestige, Crafting. You can also do it with the size - if you need the 3x3 room to hold a pair of 3-beacon porters and can't do it in the 2x2 room, there's a balance.

You can also balance by limiting which beacons it takes.

For example, I'd like to see...<ul type="square">[*]3- or 4- beacon porter that only takes the Hazard Zones. This could really cut down the amount of Porter Main objects needed to reach all 21 Hero Zones. Probably would have to be larger than 1x1 - able to go into a 2x2 room, but not able to have another porter in there with it - and smaller than 1.5 squared so you can put 2 in a 3x3 room.[*]1-beacon porter that only takes the City zones. This could help get a third beacon running on the Startup Combo Generator if the Energy and Control Costs are less than half that of the Basic Porter[/list]

An attempt to bring all suggestions for improving, adding and revising Teleporters into one thread.

you know what... if you don't mind, let me review my old post and start it off in a new thread. it will be a lot cleaner at this point.

OK, what I had saved in notepad from my last Issues post. (yes, some of it is out of date with I10. like the Fusion Generator.) I'll post this as-is, we can clean it up as needed.



Welcome to the new collected Bugs+Issues thread, updated for I9.
I've added a piece to the title, to draw attention to the number of things we're looking to get a Dev explanation for.

This is for things that are broken. This is not really for wishlist items. I refer you to<ul type="square">[*]The new version of Base Items We'd Like to See for your wishlist "add this to the base" posts.[*]Base editor requests for editor-related wishlists.[*]Supergroup related requests[/list]What's what? I draw the line as this: Would the new items/function speficially address an existing isssue? So, for example, more function on the Mission Computer addresses its uselessness. The lack of personal apartments is not a game issue, so that request is a wishlist item.

I'll include SG issues here where relevant, I'll do an update of my SG Issues thread later. In fact, I think I'll bring that thread to this board, since it's so closely related.


The Base Bugs, Issues and Questions list.
1. High Priority items.
2. General base usage.
3. Editor.
4. Base Items.
5. Salvage and Crafting.

Note that raiding issues are being moved into their own thread, look for that late today. (I'll update with a link when it's up.)


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Part 1 - High Priority. The top 3 (plus one), based on how often I see discussion of them.

0. Who's in charge here? - Is there a member of the Dev team responsible for bases? Can we please get some regular presence in this forum?

1. Robosurgury not attaching - Issue 8 broke the Rez Rings so they no longer accept Aux items.

2. Fusion Generator - The general feeling is that if this was fixable, it would have been fixed by now. Can the requirement be removed or changed, so we can use this item? (200 PVP-zone missions would be a reasonable requirement, on par with Thwart The Thorns, and about 50 hours of play.)

3. Cathedral of Pain - What's the ETA for this? What exactly went wrong the first time? There's been a lot said about this in this forum about the IOPs and Scheduled Raids, will the design be revised or will there simply be a mechanical fix just for the trial?


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Part 2 - General base issues

Upkeep overpayment - it's possible to rebill your upkeep every 2 weeks, essentially tripling what you have to pay. This is unfair because most people don't know how to use the system optimally. As a result, groups go thru a bit of fuss to avoid overpaying.

75 character roster limit - this is a base issue as well as a SG issue because much of the base system was designed around the assumption that SGs were up to 75 players. Given the SG interface and the nature of players usign Alts, it's almost impossible to manage 75 people in one SG. That means that a lot of base-related costs are not coming out balanced.

Inf -&gt; Prestige - The current exchange rate is 500:1. A level 50 (so someone with maximum Inf generation) "converts" at a rate around 100:1 when toggling in and out of SG Mode. Seems the Register is a bit too far off to make converting Inf useful. How about 200:1?

Lingering base kick bug on zone-in - Very occasionally, a player zoning in to the base will be disconnected from the game with the "servers are shutting down" message. (I've personally seen this post-I9. Others have reported it on both Live and Test.) Generally, though, base kicking seems resolved, thank you very much!


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Part 3 - Base Editor Issues

People don't get perimssion to edit their bases - The vast majority of COH players can not utilize the base editor. They either are in a small SG with few resources to edit with, or a large SG that witholds edit permission to a few members. This is a huge contributor to bases being unpopular. What can be done to get more people editing? There seems to be 2 main reasons people deny base edit capability: 1) bases being rendered unusable, and 2) items being deleted permanently.
The solution to the first problem could be to give out base edit permission that only allowed touching decorative items and room colors/patterns. Then the base won't turn off by someone deleting the mainframe. The teleporters won't get disabled by someone moving all the beacons to another room. Full access to base design (funcitonal items, add/remove rooms) can be a separate permission. Base Design vs Base Contruction.
(I'll talk about the 2nd issue in the crafted items section.)

Door problems - The base editor is rather dumb when it comes to finding a location for a door, preventing a lot of room placements without first clearing the entire wall of adjacent rooms. The editor is not very clear on WHAT is blocking a door, so you pretty much have to delete and rebuild everything. When moving rooms, the editor forces ALL adjoining walls to have a valid doorway (as opposed to when placing, which requires only 1 door), which can cause even bigger rebuild issues.

Moving the entrance - If the entrance is the only room on the plot, you can not move it normally. The editor doesn't find a room to attach it to in the new position. You can move the plot around it, but that's not very intuitive. Improve the Move Room AI. (Though as a quick solution, greying out the Move Room button would at least suggest to people to look for a solution elsewhere instead of trying and failing to move the room.)

Apply Room Style to Base - If I had a dollar for every time I applied the wrong room's style and wished for an undo button... How many bases use the same one style anyways? Possible solution: Copy+Paste Styles instead. Another possible solution: When placing a new room, copy the style of the room you're standing in, thus reducing the amount of times you have to update a style.

Removing floor/ceiling trim - Is it just buggy, or is there a reason it's not possible? Why not create an invisible 1-pixel wide trim that we can select?

Hidden Hitboxes - It's tough to place items in a room if you can't see existing hitboxes unless you run over them. It's also tough to judge what is a valid location in front of a doorway. When a doorway can't be placed because of a blocking item, that item should get highlighted.

Stacking items - Why can't we stack on top of bookcases? They're flat. Should we be able to stack on top of the 2-level Counters? (and why are there 2 sets of items named Counters on 2 tabs?) The lower shelf of the counter may not be stackable because it's inside the item's hitbox - is that a necessary setup or can it be improved? Floor Tile of all types (Linoleum, E-Z Flooring, SG logo stuff) can't take stacking at all, that seems kind of silly especially for the larger tile pieces that can't work around other stuff.

Unusual hitboxes - Some items have hitboxes that make little sense, especially in connection with doorways. The Arcane Platforms can block a door, even though the door level can be raised above the platform height. The AES has a huge hitbox, preventing doors from existing on opposite sides of its room, yet you can walk right thru it. The ceiling-mounted Spike Ring has a similar issue with being a large block of mostly empty space.

Using storage repaints the base - By itself that's annoying, but if you're in the designer and someone uses storage it "resets" what you're doing, dropping any item you were dragging. Basically it's impossible to edit while someone's in the base with you.

Prestige Lag - The total prestige you have sometimes doesn't update when you sell items, or it can go negative. It corrects itself after a while, but causes large delays in editing and occasional panic.


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Part 4 - Base Item Issues

Storage issues
- Storage needs to be sorted. Even if it's just one default sort like the stores use and not customizable, it would be an improvement.
- Storage permissions do not match how the majority of players want to use storage. People want to make some Enhancements more secure than other Enhancements, and so on for each type. Ideally, permissions for each storage bin itself would be useful. Short of that, a 2nd tier of access permissions (ie: a set of Secure storage objects) would cover most security permutations. People often suggest permissions by type, but setting all enhancers more secure than all inspirations still doesn't solve the issue of wanting some enhancers more secure than others. In general, we have many ranks of the SG, why is storge security simply all-or-nothing? Can't we give permission to take some stuff but not other stuff?
- Why can't we store Invention Salvage? This was called Salvage, put in the Salvage Inventory, and people expected it to be treated like the rest of the salvage. What's the problem here?
- Can we have Recipe storage? People would like to pool ther recipes to share with their SGs.
- Lack of more personal storage. eg, use the Salvage Vault for any type of inventory. I mention this as a base issue because the lack of this function makes people try to retask the shared SG Storage as personal storage. That then leads to problems such as loss of items (people not comprehending that it's shared storage space), or people favoring the SG-of-1 to get personal enhancement storage, thus having fewer large bases in play.

Grandville beacon artwork - Both the tech and arcane version use the "wrecked" artwork.

Generator Energy Curtain doesn't attach to 2nd tier generator - bug, or intended design?

Combat Logs pretty wimpy - in light of stashing the same insps into storage, it doesn't seem worth the effort to unlock this item, or to bother paying Prestige/Energy/Control for it. It needs a boost. Maybe expand its inventory?

Missing SG Logos on some items - A visual summary is here.
- Bomb, Globe, Lightning 2 and the letter X show up as the Biohazard logo.
- The number zero shows up as the Globe
- Club, Diamond 1, Hourglass, Ornate 2, and Shield 1 are not visible at all.

Roundabout SG Logo changes - It's possible to place a banner in any color with any logo, but you need to edit your SG Settings to do that. Seems a bit of a fuss, why can't this be done directly? One suggestion: make these as crafted items, using a costume designer style interface.

Field items broken - Pain Field, Slow Field, etc, all are not functioning since Issue 8.

Mission Computer doesn't offer missions - Can this be any more useful? At the very least, would a SG version of Newspaper/Scanner missions be easy to code? (See the Base Item wishlist for more ideas.)

Tech vs Arcane inequalities
- The Supercomputer fits in a 2x2 room, Orbits of Control does not.
- The AES fits in a 4-wide space, Orrey needs 5 and so needs a room costing much more than the tech version.
- Arcane Raid Teleporter fits into a 2x2 room, Tech Raid Teleporter does not.

What should the Relay do? - The worktable says it reduces control cost, the item itself says +Recharge.

Empowerment Stations still very unpopular - I wonder if the Devs have any data they can share with us about station usage. We have the stations in the base and I can't remember the last time I saw a SG member buff up. Many buffs are too weak to be noticed, and the top level buffs are way too expensive. Perhaps it would help if there was Empowerment Salvage, the way Inventions are going to have their own salvage separate from Base Salvage.

Empowerment helper text says 15 minutes - All powers are an hour, but the long-text descriptions are still off. Short-text says 1 hour.

Too Much Alien Tech - Really, is there anything useful we can do with this stuff? Why not have 1 Special Salvage (from AVs, Taskforces or PVP mission) translate to one Empowerment buff?

Too few workbench spots - With the Invention workbench, a base can't have all 6 other benches at the same time. Why even limit workshop items by plot? Teleport and Medical have no per-plot limits.

Return-to-mission Teleporter Beacon - Is this still in the works?


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Part 5 - Crafted items and salvage

Permanent Item Loss. - Items should go back into Inventory when removed from the base. This would help groups be more willing to give out base edit permission because no one could grief the base. Considering most of the base system refunds full cost of items, having this small list of items be destroyed is a noticable exception. This could also remove the warning messages when deleting an item, or deleting a room with many crafted items.

Remove "personal" items, make crafted items accessible in the normal editor. - This would solve numerous problems.
- Personal item placement can't be controlled with a permission. It is a form of editing the base. Why can it not be controlled?
- Moving between two editors is annoying. Currently, you drop a personal item and then need to change editors to adjust its position. That's assuming you can even access the full editor after placing the item.
- A SG's crafted items should be accessible by the whole SG, not just by the crafter. This will give the people with base edit permission access to anything that they need to place. Making this inventory visible to the whole SG would solve the issue of "overcrafting", where multiple SG members craft an item not realizing they can't place it yet.

Veterans items spam your personal inventory. - Can these be claimed 1 by one? Perhaps have the Vet badge unlock the recipe on the worktables, like the costume parts do, instead of using award buttons.

Worktable secrecy - Can we see full item stats BEFORE using salvage to craft it?

Too Much Alien Tech - Really, is there anything useful we can do with this stuff? One AV Defeat, Taskforce, PVP Mission yielding 1 Empowerment Buff would seem balanced, and may encourage more use of the empowerment station.

Salvage rarity - We know base salvage does not all drop with equal rarity. There have been attempts to figure out the system. Can this be labeled in-game like Invention Salvage is? This impacts the sale price of the items at the auction house. Components should be color-coded White/Yellow/Orange to indicate their level, Basic/Advanced/Expert. (I'm willing to discuss this further if I knew the exact rarity system. Perhaps the Devs believe the system as coded is a flat rarity?)

What exactly is the drop chance for Salvage? - Positron revealed those numbers for Invention Salvage, can we have them for base salvage?

Salvage buyback price - Base salvage only sells for 100, Invention sells for 250, and base salvage is actually more rare! Components require at least 3 pieces, and should sell for 3 times the dropped salvage price.

5th and Axis recipes - These recipes are unusual in that they use rare salvage for non-Expert components. Seeing as these groups don't exist, I wonder if the recipes were never balanced for the salvage drops. To avoid wasting salvage, can these be deleted? Or made to match Council and Council Empire recipes?

View storage from worktable? - Whatever happened to the feature to use stored salvage from a table? Is that still in the works?

Salvage drop bugs
- Shivans seem to be using the generic drop table (like Rularuu use), that means they're not dropping the Shivan Ectoplasm and Bone Fragments used in the "Make this from Shivan salvage" recipes.
- Freakshow have a recipe listing Cybernetic Charger twice. Should they be dropping Vahzilok Notes (which are called Meat Doctors savlage in their description) to use in half of that recipe?
- Carnies seem to have no rare drops. That makes the Carnie Expert recipes a real bargain, but makes Carnies very poor sources of salvage.


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what happened to my large base bug post? did it get eaten by the forums?

(if it did, I think I have a copy on my desktop.)

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Please find it Ill add it and put in our DUCKS in ROW thread as a link.

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it's eaten. let me see about a new post.

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8. When you move a bin, that the items placed in the bin forget who placed those Items in the bin? It also flips the contents when you move the bin.

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Bins also forget ownership after a certain amount of transactions. Seems there's a short list and things drift off it. does it coincide with the length of the log? for that matter, is it a problem that the log has a finite life? I mean, sure, it can't be infinite, but perhaps it should be measured in time and not in actions.

I wonder if tracking the contributor is at all worthy outside the log. It loses all meaning as soon as a different person provides the same item. Do people really make use of this info?


as to flipping the contents, I think all bins simply need a sort order.