Leo_G
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And a Brute *still* can't do what a Stalker can.
I won't claim that Stalkers are better than Brutes, but it's not as cut and dry as you put it.
I love my Claws/EA brute to death, but that stealth can be a curse in some situations. If it weren't for Shockwave (something your DM/EA doesn't have), I wouldn't stand a chance keeping an NPC alive solo...and believe me, I've fail quite a few missions because mobs don't even know I'm there. Now on teams? Yeah, Brutes aren't Tankers, but they are viable 'tanks'. On a team where aggro isn't an issue, Energy Aura is awesome but it isn't without its faults.
...not to mention, I *still* feel the lack of burst damage when I play Brutes. Yeah, they'll tear through masses with AoEs and put a constant pounding on those EBs, but when you want to drop a target *now*?
Now, when Scrappers get EA's unsuppressed stealth, *then* I'd say we really have something to worry about... -
Not that I'm particularly interested in the concept itself, but this can't be a Stalker defensive set why?
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Quote:The point being you can't bump an old thread or else it'll get locked. However, there is no rule about reposting a topic several months old.Originally Posted by DarkGob
Pretty sure reposting the same thread over and over again is just as spammy as resurrecting old ones.
You could stop posting in it so it doesn't get bumped again, tho. -
Quote:You can't bumb old threads so what's your point?Originally Posted by DarkGob
This is the second time you've made this thread, FYI.
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Quote:This is something people keep mistaking. Stealth doesn't give a guaranteed critical, the 'Hidden Status' does which is linked to a mechanic called kmeter. Look up Hide, the Stealth pool power and Placate. Notice how 2 of those give a +1 meter to self (Hint: it's not the Stealth pool or *any* other powers in the game except Frenzy).Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
... except for a few things:
1. That stealth gives a guaranteed crit to most attacks, and a massive damage boost to Assassin's Strike,
As for Hide costing no endurance, consider it equality for what the AT gives up in exchange (Quick Recovery, Resist Passive, and the like) for a power integral to the AT.
The other things have zero bearing on the Hide power or balance regarding unsuppressed stealth radius on Stalkers.
And just to point out preemptively, all the effects of Hide (and many other powers) can be altered and affected separately, i.e. the +defense that Hide grants is not linked to 'stealth' and suppresses by itself if attacking or hit, the kmeter is not linked to the defense, stealth *or* the power Hide, at all and is simply a buff granted by hide and placate which suppresses on its own too, that AS doesn't drop hide is linked to AS not alerting the foe on a miss and not the power Hide or any of the effects that toggle grant, etc.
That said, now where do you guys stand on the proposal? -
You been playing Stalkers lately, Sam? Or maybe just teaming with a few
Quote:Not really true. Granted, Sam asking for Hide to provide perfect invisibility and never suppress is kind of ludicrous, it wouldn't really unbalance the AT besides giving them the freedom to fight while foes are nearby.Originally Posted by Rodion
The simplest answer is that stalkers (and Widows) get an automatic critical when attacking out of stealth. The mobs can even be aware of you and you still get the critical, and long as you're still hidden.
There would have to be a tradeoff. If you want your stealth to remain in place, you'd have to give up the automatic critical out of stealth. It's really that simple because otherwise stalkers are totally unbalanced.
Back to the OP's suggestion, no, Hide *should* suppress. It's too good not to. However, if a *portion* of Hide suppressed while the rest remained, I can see that being more fair.
I'd suggest something like:
Hide-
+100 StealthRadius for 0.75s
Effect does not stack from same caster
Suppressed when Attacked, for 8 seconds (Always)
Suppressed when Damaged, for 8 seconds (Always)
Suppressed when MissionObjectClick, for 8 seconds (Always)
+50 StealthRadius for 0.75s
Effect does not stack from same caster
Suppressed when MissionObjectClick, for 10 seconds (Always)
Basically, it has 2 layers of stacking stealth, one that never suppresses (unless you click a glowie) and the other that suppresses when you attack/are attacked/click a glowie.
I'd suggest it be a bit longer range than the range of powers like Cloak of Darkness, only because sometimes, as a Stalker, you want to try and grab the aggro of nearby foes in a spawn, just not things outside that spawn...
Another point not hit on is
Hide- Translucency +0.15 for 0.75s [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs]
Effect does not stack from same caster
Suppressed when Attacked, for 8 seconds (Always)
Suppressed when Damaged, for 8 seconds (Always)
Suppressed when MissionObjectClick, for 8 seconds (Always)
and
Energy Cloak Translucency +0.1 for 120s [Non-resistable]
If we're going to be making unsuppressed stealth in Hide, I'd like it if the translucence still suppressed like it does now (so I can still see my character in combat) as well as suppressing the translucence of EC so I can see my EA brute mid combat. This suggestion is purely cosmetic and has no affect on balance but it'd be nice to have the chance to see characters through their unsuppressing stealth. Not sure about Cloak of Darkness (as I only have a DA stalker currently) but redtomax says that power doesn't grant translucency so not sure... -
Quote:Again, not going to waste time quibbling with you, doc. But try to reply to the main stuff.Originally Posted by docbuzzard
Now I certainly grant that in your select case that someone with resistance who ends up on a team with a large pile of defense buffing that is consistent will be somewhat superior to a softcapped defense build. I do, however, note that it is moot and not really relevant to a discussion of the comparative strengths of the sets since it relies on external factors.
I never came in here saying softcapped defense is inferior to resistance or mixed mitigation. No, having softcapped defense is great for anyone and, relatively, it's *easy* to softcap that than it is to get a sizable amount of resistance or other mitigation values. In that respect, someone with high values in mitigation other than defense 'win out' ('win out' meaning pushing performance at the very edge) because defense (and -ToHit) is so common. Because if you're at the edge of performance, popping lots of lucks is nice but you'll need greens for when those hits inevitably get through. Popping some lucks and ruggeds to stack with a moderate portion of resistance on your side is *better* in that you probably need fewer greens.
Now have both characters pop a luck and a rugged (something easily obtainable and accessible in those rough spots). Your SR Brute is already softcapped and gets a moderate bonus to resistance while your Fire Brute is now defense capped with even more resistance put toward that cap (plus those extras like extra damage).Quote:Since, as you say, there is tons of defense buffs floating around out there (manuevers, Fortitude, bubblers, ice shields, SoAs) then the defense builds will easily get softcapped. For example an SR brute without even weave can be softcapped easily by only 15% defense. A single crab or bane can do that. The brute then gets a reduction in incoming damage from 40% to 10%. That's a 75% reduction. Mr FA brute to his left on the same team with the SoA gets a whole 30% reduction in his incoming damage. He starts out before the buff taking 65% of the damage, which goes down to 45% of incoming damage(over four times as much). Not bad, but not even close to the defense build.
The point is, IMO regarding fairness of distribution of resistance vs defense, I think the balance is there. Those sets with great amount of defense already are easier to cap while sets with great amounts of resistance cannot (or without a lot of sacrifice) at least not without help. However, I guess saying that, it might be unfair that non-defensive sets can cap defense and keep all their benefits (like END management or damage) while those defense focused sets only get the benefit of 'ease to cap'.
In short, doc, check your reading comprehension. I'm not claiming softcapped defense loses, just softcapped defense is obtainable while capped resists aren't often (or never outside of stacked buffs). -
Quote:Don't got the time to quibble about every point, but I'll comment on this.Originally Posted by docbuzzard
Teams are the only place where extreme survivability matters? Didn't you notice that difficulty slider? Did you miss that? I can set my missions to match team opposition by myself. That is the real measure of when the rubber meets the road on who is better protected.
Though hell, on your above team with a bubbler, an emp and a dark, a blaster could tank just fine. What a puerile example.
The game should not, is not and will not be balanced on the difficulty slider being put to maximum solo. So did I miss that point? No, but I'm not shortsighted enough to think it is *the* point to be made here.
Secondly, that a blaster, a dom or whoever is tanking for this team is moot because the OP is talking about 'resistance' and 'defense', not 'armor sets'. The point wasn't who got maximum benefit but that defense (and -ToHit) is far more common than resistance. So even if you bring your 'whatever AT' with 25% def and 50% resist vs your 45% def character, the one with resistance will always be on top because teamed, both with have the enemy's hit chance floored more often than not. -
Quote:I don't think the examples you brought up with the resist sets really helps the argument because, in the realm of defense sets, there are holes too. You can't hold up SR as 'defense sets' and forget Ice Armor and Energy Armor have no defense to toxic because such defense doesn't exist or how they lack psi defense and how Shield Defense is pretty much the defense equivalent of Fire Armor with lower defense numbers.Originally Posted by docbuzzard
This might be true if there were a resistance set which provided universal protection. Of course such a set doesn't actually exist. It would also require that the relative performances were comparable.
Let's look at the resistance sets:
Back to topic, I would say there's a disparity if I were just looking at this from an Armor set PoV and adding up the values on paper...but that's not how the game plays.
While the resistance buffs and bonuses might look ineffective in that light, it tends to the actual balance it strikes. Defense is common therefore seems more effective and resistance is rare therefore not as effective...until resistance uses defense to leverage an overall better amount of mitigation.
On teams, the only place where extreme survivability really matters, defense buffs are extremely common but accumulated buffs only have an effect up to a point. So someone with lots of defense jumps on a team with Fortitude buffing Empaths, a FF user, 3 maneuvers and a Dark Miasma user? Compare that to resistance sets teaming together and using the same 3 maneuvers?
Same with set bonuses. If we could accomplish high amounts of resistance bonuses on defense type sets, and I'd side with you, OP, about the questions you ask. But neither defense or resistance should be examined only vs eachother when mixed mitigation is what actually wins. -
Quote:Thematically? Lil Slugger is his name.Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
A Stalker with a Mace may seem odd, granted, but I'd look at it in the same light as a thug with a black jack.
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Quote:Well of course you'd still draw aggro, they are still your DPS attacks. But they'd only draw that aggro from the single target you're attacking, so if you can keep the target occupied while using these powers(the set could have secondary effects to aid this like slow or Knockdown) you might go back into hide while fighting.Originally Posted by Beelzy
And Leo_G, the problem with pseudo-pets is that while it would not cause you to leave hide, since they would not be targettable they would grab a lot of aggro for you...
The issues of such a suggestion I can plainly see:
-There's no way to summon pesudo-pets through regular attacking that wouldn't result in being a direct assault itself.
-Would hinge on the user of the set to use only the set's powers (no pool attacks and holding off on using patrons).
-Wouldn't mesh well with sets using auras (kind of pointless to have an attacking set that won't suppress hide when you've got a secondary that does that for you). -
Quote:Well, while Dual Pistols does have a mechanic to switch its KB for other effects, I wouldn't really equate DP's KB to Energy Blasts'. Most of the powers don't even knock a foe back...it's really only Bullet Rain, Dual Wield and Executioner's Shot. That you can switch the effect of those for other effects isn't comparable to shutting down the only extra effect of an entire set.Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I don't feel that I've portrayed it as the sole purpose of Swap Ammo. It's a feature of that set that models a mechanic I wish Energy Blast had. It's relevant to this discussion because several people have said the ability to turn off knockback would wreck teaming. It didn't in Dual Pistols. They need to address this in their arguments; the main way it's been broached so far is to say "I've played Dual Pistols to 50." As I said a while back (regrettably, rather curtly) that statement is confusing in light of adamant opposition to the very mechanic Dual Pistol provides.
Why don't people get up in arms about forcing DP users to use other ammos? Because it doesn't make a huge impact one way or the other (there's not much KB to complain about and even if they still do, you're switching out one effect for another). As is, DP was *designed* to not hinge on that KB. Energy Blast without its KB?.... -
Quote:Oh, so some means of stopping the foe from firing an attack at you? Well in that case, it'd work like Brute's Fury? Well, AoE attacks would drop you from hide always. Afterall, AoEs are attacks and the game can't distinguish between a ST one and an AoE one which is why we don't have melee resistance and AoE resistance.Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
I don't think he means being targeted - he means being attacked. Being targeted is different than being attacked. In other words, if they attack and miss, then hide supresses. Since a roll is made to determine whether you're hit or not, that could well be something that can be flagged.
How would it favor ninjitsu? If just being targeted drops hide, then the only factor is stealth. Or do you mean that if targeting can't be a factor then it would default to being hit?
I'd be against that too.
And it'd favor Rogue sets, specifically Ninjutsu (and its toys) and Dark Armor (Feared/stunned foes can't attack). SR would have no means to stop foes from dropping them out of hide and poor Regen wouldn't even be able to get off AS mid combat if an attack will suppress hide 100%.
That said, I'm not saying the idea is *bad*, it's just not well thought out. With other changes, you could make such a suggestion work. But then you have to discuss if it would still feel like a Stalker and if the amount of change alienates current players/playstyles or not.
Right, turning placate into an AoE doesn't increase your ability to control aggro but it doesn't really decrease your control either...at least not by much. And even if it does, the point was does that lack of control make you less attractive to a team? What you could do with ST placate on teams, you can do with AoE placate primarily because of how much aggro a Stalker *doesn't* generate.Quote:This, right here, is what I'm on about. I do mean controlling damage. Turning it into an AoE doesn't increase that control. The reason originally stated for the change was survival - or, as you put it, controlling aggro - and you are quite right to say that it is an imperfect and clunky tool for that.
I'm not forgetting that it's cludged into an aggro-dropping power, I'm pointing that out.
About all the suggestion to make it an AoE power does is increase that kludginess by trying to shoehorn it into a role other than one for which it was best suited.
Honestly, Placate's ability to control aggro, in and of itself, lacks the actual 'control' part. The only real way to make it work is if Placate *suspended* aggro for its duration. That is, you use placate on a target(s), and all the threat gained by it(them) is held as a value but rendered inert for the duration of the power along with the ability for them not to be able to attack unless attacked. Once the duration of placate is over, all threat it gained is added to the suspended threat and it resumes its attack.
*That* is controlling aggro. What we do now could hardly be viewed as 'controlled' in any form except for the damage it enables. -
Quote:Although I think you seriously need to reevaluate your definition of selfish...I find it *HILARIOUS* that every point you bring up with that portion of your post is exactly the viewpoint I've been expressing the whole time.Originally Posted by Luminara
"Selfish" would be demanding a change to an entire powerset, which could affect tens of thousands of players, to satisfy a much smaller number of players.
"Selfish" is throwing a temper tantrum because you don't want to change targets or interrupt your mindless mashing of number keys to tap the W key.
"Selfish" is freaking out because a few foes were knocked out of your PBAoE, ignoring the fact that the end result is the same (defeated foes, safe team).
"Selfish" is forgetting that the team is just that, a team, not a tank/brute/scrapper and his/her entourage.
"Selfish" is expecting everyone else on the team to actively work to make you happy, rather than you trying to work with the team to find a satisfactory medium.
"Selfish" is getting angry about KB, but never doing anything to deal with the "problem", such as discussing it with the person doing the KB or looking for ways to deal with it yourself.
"would be demanding a change to an entire powerset, which could affect tens of thousands of players, to satisfy a much smaller number of players"
Yeah, the whole time I've been against the issue of the option to turn off KB or changing the set from a form that many players may find perfect the way it is.
"is throwing a temper tantrum because you don't want to change targets or interrupt your mindless mashing of number keys to tap the W key."Regarding KB, I have already argued that people need to get out of their little comfort zone and just *move*. It's not going to kill them to need to run 5-10ft to get a few more hits in.
"is freaking out because a few foes were knocked out of your PBAoE, ignoring the fact that the end result is the same (defeated foes, safe team)."Oh look, a group of huddled NPCs! I'll go run over and PBAoE them!
*smashes foes but some are still alive*
Wait! Don't knock them away! My PBAoE will recharge in just 8 more seconds! I wanted to do it again!
Leo_G: Do not fret, young player. AoE attacks are just the beginning. They are situational powers not meant to be spammed and mobs will not always be huddled for you. Worry not, you can spam your ST attacks, they aren't as situational.
"is forgetting that the team is just that, a team, not a tank/brute/scrapper and his/her entourage."Again, you can be the star of the show and carry the team on your shoulders if you want, but don't get prissy on the teams it doesn't happen. Let your team get a piece of the action, and not dictating how they should fight, expecting that your AoEs are the only thing that matters (at the expense of your KBing teammates' effectiveness).
"is expecting everyone else on the team to actively work to make you happy, rather than you trying to work with the team to find a satisfactory medium."And this forms my position on the subject as a whole. That I have to place my stance on the side of KB users yet at the same time agreeing that indiscriminate use of its AoE variants could pose a problem to some playstyles will make me look like a hypocrite.
I'd *love* it if people just instantly changed and everyone embraced KB so you can spam it and send foes to the four winds with impunity. But no one changes over night. So one should be mindful with such a strong weapon as KB. Mindful of your team, mindful of the situation and mindful of its limitations. Because, while I could be having fun KBing mass enemies with Gale, that Dark Melee scrapper might be biting his lip counting how many Soul Drains only hit 1 target. It's selfish for the Scrap to expect you to not every use your KB powers to appease him but its also selfish to impede his abilities so you can use your powers instead. A middle ground must be found and communication is key to finding it.
And just to be clear, when I'm speaking of efficiency of DPS and Single Target attacks and what not, I'm not advocating that because it's somehow 'superior' or 'min/max efficiency' or whatever. I'm simply putting that forward as a viable alternative to AoEs. It's hard enough to get a herding AoE-aholic out of their comfort zone nuking mass foes...talking about those ST attacks and their efficiency may make them more appealing, thereby making KB and its ability to move/position targets more appealing. Because not all people see how much mitigation throwing out that explosive blast (slotted for KB) then power pushing that annoying LT further so you can blast it in peace while waiting for the rest to get up. All they see is "My AoEs!! Ruined!!!!" Which can be true...but hey, ST is still deadly efficient! And the foes are practically helpless while you do it!
I won't comment on all the other stuff. The last thing I really want to do is *need* to keep up on a forum debate. I already got another one going and the two are starting to wear on my time.
Granted. When I said "and this is the direction the game would head", I was talking about the "no one needs to communicate in this game" part. That's fine, but as the game progresses in age, less need to communicate will ultimately shift to 'no need to communicate'. I wasn't speaking on the HP or difficulty of NPCs, just the communication and tactics would become so simplistic (is that even possible in this gameQuote:I pointed out that "we don't need five players beating on one enemy for ten minutes, coordinating efforts to ensure that we're following the scripted routine for the particular foe in question."
You responded with, "And this is the direction the game would head to if we could straight out turn off KB.", implying that the developers would increase enemy HP and design more gimmicky AI scripts in response to changing KB to KD. Your own comment just two paragraphs after that reinforced that you did not want to see enemy HP drastically increased and scripted routines which required multiple players executing precise actions with split-second timing.
My reply addressed that implied increase in HP and difficulty. So if there was a communication failure, it was at your end, not mine, and attacking me won't make it any clearer.) as to be non-existence. It'll just devolve into 'use AoE 1', 'use AoE 2', 'repeat'.
KB spices that up well and makes everyone safer. -
Quote:And that's what I'm getting at equating placate as some precise scalpel. As a means to control crits, it is a scalpel. As a means to control aggro, it is not.Originally Posted by Jibikao
All these "placate" talks...
I just want to have separate system:
1. One power that allows me delivery Critical
2. One power that allows me to lose aggro(s)
I do not want them to be combined together because sometimes I don't want to keep aggro on me (if I team with squishies and they are dying already) and sometimes I want to lose aggro on me (so I can setup Assassin Strike or run or whatnot).
But this is one point for the role 'Switches' I proposed. As an 'Assassin', placate wouldn't drop aggro or anything and would only enable you to critical strike (as well as making the placate power itself recharge much faster). As a 'Stalker', placate would be the same ST de-aggro/critical strike hybrid for when you need both. As the 'Saboteur', it'd primarily be a debuff tool as it'd have a mild AoE debuff and enable you to use AS which would have another stackable AoE debuff.
I'd enjoy building my stalkers to specialize in certain switches while building other stalkers to capitalize on them all. It's a dream change, yes, but this *is* a kind of dream-thread. -
Quote:Well, I'm not. Particularly, because it has been mentioned before that the game cannot distinguish if you're targeted or not. There is no 'you are being targeted' tag so that really just shoots the whole idea in the head.Originally Posted by Shred_Monkey
I think it's nearly unanimous that where stalkers are lacking is contributing to large teams. They have burst damage (but not great sustained damage) and they have low AoE. They can't tank (reletively speaking) and they don't have controls, buff, or debuffs.
That said, what conceptually they should is massive single target damage. So how do we make that into something that has them contribute to teams without destabilising everything else. They tried adding more criticals on a team, but I think that fall short. My proposal is simple. Go all the way with that concept. 100% critical out of hide... AND attacking doesn't break hide. Being the target of an attack breaks hide, but if you don't pick up any agro, you continue to string criticals non-stop. Placate is a power you use to shed agro and begin to crit again. Solo play would be essentually the same as now, but team play would be more about staying in a hidden state so you can maximize your damage output. At most you'd double your damage output from the current state... which in comparison with having AoEs vs Single Target I don't think the increase in damage would be too great. If it is, then keep this same mechanic and tweak down the critical damage amount of the powers (80% crit damage instead of 100 for example).
Seriously, this has been suggested before when people said breaking line of sight should rehide you (that is, an alternate thought for the suggestion was not being the target of the enemy to which someone (might have been a dev, can't remember) said the game couldn't do that).
Besides that, I'd hate how it'd favor certain sets (specifically Ninjutsu). And any request that makes my burst damage less bursty (that is, lowering my crit damage) I'm against. If anything, I want my attacks to crit for *more*.
Oh, and I don't think it'd work like you're imagining, Joe. Once you pop off an attack, the moment you draw the foe's attention, your hide drops. So it wouldn't so much be "Hey Joe, where's Tom? He was here a second ago...Joe?" because the instant you attack Tom, he'd turn to hit you. Even sometimes on 1-hit kills, the foe may try and get a brawl (that does no damage) off before flopping to the ground. Oh, and did we mention how aggro accumulates on teams? If your team is fighting and you happen to be around but doing nothing? Yeah, sometimes mobs will turn and hit the invisible guy. That's why you can't dolly around with your AS on teams. -
Quote:And the intended thing placate is meant to cut is aggro. So long as it remains auto-hit, it would be as precise in its use as ever.Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
It's a pretty obvious point to make that an AoE power can affect a single target just as effectively as a Single Target power can affect the same target. So what? No one is saying that making Placate AoE will diminish its effectiveness on a single target. Not sure where you got that notion.
And a scalpel cuts nothing but what it is intended to cut. So yeah, placate as an aoe does in fact mean it's no longer being wielded as a scalpel.
Again, what *I'm* saying is an AoE placate wouldn't make a Stalker any less popular on a team than it is now. No one invites one to a team to share aggro, and most seasoned players realize that when they are getting a Stalker, it's an AT not good at garnering hate, sometimes even dropping it completely. Really knowledgeable players will realize they work *best* under these circumstances and will facilitate that.
It's not counter-productive to making stalkers appealing to teams, more like non-productive as it really doesn't make them more or less attractive than they are. Why? Because Stalkers already don't get much aggro (most only having aggro of 1-2 targets for extended periods). So being able to drop that aggro wouldn't suddenly thrust the AT's role into counter-team productivity.
Hell, look at some of the people talking about 2-layer Hide with a portion of the stealth radius being unsuppressable. How is *that* not counter-productive in your eyes as it basically cuts your aggro generating abilities right out? The only way you could take an Alpha Strike for your team now is if you used an AoE attack (since Demoralize's effect doesn't draw attention) or using Taunt. And believe me, I've run up to spawns and started firing a stream of ST/AoE dmg on my Claws/EA brute and had the whole spawn but the targets I hit even notice I was there.
By the way, I do like the idea of some unsuppressed Stealth for Stalkers. It's great on my Brute with perhaps the only downfall being solo, he can't keep ally NPCs alive for beans.
I think we should clear this up though. How much aggro do you actually *get* on *normal* teams? Are you rocking half the spawn on your own? Because I only ever do that with my Spines/DA...and he's not so much aggroing them as he is leaving them shaking in their boots.Quote:What I've been saying is that it is counter-productive to the goal of making stalkers more appealing to teams for a stalker to have less aggro at the expense of other teammates.
The real Real *REEEEAL* issue, though, is how placate functions on small teams where we share aggro. In that situation, even as single target, the effect is a cludge to get extra damage. Either you're flaking off your share of aggro for extra damage or you're using a work-around to escape part of the power's effect.
If we're talking about flowery metaphors for placate, lets not ignore how imperfect it is. You talk about an 'artfully wielded scalpel' and how much control it gives our damage but forget it's cludged into a power that drops aggro onto others. The 'scalpel' part you seem to be talking about is the damage, not the aggro, which I'd agree. If you mean control over aggro, then Placate is a very imperfect and clunky tool for that. -
Quote:I don't see it.Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
You're really missing the point. Stalkers are about controlled damage. The ability to control your burst damage is what makes a stalker unique, but that ability goes hand in hand with being able to control your battles.
An AoE placate removes that control from one of your most essential tools, turning an artfully wielded scalpel into a ten pound sledge hammer.
An AoE placate is still an artfully wielded scalpel, it just has a wider range. In any situation you could use a ST placate, you can use a targeted AoE one. For what a Stalker wants to do (eliminate unsuspecting targets with high bursts of damage), that placate suddenly perplexes foes near the initial target doesn't somehow make the power clunky. For what you need to do, you don't need aggro to do it so having less aggro doesn't make it any less of a power.
It's only when you're trying to garner hate (not what the AT is for) does placate *at all* *AoE or ST* turn into a cludge tool for extra damage. -
Quote:Lol, look where we're back to...Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
And if you're responsibility in a shared aggro tactic is to soak up your share of the aggro, an AoE placate sort of works counter to that philosophy, don't you think? If you're placating every mob that's aggroed to you in order to get a guaranteed critical on a single mob, then aren't you acting irresponsibly?
Yeah, looking back at the 1st post I started talking about an AoE placate: "On team, the only time dropping aggro from multiple targets would be an issue is on a team that wants you to share aggro or tank."
But in the general sense, Stalkers just aren't good at sharing aggro to begin with. That was the main point I was trying to make with an AoE placate. It'd have its downfalls but not many more than a ST placate (the only real one being the above stated).
How is taking the alpha and assuring that you can do it reliably without death not an improvement on teams? Those non-armored allies don't have to do it. And most of the time, they don't have a way to recover from one if they do.Quote:And yes, the argument could be made that an aoe placate could be followed up with an aoe attack, but (1)not every stalker primary set has AoE capability, while an AoE placate would affect every set, and (2) let's remember why this was first asked for in this thread:
So - in an ongoing discussion across several threads over stalkers' performance on teams and desirability for teams - what's being ostensibly asked for is the ability to save your own skin at the expense of your team's.
The main point I want to make about Stalkers and aggro is, outside of specific powers like Cloak of Fear or Provoke (I guess a good deal of AoE dmg too), a Stalker isn't going to attract the attention of a lot of enemies outside of an alpha strike (or solo). Although, personally, I don't have issues with my Stalkers taking alphas for teams, if others have issues doing so (emphasis = *if*) then I could see an AoE placate being helpful for some team situations.
Solo, however, is another matter. An AoE "leave me alone for 20sec" is powerful. -
Quote:Clarification: "Whatever you're fighting you're aggroing" is a simplified definition of the 'shared aggro tactic'. On a team that is relying on shared aggro, your share is to divert the attention of a portion of the enemy away from other teammembers. Nothing to do with aggro or threat ratios. It's simply your goal to soak up your share of attention. Pulling out the threat equation is delving *far* too deep into the discussion considering damage (without taunt) will pull aggro easier than debuff powers (without taunt). But if the point of bringing it up is to debate that using an attack isn't enough to turn that Lt away from the squishy, that is what mitigation powers are for. Even when placated, these powers still nullify the target.Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Not true. The argument that "whatever you're fighting you're aggroing too" assumes that aggro is a 1:1 ratio. It isn't that simple, and damaging attacks aren't the aggro trump card.
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Quote:Well the concept of sharing aggro is mainly just 'fend for yourself'. That is, whatever you're fighting, you're aggroing too. Unless you're literally tanking for a team, dropping aggro from a group really isn't so big an issue unless we're talking duo teams. Unless we're talking about a defensless defender, I just don't see it being an issue. If Blasters could drop aggro from multi-targets, I doubt it'd be a big deal except that they'd be so much more safer.Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Maybe on higher population servers like Freedom or Virtue all teams are full teams of eight with every role covered, but for the rest of us there's more often than not no guarantee that there will be someone to tank. Not saying every team on other servers is a small team, mind - just that teams asking you to share aggro are more common than you appear to be implying.
Again, with or without AoE placate, depending on what your goal is, you can placate something *else* that's out of range. Or you can simply placate and quickly regain aggro with an attack. If the situation isn't dire enough for you to need to defeat the target already attacking you, the obvious solution is to simply go and attack the offending target first to gain aggro. This is faster and safer for the teammate you're trying to protect. At that point, *then* you can target something further away and placate it and take your pick which foe gets the shaft.Quote:Let's not get TOO specific. When I said "run over" it could just as easily have meant turning around. And the problem isn't the offending lt after the squishy. The problem is the lt you were formerly fighting. With a single target placate you can placate the lt attacking the squishy and still have the other lt's aggro on you. With an aoe placate they would both de-aggro from you and latch onto the squishy.
And in any case the point is that an aoe placate removes control you would otherwise have had.
If the enemies are an actual threat, just placate and hit the lt you were dealing with to defeat him quickly. Then aid your teammate. This is all ignoring any type of tricks you're capable of however. Simply using an AoE attack after placating both, knocking one back/up/down, stunning one, or fearing one (that goes through every primary) is actually the easiest solution of all. Then proceed to placate whichever you want and finish the job quickly.
Done and done. -
Support the Utility Belt power pool!
Tier 1 "Gadget Mastery": A passive +ToHit buff (like 3.5%) and resistance to ToHit debuffs. This is a passive that is there to help the use of temp powers a bit.
Tier 2 "Emergency Pack": Long rech click that mitigates the use of an inspiration use. So you click this power, then you can pop an inspiration but keep it in your tray! This power cannot be used if you have no inspirations.
Tier 3 "Utility Belt Storage": Select up to 3 temp powers that will become permanent powers in your tray. Careful, using 1 of your stored powers causes them all to recharge (they also share the same recharge time).
Tier 4 "Reconfigure Belt": Very Long recharge click that deletes a power from your utility belt slot. It also mitigates the use of any temp power that uses charges. A power deleted is completely destroyed and can only be used again if reobtained. Without this power, any stored powers in your belt are permanent until you respec. This opens up your options a bit.
I came up with this pool before craftable temp powers were introduced so it was mainly for powers picked up during missions. Each power is designed to be used with the other powers within the set but still usable by itself. -
Quote:Had a longer post but browser ate it.Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
If you're aggroing 12+ mobs when you AS a lt then you're running in to AS before the brute, tanker or MM (hereafter referred to as the "heavy"). If you're doing that, then you're doing it wrong, my friend. Running in first is just fine, but the proper time for an AS is NOT before the heavy grabs the aggro.
One of two things you can do:
1) If you open with your Tier 8/9 on a lt, you're then free to turn your attention to the boss - who should already be aggro'd onto the heavy - and placate/BU/AS for your second critical.
2) If you want to open with AS, then learn to time it so that the AS lands just after the heavy gets the aggro.
Note that in both of these situations the heavy already has the aggro, and the argument could be made that an AoE placate would do nothing that the heavy's taunt and punchvoke can't handle, but then you're limited to using placate only in situations where you're fighting next to the heavy.
Anyway, I think the basic premise of what I was going to say is; Placate doesn't reset aggro of the mob. It resets *your* aggro on the mob.
On team, the only time dropping aggro from multiple targets would be an issue is on a team that wants you to share aggro or tank. This is a possible situation for smaller teams made up of Blasters, Defenders/Corruptors or squishy Scrappers, but in most instances, no one expects it. Kind of like no one expects a Blaster to.
If Placate were to drop aggro from multiple targets on a team, if the target even is aggroing you, will simply go to whoever is next on its list.
Your solution doesn't match up with your argument. If the offending lt is the one after the squishy and you placate it, what's stopping you from doing the same with the AoE placate? I mean, if you have to 'run over' to it, the one you're fighting probably isn't in range of it. That is, if placate were AoE, I'd probably say the max you'd expect it to be is 15ft radius...Quote:Here, let me throw a circumstance right back into your court:
1) Squishie calls for help, and you notice a lieutenant is knocking him/her around.
2) You turn your back on the guy you're fighting and run over to kill the lt.
3) Placate is charged, so the most efficient way is to placate the offending lt and pwn him with a critical on your attack of choice, doing enough damage to - if not kill him outright - make him angry enough at you to save your teammate.
If placate were AoE, then your teammate would have had to suddenly deal with TWO lieutenants instead of one.
The solution I'd aim for (with or without an AoE placate) is use placate on a target not engaged with you, then kill *your* target first. Ever hear those directions on the plane about securing your breathing mask first before your child? I'd imagine its so you don't end up dead/injured with a child that's left to fend for themselves/stuck helping *you* stay alive (if they can even do that). If the situations dire, kill your target first. If it's not dire, you don't really need to use placate anyway...
Now I'm not arguing for an AoE placate, just saying it's only as limited as you allow it to be. But I'd love the choice to placate in an AoE or in a ST depending on the situation.Quote:Placate as it is can be used in a wide variety of circumstances over the course of a single battle (provided it's charged, of course). You don't have to limit its use to AS's follow-up. You can control your burst damage, so why waste all the controlled burst opportunities during the alpha? If you're only placating one guy, you're more than capable of mitigating the loss of aggro immediately, provided you don't try to AS him, and you're free to use it whenever you see the best opportunity.
An AoE placate would be very limited in its uses.
Dream Addition: 'Switches' which would change tactics depending on which you want to use. You can't switch on the fly, but only from 'True Hide' (i.e. after 8sec for it to unsuppress) and after the 'Switch' option recharges (which would be like Dual Pistol's swap ammo option but turning on one toggle 'activates' the others which take 30sec to recharge...oh, and they're inherent).
Saboteur = Slightly lowers critical damage (from 2x dmg to 1.75x dmg) but doubles the debuff and adds duration on a critical hit (so 2x the debuff and 150% the duration). Also replaces Demoralize with Sabotage which is a set specific debuff (mass -recover on Elec melee, -dmg on Kinetic Melee, *etc*...) which stacks with itself and other Stalkers. Also alters Placate into a Placate+AoE 'something' (maybe a debuff, a confuse or maybe just AoE placate...dunno)
Assassin = Increases critical damage (from 2x dmg to 2.25x dmg) and alters Placate to recharge much faster and turn it to an effect-less power (doesn't placate anything) but puts you in crit mode. You're basically clicking placate to focus your crit damage and not for personal protection (of course no ones opposed to a faster activating Placate). It's all about damage. This mode also disables Demoralize.
Stalker (no switch) = Same as now but adding a boost to BU depending on team size. Call it an 'Ambush' bonus that add a +% to base damage to your next attack.
Saboteur is the utility melee support mode. Assassin is the burst damage but weakened self/teamed mitigation. Stalker would be a mix of the two, a middle ground.
Sounds more like an EAT tho, but would still fit within their style, only veering slightly. -
Quote:Speaking of attacks that work while hidden, I'd imagine attacks that summon pseudo-pets would be such an attack.Originally Posted by Shadestorm
A bit late to the party, but officially /signed for psi melee. I want tintable mind-knives.
I like the suggestion that one of its attacks could work while hidden. Seems thematic for a psi melee stalker. Maybe have the ranged attack do no damage but a fear-equivalent sleep with bonus duration while hidden. Use the same head clutching sleep animation as the /nin blinding powder sleeps. Thus, you can run about driving people mad while hidden with your mind bullets. Effective pre emptive control without being overpowered. Very thematic. Begs for catchy /say macros.
The illusory AoE tier 9 is genius. The ability to hit someone so hard his friends feel it is pure comedy gold, and very thematic.
Thinking out loud, would it be possible to make a kind of single-target pseudo-pet type attack that summons an invisible pet by the target to initiate the attack instead? I'd imagine it's possible but no power does this currently.
Thinking how it'd play out, your weaker DPS powers (speaking the tier 1-3 (think Hack, Slash and Slice) and a mid tier power (think Parry)) wouldn't attack the enemy directly but through a pseudo-pet. Then have your heavy hitters (Disembowel and Headsplitter...maybe an AoE in there too) being direct attacks that critical hit. On paper, the set would be less effective for both Scraps and Stalks because your basic attacks don't crit, but that also comes with the side-effect of not resetting the k-meter timer. You're basically attacking while hide unsuppresses. When it's about to, queue a heavy hitter for its crit.
This is all just on paper...
Proliferated to Scrappers; Yeah, less chance to crit = not as hot as direct attacks.
Proliferated to Brutes; Yeah, fury kinda will cap the attacks because pseudo-pets use pet damage caps which are much lower than Brute's damage caps.
Proliferated to Tankers; Not sure. Do Pseudo-pets transfer their aggro to the caster? If so, I'd say Stalkers and Tankers would possibly get the better end of the deal with this.
Just thinking out loud... -
Quote:I guess I should have tried stating my argument with another word >_>Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
A "Slippery Slope" is a fallacy. Not a "fallacy" like internet people sometimes use it to mean simply "not true," but the actual name of a classical logical error.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/falla...ery-slope.html
But what I'm trying to say isn't a logical error. Players want to dictate the use of KB, they also want to dictate mobs running as well as raising target caps. While each change has its merits as QoL issues, it's just lining up the ducks in a row.
You think farming is kinda popular now? Or that some sets are downplayed as 'pretty but less effective'?
Well, it's still giving elitist mentality more of a foothold. You may not be siding with them and simply want to not KB things sometimes, but it's still helping them. This is why I'm not outright trashing on the idea and why I'm offering up other solutions. I don't want people to hate KB, this is why I proposed adding more enemies that might self-mitigate it or maybe where KB is 'good' in that situation.Quote:I'm going to leave the rest of the statement about elitism and the like alone because it's simply offensive.
EDIT: Ok that was a little too strongly worded. My point was supposed to be that in calling people who don't like knockback "elitists" or implying they are in league with them, you make it difficult to respond. I take responsibility for the way I originally worded it, so I'll leave it up. A little (maybe a lot) more discipline and proof reading before hitting the Post button would behoove me.
Is the issue so simple that we need to look for the easiest solution? IMO, even if the problem seems simple, just aiming for the theoretically easiest way to solve it might affect other things that may be harder to work around.