Local_Man

I would agree that a series of tests to measure each set's ability at certain tasks has some value. However, such tests must be designed, or at least interpreted, to take into account the unique aspects of each set.

For example: I think durability of the pet makes a big difference in some situations, but it really depends on how much control you can put out, too. Both Earth and Gravity have very durable pets while other sets have more fragile pets. Gravity has weak AoE control while Earth has strong AoE control. If you choose foes who, for example, resist AoE Immob (like wolves), then Earth has a big advantage for having other types of AoE control. Wolves resist AoE Immob and Slow, but will be controlled by Stuns, Holds and knockdown. Earth has Slow, Stun, Hold and Knockdown, with the Slow, Hold and Knockdown being continuous patches, while Grav has a one-shot hold and a one-shot Stun only if used with Wormhole. The secondary Slow effect from Gravity powers would have no effect on Wolves. But Earth's Quicksand adds a huge unresistable defense debuff, making it easier for Rocky to hit. On the other hand, Singy has Repel that keeps foes from being able to do damage.

On the other hand, Electric Control can put out a lot of continual control that can substantially increase the durability of the otherwise fragile Gremlins. Do you measure the durability of the pet alone, or do you include the full set's ability to use control to improve the survival of the pet? And if the latter, won't the player's ability have an effect?

This is just one small part of one aspect of one type of test which can call into question the results of the test. While testing has some value, the danger is that people will make decisions only based upon those tests.

And this is another reason I like controllers . . . this level of complexity. For ranged sets, for example, you get get a quick and medium blast. Then most sets have a higher damage shorter range blast. Then a cone. There is a variety on the AoE damage

Illusion has spectral damage, and if you fail to allow for that in the design of the test, then Illusion will come out lower than it should. Earth's Defense Debuff will make it better against tougher foes who are harder to hit. Each set has strengths and weaknesses that must be considered in designing tests and interpreting them.

Bonfire is a situational power . . . but you can creatively find lots of uses. You should only use it once in a while, but it is really nice to have at times. It works as a barrier, a repel and as a damage power.

Is there a spot that you want to keep foes away (like the Reactor in the respec trial or the towers in the MLTF)? Bonfire. Do you want to keep foes locked in a room? Bonfire in the doorway. Do you have some squishy teammates with ranged attacks who prefer to stay out of melee, but find it hard to fly out of melee when in hallways and caves? Bonfire, and they can stand in the middle. Anytime you have an AV with knockback protection? Bonfire chips away at his health while keeping lower level foes away, letting you defeat the AV while ignoring the others. Are you and your team being overwhelmed by a huge ambush? Bonfire to let you all catch your breath.

Of course, if you have enough slots to slot it up for damage, you can spam Fire Cages and throw Bonfire in the middle of the group to burn them up from range. However, Fire Cages does and will miss foes on occation, sending one or two flying back once in a while.

Bonfire is certainly not an essential power. I have teamed with folks who love it so much they use it for every group . . . and I spent my time cursing the jerk. It should only be used in the right situations, but it can be a kind of additional control on an otherwise control-light set. I would much, much rather skip Smoke than Bonfire, personally. I like Bonfire, and I find it a kind of challenge to look for more situations where the power is useful.

However, if you don't "buy into it" as a fun toy to play with, then you will probably be better off skipping it.

I made a few changes to your build. I think I improved its endurance use and recovery, defintely increased the Regen and got your Recharge a little higher to get your PA recharge just under 60 seconds.

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.957
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 50 Technology Controller
Primary Power Set: Illusion Control
Secondary Power Set: Cold Domination
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Leaping
Ancillary Pool: Ice Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Spectral Wounds -- Decim-Build%(A), HO:Nucle(15), Decim-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(40), Decim-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(40), Decim-Dmg/Rchg(43), Decim-Acc/Dmg(45)
Level 1: Infrigidate -- Acc-I(A), Achilles-ResDeb%(37)
Level 2: Ice Shield -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(3)
Level 4: Blind -- BasGaze-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(A), BasGaze-Acc/Hold(5), BasGaze-Acc/Rchg(5), BasGaze-Rchg/Hold(11), HO:Perox(13), Dmg-I(13)
Level 6: Deceive -- CoPers-Conf%(A), CoPers-Conf(7), CoPers-Conf/Rchg(7), CoPers-Acc/Conf/Rchg(9), CoPers-Acc/Rchg(11)
Level 8: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(9)
Level 10: Super Speed -- Zephyr-ResKB(A)
Level 12: Group Invisibility -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 14: Glacial Shield -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(15)
Level 16: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(17), RedFtn-EndRdx/Rchg(17), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(36), RedFtn-Def(37), RedFtn-EndRdx(46)
Level 18: Phantom Army -- ExRmnt-Acc/Rchg(A), ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(19), ExRmnt-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(19), ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg(34), S'bndAl-Dmg/Rchg(34), S'bndAl-Acc/Rchg(37)
Level 20: Arctic Fog -- RedFtn-EndRdx(A), RedFtn-Def(21), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(21), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(23), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(23), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(50)
Level 22: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 24: Flash -- UbrkCons-EndRdx/Hold(A), UbrkCons-Hold(25), UbrkCons-Hold/Rchg(25), UbrkCons-Acc/Hold/Rchg(31), UbrkCons-Acc/Rchg(46)
Level 26: Spectral Terror -- WotController-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear(A), WotController-Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/Rchg(27), WotController-Rchg/Dam%(27), WotController-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/EndRdx/Rchg(31), WotController-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/EndRdx(31)
Level 28: Benumb -- Acc-I(A), RechRdx-I(29), RechRdx-I(29)
Level 30: Snow Storm -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 32: Phantasm -- ExRmnt-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(A), ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg(33), ExRmnt-Dmg/EndRdx(33), ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33)
Level 35: Sleet -- Posi-Dam%(A), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(36), Posi-Acc/Dmg(36), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(43), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(46)
Level 38: Heat Loss -- Efficacy-EndMod/Acc/Rchg(A), Efficacy-Acc/Rchg(39), Efficacy-EndMod/Rchg(39), Efficacy-EndMod(39), Efficacy-EndMod/EndRdx(40), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc(50)
Level 41: Ice Blast -- Decim-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(A), Decim-Dmg/EndRdx(42), Decim-Dmg/Rchg(42), Decim-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(42), Decim-Acc/Dmg(43)
Level 44: Frozen Armor -- LkGmblr-Def(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(45), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(45)
Level 47: Ice Storm -- Ragnrk-Dmg/EndRdx(A), Ragnrk-Dmg(48), Ragnrk-Dmg/Rchg(48), Ragnrk-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(48), Ragnrk-Acc/Rchg(50)
Level 49: Hibernate -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Containment
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Mrcl-Rcvry+(A), Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(3)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- P'Shift-End%(A), P'Shift-EndMod(34)
------------

Plant/Storm and Earth/Storm . . . heck, Grav/Storm, Ill/Storm, Ice/Storm and Dark/Storm too. I have all but the Dark/Storm at 50. Storm is just a lot of fun. However, it takes some understanding and practice to play the set well. A badly played Storm will be cursed by teammates.

The only really bad power in Storm is the only one you can't skip, Gale (and even that can have some uses). Opinions vary on O2 Boost and Snow Storm. O2 Boost is a somewhat weak single target heal with some nice secondary effects (Stun and Sleep and Endurance Drain protection), while Snow Storm is a foe-anchored toggle with AoE Slow, -Recharge and -Fly. Both can be useful powers depending upon your primary and playstyle. Thunderclap can be skippable if you do not have a stun power in your primary or you want to stay mostly at range -- it is only mag 2 and PB AoE, but it looks cool. Thunderclap is very nice to have when you can stack it with another stun, however. (I expect it to be a key power for my Dark/Storm.) I would NOT skip Hurricane on any Stormie. It gives you a great positioning tool with a huge ToHit Debuff, and you can turn it on and off whenever you want.

Without an AoE -Knockback power, Tornado can cause a lot of chaos. On the other hand, an AUTOHIT damage power can be mighty handy. Storm lacks any -Regen, but the DoT from Tornado can mostly replace the -Regen from other sets.

As for Primaries if you like doing damage, I suggest trying a Plant/Storm. Plant provides nice AoE damage and control. Storm's last two powers provide some good single target damage. Spore Burst is skippable. Entangle may be skippable on a mostly team build. Spirit Tree is optional, but since you don't have a self-heal, it can help with a large regen buff. Don't skip Hurricane, as you can use it to push foes into a tight group before hitting them with Seeds + Roots. (Learn to use Hurricane to run around the outside of groups to make them into a tighter group . . . this is called "herdicaning.") You can also learn to keep foes at the edge of your hurricane to debuff their to-hit while you are able to use your ranged attacks to damage and immobilize them . . . in effect, they can't hit you but you can hit them. That ToHit Debuff helps you avoid the need for Defense.

On my Plant/Storm, I skipped Spore Burst and Thunderclap, but kept O2 Boost and Snow Storm. An AoE Immob+ToHit Debuff (Hurricane)+-Recharge(Snow Storm) is almost like a continual hold.

I like to take Super Speed on on my Stormies, as Super Speed + Steamy Mist = Full invisibility, which is very handy. Super Speed is also great for "herdicaning." If you want, you could skip Spirit Tree and go for the Medicine Pool. Actually, there are lots of options on how to build depending upon your playstyle.

Stormies tend to be heavy users of endurance, so plan on getting a Miracle +Recovery at 20 and a Numina +Regen/+Recovery at 30. (One big complaint I have about Fire/Storm is that it is so Endurance heavy that is it almost unplayable in low levels.)

Of course, I always recommend Ill/Rad. If you are interested in that, I strongly recommend you take a look at my Ill/Rad guide, link below. But you just did an Ill/Dark, so I assume you want something different.

One of the reasons I like Controllers so much is that they have a widely varied gameplay. Each set has something different about it which results in a different game experience. All of the sets have a single target hold and an AoE hold of some kind, but even those AoE holds vary widely from PB AoE (Flash, Cinders and Glacier) to Targetted AoE one-shots (Total Dom, Paralyzing Blast, GDF, Vines) to Targetted AoE patches (Volcanic Gasses and Shadow Field). Other than that, it is fairly open. Two out of nine have no Immobilize. Two of the seven with AoE Immobilize do not have -Knockback. Some have mostly single target damage and lack AoE damage, while others have AoE damage and lack single target . . . and a few generally lack damage at all.

The problem I see with most testing is that you will have to either come up with (a) one test that is equally fair to the wide range if diverse sets, or (b) you will have to do a bunch of different types of tests designed to show the strength and weakness of each set without regard to playstyle or secondary. The only way to make (a) work is large-scale data mining. So your only choice is (b), and then the problem is how do you analyze the results of diverse tests compared to actual game play?

The third way is pretty much what I did . . . rank the sets based upon the opinions of players who are experienced with the sets. While individual opinions may vary, when you combine a large enough sample of opinions, that can be a pretty good measure of real game performance.

I'm happy to help. Ill/TA is a fun build, but a somewhat unique playstyle. I found that I relied upon PA and Spooky much more than with my other Illusion builds, and Phantasm actually acted more as a bodygard than a contributor to damage . . . his knockback keeps foes away from me.

Once you start looking at a serious IO build, you have some interesting decisions: Do you focus more on Recharge or Ranged Defense? I'm a bit of an Illusion purist, so I prefer Recharge to aim towards Perma-PA or close to it. But I can see someone wanting to have high ranged Defense and then as much Recharge as possible. You may have to drop the medicine pool to fit in Maneuvers or other defensive powers.

Honestly, I haven't fully IO'ed out my Ill/TA. I have about 36 level 50 characters, and I can't IO out all of them. (I'm not into farming, as I find it boring. I also find marketeering somewhat tedious -- I did once get a character up to the 2 bil cap, but it wasn't something that I enjoy on a regular basis.) I've added a few sets here and there. Mine has the Fortunata set and the Coercive Persuasion set, but not all the other stuff I need. He's not on my main server, so the characters over on my secondary server don't get as much attention.

My Ill/Cold uses the Ice APP. Part of this is concept, since he gives everyone else Ice shields, he should have one himself. (I wanted a name that reflected both powersets, so I named him "Florida Snowman." Since Florida doesn't get snow, a snowman in Florida must be an Illusion . . . )

Ice Blast is also great for the Blind-SW-Blast-SW attack chain, and Hibernate works as an emergency heal -- Hibernate has saved my tail many, many times. I use Frost Breath for his AoE damage, since it recharges quickly. You can build for "some" defense so that one or two purple Insps will cap your defense. The Agility Alpha works great for Ill/Cold, since it buffs Recharge, Defense AND EndMod (for Heat Loss).

But to me, Perma PA is far more important. Having a small gap allows the foes to focus on you, so you want PA recharging in under 60 seconds. I'll only worry about Defense after I have enough Recharge.

Yes, it is expensive to get all that Recharge. I get most of my Luck of the Gamblers from Hero Merits, so those are cheap. Fortunately, Ill/Cold has lots of places for LotG Recharge -- 1 or 2 in the primary (I skipped one of the invisibilities), 3 in the secondary, and one in Combat Jumping or Hover.

Code:

| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------|
|MxDz;1449;555;1110;HEX;|
|78DA6D944B6FD3401485673C4E93D8491B37F4450881943E486948047B04E521242|
|255827D14A56EB16AC595EDF4C18E5F02A8141648FC331E4B76E62673A689ED58B2|
|3ECFB9F7DCB99E19BB73FEBCF0F3D5C7278C97F6DC5E1074F7BC41E87BAE6BFB994|
|EEFC8E9B3D195A57B7D125149CDD7AE3B0C1C6FA084CA54CEB3E1E161F39DEFF48F|
|BB4F7DDF3B63C6BE4796B727B67D608E1F5FBACED1FBB0387EEED8074EDF19D8051|
|971C2811D04D68B13A74F03DFEE767A4168FB17ABD4C806DD9F39C31565C6D005D3|
|4CC9394B3227244BE04DE8FEC4CB94F713691CF5B8AA079F9EE05D2BCE2F6410F00|
|A16EFE1B616CFBD8778232B199257BE40C433C831C04B8A65C7CD445A16F939B00D|
|0E299E977E91476D03EB50523D40AF93C7443D13B1428226E514B13645CC91272E4|
|05BF847A8EAEC8AEA5878670BF517459C37AC3897A19F91B72CBD7A19DEE54C7C8F|
|54CF0D8CABD4C3127A5832A456236D05EFBE026D5511BE2D8CBFD19C6B32575B43E|
|D760E44EE39E554905381764B116B714A3955EC571575B690F39D6235F45343EC8E|
|98CD0BCAAD63FDEAD0D693546726C10F5C7E03A3793630CF26F67CD38AF3926A6D6|
|39E6DE4DE17B3A9D67A17FC4AFA0EF66907DE07623695E78AC64D79C644136BF670|
|71367FD0416B614F5B6A9DF5A96F33A26B74D894123552D1564A69A7944729E5714|
|A799352F6F5EB3F02E3E82E5FBAFED2A35F74B23847BC2CE37F269AC68DF809DC05|
|7F4FFBE6A5F677DA3727B5F904FF03D661A4AA|
|-------------------------------------------------------------------|

I have tried taking it twice, on my Dark/Electric Defender and then again on my Thugs/Dark MM. I really tried to like it . . . I really did. But both times I had to respec it out. I found it frustrating even when solo, and my teams hated it.

Many of the sets have a klunker power that is easily skippable. Powers like AoE sleeps, or powers that are counter-productive to the main goal of the set (like Repel for Kinetics), or are duplicative (SI and GI in Illusion), or provide a minimal benefit (Permafrost for Ice Armor). Most of them have more use than Black Hole.

I have to commend you for making some good points. This is an example of where discussions can get fun. But here's where simply looking at the numbers might be leading you to the wrong conclusion.

(1) I have long recommended for Illusion controllers to take out minions and lieutenants first, which will both allow them to take advantage of Spectral Damage and help concentrate the attention of the pets. So, if we are talking about a minion, an Illusion controller can take one out usually with Blind-SW-Blast, or maybe Blind-SW-Blast-SW. At that point, the full attack chain is up for the next foe, where Containment must be set first. Gravity can also take a minion out with an attack chain of GD-Lift-Propel (which is usually excessive since the minion doesn't have much health left after GD and Lift, but Propel still takes a while to animate). Gravity takes longer to take out that minion than Illusion does, because GD, Lift and Propel all have longer animations.

Lieutenants may take 1.5 attack chains, but it is still pretty fast. That faster secondary chain you showed for Gravity only works for big, tough foes and ONLY if you got Containment in one shot. Foes who live beyond one attack chain will usually be Boss level or higher, who will probably need more than one shot of GD to set containment. Of course Crush will do it, but you have to add in that animation time.

(2) By taking out low level foes, you get 4-5 pets focusing on only the toughest foes. I have found that you can overcome the random nature of pets by giving them no choice.

(3) An important part of completing missions is being able to focus on damage and not protecting yourself. Singy can only handle attacking one at a time, but it can tank several, assuming they are all in a group or fairly near each other. However, the only pet(s) better than Singy to tank is clearly Phantom Army, and they can spread out (if needed) to distract multiple foes who may be spread out.

(4) Take the numbers in Mid's with a grain of salt. I don't think Mid's incorporates Spectral Damage. Additionally, you get Spectral damage from PA and Phanty's Decoy. I agree that Lift+Propel will do more damage, but that extra damage may be wasted on low level foes. It is also Smashing Damage, which is more highly resisted than Psi (except for robots).

While testing has some value, it also has a significant trap of failing to take into account some of the actual situations in game. Anytime you create a controlled situation to focus or concentrate on one aspect, you will probably be distorting the results.

Testing certainly can be useful, but the danger lies in making conclusions based upon testing that fails to take all scenarios into account. The testing the MagicJ did HERE is a perfect example. When I pointed out a problem with his testing method which, I felt, skewed the results, MagicJ trivialized my criticisms when others felt they had some validity.

I would agree that Gravity has improved with the changes and you make some good arguments. I have a Grav/Storm, and the little bit that I have played him has shown me that he is better (and more fun) to play with the improvements. (I love the change to Wormhole!)

While Illusion does not have an AoE containment setter other than Flash, it has a total of 5 pets, 4 of which cannot be killed. (Don't forget that Phanty has his own Decoy.) These pets more than make up for the lack of AoE Containment.

Another weakness Gravity has compared to Illusion is the time it takes for its single target attack chain. Illusion's Blind-SW-Blast-SW is very fast, while even with the changes, Gravity's GD-Lift-Propel-Blast or throw in Crush whereever you want attack chain is much slower. Also, GD-Lift-Propel tends to waste some damage on low level foes.

That's my opinion, at least, based only on observation and no testing.

Illusion only has Flash to set AoE containment, but it doesn't have a AoE damage power in the control set. All you need is Blind for setting Containment since your damage depends on pets and your single target attack chain. That AoE containment would be nice when you hit the APP levels, but I suspect that the overall damage from Phantasm and the Phantom Army offset the lack of Containment for the APP blast.

Once Illusion gets that fast attack chain of Blind-SW-APP Blast-SW, it really wipes out low level foes one-by-one remarkably fast thanks to Spectral Damage. Then you and the pets can focus on the tougher guys.

I know that I have tried to use Flash to set AoE Containment as often as possible before using Fireball, and found that it wasn't worth the time to run in, Flash, then hit Fireball. I felt it was better just to stay at range with my single target attack chain and throw in a Fireball whever there was a group and Fireball was up.

Your questions are one of the reasons I thought this could be a fun debate. Also why it is hard to measure. To me, the best "measure" of overall damage is a set's ability to complete missions quickly and fairly safely. That takes all of the scenarios into account. However, it will also vary widely depending upon playstyle and secondary. Also, the value of damage done by a controller on a team is quite a bit different than solo. Single target damage becomes more imporant on teams that already have a lot of AoE.

"Testing," while easier to measure results, ends up with distorted results. MagicJ did some testing a while ago (Issue 14), but I had some significant issues with his testing methods. The Devs get their information from datamining, which certainly provides better information than what we, as players, have.

As for Mind: It has one AoE damage power pre APP levels. You can set Containment for that one power with Mass Hypnosis unless you have a not-so-helpful team that uses a lot of AoEs. For the single target attack chain, you have two powers that set Containment for Lift. If Dominate misses, then Mez can set Containment. But overall, I agree that the damage on Mind doesn't get that nice bump-up at level 32 the way other controllers with pets do. So maybe it should drop below Dark.

oops . . . You are correct, sir. I have a Dark/Dark, and I keep confusing which power is in which set. I'm also working on a Dark/Storm, who hit 24 last night.

Oh, I'm not suggesting that being softcapped is in any way bad . . . Yes, you will survive longer. I'm just saying that it is my personal preference to build my controllers without all of that defense because I find it more of a challenge. I have tanks and scrappers and brutes who are softcapped and more, and they are very tough. I even have one or two of my many controllers who are built with an eye towards defense.

Both of my level 50 Fire/Rads (they are on different servers) still have the Psi Pool for APP because when I made them, Indomidible Will was the only choice for mez protection. A defensive shield wasn't available unless I wanted to give up my mez protection. My version of "defense" was to use a lot of control, and when that doesn't work . . . run away and heal. And yes, sometimes it didn't work and I would taste a little bit of flooring. Oh, well. That's what made surviving much more fun. It's not like debt actually means anything anymore.